All these movements are the same

[Sal Canzonieri]

There is a major movement/posture that seems to be in common, with slight variation (due to chronological and stylistic evolution), between all the following styles (in Chronological order):

Tong Bei Quan: Pi Shan Zhang - Split Mountain Palm
Shaolin Chan Yuan: Li Pi Hua Shan - Forcibily Split Hua Mountain
Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong: Lao Seng Pi Chai - Old Monk Splits Wood
Shaolin Yuan Hou Quan (Ape Monkey Fist): Shrink body Double Acknowledge Fingers - Su Shen Shang Ren Zhi
Shaolin Rou Quan 36: Turn Body Right, Plundering / Intercepting Hand - Zhuan Shen You Lu / Lan Shou
Yue Jia Quan and XY: Splitting Fist - Pi Quan
Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou - Strike Side Face Palm - Pu Mian Zhang
Hua Quan 18 Luohan: Ying Qia Suo - Eagle Seizes Gullet
Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan: Turn Face Right, Pulling Hand - Zhuan Lian You, Ban Shou
Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan: Turn Right, Face To Face Pulling Hand - Ying-Mian Ban
Chen TJQ Yi Lu: Lazy (Block) Tying Coat - Lan Zha Yi
Yang TJQ: Grasp Sparrow's Tail.

All these sets do this movement near their beginning as they turn to the right.

MOST of these sets follow it up that above movement with a variation of "Single Whip" and most of them call that next move "Single Whip" even if it looks different.

[Royal Dragon]

Is "face to face, pull hand single whip?"

[Sal Canzonieri]

Is "face to face, pull hand single whip?"

No, it is the face slap thing that happens as the second movement in the 32.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Royal, I have been learning the Yue Shi Ba Fan shou sets from a friend.

I have been able to find most of the TZ 32 in it, very easily, and some Lao Hong quan. The rest of 5 elements quan.

Very weird!

[Royal Dragon]

What is Yue Shi Ba Fan shou?

[Sal Canzonieri]

What is Yue Shi Ba Fan shou?

Watch these videos of this form (these are videos of the first section of 8 rows, there are 3 sections of 8 rows in total):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8
(this guy does with too fast with no whole body movement, but you can get the idea, if you slow it down and do the movements clearer it is obvious they are all also seen in TZ Chang Quan 32 and especially in the Lao Hong Quan 108.)

This guy does it better but too external

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtU2IauK9KQ

[Royal Dragon]

This guy does it better but too external

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtU2IauK9KQ

Reply]
External? Look again, watch his back and spine as he moves. This guy is about as internal as it gets. He has good open and close, one thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops everything stops. His power is derived form the core on every move, even when he just walks or stands there. Short of adding some spiraling and silk reeling type stuff, you just don't see internal this good too often. I think you are just not seeing it because of the white uniform, but look really close and it is clearly internal motion all the way.

As for the first set I see a number of things commonly found in the Southern Tai jow "Four Corners" form. I found that to be interesting..

[Royal Dragon]

[EDIT] - Ok, never mind. I see what you mean.

I looked at the rest of his clips and he is remarkably disconnected when he does his taiji like stuff. He's wiggling around his body but with no apparent connection to the move he is doing in many places. He looks much better in the first clip though. Maybe is his being too explosive to add all the none necessary stuff in.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.

I've been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan's 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.

I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He's the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.

[Sal Canzonieri]

eric hargrove;

Hi, can you tell me where to find any other vcds of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, besides the Shanxi 24 row one that is easy to find?

thanks!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Royal Gian;

First 8 Rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou = first half of Tai Zu Chang Quan!

First 1 in both are different except they have the same salute with embracing movements.

Next 2-4 rows in Yue Shi maps to 2 - 7 postures in TZ

next 5-8 rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou maps to 13-19 in TZ.

(it skips the same moves 8-12 that Tai Ji skips from TZ Chang Quan!)

Which means, using my chart I can map out the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and to Shaolin Rou Quan and to Tong Bei.

Wonder what is going on here?

I'll check out the second series of 8 and see if they match the rest of the TZ Chang Quan set!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe this will give us a glimpse of the 2nd and 3rd roads of the 32?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.

I've been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan's 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.

I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He's the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.

Reply]
Do you mean *The* Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Maybe this will give us a glimpse of the 2nd and 3rd roads of the 32?

No , not what I am seeing, the rest of the rows follows the same path as ta ji quan yi lu set, which mostly follows tai zu chang 32, but the movements that are not really seen in the TZ set are seen both here in the Ba fan shou sets and the tai ji quan yi lu set.

That I am finding very strange, wonder what it means?
Both are drawing from the same source?

Or the TZ 32 set originally had those moves that are seen in these 2 other sets?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Reply]
Do you mean *The* Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then!

Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn't him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.

They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.

Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.

(the Zhao clan's movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The name could still be referring to Zhao Kuang Yin though even if the martial arts came form Yue Fei's troops, because Zhao founded the dynasty. The uneducated might naturally assumed the style was his, or some variant of his art if it was taught in the military.

Remember, there are Long Fist styles in Shandong that have nothing to do with Zhao Kuang Yin, but are still named in honor of him because he initiated Long Fist practice at Shaolin. This could be the same thing, only a different angle of it.

The other thought it that the style may have gone public before Yue Fei's vindication, so the name of the art was chosen to be after Zhao as a marketing decision of sorts.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No , not what I am seeing, the rest of the rows follows the same path as ta ji quan yi lu set, which mostly follows tai zu chang 32, but the movements that are not really seen in the TZ set are seen both here in the Ba fan shou sets and the tai ji quan yi lu set.

That I am finding very strange, wonder what it means?
Both are drawing from the same source?

Or the TZ 32 set originally had those moves that are seen in these 2 other sets?

Reply]
Maybe these moves are found in Qi jiguang's set?

As for these moves being lost moves of the Tai tzu 32, I think it is possible, BUT we have the songs, and all 32 postures form those songs are in the set, so I think it is complete. These moves might be additions later though.

If they DO belong on the 32 Tai tzu Chang Chuan set, then are they moves that somehow fit the songs as well?

If they ARE moves left out, say to mark the set, then finding a line not connected to Shaolin from the surrounding villages would be important. They would still have those moves intact. They might remove others in thier own effort to mark the set, but since they would not be under the direction of shaolin, then the moves they remove would be of thier own choice and would most likely be different ones. So we need to see a local village example of the form to know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Reply]
Maybe these moves are found in Qi jiguang's set?

As for these moves being lost moves of the Tai tzu 32, I think it is possible, BUT we have the songs, and all 32 postures form those songs are in the set, so I think it is complete. These moves might be additions later though.

If they DO belong on the 32 Tai tzu Chang Chuan set, then are they moves that somehow fit the songs as well?

If they ARE moves left out, say to mark the set, then finding a line not connected to Shaolin from the surrounding villages would be important. They would still have those moves intact. They might remove others in thier own effort to mark the set, but since they would not be under the direction of shaolin, then the moves they remove would be of thier own choice and would most likely be different ones. So we need to see a local village example of the form to know.

Possible.

Could also mean either Chen/Zhao Bao/Etc and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou are drawing from the same source (which added the extra moves) which would then imply that Chen took their set from somewhere else in it's entirety (which that Tongbei style that I posted the video links to at Emptyflower shows the almost exact set).

OR

These taiji styles drew their inspiration from Ba Fan Shan style?

OR

???

