questions about tan tui

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Does anyone know what are the reasons behind:

a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you. You then bend forward and bring both of you arms toward your chest. You then swinging both of your arms out, while you are in a bow stance. I think it is road 3.
At first I thought it is a double groin strikes, but the position you are in make it impossible to be double groin strikes.
What is the purpose of this move?

b) Are most of the kicks aim for the knee and waist?

c) If your jump kick missed, what is the defence you would use when your opponet does a stop hit (kick) to your chest, just as you are about to land?
(road 8 or 7)

4) I think in some of the tan tui movements, you deliberately rotate your forearm. What is the purpose of rotating your forearm?

5) In all the roads you start off:
you stand straight and feet together.
your left hand is a straight fist
Your right hand (palm) underneath your left armpit

What is the purpose of this movement?

Sorry I cannot find the link to the web site ,where I got the pictures of the tan tui sequences. I could not tell from the pictures, what are the purpose of those moves. Therefore, I need your help.

Thank you very much
Hitman

[MightyB]

a. there are variations between schools- this doesn't sound like the third road to me- it sounds more like #9 which I was shown as you're countering your opponent's chin na counter.

b. Yes - but the springing leg refers to the knee kick that's repeated a billion times throughout the form.

c. You're screwed.

4) wrist control (seriously)

5) Watch Bruce Lee's first fight on the island with Bob Wall in Enter the Dragon. I've also been shown that move as a counter to a opposite arm single wrist grab.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Dear all,
Does anyone know what are the reasons behind:

a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you. You then bend forward and bring both of you arms toward your chest. You then swinging both of your arms out, while you are in a bow stance. I think it is road 3.
At first I thought it is a double groin strikes, but the position you are in make it impossible to be double groin strikes.
What is the purpose of this move?

b) Are most of the kicks aim for the knee and waist?

c) If your jump kick missed, what is the defence you would use when your opponet does a stop hit (kick) to your chest, just as you are about to land?
(road 8 or 7)

4) I think in some of the tan tui movements, you deliberately rotate your forearm. What is the purpose of rotating your forearm?

5) In all the roads you start off:
you stand straight and feet together.
your left hand is a straight fist
Your right hand (palm) underneath your left armpit

What is the purpose of this movement?

Sorry I cannot find the link to the web site ,where I got the pictures of the tan tui sequences. I could not tell from the pictures, what are the purpose of those moves. Therefore, I need your help.

Thank you very much
Hitman

These are the most important things about tan tui and CMA in general.

a) this is a throw really it is from tong bei, you swing to avoid incoming strike, then as their strike is still in motion, you use their momentum against them and upset their balance and tip them over. It's a basic move found in all tong bei drills.

b) yes, kicks are more than kicks, they are extensions of your body that trip the other person, you like is wedge.

c) done this many times, you yield back and swing your arm under their kick and scoop it up as you stand up, throwing the person back as they flip upside down.

4) rotating the forearm is what keeps you from getting it broken as someone strikes. If you leave it out without rotating, you are inviting a straight down axe on to your bone and it will break. Also, rotating the arm forces the incoming strike to rotate out of range without hurting you. This is a foundamental movement in CMA and all styles do this in some way or another. It is a variation of drilling.

5) That is only done in modern versions of tan tui, like the 12 tan tui. It's just to keep you from wandering your arm from where it should be.

Purpose? If someone grabs your arm, you can wipe their hand off.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank you.

Tan tui resemble western fencing, choy lee fut kung fu and other kung fu styles.

1) You are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you.

a)This movement resemble the lunge used in western fencing. Therefore, it should also containing the same weakness as in western fencing. The weakness is the counter attack/ stop hit to your knee and chest. What is the best defence to avoid thoses stop hit?

b) What is the purpose of putting one hand behind your back, while your other hand in the front does the attack? In western fencing the back hand is for balance.
Does this also apply to movement 1?
or is there a secret movement of leaving your hand behind your back?

