Links between Tai Tzu, Tongbei, Chen taiji and Shaolin?

[kal]

Hi, I am pretty confused about the links between Tai Tzu, Tongbei, Chen taiji and Shaolin.

I read some opinions that Chen taiji came from something called Tai Tzu, and other places I read that it came from Shaolin.

Also, I've seen opinions that Tongbei is where Shaolin and Tai Tzu come from.

Is there anywhere I can find a quick summary of the links between these arts?

And BTW is Tai Tzu the same thing as Long Fist? Is it connected to the Long Fist we have today, for example that of Yang Jwing Ming?

And where exactly does Tan Tui fit into the whole thing?

[mickey]

Greetings,

I remember reading that Tong Bei practitioners acknowledge that Tan Tui comes from them. The only branch of Tan Tui that I know of (and I do not know much) that makes an ape connection is the method maintained by Grandmaster Chan Pui of Wah Lum.


mickey

[sha0lin1]

Hi, I am pretty confused about the links between Tai Tzu, Tongbei, Chen taiji and Shaolin.

I read some opinions that Chen taiji came from something called Tai Tzu, and other places I read that it came from Shaolin.

Also, I've seen opinions that Tongbei is where Shaolin and Tai Tzu come from.

Is there anywhere I can find a quick summary of the links between these arts?

And BTW is Tai Tzu the same thing as Long Fist? Is it connected to the Long Fist we have today, for example that of Yang Jwing Ming?

And where exactly does Tan Tui fit into the whole thing?


My Master maintains and believes that Tai Chi was developed at Shaolin along with Tong Bei and Tai Tzu. Sorry though, I can't tell you which gave rise to which though. As far as Tai Tzu is concerned, the full name is Tai Tzu Chang Quan, more commonly known as Traditional Long Fist. I have heard two stories on its development. In the first, a group of famous masters came together at Shaolin to develop the ultimate fighting style, they pooled their knowledge together and Tai Tzu was what resulted. In the second, an emperor was studying at Shaolin in the 1500's, his name was Zhao Tai Tzu, and he created the style. This version is the one Meir Shahar documents in his book.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and I know some of the evolution, so i can shed some light on this.


First there are several Tai tzu styles. The original was developed by Zhao Kuang Yin during his time as a military general during the Five dynasties period. His style was known as Flood fist, and is a consolidation of every style he knew at the time.

Being a Military General, the greatest influence on his Flood Fist set was the military Tong Bei he did. However, there are also the styles of Monkey, six Step Fist and Hua Fist that influenced his style.

Later after he ascended the throne (960 AD, not 1500's) and ushered in the Sung Dynasty, Zhao sent his Generals to Shaolin to teach them the military arts of the time. All in all there were 18 styles represented by 16 masters who were there over 9 years, and 2 who were not but who's arts were represented by others. Zhao Kunag Yin being one of those two, and another general who was killed in battle being the other.

It is said that the monks started with Zhao's style, so he would have been the first Master, but he was not there at the time due to running the country. Having previously taught his set to shaolin before becoming Emperor, he didn't have to be there.

The set they developed was in his honor and is called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. This set, and his previously taught Flood fist set, as well as one developed from his personal notes, were combined into the style known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

In addition to the 3 core sets, the style also has Zhao's monkey form that he was famous for. He didn't develop it, but learned it from elsewhere and was well known for it, so it is part of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan style since the Sung dynasty.

So so far we see how Tong Bei and several other arts practiced by Zhao Kuang Yin got compiled into the style known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at Shaolin from either Zhao Kuang Yin himself when he went to teach there, and later his top generals when he sent them after becomming Emperor in 960AD.

From there a number of styles at Shaolin descended from tai tzu, like Xiao Hong Quan. Everybody knows this style as "Little red Boxing". It has the 2 road Xiao Hong Form, and the Da Hong Quan form that is seen everywhere.

Now, on to Chen Taiji. If you look at how Chen Taiji is constructed, it actually contains the complete Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form inside of it (The shaolin one developed by Zhao Kuang Yin's generals). I am also told that it has sections of the Xiao Hong Quan form are in it's sets as well. I have not looked for that myself though.

