How do you master several different martial arts in a very short time?

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Is it possible for any one to tell me how can someone master several different martial arts while having a full time job & social life? I asked this question because some of the martial arts adverts I have saw where the instructors (masters) claiming to be teachers in several different martial arts. However, they are 28 - 40s years old. According to the traditional martial arts system, it takes at least 30 years of serious training before anyone can call themselves a master in the traditional martial arts system. There is no way those people can be masters of in several different martial arts, except:
1) they are conmen
2) jack of all trade and master of none
3) very talented genius.


Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)

Wing chun - about 4 &1/2 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighing people.

boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

kick boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

Hung kuen - 8 -10 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighting people

western fencing - at least a year before you fight in a bout, 2 hours per day training. 3 years later you can become an instructor.

average black belt - 3 years, 2 hours a day.


In the tradition Japanese martial arts - black belt means that you have just started to understand martial arts.

I have calculated that you need at least 22 years of serious training (8-10 hours trainging per day) in order to master 5 different oriental martial arts (knowing everything about them and reach a high level of standard in fighting). I mean knowing the history of the system, forms, fighting application, weapons and herbal medicine to cure yourself and your students.
You also need to find the time to practise the other martial arts you have already know, so that you will not forget about them. Therefore, how come there are adverts and seminar telling people that you can become a martial arts instructor or body guard after 1 or 2 day seminar!
I remembered seeing "Faking it in USA" several years ago, where a kinder garden school teacher without any martial arts training trained as a body guard in 4 weeks, 7-10 intensive training per day. She had passed her test by convincing the experts that she was a bodyguard. However, she got experts help and she did not have to fight anyone for more than 5 seconds in the test!
For example, for an average student to obtain a degree in any of the UK university, he or she suppose to have spend at least 3 years (full time) learning it. 7 hours in the class, 5 -6 hours doing the home work and reading your notes. To obtain 7 different degrees, you need at least 21 years to complete them + spending several years revising the other degrees you have already got. Therefore, you need at least 25 years to learn and retain all your knowledge in those 7 degrees.

The length of time needed to obtain 7 degrees should not be much different from learning 7 totally different martial arts. How did those instructors (under 40s) master 7 - 10 different martial arts system, while having full time jobs (not related to martial arts), social life and families?

Thank you
Hitman

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

First, some of your premises are wrong. ALL styles, no matter what they are should be functional in 12 to 18 months top, even Tai Chi.

Your Hung gar times are off the scale. You can learn JUST the techniques found first section of the first form and be taking names in 6 months with that style.

True mastery should be 9 to 10 years on a ful time schedule. (6 to 8 hours a day 5 days a week)

The other thing, related arts can be mastered simultaneously. For example, a Taii tzu player should be ablle to master Tong Bei and some form of Taiji Quan in the same time it takes him to master his Tai tzu because those arts are all connected both evolutionary, and thus in principal and technique.

Taiji comes from Tai Tzu, which comes from Tong Bei. Due to the vast similarities stemming from a common evolutionary root, one only needs to tack on the differences to get all 3 styles mastered in 10 or 12 years.

[golden arhat]

i wouldnt want to be a master of a style that isnt functional quickly

why waste time on something that takes years when you can learn what is applicable now ??

[TenTigers]

You can become functional in Hung-Ga in under a year. When I say functional, I mean you can attack and defend, and generate some good power. Higher attainments, such as evasive body,footwork, bridge sensitivity,short hand skills, faht-ging,and timing,etc obviously come with time. But it's reciprocal-what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

[David Jamieson]

I began learning Sil Lum almost 15 years ago. I am still learning and would hardly call myself a master of any of it.

The fighting aspects and such were functional and usable in the first year though.

I don't think you can "master" anything in a short amount of time, even potty training a kid takes a few months, learning to speak a couple of years, learning to speak well and be articulate is something that many if not most never actually grasp....

so, I wouldn't expect to master an art form be it fighting or slinging paint or what have you in it's entirety in a short period of time.

this is an unreasonable expectation to have of any art that is worth any merit at all.

there are no shortcuts, do the work or do without the results.

[bodhitree]

Some people learn faster than others, some people are natural martial artists.

There is this one guy that started grappling with no prior experience and turned into a beast in a couple weeks. I on the other hand am a slow learner, at least martial arts wise.

[Becca]

i wouldnt want to be a master of a style that isnt functional quickly

why waste time on something that takes years when you can learn what is applicable now ??he didn't say 'functional" he said master. You can make an art functional with 4 or 5 techniques, but still not be anywere near mastering that art. That's a difference lost on many of the bobble-head sceene.

[Black Jack II]

he didn't say 'functional" he said master. You can make an art functional with 4 or 5 techniques,

Beat me to it.:D

Functional is a whole different ballgame than whatever modality you cater the term master with.

Often they are not even equal in description. Meaning you can have some sort of mechanical mastery of an art form, the same as would a trained dancer, but not be able to apply anything you know in a real world context.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)


Reply]
This is another mis placed premise. You do not need to learn an entire system to be able to fight. You can learn all the core principals, tactics and strategies, and a hand full of the style's core techniques (like all the techniques in the first form) and be fighting in 6-9 months.

If you add a ton of conditioning, structure, mechanics, resistance and competitive exercises and drill the crap out of the basics, with a schedule of 2-3 hours a day, 4 times a week, in 18 months you will be really good.

That basically is just working the first level of the style only, hardly even Black Sash level.

This is universal, no matter what the style.

[B-Rad]

Just want to point out that instructor does not equal master. Also, if you're good at one style of martial arts, sometimes it's very easy to learn another style if you want to. A lot of schools though don't know how to develop a reasonable amount of athleticism and fitness in their schools, so you don't really get many useful ability that would transfer to another training system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How do you master several different martial arts in a very short time?

You don't, you can't and you shouldn't try.

[xcakid]

Mastery, highly unlikely.

However, being able to learn various arts by 40 is not impossible. I started at age 12-13. Took 1yr of Sil Lum. Transferred to Shoalin Kempo and at the same time was learning arnis. Did that for 4yrs while in H.S. Went in the military and started taking Tae Kwon Do. Did that for 4yrs. Then found another Shaolin Kempo school and was there for another 3yrs. as well as starting back up with Arnis. Left that school and took 2yrs of Ying Jow Pai and still continued taking Arnis. Left martial arts for 11yrs due to career and I am now back, 2yrs. taking Long Fist.

In this case I can put all of my experiences down on paper if I ever decided to open up a school and teach. I would never call myself a master though. Nor will I want to teach a hybrid of the arts I've learned.

I turn 41 in August.

[golden arhat]

surely the point when you call yourself a master is the point when you fail. theres always more to learn so to call yourself a master is just an ego stroke no ?

[Eddie]

in the olden days south african dutch (abnd later afrikaans) we called any teacher ' master' (meester in afrikaans).

I think allot of people are way to hung up about the title.

who cares what people call you or themselves.

[Ray Pina]

This question requires honesty.

It doesn't take 30 years to become "a master", though I would argue a true martial artist would never feel like they have mastered a style... there is always room for improvement, a need to do things differently to gain an advantage over the present standard.

I think the real question is what does it take to be.... and then you have to be honest with yourself.

Do you want to compete at a high level today? Then you have to understand that there are guys who have devoted their life to training, professional kick boxers, MMAers and BJJ players. Not only are these people spending 6 to 8 hours a day on the mat and have their technique refined, their conditioning is like a world-class athlete. They are world class athletes. It's not popular to say because it shatters many people's world view, but these people would own most of us. I have the luxury of working from home, surfing all day and rolling BJJ hardcore three times a week.... about to incorporate some Puerto Rican boxing.... and it's still not enough to compete at this level.