Thank you

[TenTigers]

One hand in front with the other in back as you put it, teaches you the body mechanics, for the jik kuen. Once you understand the mechanics,the open bow stance (as opposed to the closed bow, in this case, the kwa is open) the hip and shoulder rotation and the extension of the body and arms, and the coiling/whipping of the spine,then you can shorten it up and bring your rear hand into the guard position. It is a tool. There is a Hebei Hsing-Yi Tan-Tuei that illustrates this.
"From the large, comes the small"

Rotating of the arm comes after the strike. Yes, it can be a locking maneuver, it can be counter locking maneuver, or it can be a running hand, which means, if the strike is blocked, it can circle around and continue to strike.

The hand under the arm as it strikes can be a simultaneous trap/deflect and strike. IMO using one hand to peel away, and then striking is counterproductive-too many movements, when simply hitting would suffice. Too many people get into the block, block, block, then hit mentality when they play application. IMO, TCMA was never meant to be practiced with such an inefficient mentality.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.

[Shaolinlueb]

trying to think of something whitty and quirky to say but i cant think of it right now.
shoot. oh well.

[MightyB]

actually...

from a Mantis perspective- the back hand is an overexaggeration of a grab (diu sau). Say you're in the starting position where you have your right hand extended to your right and your left is in the armpit- your feet are together-

an attacker on your left throws a right foot forward right straight punch- you grab his right with your right hand and simultaneously backfist him with your left (route 1 movement 1).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.

I don't know Sal, that sounds pretty far fetched, anyone that has ever fought more than one person knows that the worse you can do is try to strike two people that the same time.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I don't know Sal, that sounds pretty far fetched, anyone that has ever fought more than one person knows that the worse you can do is try to strike two people that the same time.

Well, that's what's been told to me by various people over the years.

The back person is hit on the way, as you are striking the first person with your right punch, your left fist is swinging out to the left at the same time and hits anyone that happens to be sneaking up to you.

But that's only looking at striking.

If you look at the moves as a take down, your left hand has grabbed the person by the back of the shirt near the neck and is pulling them down over your knee while your right hand is punching/pushing them forward, further upsetting their balance.

This same application is found in Ba Bu Lian Huan set of Shaolin.

[TenTigers]

many of the strikes in Tan Tuei are preceded by large sweeping movents. In Southern boxing as well as Northern, these are clearng movements that control the opponent's arm and body and whip them into the strike.
If you are leaning forward into the bow, and striking foward as well as to the rear, there is no connection or power in the rearward strike. If you are in horse, possibly, but still not likely. Usually techniques are in forms that have been very successful in confrontations. This application would be a highly specialized situation. How often are your two attackers dozing, while standing at your sides?
Better yet, try it and tell me how it works for you. The best litmus test is pressure testing.
Also, it is difficult without seeing the movement to try to hypothesize the application. Are there any clips showing this sequence?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption.
Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the "uber secret" to prove one has the "real" MA.
Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes. it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.
I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.

[MightyB]

Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption.
Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the "uber secret" to prove one has the "real" MA.
Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes. it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.
I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.

Really the applications in this form are pretty basic and straightforward... if one has a teacher that's actually showing them rather than trying to figure out the applications by looking at the sequential pics that KFM published last year. It's not that hard and it's often one of the first forms that's taught in a Chin Wu line school like 7* Mantis or Eagle Claw.

Hitman would be best served by looking up the Mantis guys that post here from his side of the pond to show him the apps. There are several that post here from the isles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Best way to see application is simply to do the form against an opponent.

I have people hold my wrists and then to the form EXACTLY without altering things.
I do the form with a staff, sword, knife, and spear and gain application insights that way too.
I do the form as takedown and throws.
I do the form as scissor cutting moves.
I do the form as simple punching and kicking just for exercise.

[bakxierboxer]

many of the strikes in Tan Tuei are preceded by large sweeping movents. In Southern boxing as well as Northern, these are clearng movements that control the opponent's arm and body and whip them into the strike.


Correct. :)

[bakxierboxer]

Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption....

Horse puckey.



Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the "uber secret" to prove one has the "real" MA.

When they happen to be right.



Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes.

No, they're not.



it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.

That is a process that is something your SiFu is supposed to teach you.
At first you learn applications & their derivation by rote.
SEEing how they are derived is supposed to teach you to properly derive applications on your own.... eventually.



