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prana
09-17-2001, 02:04 AM
Buddha Maitreya, the Buddha of all encompassing wisdom has been prophesized by the Buddhist calender to be borned fairly soon.

Apparently, a similar Prophecy also "dances" in the bible...from the old testament
"Prophetically, the child Isaac, which means 'Laughter,' is being released in nation after nation as the new wine is being passed"

I do not know much about the bible, so you Christians out there can help me out. The Buddhist prophecies of Maitreya is one of happiness and love, and infinite compassion.

He is to borned approximately 2500 years after Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment.

It has also been said that a 100 years before his birth, will be great suffering and war. He, Buddha Maitreya shall lead the world to change its ways. There shall be much famine just before, and the life expectancy is about 10-15. Food is in shortage and artificial food is manufactured.

A new era of peace shall be borned following Maitreya's birth. I look forward to his birth.

The same reason Naropa emphasised his lineage should be kept as only an oral transmission for 13 centuries before being openly taught.

Any1 want to add to this ? There is plenty more to discuss... such as the Aquarius, the Mayan 22-12-2012, and the Egyption pyramids end of era.

[This message was edited by prana on 09-17-01 at 05:17 PM.]

Nutt'nhunny
09-17-2001, 02:12 AM
oh so now the great fear is creating messiahs.

kungfu cowboy
09-17-2001, 02:20 AM
I just love a good fairy tale!

prana
09-17-2001, 02:32 AM
I know the things I believe in are very far out and probably ludricrous for most people. If there was a topic on the biggest weirdo here, I have no doubts I shall be voted.

"Either your two side channels are open, and your central channel closed, or
your central channel open, and your two side channels closed.
These are the only alternatives..."
Lama Yeshe quoting Lama Tsongkhapa

Martial Joe
09-17-2001, 02:34 AM
and how do you know this is true?

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

prana
09-17-2001, 02:44 AM
The prophecy of Maitreya is has been a followed tradition for, well 2500 years. Statues of Maitreya are erected all over Buddhist temples.
One of such, the tallest Buddhist statue ever "The Maitreya Project" currently being erected in India, funded by Buddhists all over the world to commemorate (?) his birth.

joedoe
09-17-2001, 03:00 AM
How do you know anything is true?

It is simply a belief - a Buddhist belief. No more or less valid than any other belief.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Grappling-Insanity
09-17-2001, 03:27 AM
Its wierd how religions kinda work together. Now i'm no religious freak, but I think i know a lil bit.

>>It has also been said that a 100 years before his birth, will be great suffering and war.<<

Does this not sound like revalations???? and like I said i'm not a religous Know it all, but doesnt Jesus come back at the end of revalations???

joedoe
09-17-2001, 03:33 AM
Religions are often very similar, particularly Christianity and Buddhism. So much so that even the Catholic Church has recognised that they are "the same but different".

Religions often borrow concepts from each other and incorporate them into their own framework. Concepts get dropped too. If you look back in Christianity's history, there are a lot of concepts there that look very much like Buddhism and Taoism, but they were progressively dropped.

BTW Revelations supposedly a rip-off from the Zoarastrian vision of the end days.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Nexus
09-17-2001, 03:38 AM
prana. You are the buddha, who are you kidding? You are waiting only for yourself, and unless you reach into yourself for such wisdom, you will not recognize it when it stands before you.

One buddha knows another at a glance.

If he who leads with compassion is you, then you will change the world with just a smile.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

prana
09-17-2001, 03:40 AM
I do not know much about Christianity at this depth, but one thing is for sure, when I use the word Buddha, I use it in its true meaning, to mean the enlightened one. I do not imply he has to be a "Buddhist" sitting in meditation. He is the one who will bring peace to the world in the form of great loving kindness and leadership in that respect.

I think in that sense, he could be, in the eyes of Christians, the return of Christ

joedoe
09-17-2001, 03:45 AM
Everyone has the chance to be a Buddha, but not everyone will reach Buddhahood. :)

Everyone needs something to hope for and a leader to inspire them. I guess to many Buddhists that is what Maitreya represents.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

HuangKaiVun
09-17-2001, 03:50 AM
Interesting thread.

I shall watch the world closely, prana.

soy
09-17-2001, 07:16 AM
Seems appropriate. I could definetly see ways changing for the better.

fiercest tiger
09-17-2001, 07:24 AM
prana- buddha bless you and everyone on earth! you are a kind person, i like that! :)

i was told the burning bush story in the bible was taken from buddhist stories can you clarify that?

peace

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

Scarletmantis
09-17-2001, 08:16 AM
A very interesting, if not well known fact:

"Buddhisim recieved it's greatest impetus when the emperor of India, Asoka converted to the new religion. Asoka who ruled from 268 to 232 B.C.E., converted to Buddhisim in 297 B.C.E. He became convinced that, unlike other religions of India, Buddhisim was potentially a religion for all the peoples of the world.