As for the ability to use Taiji or Hung Gar effectively in a year.... again, honesty is required..... use it against who? I would say your typical Taiji player would have their head handed to them by your typical high school senior football player, just because of their familiarity with violence and aggression and their conditioning. After a year, a Hung Gar player might be moving better, getting some power into their striking, but I wouldn't get carried away.

Martial arts are relative. I have a propensity for this stuff since I started as a kid, but after a year of hardcore BJJ training, I just got tooled in San Juan this weekend at a seminar. No way I can compete with a similar aged/sized brown belt. No way.

There is no short cut. You have to spend countless hours training. Then you have to spend countless hours competing against others to force you to test your technique, see what works for you and why.

There is no simple answer. There is no Taiji in 12 month program. Even if you could find a "master" that could use their stuff (very hard to do) Taiji just doesn't attract fighters. And in the rare case that it does, you still need like minded people next to you in class to train properly.

We all know what it takes to reach the level we want to reach no matter what it is. Be honest with yourself. I couldn't be a wushu champion in 12 months. Likewise, some kid who turned to "kung fu" instead of more daily-combat oriented arts like Thai Boxing, boxing, kick boxing or BJJ isn't going to dazzle a decent fighter in a few months. No way.

It takes a lot to be comfortable fighting. And to be honest, you don't run into too many Kung Fu guys that have "it".

[Becca]

Beat me to it.:D

Functional is a whole different ballgame than whatever modality you cater the term master with.

Often they are not even equal in description. Meaning you can have some sort of mechanical mastery of an art form, the same as would a trained dancer, but not be able to apply anything you know in a real world context.Agreed.
In Pai Lum, you can become "functional" by working the individual techniques taught in the very first beginner's form for a few days on a heavy bag. There are many, many more than that, though, just to master the begginer's level. And mastering the begginers level isn't mastering the art, it is just adding an orange fringe to your newby sash.;):p

[Ray Pina]

I would argue that even throwing crisp combinations on a heavy bag doesn't necessarily make you a functional martial artist. The bag doesn't strike back.

When you are calm, when it is an every day thing to enter and exit the pocket under fire, then you are on your way.

[SPJ]

Dear all,
Is it possible for any one to tell me how can someone master several different martial arts while having a full time job & social life? I asked this question because some of the martial arts adverts I have saw where the instructors (masters) claiming to be teachers in several different martial arts. However, they are 28 - 40s years old. According to the traditional martial arts system, it takes at least 30 years of serious training before anyone can call themselves a master in the traditional martial arts system. There is no way those people can be masters of in several different martial arts, except:
1) they are conmen
2) jack of all trade and master of none
3) very talented genius.


Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)

Wing chun - about 4 &1/2 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighing people.

boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

kick boxing - at least a year before you fight in a ring, 2 hours per day.

Hung kuen - 8 -10 years, 5-7 hours a day practicing + fighting people

western fencing - at least a year before you fight in a bout, 2 hours per day training. 3 years later you can become an instructor.

average black belt - 3 years, 2 hours a day.


In the tradition Japanese martial arts - black belt means that you have just started to understand martial arts.

I have calculated that you need at least 22 years of serious training (8-10 hours trainging per day) in order to master 5 different oriental martial arts (knowing everything about them and reach a high level of standard in fighting). I mean knowing the history of the system, forms, fighting application, weapons and herbal medicine to cure yourself and your students.
You also need to find the time to practise the other martial arts you have already know, so that you will not forget about them. Therefore, how come there are adverts and seminar telling people that you can become a martial arts instructor or body guard after 1 or 2 day seminar!
I remembered seeing "Faking it in USA" several years ago, where a kinder garden school teacher without any martial arts training trained as a body guard in 4 weeks, 7-10 intensive training per day. She had passed her test by convincing the experts that she was a bodyguard. However, she got experts help and she did not have to fight anyone for more than 5 seconds in the test!
For example, for an average student to obtain a degree in any of the UK university, he or she suppose to have spend at least 3 years (full time) learning it. 7 hours in the class, 5 -6 hours doing the home work and reading your notes. To obtain 7 different degrees, you need at least 21 years to complete them + spending several years revising the other degrees you have already got. Therefore, you need at least 25 years to learn and retain all your knowledge in those 7 degrees.

The length of time needed to obtain 7 degrees should not be much different from learning 7 totally different martial arts. How did those instructors (under 40s) master 7 - 10 different martial arts system, while having full time jobs (not related to martial arts), social life and families?

Thank you
Hitman

We may learn as many arts/styles as we want.

however, due to physical attributes/features of our body, we may only practice and excel in only one or just a few skills.

1. Tai Chi stress yielding aspect.

2. Xing Yi straight "marching" on.

3. Ba Gua walking and avoiding stepping.

each style stressing some key skills or tactics and strategy.

even among each style, practitioners are known for different skills.

1. Cheng Ting Hua was known for shuai jiao, so his ba gua is full of throws.

2. Yin Fu and Shi Ji Dong were known for luo han shou and tan tui. Their ba gua are full of fast punches and fast kicks.

3. Hang Qing Tan was very good in qin na. even thou he knew many other stuffs. He is still recognised by his qin na skills.

http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=756

in short, we may practice and excel in only a few skills no matter how may stuff we would like to learn and "master".

;):D:):cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would argue that even throwing crisp combinations on a heavy bag doesn't necessarily make you a functional martial artist. The bag doesn't strike back.

When you are calm, when it is an every day thing to enter and exit the pocket under fire, then you are on your way.

Depends on who is inside the bag...:D

[SPJ]

Tai chi likes to be like water.

Xing Yi likes to be a spear.

Ba Gua likes to be a wind.

--

:D;)

[Laukarbo]

To me a master is the one that produces fine practicioner which eventually become teachers themself but more importantly become good people,a master is someone that understands the purpose of his chosen style..someone who is able to defend himself when neccessary...

a master is not undefeatable no human is

[Laukarbo]

and most importantly a master should never have the surname Bate
:D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

and most importantly a master should never have the surname Bate
:D:D:D
I knew a Master Bateman.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank for your answers they are very interesting.



RD'S Alias - 1A

"First, some of your premises are wrong. ALL styles, no matter what they are should be functional in 12 to 18 months top, even Tai Chi."

Some of my premises are from:

Wing chun - Sifu Duncan Leung

Hung kuen - late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong


I do not know who train you and how the kung fu masters teach in America, but I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers in London only teach their students forms, with very little application in fighting. I based my observation on how their students fight in tournaments, as well as my own experience. They fought like boxers and kick boxers, but unable to use any of their kung fu techniques.
I used to know two Tai Chi teachers who had spent 15 years (2 hours per day training) learning from a traditional Chinese Tai Chi master. All they learned were forms and they could not even defence themselves in a fight! Therefore, until those kung fu instructors and masters change their minds about actually teaching their students something useful beside forms, then there is no way anyone can fight with their kung fu forms after 40 years of training, let alone 18 months. They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.




"Your Hung gar times are off the scale. You can learn JUST the techniques found first section of the first form and be taking names in 6 months with that style."


Here is part of the interview of a famous Hung Kuen master, the late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong with a BBC television reporter in 1980s:

"I have several thousands of pupils, but not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors. Hung Kuen is a very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the student properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave."

Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years?



"Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)"


I am talking about learning the whole system and use it in a fight. I am not talking about learning few effective techniques.


If anyone call themselves masters , then I would expect them to know (as well as mastered) at least 80 -100% of their kung fu system. However, if a half bucketful instructor who know less than 50% of his system and call himself/herself a master, then this makes the title "master" to become worthless.


The classical Japanese sword fighting school - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu give 3 stages of acknowledgement of achievement to their students. A diligent student received his first scroll after about 5 years. He got his second scroll after another 5 years. The third scroll only awarded to senior instructors who have been trained with the Ryu for a total of 15 years. The American scholar, Don Draegar was the only non Japanese ever to have achieved this rank in the Ryu (before 1982).