I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.

I strongly disagree with that statement. :eek:
In fact, I think it is just the opposite. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Horse puckey.



Horse don't actually puke that much. :D


When they happen to be right.

When is right.


No, they're not.

Yes they are.


That is a process that is something your SiFu is supposed to teach you.
At first you learn applications & their derivation by rote.
SEEing how they are derived is supposed to teach you to properly derive applications on your own.... eventually.


I strongly disagree with that statement.
In fact, I think it is just the opposite.

The basics, the core, are what matters, I don't see anything going anywhere with out them.
Advanced principles need a solid base to flow from.
Without a stable "launch platform" the most advanced of moves have nothing on them other than fluff.
I have no issues with advanced principles, there are many, even advanced type of training, but advanced techniques?
Not so much.

[bakxierboxer]

Horse don't actually puke that much. :D

"1. puckey
Dried animal feces, typically horse, cow or bull. Often used as an expletive replacement for its more vulgar counterpart, sh*t, and often used by older generations. "

Perhaps you Canadians or your horses are confused.....?



Yes they are.

If you don't know how to recognize or use your basics, that is not my problem.



The basics, the core, are what matters, I don't see anything going anywhere with out them.

Agreed.
Perhaps you need to find someone to re-teach them to you.



Advanced principles need a solid base to flow from.
Without a stable "launch platform" the most advanced of moves have nothing on them other than fluff.

It's not just stability.... it's "working" basics in the sense of both the term "work" as used in physics and of the applicability of a given technique.



I have no issues with advanced principles, there are many, even advanced type of training, but advanced techniques?
Not so much.

That's pretty much the opposite of what you said in your last 2 postings on the "wc form" thread.
The salient point is in your post #26 in which you state in a round-about manner that students need a good teacher. (but not for basics?)

"I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the "intricacies"."

OTOH, this might just be one of your efforts at "promoting conversation".
Whatever the case, I'm done with this.
"Results speak for themselves."

[sanjuro_ronin]

"1. puckey
Dried animal feces, typically horse, cow or bull. Often used as an expletive replacement for its more vulgar counterpart, sh*t, and often used by older generations. "

Perhaps you Canadians or your horses are confused.....?

LOL , yes, you are correct.


If you don't know how to recognize or use your basics, that is not my problem.

Quite, my problem is also forgetting that on the net, you can't tell if someone is serious or joking without smileys, my bad.


Agreed.
Perhaps you need to find someone to re-teach them to you.
I am sure it wouldn't hurt, we call use a good reminder every so often.


It's not just stability.... it's "working" basics in the sense of both the term "work" as used in physics and of the applicability of a given technique.


Agreed.


That's pretty much the opposite of what you said in your last 2 postings on the "wc form" thread.
The salient point is in your post #26 in which you state in a round-about manner that students need a good teacher. (but not for basics?)

"I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the "intricacies"."

OTOH, this might just be one of your efforts at "promoting conversation".
Whatever the case, I'm done with this.
"Results speak for themselves."

The other thread was dealing with video instructionals and coming at them with prior similar points of refernences.
EX: you can learn the basics of BJJ if you have a solid core in Judo but the "intricacies" MAY escape you.

I always promote conversation and debate. its how we challenge the status quo, sorry if that bothers you.

Yes, results do speak for themselves, more than anything else.

[bakxierboxer]

Even though I said I was "done with this".......


LOL , yes, you are correct.

On one, or both, counts? :rolleyes:



Quite, my problem is also forgetting that on the net, you can't tell if someone is serious or joking without smileys, my bad.

I think I recently noted something to the effect that "you are what you post".



The other thread was dealing with video instructionals and coming at them with prior similar points of refernences.
EX: you can learn the basics of BJJ if you have a solid core in Judo but the "intricacies" MAY escape you.

.... and you agreed with the idea that a good teacher might be needed to impart "advanced techniques"/"intricacies". :eek:


I always promote conversation and debate. its how we challenge the status quo, sorry if that bothers you.

I have "less reason to care", since....... :cool:



Yes, results do speak for themselves, more than anything else.