[cjurakpt]

Sal,

Hi - I am trying to follow your exegesis here - if I understand correctly, you are trying to discern Shaolin-based roots of taijiquan? or is that an oversimplification / am I missing something else?

You mention Tong Bei: this particular vid here always struck me as salient: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

any input is appreciated; sorry if I am way behind the learning curve on your line of inquiry...

thanks

Chris

[Royal Dragon]

Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin learned his Tong Bei from the same source as the Chen family did at a later date (hundreds of years later), and he eliminated those extra moves himself.

Remember, Tai tzu is a distillation of the prominent military styles of the time, and Zhao's Hong set was a distillation of all the styles he was good at as well, so it stands to reason that many moves may have been dropped from his previous styles because he just didn't use them often in actual battle.

The other thing to think of, Chen Want Ting and the Li Brothers went to Qianzhi temple to learn. By then they were surely experienced martial artists, especially Chen, Wang Ting because of his military career.

So if Zhao Kuang Yin (or the creators of the 32) removed those extra moves because he didn't use them much, maybe they were still in the Tong Bei taught at Qianzhi, and Chen Wang Ting added them back in?

Zhao Kuang Yin may not have actually been at Shaolin to add his imput to the 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, BUT you have told me the Shaolin records state that they Started with his style, so it stands to reason he would have had imput in it's creation.

I can picture the Monks going to the palace with the form, and Zhao looking at it, then saying "not bad, but get rid of these moves here, and this one over there, we never use them in battle anyway."

The Monks would then go back and continue working on the form untill it was time to show Zhao thier progress again.

If the Monks really liked those moves, maybe they lived on in a "Unofficial" version that spread to the villages later down the road.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Hi - I am trying to follow your exegesis here - if I understand correctly, you are trying to discern Shaolin-based roots of taijiquan? or is that an oversimplification / am I missing something else?

You mention Tong Bei: this particular vid here always struck me as salient: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

any input is appreciated; sorry if I am way behind the learning curve on your line of inquiry...

thanks

Chris

Hi;

Shaolin based roots of taiji quan has been accept long ago (from Shaolin Rou Quan (soft fist), Hong Quan, Tai Zu Quan, etc. ) that's not what's being discerned.

Yes, that video has many people interested in how old that set really is, and where they got it from and so on. Did Chen TJQ come first or this? It is being found by researchers in China that certain branch of tongbei quan is the root to Chen taiji quan and the very similar Li style. Also Zhaobao TJQ is related, of course.

I made a chart that connects all these styles and shows how exactly.
Check out: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm

[Sal Canzonieri]

Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin learned his Tong Bei from the same source as the Chen family did at a later date (hundreds of years later), and he eliminated those extra moves himself.

Remember, Tai tzu is a distillation of the prominent military styles of the time, and Zhao's Hong set was a distillation of all the styles he was good at as well, so it stands to reason that many moves may have been dropped from his previous styles because he just didn't use them often in actual battle.

The other thing to think of, Chen Want Ting and the Li Brothers went to Qianzhi temple to learn. By then they were surely experienced martial artists, especially Chen, Wang Ting because of his military career.

So if Zhao Kuang Yin (or the creators of the 32) removed those extra moves because he didn't use them much, maybe they were still in the Tong Bei taught at Qianzhi, and Chen Wang Ting added them back in?

Zhao Kuang Yin may not have actually been at Shaolin to add his imput to the 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, BUT you have told me the Shaolin records state that they Started with his style, so it stands to reason he would have had imput in it's creation.

I can picture the Monks going to the palace with the form, and Zhao looking at it, then saying "not bad, but get rid of these moves here, and this one over there, we never use them in battle anyway."

The Monks would then go back and continue working on the form untill it was time to show Zhao thier progress again.

If the Monks really liked those moves, maybe they lived on in a "Unofficial" version that spread to the villages later down the road.

The moves are from the input of people contemporary to Zhao, and what the base of material from him that the 32 starts from is Zhao's Lao Hong Quan.

[cjurakpt]

Shaolin based roots of taiji quan has been accept long ago (from Shaolin Rou Quan (soft fist), Hong Quan, Tai Zu Quan, etc. ) that's not what's being discerned.
ok, cool - my taiji teacher first put this to me several years ago, at the time it was not particularly PC, I guess - glad to see that this is now understood as such (not saying you recently came up with this, for all I know you figured this out ages ago, but it seems like a lot of peeps were not hip to this for some time)


Yes, that video has many people interested in how old that set really is, and where they got it from and so on. Did Chen TJQ come first or this? It is being found by researchers in China that certain branch of tongbei quan is the root to Chen taiji quan and the very similar Li style. Also Zhaobao TJQ is related, of course.
in our style of taiji what most call Fan Through Back, we call Opening the Three Gates of the Back - Sam Tong Bei; my teacher always maintained that this also indicates the relationship of taiji to Tong Bei; actually, after that move, we do a 180 turn into a technique called Dang Yu - Waiting for Fish - that I have not seen in any other versions to date (but wouldn't be surprised if it existed in whatever proto-style it was derived from), and then we do Green / Young Dragon Exits Sea before moving into the next Lan Jaht Yee (Too Lazy Too Bind Robe as my teacher translates it); FYI, I study a non-familial branch of Yang Lu Chan; ostensibly our version of the form is a pre-Beijing version - we still have the jump kicks, the low spinning sweeps, etc.; another interesting thing - we also do our "jai" / press w/a semi-closed fist, similar to here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHTfFDjMp4I&feature=related) at 2:32)


I made a chart that connects all these styles and shows how exactly.
Check out: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm
awesome - thank you for your efforts towards "uncovering" the truth;

[Sal Canzonieri]

ok, cool - my taiji teacher first put this to me several years ago, at the time it was not particularly PC, I guess - glad to see that this is now understood as such (not saying you recently came up with this, for all I know you figured this out ages ago, but it seems like a lot of peeps were not hip to this for some time)


in our style of taiji what most call Fan Through Back, we call Opening the Three Gates of the Back - Sam Tong Bei; my teacher always maintained that this also indicates the relationship of taiji to Tong Bei; actually, after that move, we do a 180 turn into a technique called Dang Yu - Waiting for Fish - that I have not seen in any other versions to date (but wouldn't be surprised if it existed in whatever proto-style it was derived from), and then we do Green / Young Dragon Exits Sea before moving into the next Lan Jaht Yee (Too Lazy Too Bind Robe as my teacher translates it); FYI, I study a non-familial branch of Yang Lu Chan; ostensibly our version of the form is a pre-Beijing version - we still have the jump kicks, the low spinning sweeps, etc.; another interesting thing - we also do our "jai" / press w/a semi-closed fist, similar to here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHTfFDjMp4I&feature=related) at 2:32)


awesome - thank you for your efforts towards "uncovering" the truth;

Wow, great about your Yang style. those moves are indeed in the Shaolin Rou Quan 36 set! And I have always been thinking that Yang taiji has extra influence of Shaolin Rou quan that makes it different from Chen.
Can you please provide more info about your branch of Yang TJQ? It's lineage, etc., thanks!

[cjurakpt]

Wow, great about your Yang style. those moves are indeed in the Shaolin Rou Quan 36 set!
ok - looked at your vids on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU
starting ~:43, he goes into Needling Sea Bottom (and actually gets into it very much how we do, which is different from all other versions of the form I've seen, with the "extra' crossing of the hands before going into the downward move w/the right hand), to Opening Three Gates, and turns and does the series of moves very similarly to us - very interesting! I will have to take some time to look at it in more detail, should be very interesting...