This means that Chen Taiji is built on Shaolin preserved Tai tzu Chang Chuan, which is heavily influenced by Tang dynasty era military Tong Bei quan.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My Master maintains and believes that Tai Chi was developed at Shaolin along with Tong Bei and Tai Tzu. Sorry though, I can't tell you which gave rise to which though. As far as Tai Tzu is concerned, the full name is Tai Tzu Chang Quan, more commonly known as Traditional Long Fist.

Reply]
Sort of correct. it was developed at Chen Village by Chen Wang Ting form Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and several other styles that descended from it.

Tong Bei is said to be thousands of years old, and was incorporated INTO Shaolin during the early Sung dynasty, or shortly prior to it.

As for also being considered Traditional long Fist, yes, it is, however it is only one of many Traditional long fist styles preserved at Shaolin and the surrounding area.

Tai tzu is only the core sets of Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Lao Hong Quan (Old Flood fist), Da Hong Quan (Grand Flood Fist) and the monkey set.

You might be able to throw a Hua Fist and Six stance fist in ther too if you can find a pre sung dynasty example of them, but barring that, this sums up the Tai tzu curriculum. all other Traditional long Fist are thier own thing and should be recognized as such rather than lumped into one big catagory in my opinion.

I have heard two stories on its development. In the first, a group of famous masters came together at Shaolin to develop the ultimate fighting style, they pooled their knowledge together and Tai Tzu was what resulted.

Reply]
That would be the set developed when Zhao Kuang Yin sent his Generals to Shaolin to teach. It is the first set taught in the curriculem.


In the second, an emperor was studying at Shaolin in the 1500's, his name was Zhao Tai Tzu, and he created the style. This version is the one Meir Shahar documents in his book.

Reply]
Ok, there is a confusion here. You are confusing two different Tai tzu styles.

First, let me explain what Tai Tzu means. it is not a name, but a title given to the founder of a dynasty. So there is noon named Zhao Tai tzu. Zhao was his surname, and Tai tzu is his title given by his descendants after he died. His name was Zhao Kuang Yin, and he was the great ancestor of the Sung dynasty, or the "Sung, Tai Tzu" (Ie sung's great ancestor, or founder for short)

Now that we have that straight, Zhao Kunag yin (Sung Tai Tzu) lived from 927Ad to 976 AD and ascended the throne in 960 AD. he was killed by his brother who took the throne from him in 976.

The Tai tzu developed in the 1500's is a TOTALLY unrelated style created by the MING Tai tzu, or the founder of the Ming dynasty. It has nothing to do with Tong bei, Sung Tai tzu Chang Chuan or Taiji at all.

It is some sort of Tiger style if I am not mistaken. It is only called Tai tzu because the creator was the Tai Tzu of the Ming dynasty same as Zhao Kuang Yin's Flood Fist style is called tai tzu because he founded the Sung dynasty. Both styles are named after the fact that thier creator's founded dynasties. the styles them selves are not at all related.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To add to the confusion, there are still more tai tzu styles. Shandong for instance has a number of Shaolin derived Long Fist styles that are not Zhao Kuang Yin's tai tzu at all, BUT they descended from styles that came from styles that evolved from the original tai tzu, so they are named Tai Tzu in honor of thier roots despite being technically different than the actual Tai Tzu style.

Some are actually mixes of some sort of Shaolin Long Fist and Moslem styles like Cha Fist and thus even more removed from the original source. The tai tzu name in these is completely Honarary to the roots of long fist in general and may or may not be referring to Zhao Kuang Yin at all (It depends on the line and thier observed origin).

In addition to that, there is a SOUTHERN Tai Jow (Tai Tzu) style said to have either come from the Southern Sung dynasties military basic training, or the Zhao family when they ruled the Southern Sung dynasty (Who knows at this point, my research is incomplete)

In addition to THAT addition, there are styles not even remotely related to any of this called Tai Tzu because they are the root of other newer styles. Tai tzu Crane comes to mind for this example. It has nothing to do with any emperor, founding of a dynasty at all. It is simply the "Great ancestor" to other younger crane styles.

In this case however, we are talking about Zhao Kuang Yin's Tai tzu style, developed between his birth in 927 AD, and when he took the throne in 960 AD, with additions added after 960 by Shaolin through the creation of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form made there by his Generals over the course of 9 years, and later the development of the Da Hong set from his notes.

The evolutionary line goes like this ---->Ancient Military Tong Bei---->Zhao Kuang Yin's Flood fist style which became Shaolin Tai tzu Chang Chuan----->Xiao Hong Chuan and others---->Chen Taiji Quan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where does Thunder Taiji fit into all this?