It's kinda nice for a mostly-retired SiFu to see that some of his teachings have survived for 3 more generations. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

On one, or both, counts?

No comment. ;)


I think I recently noted something to the effect that "you are what you post".


Very True.


.... and you agreed with the idea that a good teacher might be needed to impart "advanced techniques"/"intricacies".

What was I thinking ??? ;)


It's kinda nice for a mostly-retired SiFu to see that some of his teachings have survived for 3 more generations.

Traditions die hard, some because they work, some because they don't.
Quite the paradox.

[bakxierboxer]

Traditions die hard, some because they work, some because they don't.
Quite the paradox.


It even happens that some things go on to be taught to a 4th generation...... etc

[Hitman]

Dear all,


a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you (plam strike). You another hand is behind you and you bend your fingers into a hook ( next to your rib).


At first I thought the hook is desgined against a front kick, while you do a plam strike to your opponent's chest. However, when I tested it out against a friend, my wrist was in pain trying to use my hook to hold on to his foot for more than 2 seconds.

What is the reason for the hook?

Thank you very much

[Sal Canzonieri]

Dear all,


a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you (plam strike). You another hand is behind you and you bend your fingers into a hook ( next to your rib).


At first I thought the hook is desgined against a front kick, while you do a plam strike to your opponent's chest. However, when I tested it out against a friend, my wrist was in pain trying to use my hook to hold on to his foot for more than 2 seconds.

What is the reason for the hook?

Thank you very much

Can be used as a chin na move, in case someone grabs your hand when punching.

Have someone hold your wrist, close your eyes, and then do this move correctly, you'll see that it works great to break someone's hold.

( of course don't close your eyes all the time, just when trying the move the first time so you are not distracted)

[IronWeasel]

Downward block=downward strike=downward block...




:cool: <---- Me

[sanjuro_ronin]

Downward block=downward strike=downward block...




:cool: <---- Me

If you are referring to the little exchange between Pete and I, it's just an ongoing tease I have with him :D
We both know they can be both.

[IronWeasel]

If you are referring to the little exchange between Pete and I, it's just an ongoing tease I have with him :D
We both know they can be both.


Ok...gotcha... :o

I guess I'll go and give the wife the ol' Springing Leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok...gotcha... :o

I guess I'll go and give the wife the ol' Springing Leg.

Well, there goes the IP training for 24 hours !
LOL !

[Hitman]

Dear all,

There are four areas in tan tui:

1) Foot work

2) Body work

3) Leg work

4) Hand work


Is it possible for some one to explain to me the meaning of body work?

Thank you very much

[Tainan Mantis]

Shen Fa - body method or body work.
This is the way that you coordinate the body to move the limbs.
So, if shifu says that your body method needs work, he would mean that the hands are moving devoid of coordination to the waist and torso.

1) 'Foot work' this would be bu fu, which is better translated as stepping method. How you dodge, leap and turn.

This article of mine describes it in more detail. The interesting thing of this article are the quotes from Qing Dynasty manuscripts of kung fu.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/deception.htm#deceptiom

[bawang]

Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.

mister cazoneri is right this is exactly what it is for. also, if youhit with the forearms u have to swing really far back
also can be a habit from using the saber because u need a counterbalance and some styles are just sloppy, but the main reason is what mister cazoneri said

[huolung]

Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.

No, this is not some exotic usage, whereby students learn how to knock out two opponents, a shorter one in front and a taller one in back, at the same time. This is mental training, and it can be found in movements throughout all the long fist forms. -Adam Hsu

Namaste

[YouKnowWho]

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.
You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as "front cut" but the others are pure "striking" only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as "hip throw". Since there is no "bending head to touch the legs" in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.

[bawang]

what mister salccanzeri says is right, there is training specifically for this where u hit 8 sand bags all around you
this isnt a "esoteric" explanation this is a common technique in north kung fu, "erlang climbs the mountain" "luohan carries burden" where you punch a second guy in the nuts behind u
this is a habit from using the double hammer or ax where you always swing all the way behind you to get momentum
also can be a habit of using a heavy saber for couterbalance

[Sal Canzonieri]

You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as "front cut" but the others are pure "striking" only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as "hip throw". Since there is no "bending head to touch the legs" in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.