And I have always been thinking that Yang taiji has extra influence of Shaolin Rou quan that makes it different from Chen.
as far as why the Yang is so different from Chen - that has been a question on my mind for a long time; obviously I am not versed in the Shaolin arts as you are so have not been able to compare accordingly; however, one thing has struck me about the 3rd "chapter" of the Yang form, which is that there are elements that seem very different from the rest of the form, and also the way the are organized, like Wild Horse, Jade Maiden - sort of just "thrown" in with Lan Zat Yi's seperating them - like they were single techniques from somewhere else that he just added on (I also wonder to what extent they were influenced by his contact w/Dong Hai Chuan - who, my sifu believes probably was a far superior fighter to Yang...)


Can you please provide more info about your branch of Yang TJQ? It's lineage, etc., thanks!
my teacher is Master Sat Chuen Hon; his teacher was Master Ham King Koo; Master Koo's teacher was someone by the name of Yang Zai Teng (my transliteration may be way off), who was some sort of Beijing court official who was evidently rather scholarly and all that, who studied with YLC directly (at least that's the story as I know it); Master Koo was very young when he studied w/Master Teng (1910, I bellieve), who was very old at the time; Maser Koo was in his 70's when my sifu met him (somewhere in the mid- or early 1970's) and passed away in 1999 at the age of 95.
http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html
Master Koo was also very good friend w/Master Tung Ying Jieh, and in fact we do a version of the Tung fast form that is "flavored" a bit differently; there are also some elements in our long form that seem to have been absorbed by Master Koo from Tung as well;
you might have read Master Hon's article on his personal research on the Daoist Alchemical roots of taiji in the Winter 07-08 issue of Qi? if not, it may be of interest to you; if so, I am curious about your opinion (even if you do not agree w/his perspective, that's fine, I'd be interested why not)

again, thank you very much for your assistance and in depth research!

[TenTigers]

Sal, Yue Fei is also reputed to be the founder, or one of the developers of Hsing-Yi Ch'uan. The movement you describe in your opening post also appears in some Hung Kuen sets as well. In our Moi-Fa, the movement is beggar;s hands into double Tiger claw, one striking forward, the other either pushing or pulling (depending on how youplay) by the elbow-similar to pek kuen.
Could yuor reference and connections made to 'Great Ancestor" also explain Ancestral Crane Boxing as well? They also use the SamJien, and Fukien White Crane systems seem to be the root perhaps in many Hakka systems.

As far as the Yang Tai Chi-I have always preferred Yang Family to Chen due to the any similarities it has with my own Hung-Ga, which is also Shaolin-based.Look at Brush Knee and Push, Push, White Crane Spreads its Wings, Shoulder Strike, Fair Lady works the Shuttle, Diagonal Flying, etc-all Siu-Lum (Shaolin) Hung Kuen.
The Shaolin/Tai=Chi connection has been mentioned before. In some versions, A General Jiang is said to have trained in Shaolin and may have also then gone to Chen Village. Yang Lu-Chuan was said to have been a Shaolin practitioner who then went to Chen village as well. It would stand to reason as Yang's Tai-Chi shows more similarities to Shaolin than Chen.

[TenTigers]

The Shaolin Rou Quan looks like a textbook containing Ba Ji, Hsing-Yi, and Pa Kua, all together! What a storehouse of information!

[Royal Dragon]

The energics of a Zhaobao Taijiquan compared to say Ba fanshou are way disimilar, so any movement resemblance has no bearing. Martial arts is not dance, movements alone are insufficient.


Reply]
Shaolin Master,
It is not the fact that similar movements are showing up in different styles that is significant, it is the fact that the same moves keep showing up, in the same sequential order, over and over again in certain styles, that is significant.

You are right though, there is much more to it than the moves themselves. The body method is also significant.

I would like to see a chart documenting various body methods and their evolution from style to style as well. It would shed light on the other end of the spectrum.

[TenTigers]

the same movement taught to different people with varied backrounds and experiences will then develop and evolve into different methodolgies/systems/tactics. Whatis intersting is seeing the source, and then the separate evolutions of the individual styles. Witness Fukien/Hakka styles, White Crane/Southern Mantis/Wing Chun/Ngo Cho etc.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't think Tai Tzu crane has any relation to Zhao, Kuang Yin. I think in this case "Tai Tzu"just refers to the fact that is is a really old Crane style system, or it is the great ancestor to more modern ones.

The words Tai Tzu are not mutually exclusive to Zhao Kuang Yin. There are a number of styles with that name, and not many are related to each other nor are they related to Zhao Kuang Yin's style. It's like Hong Fist, lots of different styles have that name. some are connected to each other, and some are not.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the same movement taught to different people with varied backrounds and experiences will then develop and evolve into different methodolgies/systems/tactics. Whatis intersting is seeing the source, and then the separate evolutions of the individual styles. Witness Fukien/Hakka styles, White Crane/Southern Mantis/Wing Chun/Ngo Cho etc.

Exactly! that's how there is evolution in CMA occurs.
Eventually they look different enough on the surface that people can't see how they are once of the same origin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ok - looked at your vids on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU
starting ~:43, he goes into Needling Sea Bottom (and actually gets into it very much how we do, which is different from all other versions of the form I've seen, with the "extra' crossing of the hands before going into the downward move w/the right hand), to Opening Three Gates, and turns and does the series of moves very similarly to us - very interesting! I will have to take some time to look at it in more detail, should be very interesting...


as far as why the Yang is so different from Chen - that has been a question on my mind for a long time; obviously I am not versed in the Shaolin arts as you are so have not been able to compare accordingly; however, one thing has struck me about the 3rd "chapter" of the Yang form, which is that there are elements that seem very different from the rest of the form, and also the way the are organized, like Wild Horse, Jade Maiden - sort of just "thrown" in with Lan Zat Yi's seperating them - like they were single techniques from somewhere else that he just added on (I also wonder to what extent they were influenced by his contact w/Dong Hai Chuan - who, my sifu believes probably was a far superior fighter to Yang...)


my teacher is Master Sat Chuen Hon; his teacher was Master Ham King Koo; Master Koo's teacher was someone by the name of Yang Zai Teng (my transliteration may be way off), who was some sort of Beijing court official who was evidently rather scholarly and all that, who studied with YLC directly (at least that's the story as I know it); Master Koo was very young when he studied w/Master Teng (1910, I bellieve), who was very old at the time; Maser Koo was in his 70's when my sifu met him (somewhere in the mid- or early 1970's) and passed away in 1999 at the age of 95.
http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html
Master Koo was also very good friend w/Master Tung Ying Jieh, and in fact we do a version of the Tung fast form that is "flavored" a bit differently; there are also some elements in our long form that seem to have been absorbed by Master Koo from Tung as well;
you might have read Master Hon's article on his personal research on the Daoist Alchemical roots of taiji in the Winter 07-08 issue of Qi? if not, it may be of interest to you; if so, I am curious about your opinion (even if you do not agree w/his perspective, that's fine, I'd be interested why not)

again, thank you very much for your assistance and in depth research!


