wc forms

[Katsu Jin Ken]

anyone know of any books/vids that explain each movement in the forms and the different applications for each? Im realitivaly new to the art. 2 years experience i know all the empty hand forms but dont yet completely understand just looking for someone different views other than mine or my sifu's

any help at all would be apprieciated,

[UKBBC]

Books and Vids by Randy Williams

[k gledhill]

try david petersons web site for articles , I have a few by wsl on mine....
dont lose sight of the system looking at 'applications' . the SLT is simply a correction form to make our elbows go inwards to acquire a certain forearm angle required to allow striking with the hand while using the forearm to deflect force 'like water off a ducks back'. The last sections deal with how to recover the basic strike idea, and basic concepts of delivering the perpetual attacking hand...
while shifting and angling like any free-fighter trying to gain an advantageous position over another. Using the chum kil ideas of angling to flank attackers....dont stand in the center of a guy attacking you putting arms up like a statue in a town square.
No book has the 'tactical' guidelines of the system , primarily due to the fact that many never reached a level of association with weapons and bare hands .
The downfall of the system is to assume the forms are so you can do chi sao. With no goal to develop 'through' chi-sao , you will fall into the 'I must stick to you to control you, well of ideas. Or become a 'hand chaser' to make contact with your abstract shape...rather than simply hit the guy in the head fast and hard :D that is VT , not sticky anything ;)
WE simply hit people with straight punches to the head in fast succession or low kicks...all we do is aimed at being able to maintain an attacking mind set as our defensive response to being attacked ourselves...we punch the punch ...
where and when is what the training gives you to make it instinctive, not stand like a circus performer with a 'magic moment' for every attack using the abstract shapes of the forms , like a 'kata-esque' rendition of ma's thinking in general.

To be Frank with you Bob :D you should know what your doing from day 1 ...a red flag should go up if you are here asking us after 2 years :cool: but you are and I have replied so hope it helps.
Any questions feel free to ask.

[KPM]

anyone know of any books/vids that explain each movement in the forms and the different applications for each? Im realitivaly new to the art. 2 years experience i know all the empty hand forms but dont yet completely understand just looking for someone different views other than mine or my sifu's

any help at all would be apprieciated,


There are lots of choice out there! Some better than others. I am not in any way associated with Benny Meng or the Moy Yat lineage, but I have his series of DVDs and they are very well done and at a good price. Check them out here:

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/benny-meng-wing-chun-dvd-ving-tsun-moy-yat-videos-s/103.htm


I also have these from the Wong Shun Leung lineage and can recommend them highly as well:

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/david-peterson-wing-chun-book-wong-shun-leung-videos-s/105.htm


If you want to go beyond just the sequence of the forms and their applications and get into learning good biomechanics and how to actually fight with Wing Chun, then these can't be beat! I consider these the best series of Wing Chun videos that I have in my current collection:

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/alan-orr-wing-chun-dvd-videos-books-hawkins-cheung-s/46.htm

Hope that helps!

[couch]

Everything KPM said...

I too enjoy the Benny Meng vids. I'm on the fence about a few concepts, but I'd say they're one of the best vids out there.

Also, I second the David Peterson DVD's: http://wslwingchun.resolvedesign.com/

And remember what Kevin said, too. The forms are to correct your position and structure. In my opinion, there are three things that make Wing Chun...well...Wing Chun: Centreline, Elbow and Stance. That's most important in my WC. So don't look for techniques, per se. You want to apply the key concepts of Wing Chun while chasing the centre and protecting your chin! :p

Best,
Kenton

[Phil Redmond]

Here's one on TWC: http://www.blackbeltmag.com/videos/56
Here is the newest one that shows applications to the forms:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/styles/wing_chun
This is the newest TWC DVD on Chum Kil
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/p/449288/traditional-wing-chun---chum-kil-form.html
It can be purchased from the link above or from Sifu Mazza's school in NJ

[Matrix]

Also, I second the David Peterson DVD's: http://wslwingchun.resolvedesign.com/ I'll add my vote to David Peterson's material. His Siu Nim Tau and Cham Kiu DVD's offer very detailed information on these forms. :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

Im realitivaly new to the art. 2 years experience i know all the empty hand forms but dont yet completely understand just looking for someone different views other than mine or my sifu's

Interesting.

I'd ask 'who is your Sifu'?

In other words, what forms are familiar to you? What family? This may play a vital role in your development, especially if you decide to 'pick'n'mix' from everyone here! ;)

I'd have to say leave the DVDs alone and just get on and practise with your Sifu and fellow chunners! If you're stuck, there's definately a problem.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i just bought Master Wing Chun by Sam Kwok, the forms are pretty much the same as ours with just a few subtle differences. My classmates all feel the same as i do. We feel stuck, skills arent improving.