I can easily, very easily, do all the rows in tan toi as "takedowns. The leg positions at the end of each movement are a clear indicator of how to do it. They are slanted for taking down an opponent. The rest of the movements are for scissoring through an opponent and unbalancing them for a takedown.

Every teacher I had has shown me how to this.

And the same is true for every long fist set I know (Shaolin, Cha Quan, etc., etc.).

Punching and kicking is just one level of usage, then comes Chin na, then comes takedowns.

I've done long fist sets since 1975, always was shown each level of usage.

[YouKnowWho]

Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don't know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don't see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the "intend" is missing (not enough "pulling" intend).

http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV

[golden arhat]

i learnt up to 8th road of tan tui with applications


i gotta say i didnt see it coming in use

maybe its just me but i've gotta ask, are the movements in tan tui exaggerations on real moves used for practise's sake ?


like extending too far when punching to practise penetrating power


??

[Sal Canzonieri]

Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don't know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don't see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the "intend" is missing (not enough "pulling" intend).

http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV

Well, look, a takedown is not only a throw. A throw is one type of takedown. Any movement that causes the opponent to unbalance and fall to the ground is a takedown.
You can do that by throwing a person (using all the different classic ways of doing that), or you can do that by executing the exact same movements as a kick or punch but using those movements to scissor the opponents body and unbalance them, "a kick is not a kick, a punch is not a punch".
Many takedowns are about stepping into an opponent's space and unbalancing them while doing movements in reaction to being grabbed.

The beginning of Row #8 is a classic tong bei type takedown movement. You quickly move out of the way of an incoming strike, you suddenly turn back trapping their arm, and you do a parting the horse's mane movement, which first pulls them down and then up and over.

Row #9 is classic takedown from XY and Ba Fan Shan style: your wrists are grabbed, you turn out your arms as in XY Tai (sometimes called Ostrich) which overturns your opponents arms and traps them, then you jump step through the opponents center and push them over with your palms hitting their waist/ribs area, which tips them over and down.
Done it many times.

Row #10 rushes the opponent and trips them over your extended legs as you pull them, you keep going with the movements until you overwhelm them and they fall.

Most people do not appreciate long fist because they only saw one small part of it's use. Also, if you really study where movements in styles come from (like the research I do) you can see that tan toi absorbed movements from tong bei, Tai Zu Quan, hong quan, Mi Song Quan, and so on. When you see these movements done in those styles, you can see how they apply them.

Kicking and Punching is just the very beginning.

One can only see by doing, not thinking.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i learnt up to 8th road of tan tui with applications


i gotta say i didnt see it coming in use

maybe its just me but i've gotta ask, are the movements in tan tui exaggerations on real moves used for practise's sake ?


like extending too far when punching to practise penetrating power


??

Well, that simply means you only are looking on the surface of the form, not how and why movements are done. That's what most people do when they learn forms and then they become just dance movements.
There are no set applications to any forms, there is only the natural movements you do and the results that you want. If your intend is to take down the opponent instead of fighting them, you will get different results.

tan Toi is a distillation of movements from various Cha Quan sets. Cha Quan is a Moslem Chinese martial art which absorbed movements from many styles in Shantong province and where it was originally from (western china).
Cha Quan applications are pretty fierce, they don't fool around.

What looks like horse stance and bow stances are also takedowns.

I'm 50 years old, I learned how to understand forms because I started learning back in the 1970s, when training was very hard and very focused on saving your life. Not trying to sound like a braggart, please.

Maybe I should hold seminars on how to use forms for real.

I even showed a Tae Kwon Do black belt that all their sets are also takedowns. When they didn't understand, I said 'What set do you know the very most?', they showed me it, and then I said okay I will grab your wrists right now and you do the set exactly as you learned it, forget about me holding your wrists (very tight), and their movements proceeded to take me down and fall.
What looked like punches and kicks were now obvious set ups for unbalancing and then tripping the opponent.

There's now a good book about this called "Barefoot Zen", read it, it's insightful.