Please look at this Shaolin Rou Quan 36 set, this is the main one that was absorbed by Tai Ji - Yang was shown the Soft Hands and that's why his stuff was different than Chen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s

Look at my website and look at the comparison chart I give for the TJQ and Shaolin and Tongbei sets. You can see exactly what is going on in that part of the Yang Set that you are questioning: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm

So, this is the Beijing imperial guards style of Yang TJQ, they do many more sets than the other Yang TJQ styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, Yue Fei is also reputed to be the founder, or one of the developers of Hsing-Yi Ch'uan. The movement you describe in your opening post also appears in some Hung Kuen sets as well. In our Moi-Fa, the movement is beggar;s hands into double Tiger claw, one striking forward, the other either pushing or pulling (depending on how youplay) by the elbow-similar to pek kuen.
Could yuor reference and connections made to 'Great Ancestor" also explain Ancestral Crane Boxing as well? They also use the SamJien, and Fukien White Crane systems seem to be the root perhaps in many Hakka systems.

As far as the Yang Tai Chi-I have always preferred Yang Family to Chen due to the any similarities it has with my own Hung-Ga, which is also Shaolin-based.Look at Brush Knee and Push, Push, White Crane Spreads its Wings, Shoulder Strike, Fair Lady works the Shuttle, Diagonal Flying, etc-all Siu-Lum (Shaolin) Hung Kuen.
The Shaolin/Tai=Chi connection has been mentioned before. In some versions, A General Jiang is said to have trained in Shaolin and may have also then gone to Chen Village. Yang Lu-Chuan was said to have been a Shaolin practitioner who then went to Chen village as well. It would stand to reason as Yang's Tai-Chi shows more similarities to Shaolin than Chen.

All are drawing from the same Shaolin long fist sources.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Royal;

Found the first move of TZ Chang Quan in the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou,
"scooping moon from bottom of sea", it is called Lu Shou, "plucking hand" and it is used to enter into their Guarding position, same as it is used in TZ Chang Quan set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Eric Horgrove;

I have a copy of ancient book of original 8 rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou.

Email me and I will show you where you can get it online, Plumflower has it!

It's a must have item in your research!

All in Chinese though, with tons of info, and hand illustrated for each posture.

[mawali]

Sal,

Hi - I am trying to follow your exegesis here - if I understand correctly, you are trying to discern Shaolin-based roots of taijiquan? or is that an oversimplification / am I missing something else?

You mention Tong Bei: this particular vid here always struck me as salient: http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

any input is appreciated; sorry if I am way behind the learning curve on your line of inquiry...

thanks

Chris


Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of 'unnecessary' hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren't correct:

I've been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

[cjurakpt]

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it's not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it's not videos I am comparing, it's real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.

I thought that was obvious...

[Sal Canzonieri]

I thought that was obvious...

Guess not to some people, I am very tired of people that know absolutely nothing about me, how I trained for decades EVERY DAY for 7 days a week, and actually learned the sets that I write about.
I wouldn't be able to say I think something is related to something else if I didn't know the sets I was comparing in and out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of 'unnecessary' hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.

This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben's was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: "tai zu nan tang" instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it's theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.

[Shaolin Master]

Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn't him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.

They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.

Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.

(the Zhao clan's movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)

Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei's descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation....

Cheers
Wu Chanlong

[Shaolin Master]

Royal Gian;

First 8 Rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou = first half of Tai Zu Chang Quan!

First 1 in both are different except they have the same salute with embracing movements.

Next 2-4 rows in Yue Shi maps to 2 - 7 postures in TZ

next 5-8 rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou maps to 13-19 in TZ.

(it skips the same moves 8-12 that Tai Ji skips from TZ Chang Quan!)

Which means, using my chart I can map out the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and to Shaolin Rou Quan and to Tong Bei.

Wonder what is going on here?

I'll check out the second series of 8 and see if they match the rest of the TZ Chang Quan set!

Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan....http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences....

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo

[Royal Dragon]

This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben's was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: "tai zu nan tang" instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it's theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.

Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thoought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, *IF* it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period's Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it's creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?


Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn't invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it's just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more...so it got named after him.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei's descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation....

Cheers
Wu Chanlong

I know that there is the Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.

Scattered in Henan and other provinces there are also other styles called Yue Jia Quan or very similar names that come from other people that claim that their style comes from troops of Yue Fei, such as Niu family in Henan.
The material of these styles is not too different from Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.
Some are a lot different.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan....http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences....

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo

The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou I am referring to comes from the generation before Liu Dekuan, such as Liu Shijun, its from a different student of Liu Shijun rather than Liu Dekuan.

Also, I have a copy of manual that shows the first 8 rows of this Yue Shi Ba fan Shou.

Eagle claw as it is done today changed it a lot.

Also, it looks similar to but not exactly like the Ba Fan Quan sets in those two video links.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, *IF* it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period's Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it's creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?


Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn't invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it's just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more...so it got named after him.

Dude, you mixing up all different styles that have almost the same names.

Tong Bei Quan was developed during the early Qing Dynasty by Dong family in Shanxi / Henan area first, later reached Hebei. Dong Cheng taught many versions of this style to various people, each one is a different branch of Tong Bei Quan today, such as White Ape and Hongdong Tong Bei.

The "tong bi" that you are talking about that the military did during times that Zhao Kuan Yin was in the military didn't have an exact name, it's called Tong Bi today for whatever reasons. These military long fist were done back into the Tang Dynasty into the Song Dynasty.

Shaolin's Tai Zu Chang Quan was developed by his orders, but it's not called Tai Zu because of Zhao, Zhao was named that later, it would be Forbidden to use tai Zu as a name because it was associated with an Emperor's name.
Shaolin called it Tai Zu because it was the foundational set, developed by order of Zhao so that Shaolin could prove if someone graduated from there or not.
Zhao sent people to Shaolin to give them their best techniques.
NO ONE outside of Shaolin during this time period was allowed to practice it or teach it.

This first set, Tai Zu Chang Quan Yi Lu was used eventually by people who learned it from somewhere no one knows, and somehow by the 1600s this set got to the Dong family and Dong Cheng taught it to Chen Wang Ting, and later Chen You Bin used it.

General Zhao that we are talking about is of Chuo Jiao Fanzi FAME, he was a general during the Tai Ping Rebellion, hundreds of years later in mid 1800s, and he fled to Hebei province from southern China.

Zhao Kuan Yin developed Lao Hong Quan. He descendants that re-located to other parts of China still do these sets. The Wencheng Quan style is one of those styles developed by his descendants.
The proof is that WenCheng was developed during the 1600s, same time as Tong Bei Quan of Dong family, and later Chen TJQ. \

If Lao Hong Quan and Tai Zu Chang Quan was not from before the Qing Dynasty, it would have been impossible for people from two different provinces living at the same time period (henan and Shandong in 1600s), but developing two styles with the same theories and many of the same movements, because both were drawing from Lao Hong Quan and Tai Zu Chang Quan.

[Royal Dragon]

You are completely missing my point. This is not coming across the way I intend it to in text. We need to talk on the phone.

We are spending entirely too much time on a little detail that should be in the background of this discussion.

I will call you later in the week and explain my thoughts. You will understand in 2 seconds that way.

[LFJ]

the way it is said by master deyang is that zhao kuangyin studied at shaolinsi and later created his own form and taught it back to them. there were a few names he mentioned that did similar, but i dont recall them now. but definitely zhao kuangyin developed the form himself and taught it back to shaolin. not somehow by 'his orders' the form was developed and then taught to him afterward.

[Royal Dragon]

No, No, you are confusing the Tai Tzu 32 posture set with his Lao Hong Quan. There are two different forms. One HE developed, the other his Generals developed. It is a common point of confusion.