"Thus, he was the first Buddhist to send missionaries to other contries in an attempt to teach non-Indians... the Thirteenth Rock edict of Asoka claims that his missionaries went as far west as Syria and Greece!

"There is (archeological) evidence of cultural exchange between India and the Hellenized world, which supports Asoka's claim."

- Hopfe and Woodward, Religions of the World (8th edition)

There you go! :D

"The essence of life is struggle, and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war." - The Way and the Power

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:17 AM
This is coinciding with the change of the great age. Jesus marked the beginning of the piscian age. Which has been speculated as to why the fish was the first christian symbol. Sometime after 2048 the age of aquarius is said to begin and a new avatar is expected to arrive.

[This message was edited by SifuAbel on 09-17-01 at 11:31 PM.]

joedoe
09-17-2001, 08:27 AM
So it is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius :).

I definitely think the world has entered a new stage.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:29 AM
Yeah, you know, like the song.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

prana
09-17-2001, 08:30 AM
"One buddha knows another at a glance"

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me.
Gods see water as the elixir of life.
Humans see water as a neccesity of life.
Ghosts see water as the putrid blood.
Hell beings see water as burning lava.


ft,

Unfortunately, I am not able to shed light on the burning bush. I am hoping someone else here can and will. I tried to read a topic on it but couldn't understand any of the language used in the bible. It is very "heavy".

The mind is like a candle flame, blown by the 5 winds of distraction, to the past and future.

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:41 AM
Basically Moses went up the to the top of Mt. Sinai under a strange influence. There, god manifested itself as a burning bush or a feild of transparent energy in front of a bush and told moses to go to egypt and tell the king to free the jews from slavery. After being in Gods presence his hair turned snowy white. He then had an episode of lost time and came back in a couple of weeks, which to him was only a couple of days. Infused with powere he collected himself and began his trek.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:44 AM
In a loose connection you could compare it with the Bhagavad-Gita. Where the perfect warrior Arjuna is consoled by the the terrestrial form of Krishna. Which , in order to convice arjuna that life is transient reveals his godlyness to him.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

joedoe
09-17-2001, 08:45 AM
Sounds a little like some alien abduction stories - lost time etc. I once read the book "The Bible Code" and the author postulates the theory that God is in fact some alien that is trying to direct the course of Human development. Interesting theory. :)

There are parallels of the burning bush in Buddhist legend I believe - where the bush/tree is burning but is not consumed by the fire.

There are actually a lot of common mythological devices within both Christian and Buddhist stories.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:48 AM
Aliens have crossed my mind. Sobering thought, what if we are just some high school experiment on evolutionary physics 101. Or, we are being manipulated by out future selves in order to change the outcome of some strange catastrophy.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

fiercest tiger
09-17-2001, 08:49 AM
you have your stories mixed with shaolin temple being burnt! bak mei white hair and the burning bush..lol

thanks for the info, but the burning bush story of the buddhist is supposively older and simmilar. i also seen a doco on the bible and they mentioned the burning bush to be a plant that ignites at a hot temperature in the desert in those countries.

have you ever heard of a plant like that? who needs to light fires when the bush can do it for you! :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:52 AM
I don't think I have it wrong.

The bush was not being consumed as in a fire. It was supposedly unharmed after the episode was over.

Somebody ask that Rabbi that's always on PBS, he'll know.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

joedoe
09-17-2001, 08:52 AM
Well, Michael Drosnin's theory was that anything that is outside of our technological know-how seems like magic or godly power to us. The burning bush and the voices from afar could probably easily be reproduced nowadays with modern special effects, so does that make us gods? No. But as we advance in our own technology, then 'magic' has to take on new dimensions.

So, the theory goes, God is in fact an alien (or gorup of aliens) directing the development of the human species using its superior technology to fool us into thinking that it is a god that is watching over us.

Interesting theory.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 08:53 AM
Then the interesting issue is , WHY?

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Wu Wei
09-17-2001, 09:44 AM
You have come across topics I have studied for a few years now.

Firstly:
I find it incredible how different religions from around the world and from countries that for a long time had little or no interaction, could end up with such similarites in their religions.

As for the Bible Code book:
many many scholars have dismissed it as rubish. That being said, it is still interesting.

As for the times of peace in biblical prophecies:
They come before the end times. This is a vague description, but good enough for all intents and purposes. I personally don't believe that the end of the world is near at hand, but the world clearly is changing, in ways which may facilitate in it's end.

As for miracles:
A miracle mayhaps just be that which we cannot scientifically explain at the time, but that does not negate how miraculous some easily explained things are. From my christian theological perspective; God does not create nor do things which are contradictory to things he has set forth in the past, therefore there are concrete rules in the physical realm and science hypothetically could explain all physical occurances. But that still doesnt negate the spiritual.