[YouKnowWho]

Row #9 is classic takedown from XY and Ba Fan Shan style: your wrists are grabbed, you turn out your arms as in XY Tai (sometimes called Ostrich) which overturns your opponents arms and traps them, then you jump step through the opponents center and push them over with your palms hitting their waist/ribs area, which tips them over and down.
Done it many times.
But the "push them over with your palms" is not part of the form. If you add "push" in any forward movement by using your leg to trap your opponent's legs then every move can be a throw.

[Sal Canzonieri]

But the "push them over with your palms" is not part of the form. If you add "push" in any forward movement by using your leg to trap your opponent's legs then every move can be a throw.

At the end of #9, of the Cha Quan 10 Tan toi, not the standard 12 Tan toi, there is a final movement with both palms making a v shape as they extend out, which would slam into an opponent's under rib area and knock them back.

Many applications have more movement than it's analogous move in a form.

If you think of moving natural and don't worry about an "exact" application, then forms offer a treasure trove of techniques in every posture. Many applications will arise.

That's why they say to practice a form until it does not exist anymore.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, a successful take down will require 3 contact points, an arm pulling, a shoulder pushing, and a leg hooking. Those requirements are not completed in Tan Tui training. I started my Tan Tui training since 1962. I do wish that Tan Tui could contain all the throwing skill that I need.

[Sal Canzonieri]

IMO, a successful take down will require 3 contact points, an arm pulling, a shoulder pushing, and a leg hooking. Those requirements are not completed in Tan Tui training. I started my Tan Tui training since 1962. I do wish that Tan Tui could contain all the throwing skill that I need.

That's Shui Jiao style takedowns, yes.

I've learned many takedowns from forms in Shaolin sets and tan tui sets, where we scissor through the opponent.

Case in point, many forms in long fist have a movement where it looks like you are stepping forward in bow right stance while doing right punch (or left bow/left punch).

Well, if done as a takedown (I've done it many times in street fights), as the person attacks you step so that you are on the outside of their body, your punching arm slices through them as you step so that their body is cu tin half by your extended arm and your non extended arm grabs the back of their front leg's knee, the momentum of your stepping makes the guys fall to the ground.

All shaolin forms have this move, tan tui can be used the same way.

Learned this from many teacher's of Shaolin, and specifically about tan tui from student of late master Fan Chi Sau, among others, about 20 years ago.

[YouKnowWho]

That's Shui Jiao style takedowns, yes.
IMO, there is no such thing as SC take down vs. LF take down.

Trapping your opponent's leg to take him down may work against average people but with people who has "leg escape" training, you may still give him too much freedom.

If you push my right shoulder,

- (1 contact point) then I can borrow your force to spin (yield) and get out of it.
- and at the same time you hook my right leg (2 contact points) then I can still borrow your force to spin and use my body rotation to pull my right leg out of your hooking.
- and at the same time you hook my left leg (2 contact points) then I can not borrow your force to spin because you use 2 dimensional force. But since my arms are still free, I can interrupt your pushing.
- and at the same time you pull my right arm (2 contact points) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate since you pull my right arm. But since my legs are still free, I can hook my leg on your leg and make your body and my body to be one unit. Any force that you apply on me will be transferred back to you.
- and at the same time you pull my right arm, and hook one of my legs (3 contact points - whether you hook my right leg or left leg, the result will be the same) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate, and I cannot use my leg to hook yours, you have just taken my defense away.

We should not just talk about take down without talking about "how to take your opponent's defense away". We will need "one pulling arm" and "one hooking leg" along with our "pushing" in order to achieve the maximum result.


late master Fan Chi Sau,
One of my LF brother also trained with him. An excellent CMA master. My Tan Tui came from GM Han Ching-Tan's student master Li Mo-Chin and I learned it in my 1st year of my senior high.

[Sal Canzonieri]

IMO, there is no such thing as SC take down vs. LF take down.

Trapping your opponent's leg to take him down may work against average people but with people who has "leg escape" training, you may still give him too much freedom.