Thank you

Hitman

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

[NJM]

If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

Because he wanted us to pay attention to his beating-the-dead-horse blog.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.

Ah, I see now.
All is clear.

[Hitman]

I ask this question because:

1) one person from work told me that he had met a kung fu master (under 40s), who has mastered 7 different martial arts (teacher is from India?). This master could apply his kung fu skills in a fight.
2) other person told me his former kung fu instructor know 6 different kung fu styles and created his own style (teacher is from Hong Kong)
3) a friend told me that his teacher know 5 different Japanese martial arts and able to use it (teacher is from Japan).



They all wanted me to join their classes. I know the state of Chinese kung fu being taught in London. However, I do not know the level of martial arts skills being taught in other countries. I do not believe that it is possible for some one to learn 7 different martial arts under 40s old, so I thought to ask the experts' advice in this forum, before I wasted my time and money to attend those classes.
Some of the replies told me that it is possible to learn 5 different styles.

Thank you

Hitman

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD'S Alias - 1A

"First, some of your premises are wrong. ALL styles, no matter what they are should be functional in 12 to 18 months top, even Tai Chi."

Some of my premises are from:

Wing chun - Sifu Duncan Leung

Hung kuen - late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong

Reply]
Maybe they didn't actually want to teach thier art.

I do not know who train you and how the kung fu masters teach in America, but I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers in London only teach their students forms, with very little application in fighting.

Reply]
Then they are not actually teaching the style, they are just giving out the wrapper it came in.

I based my observation on how their students fight in tournaments, as well as my own experience. They fought like boxers and kick boxers, but unable to use any of their kung fu techniques.

Reply]
No surprise there, they were not taught thier art, only the forms. Forms are not supposed to be taught until AFTER the style has become proficient. They are not teaching tools, but advanced tools of refinement and cataloging.

I used to know two Tai Chi teachers who had spent 15 years (2 hours per day training) learning from a traditional Chinese Tai Chi master. All they learned were forms and they could not even defence themselves in a fight!

Reply]
Thier teacher did not teach them the art, just gave out the wrapper.


Therefore, until those kung fu instructors and masters change their minds about actually teaching their students something useful beside forms, then there is no way anyone can fight with their kung fu forms after 40 years of training, let alone 18 months.

Reply]
Not all lines are modern forms collectors. There are still some old school systems that teach the fighting style the old way. In a system like that, 18 months will produce a fairly skilled fightter who can hold is own in a surprising number of situations. Many of those pure Old School lines are out of China, in Indonesia and Malaysia and the USA, but there are still real Old school Chinese masters in China too. Look for the schools that don't teach forms until you can fight with it's techniques.


They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.

Reply]
Real Kung Fu does not look like a movie, but it does not look like Kick boxing either. Kick Boxing is a basic defense method hardwired into our genes. If one has to fight, and is not trained to, the genetic fall back style emerges.

All these modern Kung Fu systems that are teaching just the from choreography are NOT teaching the style's methods fo fighting, so thier students fall back to the original bootup style that is loaded in human brain's MS windows, which is crude crappy kick boxing and smothering tackles.

In essence by only teaching the forms, they are not passing on the style (If they even learned it from thier teachers), and it has died. Only the name and the pretty wrapping paper lived on in thier lines. You have to search and find an old school line that was not demilitarized in modern times.



"Your Hung gar times are off the scale. You can learn JUST the techniques found first section of the first form and be taking names in 6 months with that style."


Here is part of the interview of a famous Hung Kuen master, the late Sifu Chan Hon Chung from Hong Kong with a BBC television reporter in 1980s:

"I have several thousands of pupils, but not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors.

Reply]
Becaus he'sa crappy teacher. The very fact that he does not have anyone able to teach, dspite all this time, and thousands of students is absolute proof of his utter failure as a teacher.

Hung Kuen is a very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the student properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave."

Reply]
Bull ****. This person is not a real teacher, and is not interested in passing his art to anyone. It's all a facade with him, or he'd have Hungar fighters in Months, instead of years. I can take a TAPE of Hungar and it's basic apps and martial strategies, teach off the TAPE and have real Hungar fighters in 18 months. I don't even do the style, I just have an introduction to it. However, i know HOW to teach, apparently others don't.



Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years?

Reply]
Because he sux, and learned half assed backwards. THAT is why it takes these guys so long to learn and teach. they START with the forms. that is totally wrong. Only in MODERN times, like the last 3 generations did Kung fu training start there.

I learned the first section of the Tiger Crane form. There is enough applications in the BOW alone to make a solid Hung gar fighter quickly. All you need is to drill that, and maybe the first section of the form with resisting partners, and have a detailed explanation of how those techniques are applied, and you can fight in the Hungar style. ANYONE who can't get a student proficient in 18 months either does not know how to teach, doesn't WANT to teach the art, or never knew it in the first place and only had the superfical most part of it (IE the forms)



"Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)"


I am talking about learning the whole system and use it in a fight. I am not talking about learning few effective techniques.

Reply]
Then you are talking about Mastery, that would be 10 years of full time training.


If anyone call themselves masters , then I would expect them to know (as well as mastered) at least 80 -100% of their kung fu system. However, if a half bucketful instructor who know less than 50% of his system and call himself/herself a master, then this makes the title "master" to become worthless.

Reply]
Not if that 50% or less person can kick the snot out of the puffy masters who only teach forms. Actually, knowing the forms, and being good at them is only about 10% of the style anyway. It was originally the LAST thing one learned AFTER mastering the art. It was a Diploma of sorts.

So if you have a guy who knows only one form of the system, but can fight well with every aspect of it, he is more a master than the guy that knows all the forms.
Why? because he's got 90% of the style already, and the guy who knows all the forms only has 10% of the style.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

RD, when the **** are you going to learn how to use the god **** quote function. You take what little pleasure there is away from reading the threads which you participate in. Press the QUOTE button INSTEAD of hitting REPLY~!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years?

Reply]
Because he sux, and learned half assed backwards. THAT is why it takes these guys so long to learn and teach. they START with the forms. that is totally wrong. Only in MODERN times, like the last 3 generations did Kung fu training start there.

I learned the first section of the Tiger Crane form. There is enough applications in the BOW alone to make a solid Hung gar fighter quickly. All you need is to drill that, and maybe the first section of the form with resisting partners, and have a detailed explanation of how those techniques are applied, and you can fight in the Hungar style. ANYONE who can't get a student proficient in 18 months either does not know how to teach, doesn't WANT to teach the art, or never knew it in the first place and only had the superfical most part of it (IE the forms)

You have ZERO idea of WHO Chan was or what he meant, do you?

[lkfmdc]

They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films.

Hey! want to know why when you see guys fight, it doesn't look like fights in films?

BECAUSE IT IS A ****ING MOVIE!

This board is full of idiots, really it is :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have ZERO idea of WHO Chan was or what he meant, do you?

I don't really care who he was, if he took EIGHT years to get a good fighter, and if he taught thousands, but less than ten are qualified to teach, after all that time, then his record speaks for itself, now doesn't it.

[EDIT]
I'd like to add, that the person in question could very well have been the best hung gar player ever, but that does not mean he can actually teach it. Also, his TEACHER may not have been a very good teacher either, and he managed to get good eventually, because of his own talent.

Practicing an art, and TEACHING an art are two totally different skill sets. A Great martial artist does not = a great teacher.

As I mentioned before, i can often teach something I either just learned, or am mimiking off of a tape better than the master can, despite not even knowing what I am teaching very well. Why is this? because i am a very good teacher, and I have a very methodical, step by step teaching methodology and i have a natural talent for identifying what is important and what needs to be taught when and at what stage.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD, when the **** are you going to learn how to use the god **** quote function. You take what little pleasure there is away from reading the threads which you participate in. Press the QUOTE button INSTEAD of hitting REPLY~!


