How Relevant is Chi Sao?

[Zhang Yong Chun]

To all of the Wing Chun Family:
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How relevant is Chi Sao these days in your training?
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I'm sure it depends upon your goals. Some schools do nothing but Chi Sao drills. Other schools treat it as a part of a well-rounded education. Yet others, eschew it all together --(but can you call that "Wing Chun"?).

Is Chi Sao a great drill for training at a specific range or is it an antiquated exercise of limited application in modern times?

I'm sure many of us thought that "Mastering" Chi Sao would make us Unbeatable Fighters.

In the ring and competition, competitors often wear gloves and pads that limit or restrict what the hands can do, so tournament experiences cannot be the only arbiter of Chi Sao's value. While learning to read energy and your opponent, control balance, and improve eye-hand coordination are always important fighting attributes, how important is Chi Sao to what you do?

Let the flames begin...

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's as relevant as you make it.

[k gledhill]

it is the soul of the system..easy to do wrong. and like you mention become chi-sao warriors, who meet elbows in the air no straight lines , they ingrained the idea of standing in a basic stance with 2 arms extended turning to fight the arms ...all the time they are in center :D OUUucuhhh ! or worse the straight line center of mass attacker with a devastating chain punch :rolleyes: :D

lin sil di da

[Ultimatewingchun]

Part of a well rounded education.

Keep in mind that there are thousands-upon-thousands of great fighters who wouldn't know the difference between a chi sao and a slice of Pennsylvania cheese.

That should bring any chi sao king back down to earth. :D

[stonecrusher69]

To all of the Wing Chun Family:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How relevant is Chi Sao these days in your training?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it depends upon your goals. Some schools do nothing but Chi Sao drills. Other schools treat it as a part of a well-rounded education. Yet others, eschew it all together --(but can you call that "Wing Chun"?).

Is Chi Sao a great drill for training at a specific range or is it an antiquated exercise of limited application in modern times?

I'm sure many of us thought that "Mastering" Chi Sao would make us Unbeatable Fighters.

In the ring and competition, competitors often wear gloves and pads that limit or restrict what the hands can do, so tournament experiences cannot be the only arbiter of Chi Sao's value. While learning to read energy and your opponent, control balance, and improve eye-hand coordination are always important fighting attributes, how important is Chi Sao to what you do?

Let the flames begin...

Do chi sao with someone who is very good at it then ask the same question again..

[cjurakpt]

chi sao, like push hands, is predicated on a certain degree of agreement between the participants, the most obvious being that they will begin in a certain range (and stay there) with a certain type of contact (and maintain it); like any "short range" exercise, it is valuable because it teaches you to keep your cool when someone is up in your face, and it increases reliance on proprioceptive awareness / decreases reliance on visual feedback, meaning that you don't "waste" time getting two different organ systems to agree on something (e.g. - how to manage an attack), cutting down neural processing and response time

having trained this, one then, naturally, has to back off and start from different ranges / at different levels of "contact" (e.g. - distant eye contact to wedged together in a crowded subway) and then try to apply that skill set in "live" situations;

BTW, this sort of skill can certainly be achieved in ways other than chi sao...

[HardWork8]

To all of the Wing Chun Family:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How relevant is Chi Sao these days in your training?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it depends upon your goals. Some schools do nothing but Chi Sao drills. Other schools treat it as a part of a well-rounded education. Yet others, eschew it all together --(but can you call that "Wing Chun"?).

Is Chi Sao a great drill for training at a specific range or is it an antiquated exercise of limited application in modern times?

I'm sure many of us thought that "Mastering" Chi Sao would make us Unbeatable Fighters.

In the ring and competition, competitors often wear gloves and pads that limit or restrict what the hands can do, so tournament experiences cannot be the only arbiter of Chi Sao's value. While learning to read energy and your opponent, control balance, and improve eye-hand coordination are always important fighting attributes, how important is Chi Sao to what you do?

Let the flames begin...

Chi sao is an extremely important part of Wing Chun as well as a few other kung fu styles. For me one of the most important aspects of this form of practice is that if practiced correctly it can elevate one's sensitivity and "listening" abilities beyond a superficial level and continue to do so to a very high level.

Correct Chi sao training contributes in the development of "liveness" in techniques. This is ability is one of the great weapons of kung fu.

This in tern implies "softness" that will enable one to stay sensitive and fast without losing "the hardness within".

In Siu Lam Wing Chun chi sao is practiced in the following ways. Stationary and then a mobile form of chi sao where exponents step when necessary so as to absorb an attack or to close the distance.

Practioners are not allowed to step back except in emergencies where one foot steps back and hands reclaim or control the central line and then the excersise continues.

So far I have learnt three variations of Chi Sao. First it is the one we all know and love, which uses strikes (open/closed hand strikes) with contact intensity increasing with the level of the students.

The Second type is the Kum na (la) Chi sao. Here the practitioners use Chin-na type techniques such as joint locks/manipulations and takedowns exclusively.

The third type is a very close range chi sao where the elbows are used primarily to attack the "gaps" inside the defense of the opponent.

No need to say that once all these types are mastered, then the exercise is combined where all 3 aspects are used at the same time.

As time goes by this Chi sao evolves into contact San sao. And by this time and throught the correct training the students are able to stand bareknuckle strikes to the body as well as use sensitivity and correct rooting to fight in the Wing Chun manner.

So to conclude, I can't see Wing Chun without chi sao being a fundemental part of training.:)

[unkokusai]

The Second type is the Kum na (la) Chi sao. Here the practitioners use Chin-na type techniques such as joint locks/manipulations and takedowns exclusively.




Excellent. Do you have any vid of this being employed against someone (not a 'chunner) well-trained and experienced in takedowns?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Part of a well rounded education.