Zhao was famous for his Monkey Boxing, and also known to have learned Taiji Ruler, Hua Quan and Six Step Boxing.

Before he was Emperor, during his military career, he created his personal style by drawing from all the arts he knew, and the arts he did in the military. He combined all the techniques he used the most or were his favorites and developed the Lao Hong Fist (Old Flood Fist) style. THAT is the style he taught to Shaolin, not Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

I may be wrong, but if I remember right he got injured in a battle and spent a year at Shaolin recovering. That is when he developed his style into a form. It was just a collection of about 100 techniques before then.


The form called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was developed by the Generals he sent there to teach AFTER he became Emperor. I am told the Shaolin records are very clear about this.

Also, in ANY style named Tai tzu, that I have found so far, the Tai Tzu name almost allways is honorary. The material is not actually from Zhao Kuang Yin personally. The style has that name to honor it's Shaolin roots, and heritage initiated by Zhao, but not his actual art itself.

For example, there are a number of Tai tzu Long Fist styles in Taiwan, from Shandong. They are all Shaolin mixed with Moslem Cha Fist. You can see this clearly by comparing vids on Youtube.

These styles are nothing like Zhao Kuang Yin's style at all. They are predominantly Moslem Long Fist and named to honor the Shaolin influence because the Shaolin influence was a division of longfist that had been spawned from the Tai tzu Chang Chuan set that Zhao sent his Generals to Shaolin to develop, or a style that descended from it...in other words, it's an honorary name, NOT meant to say the art itself was Zhao Kuang Yin's, just too honor him as the founder of Shaolin derived Long Fist in general.


The only Tai tzu Chang Chuan style I have seen that is not named solely in an honorary fashion is the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang chuan, which consists of the 32 posture form his Generals developed, his original Lao Hong set, and a later added set called Da Hong that the Monks developed from his notes after the fact.

Even then, only one set in that style is actually his. My guess is that one set was the entire style to him. All the other stuff got added to the system later by the Monks at Shaolin.

[LFJ]

it was definitely the shaolin taizu changquan set that master deyang was talking about being developed and taught back to shaolin after zhao kuangyin studied there. he made no mentioned of the laohongquan set.

this was in a discussion on cherishing the antiquity of the material we practice now- where they came from, mentioning more names besides zhao kuangyin who studied at shaolin and then developed their own forms and taught it back to them. zhao and his taizu changquan set (even if the name was given honorarily by shaolin) was one example.

as for laohongquan, does it refer to this set: http://www.56.com/u65/v_MzA2OTUyNDY.html

he says there are two sets called dahongquan- this one and his. but this one is transmitted externally to shaolin in liu baoshan's line. while his dahongquan (3 roads) is transmitted internally from his master suxi.

[Royal Dragon]

I believe the dahongquan developed from Zhao's notes is 6 roads. The Yilu should be this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnC8FVBC29M

Sal, is that the right set in my link?

As for your history of the Tai tzu 32, I have heard the version you put forth as well, and held it to be the actual history, but according to Sal Canzonieri, the other story is the real one. That is based off review of Shaolin's historical documents.

I still feel there is a confusion between those two sets though (Tai Tzu 32 and Lao Hong Quan)

It would be real nice to find out Zhao actually did develop the Tai tzu Chang Chuan Yi Lu, and all the other roads came from the generals. But based on conversations with Sal, and his description of some of his research and how he came to his conclusion, I don't think Zhao actually developed it himself.

Go to Deyang and put forth the story I layed out, and see what he says.

Does he speak English? If so would there be a way to contact him? i would like to hear his views on things.

[LFJ]

it may be more, but i've just learned or ever seen the three. but is laohongquan referring to the "dahongquan" set i linked to, or something else?

master deyang can say "monk", "wolf", and maybe a few other words of english. but he only speaks chinese. he is in hungary now for a few weeks but i'll talk to him about it next time.

[Royal Dragon]

No, Lao Hong Quan is a totally different set. The one you linked to appears to be similar to the Xiao Hong Quan set everybody knows, only much longer. I have never seen that one before though, i am just picking out familiar moves.

I think Xiao Hong Quan and it's matching Da Hong Quan are together a style that developed out of tai tzu, rather than being part of the same system.

The Da Hong for Tai tzu is the one with 6 roads. You normally only see the first 3 though. I once found a DVD/VCD on the 4th and 6th road, but not one on the 5th.

I learned the first road only, but later disguarded it when i decided to only work a few sets...only to discover it was part of the tai tzu system and I needed it. I need someone to reteach me now as I have forgotten all but the first 1/3 of it or so.

Lao Hong, from what I can tell, is a very rare set. Only Tai Tzu specialists would know it.

This is an abridged version of the first road of Zhao Kuang Yin's Lao Hong Quan. It was all I cold find for reference.

http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html


This is the Da Hong Quan sets

1-3 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html


4 & 6 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin16.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ahhhh!

Wait, let's just use the Shaolin Encyclopedia that Shi De Qian wrote as source first.

It clearly says that Zhao went to Shanxi in his travels before signing up with the military and was defeated by an old man doing Soft boxing.
He followed this guy until he was surprised to see that he finally stopped at Shaolin.

There he asked if he could be taught the main concept of soft boxing. He learned in about 4 days or so. They found him to be very knowledgeable about techniques and they learned a series of 4 short Hong Quan sets from him before he left. He didn't stay more than a week. It's not like he learned a whole style from them, just a concept. His sets were called Hong Quan as meaning FLOWING because the moves were done in a flowing way, not stop and start like drills were normally done. This became called the LAO, ancient Hong Quan to differentiate it from the later developed Xiao Hong Quan developed during the late yuan or early Ming era, and Da Hong Quan sets developed during the Qing era.

The Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan set was developed because some fake monks were beaten up and they had lied and said that they had learned from Shaolin. Zhao Kuan Yin decided to help Shaolin make a series of testing sets, if someone didn't know these sets, they didn't learn at Shaolin. He send over some of his "friends" and over a space of 9 years, 3 sets of 3 years, they taught their best techniques to the Shaolin monk-soldiers who used the material to develop these sets. The first one is called TAI ZU because it is the ancestral set that all the others come from. It is named in honor of Zhao too, but he wasn't named TAI ZU yet, since he wasn't dead. His Lao Hong Quan was the long fist foundational base, then other ones were added from other people, to create a 32 posture (54 movements) set. The timing of this set is weird because it is an amalgamation of different people's best stuff.


THIS is what the Shaolin Encylopedia says about Zhao's stay there, his four sets of Hong Quan they received as a gift, and how the Chang Quan set was created, after 50 years of research by Shi De Qian, who traveled all over China and South East Asia to compare the hand written manuals that were copied from the library of Shaolin BEFORE it burned down in the 1920s. Also, many books were carried out while it was burning and saved, not everything burned up.


------------------------------------------------------------------

The Da Hong Quan sets are about 6 of them, only the first 3 are still taught openly. Most Shaolin "monks" of today don't really know them well and have simplified them into garbage. They were developed from Zhao Kuan Yin's notebooks that he donated to Shaolin Library before he died, and from mixing in stuff from various Shaolin sets then in existence. It's an amalgamated series of sets.