Reply]
You are really petty.

[golden arhat]

you are really petty

reply]

yeah but it gets a bit annoying, please us the quote button:p

[TenTigers]

Responce]
Could it also be that Chan-Sifu holds himself and his teaching to a higher standard? Perhaps he doesn't cater to mediocrity. Perhaps people are used to getting what they want, their way, without actually recognizing and understanding what exactly it is they are supposed to be learning.
This is why most people who practice Gung-Fu learn forms and sparring, and do not invest the proper time developing a foundation by stance training and lien-gung, and then years later, their Gung-Fu is merely an empty shell of what it's supposed to be. Then they sit and complain that it's inneffective. Perhaps it's because they never actually learned it in the first place. All they learned was forms and some "applications."
Now they're 'Masters."

[TenTigers]

Answer]
BTW, I believe he studied under Lam Sai-Wing.

[golden arhat]

I do not know who train you and how the kung fu masters teach in America, but I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers in London only teach their students forms, with very little application in fighting. I based my observation on how their students fight in tournaments, as well as my own experience. They fought like boxers and kick boxers, but unable to use any of their kung fu techniques.

thats because they werent drilling application obviously, the answer is ptretty self explanetory, you fight how you train, if you train hitting the air then you'l become very good at hitting the air the opposite is also true.




I used to know two Tai Chi teachers who had spent 15 years (2 hours per day training) learning from a traditional Chinese Tai Chi master. All they learned were forms and they could not even defence themselves in a fight! Therefore, until those kung fu instructors and masters change their minds about actually teaching their students something useful beside forms, then there is no way anyone can fight with their kung fu forms after 40 years of training, let alone 18 months.wel duhhh
They may be able to fight like an amateur boxers, kick boxers, i resent that, since when did kick boxing or boxing become lesser arts?? they are equally if not more valid arts, they teach by and large whats applicable.
but not like kung fu fighters we saw in films. NO ONE FIGHTS LIKE THEY DO IN FILMS, ITS A MOVIE, its there for ENTERTAINMENT.



"I have several thousands of pupils, but not even ten of them are good enough to be instructors. Hung Kuen is a very difficult to learn and no one can teach others if he or she is not an expert. It takes at least eight years for me to teach the student properly, whereas people will learn for only two or three years before they leave." dont learn from this guy


Master Chan used to train 5 hours a day in Hung Kuen. If master Chan of the Hung Kuen style said to me that it would take him at least 8 years to teach Hung Kuen to me properly, how does anyone think that it is possible for me to master it in 9 - 10 years? 1. you will never master it, you will realise that there are more styles out there and that styles or systems dont mean anything. realise that mastering something means the end of learning, and that is never a good thing. learn it all, then forget it all.




"Length of time to learn the whole system (able to use it in a fight)" since when have learning the whole system and being able to use it meant the same thing, i dont know every single wrestling move in the book but i can wrestle someone if i need to



I am talking about learning the whole system and use it in a fight. I am not talking about learning few effective techniques. you dont need to learn the whole system to be able to use it in a fight, i'm no master at html but i can use it. how about this, go find someone who is teaching techniques against resisting opponents and making them work, then learn a few techniques, then when u got those down leanr a few more and so on and so on, forget about systems



If anyone call themselves masters , then I would expect them to know (as well as mastered) at least 80 -100% of their kung fu system. However, if a half bucketful instructor who know less than 50% of his system and call himself/herself a master, then this makes the title "master" to become worthless. i'd rather have a teacher that knows 50% and can make that 50 work than someone who knows it all but makes me wait around for years "its better to train one kick a thousand times than train a thousand kicks once"



The classical Japanese sword fighting school - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu give 3 stages of acknowledgement of achievement to their students. A diligent student received his first scroll after about 5 years. He got his second scroll after another 5 years. The third scroll only awarded to senior instructors who have been trained with the Ryu for a total of 15 years. The American scholar, Don Draegar was the only non Japanese ever to have achieved this rank in the Ryu (before 1982).
thats because they were probably a school that tought high ranked officials and their families and wanted to keep their business for a long time, during the 200 year peaceful era known as the "Tokugawa era"

do you really think that a functional martial arts gym in feudal japan would take that long to train a warrior, feudal japan was turbulent and people were dying all the time

most peoples lives would be over by the time they were 50 tops! they just didnt have the time to teach for that long to warriors who would be out fighting wars against other clans you couldnt spend that amount of time trainining

saying that you need to learn for years and years is just a way of ensuring repeat business from gullible fools like yourself

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Responce]
Could it also be that Chan-Sifu holds himself and his teaching to a higher standard? Perhaps he doesn't cater to mediocrity. Perhaps people are used to getting what they want, their way, without actually recognizing and understanding what exactly it is they are supposed to be learning.
This is why most people who practice Gung-Fu learn forms and sparring, and do not invest the proper time developing a foundation by stance training and lien-gung, and then years later, their Gung-Fu is merely an empty shell of what it's supposed to be. Then they sit and complain that it's inneffective. Perhaps it's because they never actually learned it in the first place. All they learned was forms and some "applications."
Now they're 'Masters."

Reply]
This would be the fault of the teachers, not the student. The student can only absorb the material presented. if all that is is forms, then that is all he can get good at.

When I teach, I do stances right away (structure), Qi Gong (Mechanics), Conditioning (specialized and general), basics, foot work and applications. I also have various competitive exercises designed to build positional and entry skills so the student can get to, and unleash thier techniques from a tactically superior, advantagous position. I teach this BEFORE even a single application.

Once I can see the student has developed some footwork and positional skills, THEN I teach them the 18 Basic shaolin techniques (Modified to replace many with Tai tzu varients of course).

In the first 3 months I can get a student fighting WITH the style on a beginning level. by 9-12 months they will be functional, and by 18 they are pretty good, because this is ALL I teach in that time.

At 9 to 12 months, they test for the first level.

After that, I start to add techniques from the first form. I don't actually teach the form's choreography till they are proficient in using all the techniques in actual competitive application.

[Ray Pina]

Things I'm considering:

Some styles, like Hung Gar, have tiger, snake, crane built into them... could this count for 3 styles right there? Some might argue that. And if you understand those concepts well, you might be able to pick up Wing Chun rather quickly. And if you get pretty good at Wing Chun and chi sau, you might be able to pick up a close-in style like southern mantis or Bak Mei, rather quickly.

I spent 5 to 7 years studying those styles, mostly focusing on Wing Chun. I learned alot about bridging and sticking. That later helped me understand some concepts when training internal but it was different.

Which brings me to another point. Seeing something (demonstrated or on video) doesn't mean you understand it. You understand what you see. Most of the time there's a lot of little detail in there. Details that make the difference.

I don't know what any of these considerations mean or are worth. In the end, martial arts is very individualistic and follow the golden rule.... what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

[Vash]

Dear all,
How can someone master several different martial arts while having a full time job & social life?

By being awesome.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Things I'm considering:

Some styles, like Hung Gar, have tiger, snake, crane built into them... could this count for 3 styles right there? Some might argue that. And if you understand those concepts well, you might be able to pick up Wing Chun rather quickly. And if you get pretty good at Wing Chun and chi sau, you might be able to pick up a close-in style like southern mantis or Bak Mei, rather quickly.

I spent 5 to 7 years studying those styles, mostly focusing on Wing Chun. I learned alot about bridging and sticking. That later helped me understand some concepts when training internal but it was different.

Which brings me to another point. Seeing something (demonstrated or on video) doesn't mean you understand it. You understand what you see. Most of the time there's a lot of little detail in there. Details that make the difference.