If you push my right shoulder,

- (1 contact point) then I can borrow your force to spin (yield) and get out of it.
- and at the same time you hook my right leg (2 contact points) then I can still borrow your force to spin and use my body rotation to pull my right leg out of your hooking.
- and at the same time you hook my left leg (2 contact points) then I can not borrow your force to spin because you use 2 dimensional force. But since my arms are still free, I can interrupt your pushing.
- and at the same time you pull my right arm (2 contact points) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate since you pull my right arm. But since my legs are still free, I can hook my leg on your leg and make your body and my body to be one unit. Any force that you apply on me will be transferred back to you.
- and at the same time you pull my right arm, and hook one of my legs (3 contact points - whether you hook my right leg or left leg, the result will be the same) then I cannot borrow your force to rotate, and I cannot use my leg to hook yours, you have just taken my defense away.

We should not just talk about take down without talking about "how to take your opponent's defense away". We will need "one pulling arm" and "one hooking leg" along with our "pushing" in order to achieve the maximum result.


One of my LF brother also trained with him. An excellent CMA master. My Tan Tui came from GM Han Ching-Tan's student master Li Mo-Chin and I learned it in my 1st year of my senior high.

Yes, I am in total agreement about everything you said, those conditions of course exist as you described in those situations.

But, maybe what I am talking about is a different way to do takedown?

In Tai Zu Quan, Rou Quan, Hong Quan, and other long fist styles and sets from Shaolin influence, and in White Ape Tong Bei, and in Ba Fan Shan, I learned to scissor an opponent.

It did not involve pulling an arm or hooking a leg. Rather, as you redirected the opponent's strike to outside of our body at a sharp angle with your right arm (for example), which moved the opponent so as to start to unbalance him; at the same time, your left side of your body rammed through the opponent's center line, so that your extended left arm was on one side and your left leg on the other side of his body. Your left arm pass through but doesn't push, your whole body pushes and squeezes the opponent's body, your left leg doesn't hook either. It looks like a scissor is cutting him.

If you did this movement without an opponent, it looks really too simple:
first step at a 45 degree angle with your right leg as you circle out (parry) clockwise with your right arm, then withdraw this arm and hand becomes a hook and withdraws to your right side. Suddenly, then you "punch with your left arm" as you first extend your left leg into bow stance and then move into a one legged stance (bearing weight on left leg).

[mickey]

Greetings,

Tan Tui, Second Road:

http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=68cd98937179bb3b_landing



mickey

[YouKnowWho]

2nd road?

http://www.wushu.cz/shaolin_tantui_cz.html

[mickey]

Greetings,

Yes, YouKnowwho.

The guy on the right is doing it, pretty much. The ripping pull and upper body rotation that would help the tachnique is not there, though. That photo is as close as I could get to showing that application of "Cross Leg," the second road of both 10 and 12 line Tan Tui (I am not tech savvy).

(Edit: YouKnowWho, I took a moment to try to speak your language. Please consult the Chan Chiao book. The second road incorporates the concept of "Yao" as described on page 83 and demonstrated in fig.198. There is a similar demonstration on page 17 fig. 18.)

When you get past the punch and kick by getting "closer" to your opponent with the moves, the grappling and throwing stuff starts popping up with a passion.

mickey

[mickey]

YouKnowWho,

My "edit" was to make sure that you got what I was talking about. Nothing more.

Respectfully,

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I now see what you and Sal were talking about. In Tan Tui, there is always a "pull" when you "punch". So if you modify the angle of your kick, it can always be a sweep or scoop. In Tan Tui #2, the kick is a back to front straight line. In the application that you have described, the kick is a 45 degree curve line. Also in the form the right hand punches straight forward and moves the opposite direction as the left hand is moving. In the application, the right hand moves the same direction as the left hand instead. If you modify like this then you can use it to train "forward kick - sweep" or "scoop".

[mickey]

Yesss!!!

Now you got it.

That will be a thousand dollars....American. :)

mickey

[mickey]

More....

YouKnowWho, do you remember this post?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37304

I was describing something similar to "Trunk Hitting" (Zhuang) and "Advanced Squeeze" (Kao)(Chan Chiao pg 20-21, fig. 27-32) combined with Elbow Cracking and a lower leg attack if "Yao" does not work.