The Xiao Hong Quan are THREE sets, one is shorter and simpler, the Xiao Hong Quan YI LU that everyone knows.
The NEXT set is called DA Hong Quan too, it is also now called Xiao Da Hong Quan, and it is mistakenly called the Lao Hong Quan set too. It is a more elaborate version of the common Xiao Hong Quan set. Many years ago, the Russbo Shaolin based website unveiled this set and we discussed the history of this set there.
(The third set is called Xiao Hong Quan ER LU, and is very short and is mostly a set of kicks, it was developed in Qing dynasty, so it much newer.)

[LFJ]

the dahongquan i linked to is the one i was talking about being transmitted externally to shaolin in liu baoshan's line. the video is from him. tagou students. but it is extremely similar to xiaohongquan, as if a matching set.

i remember now. i just recently got a taolu appreciation vcd from those guys who do the 6 road dahongquan. they do some other rare forms too. such as 1-7 luohanquan. road 1 being xiaoluohanquan, and road 3 being daluohanquan.

the laohongquan set is also on there. just went back and watched it. and yeah, i've never seen that one before. doesnt really look like xiao or dahongquan at all.

but all of their forms are kind of awkward to my eye. they are from shi xingsen who is apparently in shi degen's line.

so anyway, you're saying the 6 road dahongquan is from taizu style, while xiaohongquan and its matching dahongquan are later developments out of that?

i thought sal was saying the 6 road (or 3 as far as i know) dahongquan were younger sets. and as far as i've learned, it was developed on the basis of xiaohongquan. and from there xiaotongbiquan was created from xiaohong, dahong, and houquan. then datongbiquan from xiaotongbi and dahong.

but this dahong similar to xiaohong as i've learned is something from outside shaolin temple. so, i dont know but it may have been created based on xiaohongquan, hence the similarities, but outside of shaolin temple- from liu baoshan. so i dont know how old it is.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes, liu baoshan teaches both the Lao Hong Quan from Zhao (he has a vcd out of the Yi Lu - first set)

and

liu baoshan has a vcd of the Xiao Da Hong Quan set, which is the same set as this one: http://www.56.com/u65/v_MzA2OTUyNDY.html (by the way, this video is missing the opening movements, it looks like it got cut off and started too late)
Another of Su Xi's students has a vcd out of this same set and he named it the
LAO (old) JIA (frame) Hong Quan set.

Anyways, if it LOOKS like the commonly seen Xiao Hong Quan set, whether it is the elaborate one or the simplified one, it is from around Ming dynasty. It was a gift from Li Su, who went to Shaolin with Bai Yu Feng and Monk Jue Yuan, the founders of the Five Animals style.

[LFJ]

so, correct me if i'm wrong. just want to summarize this theory.

in zhao's short stay at shaolin he taught them 4 sets of hongquan which later became known as laohongquan.

the taizu changquan set was developed by his generals who taught it to shaolin as a testing set using laohong as a base, and whatever else they had.

dahongquan was developed later by shaolin based on zhao's donated notes, and whatever else they had.

so then the xiaohongquan sets of three, the second one being (xiao) dahongquan, came from...? did you not say they were from the same taizu system? they appear to share similar moves from the taizu changquan set as well. created by lisu? please explain these.

[Royal Dragon]

If I remember right, the Xiao Hong series was developed from the Tai tzu, which is why it has familiar moves through out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

so, correct me if i'm wrong. just want to summarize this theory.

in zhao's short stay at shaolin he taught them 4 sets of hongquan which later became known as laohongquan.

the taizu changquan set was developed by his generals who taught it to shaolin as a testing set using laohong as a base, and whatever else they had.

dahongquan was developed later by shaolin based on zhao's donated notes, and whatever else they had.

Yes, you understood all this correctly.


so then the xiaohongquan sets of three, the second one being (xiao) dahongquan, came from...? did you not say they were from the same taizu system? they appear to share similar moves from the taizu changquan set as well. created by lisu? please explain these.

The Xiao Hong Quan that we all know, and the more elaborate Da version were created by Li Su (means old man in Chinese) and it was built upon old Shaolin stuff, there are some movements from Tai Zu Chang Quan, and some from other sets, and some from an outside Shaolin style that Li Su knew.
So, there is some overlap, yes.

There is no ancient Tai Zu "system", there are the 4 sets of Lao Hong Quan that Zhao Kuan Yin taught to the monks, with new influence of their Soft (Rou Quan) Boxing added to the sets and during 962 AD Shaolin developed their Tai Zu Chang Quan Yi Lu (and others) sets.

There reason these newer Xiao and Xiao Da (or Da Xiao it is also called by some!) are lumped together with Rou Quan and Chang Quan is because they all were used by people (Chen/Zhao Bao, etc) to help create what is now called Tai Ji Quan. Which helps date when TJQ was developed because it is obviously made AFTER Xiao Hong Quan was created, since Xiao Hong Quan is the newer of these Shaolin sets.
Of course TJQ also adds something new to the Shaolin material, don't forget.

[LFJ]

nice. i think 李叟 should be li sou. that helps.

so his sets were named hongquan because...? thought it was because it was based off the same hongquan sets from zhao kuangyin, taizu changquan (and whatever else). hence calling it part of the same system, just a later development. was the name due to this relation?

speaking of the development, do you have approximate dates for which these sets were developed? starting from zhao's (lao)hongquan sets, his generals' taizu changquan sets, li sou's xiaohongquan sets, and the monks' dahongquan sets?

[Sal Canzonieri]

nice. i think 李叟 should be li sou. that helps.

so his sets were named hongquan because...? thought it was because it was based off the same hongquan sets from zhao kuangyin, taizu changquan (and whatever else). hence calling it part of the same system, just a later development. was the name due to this relation?

speaking of the development, do you have approximate dates for which these sets were developed? starting from zhao's (lao)hongquan sets, his generals' taizu changquan sets, li sou's xiaohongquan sets, and the monks' dahongquan sets?

Yep, Li Sou is the right pinyin, sorry.

He named them hong quan because the were flowing sets, like the Lao Hong Quan, and that they were based on the older Shaolin material. Sometimes all the old Shaolin is called Hong Quan, and sometimes it is called Luohan Quan and sometimes it is called Chang Quan and sometimes Chan Quan.
They are used interchangeabley, making for a lot of confusion today.

Zhao's Lao Hong Quan are said to be from from before 960 AD, from right before he entered into the service (you can figure it out from one of his bios on internet).

Tai Zu Chang Quan is from 961 AD, when they first started the meetings.

Li Sou's Hong Quan is from later yuan/ early Ming, so 1300s? right on the border of the two times.

Da Hong Quan is most likely from the 1700s.
If it is from the Ming instead of the Qing, then the 1500s.

But I doubt it is from before the Qing, because I have never seen any mention of it before the Qing era.

[LFJ]

cool, thanks for that! :)

[LFJ]

so that 3rd set of xiaohongquan (erlu) was not created by li sou, obviously. i've not seen this form anywhere- that i know of. is there any place to find something on it?

[Sal Canzonieri]

so that 3rd set of xiaohongquan (erlu) was not created by li sou, obviously. i've not seen this form anywhere- that i know of. is there any place to find something on it?

It's a great short set, and the interesting thing about it is, there is a whole section of it that is in the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set, in the same order of movements.