I don't know what any of these considerations mean or are worth. In the end, martial arts is very individualistic and follow the golden rule.... what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

Reply]
Well said.

Many styles descended from the same source, and thus run on the same technology. The differences are in *How* the curriculum is organized, and in the stylistic flavors of expression. In other words, the differences are rather superficial, and thus easy to organize.

If one knows one, they are really close to knowing all the styles of that family. If you pick the most complete one, then you just need minor adjustments to get the others.

[Drake]

RD, when the **** are you going to learn how to use the god **** quote function. You take what little pleasure there is away from reading the threads which you participate in. Press the QUOTE button INSTEAD of hitting REPLY~!

That's it, Sifu Parrella! I'll be stateside in three weeks. I'll be coming to NYC! I'll be coming after you!!! Lock your doors! Hide your pets! The menace is comin'! Oh yeah! YYYRRRAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't really care who he was, if he took EIGHT years to get a good fighter, and if he taught thousands, but less than ten are qualified to teach, after all that time, then his record speaks for itself, now doesn't it.

[EDIT]
I'd like to add, that the person in question could very well have been the best hung gar player ever, but that does not mean he can actually teach it. Also, his TEACHER may not have been a very good teacher either, and he managed to get good eventually, because of his own talent.

Practicing an art, and TEACHING an art are two totally different skill sets. A Great martial artist does not = a great teacher.

As I mentioned before, i can often teach something I either just learned, or am mimiking off of a tape better than the master can, despite not even knowing what I am teaching very well. Why is this? because i am a very good teacher, and I have a very methodical, step by step teaching methodology and i have a natural talent for identifying what is important and what needs to be taught when and at what stage.

I wonder about you, seriously.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Nothing I have said here is false in any way.

[MasterKiller]

Nothing I have said here is false in any way.

How many instructors have you trained?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That question has nothing to do with the quote.

I have not trained any, however I am a good teacher and i know what it takes to actually teach, and how to do it. When i do teach, my students learn the lessons very quickly.

The reason is that I have a goal in mind, and then break it all down into a step by step progressive plan to achieve that goal. One thing leads to the next and builds up incrementally.

In the past, I have seen people who teach a curriculum, in a certain order, but what thye teach, and the order they teach it does not seem to have a rhyme or reason, nor does it have any specific goal outside of teaching the curriculum itself, rather than using that curriculum as a tool to teach the skills and achieve the end goal.

For example, a teacher may just start teaching the curriculem as he was taught thinking that makes a good martial artists. His goals may be to build fighters, but somewhere down the line the curriculem he is passing was ACTUALLY designed to DEMILITARIZE his system, and he is unaware of that fact. So due to a lack of examination, he is actually teaching a curriculem that is on opposition to his current goals.

It takes 8 years before his students are able to actually fight. just as it took him 8 years. Instead of recognizing that his curriculem is developed to achieve the wrong goal, he thinks Kung Fu is a long and challenging road and never knows the same material can produce powerful fighters if only it was taught differently.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It takes 8 years before his students are able to actually fight. just as it took him 8 years. Instead of recognizing that his curriculem is developed to achieve the wrong goal, he thinks Kung Fu is a long and challenging road and never knows the same material can produce powerful fighters if only it was taught differently.

Where did he say it tales 8 years to be able to FIGHT with his kung fu?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To add to my last post, what I am looking for are the Chinese teacher who know that Kung Fu is a fighting art, and teach the system with a curriculum built on that goal, and not a more modern demilitarized curriculum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To add to my last post, what I am looking for are the Chinese teacher who know that Kung Fu is a fighting art, and teach the system with a curriculum built on that goal, and not a more modern demilitarized curriculum.

And IF those teachers exist, why would they teach it to YOU?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Where did he say it tales 8 years to be able to FIGHT with his kung fu?

Reply]
That was somewhere in the other thread, but still I have heard this many times before as well. It was in a quote from the Hungar Master. I believe he used the word "Proficient" though. which to me means being able to use his skills successfully in a fight.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And IF those teachers exist, why would they teach it to YOU?

Reply]
For the same reasons they have always taught me.

[lkfmdc]

To add to my last post, what I am looking for are the Chinese teacher who know that Kung Fu is a fighting art, and teach the system with a curriculum built on that goal, and not a more modern demilitarized curriculum. OF COURSE, IT HAS TO BE ON VIDEO TAPE SO I CAN LEARN IT THAT WAY


fixed that for him :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
For the same reasons they have always taught me.

If you have been taught...what are you looking for?

[Mulong]

Sadly the best teachers, who really know how to fight don’t teach publicly.

[MasterKiller]

I have not trained any, however I am a good teacher and i know what it takes to actually teach, and how to do it. When i do teach, my students learn the lessons very quickly.
OK. Then how many fighters have you trained?

[MasterKiller]

Sadly the best teachers, who really know how to fight don’t teach publicly.

Bullsh1t sychophantic myth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
That was somewhere in the other thread, but still I have heard this many times before as well. It was in a quote from the Hungar Master. I believe he used the word "Proficient" though. which to me means being able to use his skills successfully in a fight.

No, it has very little to do with fighting, you need to understand the generation you are talking about.
Fighting with a MA is the easy part.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sadly the best teachers, who really know how to fight don’t teach publicly.

Reply]
I tend to agree with that. It seems the really good Kung Fu teachers are generally underground, and difficult to find.

[EDIT] Although Both Johnny Tsai and his Father ran/run public schools, so it it not necessarily that way all the time.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

OK. Then how many fighters have you trained?

Reply]
That is a project I will be working on next year.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
I tend to agree with that. It seems the really good Kung Fu teachers are generally underground, and difficult to find.

Then, how do you know they are good?
Good relative to what?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, it has very little to do with fighting, you need to understand the generation you are talking about.
Fighting with a MA is the easy part.

Reply]
Can you explain in a bit more detail?

[lkfmdc]

Bullsh1t sychophantic myth.

Mulong (sp?) is referring to the CHINESE teachers from CHINA who knew how to fight, who sadly DID stay away from the public eye mostly. As a direct result, the BS Brigade cleaned up $$ wise, got everyone's attention and sold stupid sods like RD and Hardwork8 a bill of goods that they are still chewing on :rolleyes:

The sad thing is, today, with all going on around you, how can people think someone is teaching fighting when there is no fighting going on in or around their so called school? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Can you explain in a bit more detail?

Which part?

[MasterKiller]

Reply]
That is a project I will be working on next year.

I don't think you can compare your method to his if yours is unproven.

[Mulong]

MasterKiller, what I was referring too is that teachers, who do possess real knowledge and I’m not referring to competitive fighting, but actual pugilism rarely being taught to the public. For example, I have been very fortunate to have met a certain individual, who is extremely knowledge and skillful, but doesn’t teach openly.

We have to take into account real fighting isn’t meant to for all; hence, not all can teach it; it is truly a rare breed.

[lkfmdc]

PS:

I should also not, HOWEVER, that a lot of guys we think of as "fighters" from that shady backroom tradition would still probably have lost to what are derided here as 'sport fighters".....

Beating up untrained people, collecting gambling debts and stabbing people doesn't make one really a good fighter, just a tough person

Fighters get good at fighting by, gasp, FIGHTING! Fighting other fighters, who are also getting better all the time

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Then, how do you know they are good?
Good relative to what?

Reply]
Because fighters from other more public systems go to them to help with deficiencies in thier training. Not for forms or Qi gong either, but for actual usage and practical strategy.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Mulong (sp?)
The sad thing is, today, with all going on around you, how can people think someone is teaching fighting when there is no fighting going on in or around their so called school? :rolleyes:

Reply]
Ross, you may not like this (since I appear to be your current whipping boy), but that is my over all point, and we seem to be in agreement 100%

[sanjuro_ronin]

PS:

I should also not, HOWEVER, that a lot of guys we think of as "fighters" from that shady backroom tradition would still probably have lost to what are derided here as 'sport fighters".....