As for the God being an alien thing:
It may be possible for what some percieve as God or god's or other spirits to be extraterrestrial beings. However, the Christian notion of God supercedes anything like that, and even if there were God-like beings out there, there would still be the necessity for God.
(keep in mind these are my beliefs based on 12 years of christian living and about 3 years of skeptical study into archaeology relating to religions, philosophy and theology, and I am not trying to actively 'argue' with anyone here)

As for the original topic:
The notion of the Buddha Maitreya is interesting and the way in which you(Prana) describe it does fit in with some Biblical prophecy.
and...
"when I use the word Buddha, I use it in its true meaning, to mean the enlightened one. "
That is very interesting to think about. When one thinks in literal terms of Buddhism, there are even more connections to Christianity.

I've rambled enough... my apologies. :D

Success is a label made by the insecure.

prana
09-17-2001, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I find it incredible how different religions from around the world and from countries that for a long time had little or no interaction, could end up with such similarites in their religions.[/quote]

Almost like how miraculous it is to find pyramids built thousands of years ago, in Egypt, in Central America, near Tibet and underneath the ocean in Okinawa. Yet human beings are stubborn with their pride to belief that there could be anymore than what they can put logic too.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They come before the end times. This is a vague description, but good enough for all intents and purposes. I personally don't believe that the end of the world is near at hand, but the world clearly is changing, in ways which may facilitate in it's end.[/quote]

Indeed, when/if I speak of the "end of the world", I mean the end of the world as we know it to be, greed, suffering, pride, hunger, destroying nature. And a move towards peace, loving kindness. And this, I look forward to. It does not neccesrily imply the destruction of all lifeform.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've rambled enough... my apologies. [/quote]
Don't apologise. Tis good to generate what Buddhist call "Boddhicitta" even by means of speech, and of course, sharing your knowledge. Oterhwise, I wouldn't have participated...

It could also be interesting to add, many of the "prophecies" indicate a great change in the world during the transition period between Pisces and Aquarius. Also to note that the magnetic poles of the sun (and in due course, earth) are due to change, and may cause the melting of the south pole. We might even learn of the frozen "earlier" intelligence on this planet.

Also consistent is Einstein prediction of the "orange" world, where the crusts shall move violently.

Great to know that there are so many interested minds out there in search of peace.

The mind is like a candle flame, blown by the 5 winds of distraction, to the past and future.

SifuAbel
09-17-2001, 10:46 AM
Polar shifts are tricky business. It would radically change the balance of the continental plates. The poles wont exactly melt, but they would shift over to the correct place. Which would utterly destroy everything in it's path. Anything found on that south polar continent would be underground. A sudden polar shift would be earth shattering. It is theorized that such an event turned the home of the mammoth from a tropical paradise to an ice field. The sudden inertial boom would destroy every city in the world. That would really suck, and I do mean that literally. The atmoshphere would take an earth moment to readjust, causing a momentary thining of the atmoshere on one side and an extremely high pressure on the other. At the lowest pressure everything would flash freeze. On the highest everything would be crushed. Weather will go haywire for a few years.

prana
09-17-2001, 12:35 PM
I am quite saddened by how many people are trying to cash in on Lord Maitreya's prophecy...

http://maitreya.topcities.com/maitreya.html
www.maitreya.org (http://www.maitreya.org)

Quite funny too actually.... sigh

The mind is like a candle flame, blown by the 5 winds of distraction, to the past and future.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 02:35 PM
The Greek/Indian connection is interesting, ScarletMantis, do you have any more specific information on that? I know that some parallels can be drawn between Buddhist and Stoic philosophies, despite fundamental differences.

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 02:59 PM
Everyone has the potential to become a Buddha, here and now.

Some already now that the Buddha nature is inside them, and by stopping all thoughts of future messiahs, and present woes and so on lets it shine through.

Do not wait to be freed by some future prophet, free yourself now.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

origenx
09-17-2001, 03:27 PM
For all you have have recently speculated upon the possibility that "God" is just aliens or some other type of advanced (but not omnipotent) beings, congratulations. You're awakening and breaking the "Godspell." Please read this article, it nicely sums up the research that has been going in this theory for the past several decades:

http://www.paranormalnews.com/article.asp?ArticleID=29

But here's some interesting tidbits just to whet your appetite - according to Zechariah Stitchin, one of the world's only and foremost experts on Sumeric cuneiform:

The original word for "ADAM" meant "slave worker,"
hence:
"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam,..." - Genesis 5:2

And "God" sometimes refers to himself in the plural sense:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,..." - Genesis 3:22
That's because there were actually many different beings' names used in the original texts, but later translators just generically relabelled them all "God."