Well, I haven't seen any videos of it, but it is shown step by step in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

[LFJ]

as i mentioned earlier, i recall in the discussion with master deyang that he said after zhao kuangyin had studied at shaolin he created the taizu changquan set himself and later it was taught back to shaolin.

since, he is now in hungary and i cant go into it further with him until later i decided to look back over some of the demo videos i have, wherein the history of taizu changquan set is explained in brief.

it says, after studying at shaolin zhao kuangyin created his own set (taizu changquan) and used it in battle upon founding the song dynasty. during hand-to-hand combat with his enemies it proved to be extremely powerful and effective. and so he passed it on to his officers and soldiers. later to repay the kindness of the shaolin temple's teaching, the set was combined with shaolin's material as well as a few sets he put together through condensation of his knowledge. (apparently the (lao)hongquan sets)

so now, it would seem that the taizu changquan set was created by zhao kuangyin, and in line with master deqian's explanation, taught to shaolin by his generals (more likely than by himself) during the meetings beginning in 961 and was used as a testing set to determine whether or not people were actually from shaolin- as this set was only known by zhao and his army. however, it was used in battle before zhao founded the song dynasty. so it was at least from between the time zhao went to shaolin (date?) and 960.

as for the (lao)hongquan sets, they appear to have been taught to shaolin at the same time as the taizu changquan set, putting it in shaolin at at least 961 rather than during the four days zhao was at shaolin.

besides, the (lao)hongquan sets were a summarization of his knowledge, apparently including that from shaolin. which i'm sure would have taken more than four days to produce.

[Sal Canzonieri]

as i mentioned earlier, i recall in the discussion with master deyang that he said after zhao kuangyin had studied at shaolin he created the taizu changquan set himself and later it was taught back to shaolin.

since, he is now in hungary and i cant go into it further with him until later i decided to look back over some of the demo videos i have, wherein the history of taizu changquan set is explained in brief.

it says, after studying at shaolin zhao kuangyin created his own set (taizu changquan) and used it in battle upon founding the song dynasty. during hand-to-hand combat with his enemies it proved to be extremely powerful and effective. and so he passed it on to his officers and soldiers. later to repay the kindness of the shaolin temple's teaching, the set was combined with shaolin's material as well as a few sets he put together through condensation of his knowledge. (apparently the (lao)hongquan sets)

so now, it would seem that the taizu changquan set was created by zhao kuangyin, and in line with master deqian's explanation, taught to shaolin by his generals (more likely than by himself) during the meetings beginning in 961 and was used as a testing set to determine whether or not people were actually from shaolin- as this set was only known by zhao and his army. however, it was used in battle before zhao founded the song dynasty. so it was at least from between the time zhao went to shaolin (date?) and 960.

as for the (lao)hongquan sets, they appear to have been taught to shaolin at the same time as the taizu changquan set, putting it in shaolin at at least 961 rather than during the four days zhao was at shaolin.

besides, the (lao)hongquan sets were a summarization of his knowledge, apparently including that from shaolin. which i'm sure would have taken more than four days to produce.

I'm just going by Shaolin's own records.

Lao Hong Quan was given to them by Zhao when he was not yet in the military, so it was when he was much younger. He might now have even created it, it was based on Shanxi martial arts, where he was training.

The Tai Zhu Yi Lu set is not named after him, it was the ancestral set, he wasn't named Tai Zu yet and it would be forbidden to use the Emperor's name. The Er lu and San lu sets are not named Tai Zu, just plain old Chang Quan.

The Tai Zu Chang Quan set is composed of 32 separate techniques from 18 different sources. Because of this it has 'off-timing" which makes it unique and interesting. Each technique is from one person, and it can be traced to which person because there are various quan pu that delineate them.

Your teacher, like many teachers, though we all love, honor, and trust them, simply repeated the legendary story about this set that I am sure his teacher's told him. But Shaolin's own records give a more logical, plausible, simpler version, and it is considered not legendary.

If that version were true, there would be manuals somewhere that state this and there is not (so far) and there would be lineages or regions that do this set and can trace this set to a specific time or person and there is not one lineage or region known in China (so far) that can trace their knowledge of this set from BEFORE Shaolin created, most people can only trace it back to the Ming dynasty, at the earliest, and Qing dynasty at the most commonest era.

The Shaolin version makes so much more sense and is verifiable and doesn't sound like hero aggrandizing, no offense to you or your teacher. My teachers said the same story too, but they said that was the official legend.
Digging deeper Shaolin itself (not modern garbage there, but the material that Shi De Qian and others as well have spent 50 years investigating and compared actual hand written records that have long been preserved in lineages to each other for consistency, and also some surviving records that were saved from the 1920 burning of the Shaolin library.

Of course, at any time so artifact might show up out of nowhere and changes the story, but so far after 50 years of research, that's what has been found.

[LFJ]

there may well be two stories- the legend, and the actual history. although, what i've seen here is basically a very plausible record of events, on both sides. a legend would have more fantasticated aspects to it.

the difference between the two stories is not much. basically only who actually put the set together (zhao who taught it to his officers and soldiers who took it to shaolin, or his generals that worked it together at shaolin) and when it was put together (before or after reaching shaolin). the fact that the techniques were effectively used in battle only differs in that they were random techniques from different styles, or the whole already formulated set.

beyond that i dont see much of a difference, and i see how the history of it such a long time ago could get mixed up. i'm just trying to bring this version of the history out here though. until the next chance i get to talk this over with master deyang. i can see either as plausible.

[Royal Dragon]

LFJ,
The legend you put forth is the one I was originally taught. It is not unique or un circulated, but after talking to Sal for years about this now, and listening to how he came to his conclusions, I tend to believe his findings are the accurate history and what we were told is a mix of confusion and ancient legends.

Sal, I have a question, you are saying he taught the Lao Hong Set to Shaolin BEFORE he entered the military? You had told me one time he had been injured in battle, an arrow wound or some such thing, and spent a year there recovering. Does it not make much more sense that THAT is when he would have taught the set?

I have been working on this set for a year myself now, and I have just finally gotten halfway through the 4rth road (hoping to finish it by September)

Also, I am not sure I buy that he was able to absorb the "Soft" aspects in 4 days either. It took me several years of tutelage under my LHBF friend to even get in the ball park.

We spent some time going over the Chen Hsi I (Chen po) legend that says Zhao had learned Taiji ruler from him in his youth, and you were able to at least place them in the same geographic area, at the same time. Doesn't it stand to reason that maybe he got the soft aspects from Taiji Ruler, and just compared methodologies during those 4 days? especially since the Taiji Ruler mechanics are so remarkably similar?

[Sal Canzonieri]

LFJ,
The legend you put forth is the one I was originally taught. It is not unique or un circulated, but after talking to Sal for years about this now, and listening to how he came to his conclusions, I tend to believe his findings are the accurate history and what we were told is a mix of confusion and ancient legends.

Sal, I have a question, you are saying he taught the Lao Hong Set to Shaolin BEFORE he entered the military? You had told me one time he had been injured in battle, an arrow wound or some such thing, and spent a year there recovering. Does it not make much more sense that THAT is when he would have taught the set?

I have been working on this set for a year myself now, and I have just finally gotten halfway through the 4rth road (hoping to finish it by September)

Also, I am not sure I buy that he was able to absorb the "Soft" aspects in 4 days either. It took me several years of tutelage under my LHBF friend to even get in the ball park.

We spent some time going over the Chen Hsi I (Chen po) legend that says Zhao had learned Taiji ruler from him in his youth, and you were able to at least place them in the same geographic area, at the same time. Doesn't it stand to reason that maybe he got the soft aspects from Taiji Ruler, and just compared methodologies during those 4 days? especially since the Taiji Ruler mechanics are so remarkably similar?