Beating up untrained people, collecting gambling debts and stabbing people doesn't make one really a good fighter, just a tough person

Fighters get good at fighting by, gasp, FIGHTING! Fighting other fighters, who are also getting better all the time

Correct.
CORRECT !!! I SAY !!!!

[Mulong]

In my opinion you need fundamentals, which competitive fighting is the foundation for all forms of pugilism, because it teaches about striking, but most of impact, which is overlooked so much. From there an individual can truly learn the true art of fighting, which at times isn’t physical.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't think you can compare your method to his if yours is unproven.

Reply]
Except that my methods are occasionally adapted by teachers who are proven. There have been a few times my teaching method has been incorporated. Or are (as I am discovering) my methods are already very similar to teachers who do have proven abilities and have produced successful people. Which makes sense because the Way i teach is based off of the Romanian gymnastics coaching model, only I substitute MA skills instead of Gymnastics.

My idea now is to surround myself with talent that exceeds my own, and then absorb it. Later I will apply my teaching methods to that knowledge base.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Because fighters from other more public systems go to them to help with deficiencies in thier training. Not for forms or Qi gong either, but for actual usage and practical strategy.

I am confused, since you seem to be already exposed to that, what exactly are you looking for ??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Which makes sense because the Way i teach is based off of the Romanian gymnastics coaching model, only I substitute MA skills instead of Gymnastics.


Ouch.
MA skills are NOT gymnastics and the Romania teaching methods are aimed at not only genetically gifted individuals, but very young ones too.

[lkfmdc]

In my opinion you need fundamentals, which competitive fighting is the foundation for all forms of pugilism, because it teaches about striking, but most of impact, which is overlooked so much. From there an individual can truly learn the true art of fighting, which at times isn’t physical.

You can know a pile of technique, but it all goes out the window if you've never been hit and never dealt with stress and adrenaline. Putting on some gloves and pads and going at eachother not only is about learning the strikes and blocks, it's about dealing with getting hit and stess....

A lot of old school TCMA didn't directly address this in training, because the people doing it were already "tough guys" who led ruff lives. But the concept is there, look a the the "Chan" principle in Tibetan martial arts

[MasterKiller]

Or are (as I am discovering) my methods are already very similar to teachers who do have proven abilities and have produced successful people. Such as whom?

[Mulong]

Indeed lkfmdc that what I was leading towards. For example, as you well know the best fighters, usually come from the toughest areas or should we say the ghettos of the world, i.e., warrior mentality.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I can't really say. It's top secret stuff.

[lkfmdc]

Indeed lkfmdc that what I was leading towards. For example, as you well know the best fighters, usually come from the toughest areas or should we say the ghettos of the world, i.e., warrior mentality.


Or, another way

Think back to a popular story in TCMA

There is a tough fighter, he beats all the local instructors. Then the REAL master shows up and beats him! Wow, REAL MASTER beat the guy who beat all the local instructors

Reality, most likely

1. Local instructors had technique but were not tough guys

2. The fighter who beat them was a tough guy who had no fear and had real world experience

3. The REAL MASTER was simply a guy who had BOTH technique and toughness and real experience

And he'd still probably be a B level amateur in today's fighting world!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ouch.
MA skills are NOT gymnastics and the Romania teaching methods are aimed at not only genetically gifted individuals, but very young ones too.

Reply]
Not true at all, you are thinking of the Russian Olympic model. The Romanians have a different approach all together. Thier methods are based on using the most over all efficient skill development techniques, and incorporation of conditioning that is nearly identical too the skill itself. They recognize need for recovery time, and not pushing to excess.

The Romanian coach who trained my daughter never failed to make medal winners out of every gymnast she worked with. I spent 12 years watching her coach my daughter, and discussing training subjects with her and her protege.

You are right, Gymnastics IS a different skill set altogether, however, those skills are best taught in a certain way, and that *way* works great with ANY physical skill, not just gymnastics.

It is a teaching formula. To use it for martial arts, you just unplug the gymnastics skills, and then plug in the MA skills in thier place and it works wonders.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Not true at all, you are thinking of the Russian Olympic model. The Romanians have a different approach all together. Thier methods are based on the most over all efficient skill development, and incorporation of conditioning that is nearly identical too the skill itself. They recognize need for recovery time, and not pushing to excess.

The Romanian coach who trained my daughter never failed to make medal winners out of every gymnast she worked with. I spent 12 years watching her coach my daughter, and discussing training subjects with her and her protege.

You are right, Gymnastics IS a different skill set altogether, however, those skills are best taught in a certain way, and that *way* works great with ANY physical skill, not just gymnastics.

It is a teaching formula. To use it for martial arts, you just unplug the gymnastics skills, and then plug in the MA skills in thier place and it works wonders.

Ok.
To each their own.

[MasterKiller]

Reply]
Not true at all, you are thinking of the Russian Olympic model. The Romanians have a different approach all together. Thier methods are based on using the most over all efficient skill development techniques, and incorporation of conditioning that is nearly identical too the skill itself. They recognize need for recovery time, and not pushing to excess.

So you are basically saying the sport model is the most efficent.

[Mulong]

Learning the mechanics or physiology of fighting takes a long time. You can have basic structure, which is usually a two-dimensional, i.e., block and strike, in a few lessons, but it doesn’t guarantee that it will work all the times, because each opponent will affect the outcome, as IKFMDC can chime in.

[Mulong]

After achieving proficient in the physiology on one particular style, you can easy learn another style, if they share the same physiology, e.g., longxingquan (dragon shape boxing) or baimeiquan (white eyebrow boxing).

Pardon me, for trying to revisit the original theme of the thread. :o

[lkfmdc]

there are only two kinds of human movement

those that are right, and those that are wrong

or, in martial arts, those that work, and those that don't

if you are training for like 5 years and can't easily pick up a technique/movement from another style, you have to ask yourself what sort of training you are receiving?

Mulong well remembers a time when people form various schools hung out togehter and worked out together and picked up stuff from eachother, EASILY

and, GASP, that is what our "masters" did back in China as well

honestly, the quality of instruction and material in TCMA has sunk so low, there is virtually no hope anymore

[Mulong]

Indeed, IKFMDC you are preaching the gossip, but few took the calling, because it popped a lot of myths.

It seems myth makes some feel secure like Linus with his blanket; knowledge it cold hearted. :(

[Mulong]

IKFMDC and I were privileged to a select group of individuals, who practice and taught what I later coined to be as pre-20th century martial arts, which was designed for one purpose.

In my humble opinion these individuals weren’t so happy with thier lives and had their had personal issues, i.e., demons. Hence, I realize that wasn’t the ideal path in today’s society. However, I do treasure what I learned, but I personally think I will never share that particular knowledge; killing is not all that.

[lkfmdc]

IKFMDC and I were privileged to a select group of individuals, who practice and taught what I later coined to be as pre-20th century martial arts, which was designed for one purpose.

In my humble opinion these individuals weren’t so happy with thier lives and had their had personal issues, i.e., demons. Hence, I realize that wasn’t the ideal path in today’s society. However, I do treasure what I learned, but I personally think I will never share that particular knowledge; killing is not all that.

In my case, I took what really mattered, principles and movement and experiences and just "MODERNIZED" it.... anyone who really studied with my teacher would easily find his techniques, signatures and strategies in what I do today.

I also dropped off all the extra baggage that was unnecessary

[Mulong]

IKFMDC, Chan Shifu was one of a kind; miss that old salty dog.

[lkfmdc]

IKFMDC, Chan Shifu was one of kind; miss that old salty dog.