[Royal Dragon]

I really don't know. Isn't that some sort of Baiji maybe?

Unfortunetly I have a hard enough time keeping the whole tai tzu thing straight .It gets quite confusing with all the evolutionary branches and 1000+ year time span.

We need Sal Canzonieri's input on this one.

[Royal Dragon]

As for Yang Jwing Ming's Tai tzu set, I think that came from master Liu Yun Qiao. I am not sure what it is exactly, but to me it looks like some sort of village long fist done slow like Taiji Quan. It's not the Tai tzu related to Taiji but it may very well be a Long Fist branch related to the Tai tzu that is.

Remember, by the time Taiji came around, Tai tzu was already 600 pr 700 years old. there were a lot of branches by then.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi;

I made a giant chart in pdf format, being published in China and here in this magazine's online edition very soon.

The chart column by column matches up each set of all these different systems and shows exactly how they are all essentially doing the same set.

So, you can see how the material evolved from Tong Bei to Shaolin Rou Quan to Tai Zu Chang Quan, to Shaolin Hong Quan to all the different Tai Ji Quans.

My website that has all my past martial arts history articles is here:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm

[B-Rad]

Where does Thunder Taiji fit into all this?
I think it's a stylistic twist through one of the Chen family branches.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Where does Thunder Taiji fit into all this?

Thunder TJQ is a variation branch of Zhao Bao TJQ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thunder TJQ is a variation branch of Zhao Bao TJQ.

Grazie. :D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren't correct:

I've been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

[Royal Dragon]

What brought this on?

[Sal Canzonieri]

What brought this on?

Some people are Assuming, and you know what they say about ASSuming.

[sha0lin1]

So this weekend I asked my Master to expound upon the Shaolin/Chen Tai Chi creation and how this was so. His response to me was that at the time of Tai Chi's creation the Abbot at the Wu Dang Temple (he did not give me a name and I was tired from my workout and forgot to ask) had started out as a Shaolin Monk and as such was well versed in Shaolin Wushu. The movements and stances in Chen Tai Chi all come from traditional Shaolin forms, probably the forms mentioned in the thread title. Now by this he doesn't mean all of them just the foundation for them. Anyway if anyone here has practiced Shaolin Tai Chi, in my opinion it is very similar to Chen.

[Royal Dragon]

Shi Yan Ming says Shaolin's Taji CAME from Chen style.

Which is kind of ironic because Chen style ultimately came from Shaolin...it's a feed back loop.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin also has a set called Chan Tai Ji, it was brought there in the mid or late Qing Dynasty by a woman who studied Wu Dang Tai Ji and she mixed it with Shaolin movements from their main sets.

It's not at all like the Chen derived Shaolin Tai Ji that they do now.

[LFJ]

the taijiquan i've seen shi yanming and others do actually is chen style.

the shaolin taijiquan that we do that looks similar to chen style is called shaolin mianquan- cotton boxing.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the taijiquan i've seen shi yanming and others do actually is chen style.

the shaolin taijiquan that we do that looks similar to chen style is called shaolin mianquan- cotton boxing.

Any place I can see this mian quan? I'd like to see if it is the same as their Rou Quan (soft boxing).

I know that many of the monks do actual Chen TJQ, since it is close to Shaolin.

Not many do Shaolin Chan TJQ anymore.

I did some some videos of it on goggle videos. Look up Shaolin tai ji or Chan tai ji

[LFJ]

master deyang's school is the only place i've ever seen it. they do it in their group performances a lot. someone posted it up on youtube from one of their demo dvds. but their account has been canceled. so all their videos are lost.

if you can see their demo dvds its on there, just labeled shaolin taijiquan. but the actual name used at the school is mianquan.

its not like rouquan at all. i'm not certain of its origin, but it looks very much like a mixture of movements from chen style and shaolin taizu changquan. the postures are more exaggerated.

[Sal Canzonieri]

master deyang's school is the only place i've ever seen it. they do it in their group performances a lot. someone posted it up on youtube from one of their demo dvds. but their account has been canceled. so all their videos are lost.

if you can see their demo dvds its on there, just labeled shaolin taijiquan. but the actual name used at the school is mianquan.

its not like rouquan at all. i'm not certain of its origin, but it looks very much like a mixture of movements from chen style and shaolin taizu changquan. the postures are more exaggerated.