[Matrix]

i just bought Master Wing Chun by Sam Kwok, the forms are pretty much the same as ours with just a few subtle differences. My classmates all feel the same as i do. We feel stuck, skills arent improving. The forms tend to look pretty much the same across the board. The point is more about understanding what you are doing and why. That's why I feel David Peterson's DVDs have something to offer. FYI, I am not associated with David Peterson in any way. I am from a different lineage but have respect for what he does.
Feeling like you're stuck is a fairly common feeling in any form of training. As you progress you tend to reach plateaus that seem to last for extended periods of time. The key is to keep training. You will improve. If you've read the book "Mastery" by George Leonard you will see how these plateaus manifest themselves and how you need to learn to enjoy those times.
I would also recommend connecting with other WC people from other lineages as well as your own. You are bound to come across ideas and concepts that challenge what you "know" and force you to go a little deeper into your understanding.
I don't know where you are in the US, but there are some good WC people out there. If you have an open mind you can discover a fresh point of view, or maybe just make your current understanding look fresh.

Peace,
Bill

[cobra]

I would recommend Sifu Gary Lam's videos, I have found all of his videos to be very informative. His skill, knowledge, and understanding is the best I've come across. http://garylamwingchun.com/products_and_services.html

[KPM]

I would recommend Sifu Gary Lam's videos, I have found all of his videos to be very informative. His skill, knowledge, and understanding is the best I've come across. http://garylamwingchun.com/products_and_services.html

Yes. I would second that recommendation as well! :)

[Tom Kagan]

My classmates all feel the same as i do. We feel stuck, skills arent improving.

I agree with Matrix. I have also found this perception to be very common in practitioners with the amount of experience you purport. Feeling as if you are on a plateau against the same training partners day in and day out does not necessarily mean your skills are not improving.

[monji112000]

anyone know of any books/vids that explain each movement in the forms and the different applications for each? Im realitivaly new to the art. 2 years experience i know all the empty hand forms but dont yet completely understand just looking for someone different views other than mine or my sifu's

any help at all would be apprieciated,

no book i know of does that, and really no video i know of..
you can't really learn much from books and videos.. you need someone to help you and teach you/guide you. Its that way for all martial arts.

[KPM]

no book i know of does that, and really no video i know of..
you can't really learn much from books and videos.. you need someone to help you and teach you/guide you. Its that way for all martial arts.

I disagree. You can learn a lot from books and videos. Especially if you have some background in the basics to build upon. But you still need someone to help and guide you. :)

[couch]

I disagree. You can learn a lot from books and videos. Especially if you have some background in the basics to build upon. But you still need someone to help and guide you. :)

I find this true as well. Sometimes, if it wasn't for a book or video I wouldn't have gained insight in a concept - even ones my Sifu was trying to get across to me.

If you have a good solid background in the art you are pursuing, you can take a video and make it yours. Some people may frown upon hearing, "I learned it from a video," but it depends on the person and their MA background. I find no shame in learning many things from videos and books (As I'm sure this is what the author intended).

Best,
K

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find this true as well. Sometimes, if it wasn't for a book or video I wouldn't have gained insight in a concept - even ones my Sifu was trying to get across to me.

If you have a good solid background in the art you are pursuing, you can take a video and make it yours. Some people may frown upon hearing, "I learned it from a video," but it depends on the person and their MA background. I find no shame in learning many things from videos and books (As I'm sure this is what the author intended).

Best,
K

I think that, if you have a partner(s) to train with, and/or you have a solid core in a related MA, you can actually do very well in learning a different MA from a video.
Of course I am refering to instructional series and not demo videos.
You certainly can pick up the basics of any system from them.

[couch]

I think that, if you have a partner(s) to train with, and/or you have a solid core in a related MA, you can actually do very well in learning a different MA from a video.
Of course I am refering to instructional series and not demo videos.
You certainly can pick up the basics of any system from them.

There's a few interviews around talking with UFC fighters who started with BJJ vids. They were killing their opponents in sparring with just a few key ideas of BJJ, so that's how they started down the MMA path...

I certainly pick up some good ideas of takedown defense from instructionals. I personally don't have the time to train right now in the ground game, so I get as much as I can from instructionals.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's a few interviews around talking with UFC fighters who started with BJJ vids. They were killing their opponents in sparring with just a few key ideas of BJJ, so that's how they started down the MMA path...

I certainly pick up some good ideas of takedown defense from instructionals. I personally don't have the time to train right now in the ground game, so I get as much as I can from instructionals.

Anyone who has seen any of the current crop of MA instructionals that are available right now and thinks that you CAN'T learn form them, is either smoking weed and not sharing or they have something to sell themselves.

[zuti car]

I would recommend Sifu Gary Lam's videos, I have found all of his videos to be very informative. His skill, knowledge, and understanding is the best I've come across. http://garylamwingchun.com/products_and_services.html


I have over 100 Wing Chun videos , and must say that Gary Lam's videos are very good , i would not say the best , but very, very good .
Benny Meng videos are also very good

[CFT]

Anyone who has seen any of the current crop of MA instructionals that are available right now and thinks that you CAN'T learn form them, is either smoking weed and not sharing or they have something to sell themselves.As a matter of interest, what are your current personal recommendations?