Keep in mind that there are thousands-upon-thousands of great fighters who wouldn't know the difference between a chi sao and a slice of Pennsylvania cheese.

That should bring any chi sao king back down to earth. :D

Mmmmm, cheese...:D

[Wu Wei Wu]

chi sao, like push hands, is predicated on a certain degree of agreement between the participants, the most obvious being that they will begin in a certain range (and stay there) with a certain type of contact (and maintain it); like any "short range" exercise, it is valuable because it teaches you to keep your cool when someone is up in your face, and it increases reliance on proprioceptive awareness / decreases reliance on visual feedback, meaning that you don't "waste" time getting two different organ systems to agree on something (e.g. - how to manage an attack), cutting down neural processing and response time

having trained this, one then, naturally, has to back off and start from different ranges / at different levels of "contact" (e.g. - distant eye contact to wedged together in a crowded subway) and then try to apply that skill set in "live" situations;

BTW, this sort of skill can certainly be achieved in ways other than chi sao...

Excellent post. Right on point IMO!

Suki

[cjurakpt]

Part of a well rounded education.

Keep in mind that there are thousands-upon-thousands of great fighters who wouldn't know the difference between a chi sao and a slice of Pennsylvania cheese.

That should bring any chi sao king back down to earth. :D

I would add push-hands to that list as well...

[LoneTiger108]

It's as relevant as you make it.

That about sums it up for me too :D

[chisauking]

How relevant is your comprehension of wing chun in deciding how you train?

How relevant is unarmed combat when iron bars\hand guns are so readily available?

What’s the term when we answer a question with a question?


So many questions……so few answers

[tjwingchun]

I have the opening of a book on Chi Sau that I was writing for Yip Chun that was dedicated to Chi Sau some 20+ years ago I shall try to find it and publish it here I think the heading is "Chi Sau, the heart of Wing Chun" but I may be wrong, not on line much but will try to accomplish this within the next few days depending if I can find it on one of my saved discs lol

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chi sao is very relevant if one plans on using wing chun when fighting in very close quarters...

as long as the TRANSLATIONS are being made from chi sao DRILLING to actual combat/sparring/fighting applications...

on a regular basis.

Otherwise it's waaaay too easy to forget that NOBODY ever fights starting from a chi sao position and only working within the parameters of chi sao rules and conditions.

IT'S JUST A DRILL.....:cool:

[Vajramusti]

1,AFAICT- chi sao varies with different families- not all do the same things in the same way.

2,Wing chun is not the only way to defend oneself or fight. Was not a sport in it's roots.

3. Chi sao is NOT fighting but it is a fundamental nexus for developing skill and timing and control
in the uses of wing chun motions, flow, and combinations-not just in close quarters but in closing,
evading, circling, defending and attacking.

4. However, as most threads have shown, havinga serious and informative discussion of wing chun in net forums is not very productive.For that matter- it goes for discussions in many other styles as well. Net forums are generally about noise.

joy chaudhuri

[El_Nastro]

It took me a few years to get a handle on what Chi sao is, and just as importantly what it is not.

To understand Chi sau, we must understand the difference between fighting and practicing. The bottom line is, either you're fighting or you're training. Either 2 people are trying to actually beat the living tar out of one another, or they're not.

Every approach to fighting has some format in which to practice all of their skills against an opponent. Boxers spar, Tai Chi people have push hands, jiu jitsu guys wrestle around until someone taps, and Wing Chun has Chi sao. None of these things are bona fide fighting, but that's what you do to prepare for a real fight.

What Chi sao is not is merely a "sensitivity drill". You hear that a lot on the internet, and it's just not true...at least it shouldn't be true. If you're practicing Chi sao solely as a "sensitivity drill" you're missing the boat. Saying Chis sao is a "drill" is as accurate as saying sparring is a "drill".

Chi sao is a format in which to practice your skills, and can be done at any level of intensity you want, but if nobody ever gets bruised or bloody from time-to-time it's probably not helping you prepare (as much) for a real encounter and you should crank up the intensity.

[Lee Chiang Po]

From my point of view, chi sao is merely a tool. It has a life span. You start out with training one side then the other. Training to defend and attack with the same hand. This system works to give both partners an equal ability to train their defense and attack. It is something that is a cooperation between 2 people. Both being WC trainers. Then of course you start doing it with both hands. You learn to use your hands individually with equal skill. Like rubbing your belly and patting yourself on the head at the same time. Anything beyond that it becomes a game. It can develop a life of it's own too. And it can become one's WC completely. I was told not to become trapped in that way because it will only amount to being a childs game eventually. Use it for what it is good for and then discard it. Well, not completely, but do not let it take on a life of it's own.
It can not be of any help really when it comes to feeling an opponents intent unless you are actually touching him. In a fight with anyone that is a real fighter of some sort you will not be able to use this to feel intent. You will be doing well just to keep from catching it in the face.

[kwaichancan't]

As I've said on previous threads, I am a novice of WC, but her's my thoughts anyhoo:

I agree with the chap who said it depends on your goals. The point about the neural processing too, is enbtirely relevant for me. I'm fortunate to go to two different classes with two teachers who grew up together but have a differnt approach. One is very classical and chi sao oriented, the other is very applied and reality based ie how it would work now. A well rounded training.

For me, Chi Sao is a tool, a drill a game, but above all, and anyone who's read 'the unfettered mind' will know what I mean, it's a means of learning to avoid the 'abiding place'. Instant flow and response to whatever the situation throws at you not in response to whatever model or idea you're carrying. This is where kung fu and zen overlap for me, and as I can't sit still enough to meditate, it hits the spot beautifully.