Historical records about Zhao's life show that he traveled around China when he was a teenager (remember people then lived a lot less longer than they do now) because he wanted to be a martial art instructor (ah, the folly of youth!). In this pursuit he learned many different things, mostly weapons. ANY GREAT Martial Artist learns to master spear, sword and knife or he is considered nothing. After spending a lot of time learning in Shanxi province, where he most likely learned something like Tong Bi (not the Tong Bei Quan that Dong family developed later, but related to it), which is a type of long fist, often called Hong Quan, that comes from military weapons training (what to do if you drop you weapon), he eventually made his way to Shaolin. BEFORE he went back to his family and joined the military.

At Shaolin, the records they have say only that he stayed there a short time, he was already masterful of martial arts and that they exchanged their Rou Quan for his Lao Hong Quan. That's all it says, even in the Shaolin Encyclopedia that Shi De Gian researched.

Anways, the story about the arrow and recuperating at Shaolin, I never said it was "true", it's a legend, and I think it is about his brother> Many things his successor brother did gets confused with him. Records show that HIS BROTHER MET WITH CHEN Po, not Zhao. Chen Po kept refusing to attend the Emperor's Court. Finally Chen Po was forced to visit and he strongly disliked Zhao's brother, the new emperor. Rumor had it that Zhao was poisoned by his brother, since he dies suddenly in the night by 53 years of age, and only being emperor for a few years.

Now it is possible that he knew Zhao Kuan Yin and Zhao learned from him at some point. There is no way to prove it at this time.
Everything in the Tai Ji Ruler exists in the Shaolin Ape Monkey set and in the Rou Gong sets (such as Luohan 13 Gong). So, who knows what means?

Makes sense that Zhao didn't need to spend too much time learning at Shaolin, since his Hong Quan and their Rou Quan BOTH have their roots in Tong Bi Quan.

As you know, some say that all this is false and that during the 1600s Tong BEI Quan was developed by Dong family and THIS is the real root of Shaolin martial arts and Tai Zu Quan CAME AFTER Tong Bei Quan was developed and that Tai Zu is from really just from the Qing Dynasty. I know that Tong Bei Quan has a set called Tai Zu Chang Quan.
BUT< I think that Tai ZU Chang Quan is from Song Dynasty originally and that this Tong Bei Quan absorbed it later, not the other way around.
Well, until there is more evidence, people can only argue.

[Royal Dragon]

You are right about the confusion. I know the Taiji Ruler story about the chess game is often attributed to Zhao, but then also to his brother who took the throne from him.

There is the second story about Zhao learning from him in his youth though, so BOTH stories may be true.

[GeneChing]

Check out The Rosetta Stone of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=807) by Salvatore Canzonieri, just posted on our e-zine. We have a downloadible chart, plus Sal's collection of vids on the subject.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Check out The Rosetta Stone of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=807) by Salvatore Canzonieri, just posted on our e-zine. We have a downloadible chart, plus Sal's collection of vids on the subject.

Thanks very much! Nice to see it available to others.

Stay tuned for my new 200 page book on the subject of how and why Bagua Zhang, Liu He Zinyi / Xingyi Quan, and Taiji Quan are interrelated and have common roots in Ba Shan Fan / Chuo Jiao, Tong Bei Quan, Hong Quan, Taizhu Chang Quan, Wu Quan, Meihua Zhuang, Mizhong, Yue Jia Quan, and more.
It's a mystery "who done it" historical book that traces all the interconnections of "who taught what to whom, when and where" and has many very surprising revelations and vary rare information that I gathered from over 20 years of research interviewing many old practitioners that are no long dead.
If I didn't write it, I would have loved finding a book like this.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is really outstanding work and a great service to the martial arts community. Very meticulous scholarship.

I asked a Daoist monk here why everyone at these modern wushu temples is doing Taiji as it came through Chen Style which is lifted directly from hong quan, yet they claim more pure lineage than the Chen family directly to Jiang Fa.

Even CCTV was making these kind of claims. I am also sick of hearing that Shaolin is external. Its nonsense. There is internal and there not practicing enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGO2iIgx6I&eurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=807 This in particular is very well done.

Thanks.

Well, the reason that Chen credits Jiang Fa is all written about in my new book, and I also write about how and when Chen drew from Shaolin, and what exactly was taken.
It's a complicated story and the reason they don't credit Shaolin has to do with a massacre that happened at Shaolin by an invading army of rebels.
Chen style is a merger of Shaolin AND Taoist 13 Postures routine (5 elements and 8 trigrams or directions).
Jiang Fa and others taught the Chen's the Taoist 13 Postures.

But, the irony is that the 13 Postures came from Shaolin originally and they lost it over time. During that time, the Taoists had learned it and developed it into their Wudang Nei Jia Quan style, so now they are best known for the 13 postures.
Again this is all in my new book.
Soon as I get all the comments back from the reviewers I sent it too, I will make the final draft and layout the pages with graphics and then shop it to publishers.

On top of all this, Shaolin in the Qing Dynasty had a Chan Taiji Quan set that was developed by a nun, she had learned Wudang Taiji and merged it with Shaolin Quan to create it. I have seen versions of it on videos at Google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1501361658783490794&ei=nSm5SeS1HZy4qAOJsJi1AQ&q=buddhist+taiji&hl=en

[Baqualin]

Thanks.

Well, the reason that Chen credits Jiang Fa is all written about in my new book, and I also write about how and when Chen drew from Shaolin, and what exactly was taken.
It's a complicated story and the reason they don't credit Shaolin has to do with a massacre that happened at Shaolin by an invading army of rebels.
Chen style is a merger of Shaolin AND Taoist 13 Postures routine (5 elements and 8 trigrams or directions).
Jiang Fa and others taught the Chen's the Taoist 13 Postures.

But, the irony is that the 13 Postures came from Shaolin originally and they lost it over time. During that time, the Taoists had learned it and developed it into their Wudang Nei Jia Quan style, so now they are best known for the 13 postures.
Again this is all in my new book.
Soon as I get all the comments back from the reviewers I sent it too, I will make the final draft and layout the pages with graphics and then shop it to publishers.

On top of all this, Shaolin in the Qing Dynasty had a Chan Taiji Quan set that was developed by a nun, she had learned Wudang Taiji and merged it with Shaolin Quan to create it. I have seen versions of it on videos at Google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1501361658783490794&ei=nSm5SeS1HZy4qAOJsJi1AQ&q=buddhist+taiji&hl=en

Awesome!!
Thanks to Gene for publishing the charts & many thanks to Sal for your work!!!! GM Sin has told us for years about Chen drawing from Shaolin (legends of course).....now your putting it all together. Is there any way I can get an autographed copy of the book from you when it comes out???
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

Awesome!!
Thanks to Gene for publishing the charts & many thanks to Sal for your work!!!! GM Sin has told us for years about Chen drawing from Shaolin (legends of course).....now your putting it all together. Is there any way I can get an autographed copy of the book from you when it comes out???
BQ

Sure, why not?

[Baqualin]

Sure, why not?

Thanks...keep us posted.
BQ

[David Jamieson]

To further the convolution...:p

The first movement is also the first movement of the 7th line in the tantui version of 10 roads that I learned.

IE: turn into kao ma with forearms out, drop them to the sides and shoot out to the sides.

after that it's step up on one leg and kick and then do the other side, but it's in there as well.

interesting this shaolin thingy isn't it? lol