Which demo DVD? Can you show me an image of the cover?
I will see if I have it.

[LFJ]

you can see a video here:

http://www.russbo.tv/video/view_video.php?viewkey=a5425d6965fbd4c8fbe1

its not very clear with the lighting and the camera is moving around. but thats it. the hosts talk about it, saying its one of the earliest created forms and is spread all over china from henan. but you'll notice a lot of taizu changquan/ chen style type movements. i'll definitely have to ask about this one.

also its on these discs in slightly abbreviated versions:

http://plumpub.com/images/VCD2/vcd581.jpg
3rd disc here: http://plumpub.com/images/VCD2/vcd716.jpg

[sha0lin1]

Its on The Original Boxing Tree of Traditional Shaolin Kung Fu series, the title is Appreciation of Shaolin Kung Fu and the demo is a group performance of it on disc #3. This is the version I learned from my Master and he just called it Shaolin Tai Ji.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I can't get that Russbo video link to work, keeps timing out. Oops, okay, it's working now.
Hmm, yeah, I see TZ Chang Yi Lu and Chen yi Lu movements in it. I have to look into this more.

Here's various Shaolin taiji videos:

Here is Shaolin CHAN TJQ:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8955573882306813918

Here's Shaolin's version of CHEN TJQ:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-680290769183785622

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's video of the Mian Quan style:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=970834130536700069

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't get that Russbo video link to work, keeps timing out. Oops, okay, it's working now.
Hmm, yeah, I see TZ Chang Yi Lu and Chen yi Lu movements in it. I have to look into this more.

Here's various Shaolin taiji videos:

Here is Shaolin CHAN TJQ:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8955573882306813918

Here's Shaolin's version of CHEN TJQ:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-680290769183785622

Sometimes I worry about the plethora of shaolin masters and the validity of their "martial arts".

[LFJ]

sal-

i dont know anything about that particular mianquan style you linked to. but i see no difference in the "chan" style taijiquan from any other chen style set.

as i understood it, the chen style taijiquan practiced in shaolin is in fact nothing more than chen style taijiquan, but its only called "chan" style in shaolin to differentiate the practice aim- which is chan buddhist training.

sha0lin1-

who is your master? its interesting because as i said i've only seen this shaolin mianquan (cotton boxing) done at master deyang's school. in their performances its almost always a separate abbreviated version of the set.

[sha0lin1]

sal-

i dont know anything about that particular mianquan style you linked to. but i see no difference in the "chan" style taijiquan from any other chen style set.

as i understood it, the chen style taijiquan practiced in shaolin is in fact nothing more than chen style taijiquan, but its only called "chan" style in shaolin to differentiate the practice aim- which is chan buddhist training.

sha0lin1-

who is your master? its interesting because as i said i've only seen this shaolin mianquan (cotton boxing) done at master deyang's school. in their performances its almost always a separate abbreviated version of the set.


My Master is Shi Xing Ying. When I learned it he just called it Shaolin Tai Ji, he did not give me a specific form name, he just said it was the Temples version of Tai Ji. This is not something he teaches to the general public, he teaches them Yang or Chen. Next time I see him I will ask if this form has a specific name.

[LFJ]

thats awesome. :)

yeah, sure. ask him about shaolin mianquan (cotton boxing).

[sha0lin1]

thats awesome. :)

yeah, sure. ask him about shaolin mianquan (cotton boxing).


LFJ, I asked him this weekend. He said that Shaolin Tai Ji is known as Shaolin Tai Ji and there is the 24 posture and 42 posture forms of it. I asked him about Mian Quan but he did not seem to understand because he kept telling me I already knew Lian Huan Quan..ha ha. So I asked him about Cotton Boxing and he looked at me really strange. I don't know maybe my Texmandarin was confusing him. Shifu speaks good English now but he sometimes has trouble.

[LFJ]

we know they are the same sets we're talking about anyhow.

it sounds to me that the name shaolin "taiji" would be a secular understanding of "internal" styles applied generically to shaolin's "version", simply calling it "shaolin taiji" without taking note of the difference with shaolin/ buddhism and other systems.

having a less generic name like "mianquan" would help narrow the historical search. but i have only just now heard of it being practiced outside of master deyang's school.

so i guess that helps a bit, but the name "shaolin taiji" probably wont get very far on its own.

thanks for your contribution, btw. :)