Is sort of hard to take many of the posters here seriously after having spent like 16 years with CTS ;)

[Mulong]

I know the feeling; Chan Shifu wasn’t about myths; hence, few got where he was coming from.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is sort of hard to take many of the posters here seriously after having spent like 16 years with CTS ;)

CTS was obviously a glorified kickboxer

[lkfmdc]

I know the feeling; Chan Shifu wasn’t about myths; hence, few got where he was coming from.

If people think I stirr this place up, could you imagein CTS speaking English with a computer :eek:

;)

[lkfmdc]

CTS was obviously a glorified kickboxer

yeah, definitely ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what the true issue is, don't you?
being Special.
See, many wanna believe they are doing somethign special, something unique, something that only a selected few have access too and as such, it must be the REAL deal.
Of course the paradox is that those that have had access to the real deal know that the only real deal is blood (usually yours), sweat (always yours) and tears( yep, yous too).

[lkfmdc]

Martial Arts are like religion, people are taught a dogma that most of the time they can neither experience nor prove. If you come along and tell them it is all crap, they have violent reactions

In TCMA, the defense mechanism is to say "well, you haven't seen the real stuff". Even when a kung fu guy gets snapped in two by a guy who has a year's training, you can always say "that wasn't a REAL kung fu guy!"

DENILE is a miraculous thing, really it is

The TRUTH, which most people can't handle, is that Chan tai San, as real as they got, with real insider knowledge, with real fighting experience, was the FIRST ONE to call all the crap exactly what it was

And he wasn't the only one! Look up the Taiwan newspaper interview with Chang Dung Sheng (Shuai Jiao) and read his comments about chi, chi kung, iron palm, dim mak etc.... in summary, Chang said "if I can touch you, I can hurt you" and strangely no real masters ever stepped up to prove him wrong :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Martial Arts are like religion, people are taught a dogma that most of the time they can neither experience nor prove. If you come along and tell them it is all crap, they have violent reactions

In TCMA, the defense mechanism is to say "well, you haven't seen the real stuff". Even when a kung fu guy gets snapped in two by a guy who has a year's training, you can always say "that wasn't a REAL kung fu guy!"

DENILE is a miraculous thing, really it is

The TRUTH, which most people can't handle, is that Chan tai San, as real as they got, with real insider knowledge, with real fighting experience, was the FIRST ONE to call all the crap exactly what it was

And he wasn't the only one! Look up the Taiwan newspaper interview with Chang Dung Sheng (Shuai Jiao) and read his comments about chi, chi kung, iron palm, dim mak etc.... in summary, Chang said "if I can touch you, I can hurt you" and strangely no real masters ever stepped up to prove him wrong :rolleyes:

Yeah, I agree.
The other issue is living via the past exploits of others.
See, this is where I respect what you have done Dave, though we don't always see eye-to-eye on things, you have made your mark and not just rested on the laurels of CTS.
I never understood those that say that their teacher did this or can do this or that some long dead sifu did this, what does that have to do with you?
ZERO.

[lkfmdc]

CTS had thousands of students and a good portion of them thought they were great and could fight becasue CTS was great and could fight

Guess what? Most of them couldn't fight, they weren't great

Did CTS just sit back because Wong Yan Lam had won the Lei Tai challenge? NO. CTS was great because of what CTS did. Not because of Wong Yan Lam or Jyu Chyuhn

Want to prove your stuff works? FIGHT!

I don't just say that CTS material works in fights because CTS engaged in fights. I say it because we take that material on the mat, in teh ring and in the cage all the time....

[Mulong]

Personally I don’t live behind the shadow or dare I say the skirts of any of my Shifus, who I highly respect for the knowledge they shared with me; I stand for my own merit.

The secret is simply not a secret; it all about practice! We never master anything, we simply become proficient.

This reminds me of a quote that I read:

“… I was interviewing Yehudi Menuhin: and as he began talking about the violin, it was as if her were speaking quite literally of the ceaselessly desirable love of his life. He was telling me how the shape of the instrument was so beautiful, how the shape of the instrument was so beautiful, how he never tired of handling it, or hearing it, of testing his ability to draw more out of it than ever had before.”-Nat Hentoff

Hence, a martial artist walks the same path; he is always trying to see what else lies within that well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I don’t live behind the shadow or dare I say the skirts of any of my Shifus, who I highly respect for the knowledge they shared with me; I stand for my own merit.

The secret is simply not a secret; it all about practice! We never master anything, we simply become proficient.

This reminds me of a quote that I read:

“… I was interviewing Yehudi Menuhin: and as he began talking about the violin, it was as if her were speaking quite literally of the ceaselessly desirable love of his life. He was telling me how the shape of the instrument was so beautiful, how the shape of the instrument was so beautiful, how he never tired of handling it, or hearing it, of testing his ability to draw more out of it than ever had before.”-Nat Hentoff

Hence, a martial artist walks the same path; he is always trying to see what else lies within that well.

Very well put.

[SimonM]

Beat me to it.:D

Functional is a whole different ballgame than whatever modality you cater the term master with.

Often they are not even equal in description. Meaning you can have some sort of mechanical mastery of an art form, the same as would a trained dancer, but not be able to apply anything you know in a real world context.

I'm getting pretty functional in some arts... my throws have actually improved dramatically in the last 2 months - now with the JJ on the schedule maybe my ground game will catch up... and yet, despite the fact that I've been pretty serious about martial arts for the last eightish years now and off and on previously prior to that... I'd never call myself a master.

IKFMDC: Reading your most recent posts I just felt I should mention an important point you made which I think should be highlighted.

It's not the accomplishments of the teacher that make the martial artist. It's the accomplishments of the student himself.

[SimonM]

Bullsh1t sychophantic myth.

In some cases it is. In others there is some veracity. Certainly, IN china, a lot of the hardcore brawlers went underground in the sixties when China became very hostile to pugilists. In North America on the other hand...

Yeah, those who have the skills mostly open schools. And their half-assed students open up more schools and disseminate crap based on misunderstanding and mistakes.

[cjurakpt]

If people think I stirr this place up, could you imagein CTS speaking English with a computer :eek:;)
I believe John describes that in Revelations as one of the Seven Signs of the Apocalypse...



CTS had thousands of students and a good portion of them thought they were great and could fight becasue CTS was great and could fight
Guess what? Most of them couldn't fight, they weren't great
Did CTS just sit back because Wong Yan Lam had won the Lei Tai challenge? NO. CTS was great because of what CTS did. Not because of Wong Yan Lam or Jyu Chyuhn
Want to prove your stuff works? FIGHT!
I don't just say that CTS material works in fights because CTS engaged in fights. I say it because we take that material on the mat, in teh ring and in the cage all the time....
training w/CTS was basically an object lesson in having every myth about what "traditional" CMA was about and how "traditional" sifu are supposed to act; he wasn't a slave to ideology, he was about functionality; spending a day with him was to have yur preconceived idealised notions blown away; isn't it a coiincidence that those of us trained by him have a very anti-establishment perspective on TCMA? it's because of how he taught us, without preconception, w/out fantasy-land musings - it was all about direct applicability; sure, he had a wide range of stuff - but he had his core techniques - a combo of the things that worked best for him as well as, I think, what worked on him by oher people! so many people who claim that they learn traditionally just have no idea what it was like - driving him around, hanging out in his house, chasing him around with alcohol swabs when he re-used acupuncture needles on people (my personal favorite...);
there was never any attempt to pigeon hole anyone based on ideology - his approach was to look at your body type and skill level and teach you based on what he felt would be most useful to you; and yes, he could be disorganized - a blessing in a way, it made us all work harder to figure out things, and as a result, we got really good at pickig up new things fast and understanding their usage, sometimes better than the peeps we "borrowed" it from...