Good Gosh! This Chan Chiao book is good. I can converse with you now. :)

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

Mickey:

Can't believe this discussion had happened 5 years ago. In that CC book, the "4 sides" and "2 doors" are good but you may still be able to get those information from any Judo book. The best part of that CC book is the "butterfly hands" section. Even David's students didn't feel those information should be released to the public domain. It contains a complete set of "grip fighting skill" and excellent "entering strategy".

[Sal Canzonieri]

I now see what you and Sal were talking about. In Tan Tui, there is always a "pull" when you "punch". So if you modify the angle of your kick, it can always be a sweep or scoop. In Tan Tui #2, the kick is a back to front straight line. In the application that you have described, the kick is a 45 degree curve line. Also in the form the right hand punches straight forward and moves the opposite direction as the left hand is moving. In the application, the right hand moves the same direction as the left hand instead. If you modify like this then you can use it to train "forward kick - sweep" or "scoop".

Cool, this is true for all long fists sets too.

One thing to think about concerning tan tui, first investigate where it comes from.

We know it is practiced in Shantung province, and for a very long time, at least since Qing dynasty, which means by now it has been influenced by other Shantung martial arts such as Mi Song / Yan Qing, Hong Quan, Tai Zu, Mantis, etc.

Tan Tui is part of the Cha Quan system, which is either founded in the Tang Dynasty or the Ming dynasty, depending on which version of history you believe.
It is known that it is a training set abbreviated from various Moslem martial arts that were derived from Jiazi (frame) Boxing, which was originally from Western China (Mi Song also has Jiazi Quan). The various Moslem martial arts are Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Hong (slippery, not red) Quan, Tui (leg) Quan, and some others.

Looking at Tan Tui's roots will give one a better idea of it's original body mechanics, strategy, and movements, rather than how it is generally done today, which may have become deluded and distorted over time.

I love looking at Mi Song sets and seeing Tan Tui movements inside the postures, then looking at the applications of these Mi Song sets and then re-applying them to the analogous Tan Tui movement. You see applications that you never realized were possible this way. But they are there.

Kicking and punching and stretching is barely scratching the surface of these sets.

Same is true for any other long fist set.

[ngokfei]

ah a topic I love.

Happy new Year Sal and Mickey.

eric

[Sal Canzonieri]

ah a topic I love.

Happy new Year Sal and Mickey.

eric

You too.

I've been spending a lot of time researching Ba Fan Shan style sets and the eagle claw technique of Yueh Fei is always prominent.

I think it went from Ba Fan Shan to Shaolin Luohan over time.
But the real roots of this Shaolin Luohan is an ancient Dragon set from Louyang city.

My research is showing that The classic eagle claw grasp technique of Yueh Fei found in Ba Fan Shan is the exact same thing as Hong Quan movement in all Shaolin long fist sets, and the very same thing as Pi Quan in Xing Yi, and the very same thing as Brush Knee, Wash face in Tai Ji Quan.

[mickey]

Hi ngokfei,

Happy New Year to you as well.


mickey

[Northwind]

2nd road?

http://www.wushu.cz/shaolin_tantui_cz.html

As a general reference this may be nice but ... whew ... I hope no one tries to learn nor compare or judge a form based on things like that...

[YouKnowWho]

Can't get any argument out of that form. Young, nice muscle, nice structure, good flexibility.

[Northwind]

Can't get any argument out of that form. Young, nice muscle, nice structure, good flexibility.

Not sure I understand what you mean by that, but I agree that the form is pretty great - a lot of northern stylists will say "no tan tui, no kung fu"...

[YouKnowWho]

I mean that "hand drawing" are so perfect and everybody will wish that they can do forms just like that drawing.

[Northwind]

Oh lol yes.
Well, there definitely is that. And then of course, there is the way too straight limbs, missing transitions, and much more.

What is horrible and yet funny is that I have come across people who claimed to have studied this style or that or maybe just even a form, and when you watch them do it - it's much too obvious that they bought a book and tried to replicate what they read or saw.