[sanjuro_ronin]

As a matter of interest, what are your current personal recommendations?

In regards too what systems?

[CFT]

In regards too what systems?Any. Standup striking, grappling, weapons. Don't worry if it will take too much effort to dig up the info.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any. Standup striking, grappling, weapons. Don't worry if it will take too much effort to dig up the info.

Well, its just the specifics narrow down the amount of info.
EX:
Robert Drysdale has an excellent series on no-gi BJJ called the nth Dimension, its very well done and well explained and anyone can pick up some value stuff to add to their no-gi grappling.
But it is specific to no-gi grappling.

[monji112000]

I disagree. You can learn a lot from books and videos. Especially if you have some background in the basics to build upon. But you still need someone to help and guide you. :)

Even if you have a background you need someone to watch over you and help you. It really depends on if your learning a small idea or a large idea..
If I'm I learning just another way to cover a punch, OK.. but if I'm learning a whole new system of grappling.. chances are your going to miss allot of things and do allot of things flat out wrong. (you can still do things wrong when you have someone teach you.. )
YOU can always just fudge your way through.. but its better to have someone who at least has a good idea of how something works. It cuts the learning process down by allot.

again NO books or DVDs teach you the every form and all of the applications. Wing Chun isn't an easy style to learn.. so your better off learning from a good teacher in your area no matter what style it is. Maybe take up JKD..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even if you have a background you need someone to watch over you and help you. It really depends on if your learning a small idea or a large idea..
If I'm I learning just another way to cover a punch, OK.. but if I'm learning a whole new system of grappling.. chances are your going to miss allot of things and do allot of things flat out wrong. (you can still do things wrong when you have someone teach you.. )
YOU can always just fudge your way through.. but its better to have someone who at least has a good idea of how something works. It cuts the learning process down by allot.

again NO books or DVDs teach you the every form and all of the applications. Wing Chun isn't an easy style to learn.. so your better off learning from a good teacher in your area no matter what style it is. Maybe take up JKD..

I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the "intricacies".

[monji112000]

I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the "intricacies".

this is my experience, I have always found that I "learn" allot more when I have someone who is better than me. Someone who actually knows something about what I'm doing. I have learned things on my own, but its a very long process. You often make mistakes and don't know it.. then you can't understand why it never works the way they say...

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is my experience, I have always found that I "learn" allot more when I have someone who is better than me. Someone who actually knows something about what I'm doing. I have learned things on my own, but its a very long process. You often make mistakes and don't know it.. then you can't understand why it never works the way they say...

You always learn BETTER when you have someone teaching you who knows what he is doing.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that, but you can learn certain things from instructionals.
Thing is, you really do need someone to give you feedback, and that is the core issue and one that speeds up your development.

[couch]

You always learn BETTER when you have someone teaching you who knows what he is doing.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that, but you can learn certain things from instructionals.
Thing is, you really do need someone to give you feedback, and that is the core issue and one that speeds up your development.

And a lot can be said about pressure testing something. It doesn't matter if Sifu sez or Videotape sez... if it works under pressure, it's probably valuable. That's always a good gage, too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And a lot can be said about pressure testing something. It doesn't matter if Sifu sez or Videotape sez... if it works under pressure, it's probably valuable. That's always a good gage, too.

Quite, pressure testing is the only test.

[tjwingchun]

anyone know of any books/vids that explain each movement in the forms and the different applications for each? Im realitivaly new to the art. 2 years experience i know all the empty hand forms but dont yet completely understand just looking for someone different views other than mine or my sifu's

any help at all would be apprieciated,
I put stuff up on www.youtube.com just search tjwingchun SLT is there in detail and when my life settles down all the forms of Wing Chun will be.

I simply try to explain the forms as personal body mechanics, no Chinese hype or mysticism, my view is that the forms, especially the first 2 are not application related but simply methods to know the various ways energy can be created in the body and the different directions they can be utilised.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

thanks for all the advice guys FYI im in southwest missouri, around the nixa area

[Vajramusti]

IMO- Ip Chun's chi sao is likely to be different from many others. Generalizations about everyone's chi sao are problematic.

joy chaudhuri

[bennyvt]

I bought a heap of vids and books over the years. I have found that books tend to get me interested or give me different views which I can ask my teacher about or trial it in training. As long as you aren't just doing it on your own and your teacher knows and can explain stuff it shouldn't matter.On the benny mengs vids, I bought nearly all his books (quite good) and his SLT video. The vid was described as SLT as taught by 5-6 grand masters ( I bought it about 6yrs ago so it may be more or less). When I got it the quality and presentation was good but it was one person doing the form and benny meng saying, Chu shun tin says this, WSL says this. I was thinking it would be the different forms with an explanation and why they do different things. It was more his form with little snipits of what other people say. So was not very happy. Probably the best one I had seen at the time but was given too much hype and didnt deliver.