[SoCo KungFu]

Of course the paradox is that those that have had access to the real deal know that the only real deal is blood (usually yours), sweat (always yours) and tears( yep, yous too).

hmmm...I'm not sure I've cried yet....maybe....I have been hit a number of times hard enough to make snot start flying out intermixed with a few CC's of blood....hard to tell when you have more than one body fluid coming out at once....
Is it ok if I substitute one mucous membrane for another?



chasing him around with alcohol swabs when he re-used acupuncture needles on people

HAHA oh man that's good stuff! Theres that snot again all over my keyboard....man now I gotta get another glass of tea too....

[Mulong]

Cjurakpt and lkfmdc always admired you guys, because you had to learn Taishanese to be able to communicate with him. I fondly recall bumping into him in Chinatown and speaking to me in Taishanese; forgetting that I didn't speak it; it was a blast.

Also, recalling the time he told Doc Fai Wong that Jason Wong, should be doing eight diagram pole in tournament, when it was hongjiagunshu (great family staff skill) not a cailifogunshu.

[SoCo KungFu]

See man, this thread is starting to be like the other thread from a while back. You guys start talking about your time with CTS...That's cool you know...

I mean, I know most people probably will never understand the interrelationships you guys are speaking of between you and CTS as well as with each other. I only get a basic grasp...not necessarily just talking the kung fu discussion, but the experiences in general...

Guess it just comes from the first hand...

I dunno, guess it just makes me a little homesick...the kung fu home per se...

I just remember how sifu would tell stories like that...

One was about when he and Sigung used to train Pai Lum. Sigung was under Daniel Pai back before his passing and sigung moved into mantis. Some crazy stuff...They'd be out at some bar or club and D. Pai would make sigung do something weird like Gung Gee in the middle of the dance floor, just to see what drunk would get up and try to fight with em....

Oh when Sifu Saleem would talk about his days with Frank Yee. Talk about how he wasn't really the "hold your hand" personality, wouldn't even really speak with sifu. But he'd be talking how it'd be nothing for him to be training and in would come Leung Shum or Buk Sam Kong.

Its probably cheesy sentiment but its hard in some ways to not to feel like I'm missing out on something. I'm really enjoying BJJ. I wish I could do more with my kung fu but in Charleston...there's just nothing.

Its just cool I guess. You guys got to taste something of an era that is probably on its way in passing. Not sure who will really pick up that torch tho ya know? Certainly not nearly enough people who could do it. Or would do it...

Talk about "genuine?" Talk about the "real deal?" Man you lucky in this day and age to find "satisfactory."

[Mulong]

SoCo Kungfu you are truly right some of us were very fortunate to have been in epicenter of something truly unique, which is truly hard to explain to others; hence, you had to be there to understand. Therefore, I do apologize if some of us get a bit nostalgic; maybe it is because we are getting older and appreciate those subtle things that now have faded away.

Indeed we saw that last of the ember; that generation is slowly fading away. I’m referring to the generation of instructors, who learn their skills or trade prior to1949; actually even before that, which I refer to as pre-20th century Chinese martial arts, i.e., before the creation of Jingwu or Goushu, when the arts were taught within a family structure for person protection, not recreation/health per se. :(

[Becca]

I'always wondered.....

If only the "older, wiser" know what it's truely like; if the "passing of the generation of instructors" is the end of an era; why is it that what is hapening now is considered sub-par? Do you supose some rather pompus sounding group once said these things to you? And before that, said it to those born befor 1949?

I guess I'm one of those who see life as one big reoccuring circle. Everything ebs and flows. If it makes you old ****s feel good to let me know in minut detail how dumb I am for forming my own opinions, or for agreeing with the opinions of someone you might not have, so be it. I hope I will not be as insufferable once I get into my 40s and 50s.....

[SimonM]

There are some factors that have adversely effected martial arts in the last century. There are also some factors that have helped restore the martial arts somewhat.

1) Pacification of civilian populations - Nations, across the world, have taken dramatic steps to reduce or minimize civilian violence over the course of the 20th century. This has been especially relevant in the second half of the 20th century. This problem has been especially hard on CMA as China has been particularly active in discouraging pugilism in civilian populations until recently. It has also all-but killed a lot of traditional European martial arts except for those that most entirely transitioned into sport.

2) Mass Media - This has been a mixed blessing. Although mass media outlets like movies, television and the internet have been a boon to popularizing martial arts they have also become a significant outlet for disemination of misinformation that has been harmful. An example: we know who Ashida Kim is. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some factors that have adversely effected martial arts in the last century. There are also some factors that have helped restore the martial arts somewhat.

1) Pacification of civilian populations - Nations, across the world, have taken dramatic steps to reduce or minimize civilian violence over the course of the 20th century. This has been especially relevant in the second half of the 20th century. This problem has been especially hard on CMA as China has been particularly active in discouraging pugilism in civilian populations until recently. It has also all-but killed a lot of traditional European martial arts except for those that most entirely transitioned into sport.

2) Mass Media - This has been a mixed blessing. Although mass media outlets like movies, television and the internet have been a boon to popularizing martial arts they have also become a significant outlet for disemination of misinformation that has been harmful. An example: we know who Ashida Kim is. :p
And don't forget the reluctence of people to actually FIGHT with their MA and to live vicariously through the exploits of either their teacher or some long dead masters.

[Mulong]

I have been contemplating a hypothesis for a few months with some of my colleagues; ‘how many hours does someone trains within their respected wuguan (martial building)?’

I recall when I was active in my first guan; I put in usually 30+ hours a week for at least six years straight; in my opinion you don’t see that dedication in present students. (I do hope I’m wrong; maybe Ten Tigers or IKFMDC can be helpful.) Hence, I wonder how many hours the generation before me placed into their training, when there was even less distractions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have been contemplating a hypothesis for a few months with some of my colleagues; ‘how many hours does someone trains within their respected wuguan (martial building)?’

I recall when I was active in my first guan; I put in usually 30+ hours a week for at least six years straight; in my opinion you don’t see that dedication in present students. (I do hope I’m wrong; maybe Ten Tigers or IKFMDC can be helpful.) Hence, I wonder how many hours the generation before me placed into their training, when there was even less distractions.

When you have a LIFE, that kind of time in is impossible.
When I was younger, sure, not now with a full time job/business to run, with a family (two kids, a wife and a dog ;) ), with the indescretions of youth catching up, no way dude.
I recall when I was younger going everyday, 3 hours a day and even all day Saturdays.
Impossible now.
Not needed too, for a beginner, probably 10 hours a week is more then enough.

[SimonM]

And don't forget the reluctence of people to actually FIGHT with their MA and to live vicariously through the exploits of either their teacher or some long dead masters.

True enough, however that is, I doubt, something unique to the twentieth / twenty-first centuries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True enough, however that is, I doubt, something unique to the twentieth / twenty-first centuries.

Perhaps, but those very people are more vocal and in great quantities now.

[IronWeasel]

I have been contemplating a hypothesis for a few months with some of my colleagues; ‘how many hours does someone trains within their respected wuguan (martial building)?’

I recall when I was active in my first guan; I put in usually 30+ hours a week for at least six years straight; in my opinion you don’t see that dedication in present students. (I do hope I’m wrong; maybe Ten Tigers or IKFMDC can be helpful.) Hence, I wonder how many hours the generation before me placed into their training, when there was even less distractions.




Once I made it through the Basics, I trained for 4-5 hours a day, 6 days a week...for a year. Not alone, there was an instructor and a class every evening. I made great progress during that time, but I was younger and my schedule was wide open.

I feel that maximum time should be dedicated to really ingrain the training (of each type of skillset) in the beginning. Once you have it down, it requires less time to Maintain the skills at that level, so that a 'modern' schedule can accomodate your training over the long run.