Alien/human interbreeding:
"...sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." - Genesis 6:2
The aliens (God) saw this further interspecial breeding as evil, and so saved no one in the coming Flood except Noah, who was "...perfect in his generations..." (Genesis 6:9) - meaning his bloodline had not re-bred with aliens.

Of course, humans were alien/apeman hybrids to begin with...which explains how we seem to be partially the product of eons of natural evolution, but also "created" or "jumpstarted" to some degree. So the evolutionists and Creationists are both half-right.

Anyways, its all a very interesting theory and actually makes a sh*tload of sense. I'm just glad other people are starting to realize this as well. Modern-day Christianity is a joke! It's been completely twisted around like a pretzel! The Old Testament was really just one huge alien/human soap opera, and the New Testament a political rebellion against Rome.

origenx
09-17-2001, 03:49 PM
Even if some Buddha Maitreya is one day born and helps lead this world to peace, he will only be a holographic materialization of the Buddha within all of us. That "Buddha" is all those good qualities that we possess (if not always use), such as complete unbiased devotion to the truth (not twisted propaganda), siding with right (not just might), love for all and unity (not division from self-interests), compassion, goodwill, unattachment & tolerance, etc... Recently, more and more, I have increasingly lost faith in the common man. Give him the opportunity to lie, cheat and steal for a little self-gain, and 90% will. Rarely now, am I "disappointed" in this. The "Buddha" is supressed in all of us right now, and so "Buddha Maitreya" won't reappear until great tragedies knock some sense and decency back into us all.

Conversely, madmen arise to power because we have largely reverted to our self-serving divisive sides, as one can easily observe in today's world.

But, like the Taiji, going to the extremes of war can only eventually flip-flop into the extremes of peace.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 03:54 PM
Old Jong, I think this forum will soon need you in a professional capacity. :eek:

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 03:56 PM
My God, are all of you from California or something, have you been sprayed?

What ever happened to the cosmos developing form a singularity (the universe is expanding very rapidly so in the past it was closer, at one time singular)expanding, cooling, gases, hydrogen, meteors bringing in the basis building blocks of life, time, more time, single cells, devision of cells, evolution?

No, could never be. Must be aliens. And they are a strange bunch, revealing themselevs only to the most uncredible people on the planet.

I do believe that life is existing in other places in this huge universe. I do not know if any of it would have the technological ability to do the impossible -- travel faster than light -- to actual be vacationing in the Milky Way.

Coming Buddha's, aliens, these are are speculative. Better to get on your hands and knees and study something concrete, factual, tangible. These other theories are "what ifs."

No matter what, relies that there is a natural mystic running through all of us, it is what annimates our mere body of flesh -- chi. Where did it come from? Who knows? Who can become better equainted with it and make it more powerful? You.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 04:02 PM
PS

Why is it so hard to believe that those pyramids were built by the hands of man -- by thousands of slaves?

In the future, after we are blown ourselves up, perhaps someone or something will discover "A lost civilization" built by super powers. Buildings made of glass that reach the sky. Imagine what they would think of our movies, Godzilla?

Give more credit to our anscestors. Technology may have been different, but still the same curious, adventurous mind.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

Radhnoti
09-17-2001, 04:34 PM
Hey Bak Mei,

I'm of a scientific bent (philosophically speaking) myself, thought I'd throw this at you.
Did you know that scientists have recently been able to accelerate particles so that they are traveling FASTER than the speed of light? There WAS some sort of trick used, I wish I had the URL for the article in front of me...
Another "impossible" thing that scientists have recently done involving Quantum mechanics: They seperated two linked particles by a few miles. Any way they turned one of the particles, the other particle mirrored. INSTANTANEOUSLY. No visible connection, no speed of light time lapse.
A lot of the things we consider scientific "laws" are being bent to the point of breaking.
Anyone ever heard the analogy where scientists are climbing this vast mountain? Step by step, gaining altitude as they learn more and more. Finally reaching the top, they look and find a mystic who's been sitting there for years. I try to never belittle those of a mystic bent, they MAY already be sitting where I'll end up. ;)

BAI HE
09-17-2001, 04:38 PM
dO THEY KNOW SPACE KARATE?

http://www.geocities.com/psycho_enishi/animecons/sakura01/photos/01-akuma.jpg

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 04:44 PM
I am of a scientific bent, in that I want to see evidence of points being made, but at the same time feel as if I have a deep mystic mind. My father tuned me on to Taoism at a pretty young age, like 7 or 8, against my Christian mothers aproval. She thought it would confuse me, it only made me see the truth more clearly.

As for the paricles passing light speed this is how they did it:

The particles were near light speed but could not reach it, a difference of less than 5 miles an hour. So they spun the tunnels they were traveling in counter to their movement by a speed greater than 5 miles an hour.

We still have a long way to go but I am happy that we are continuing our search. I'd would much rather have seen that super conductor they wanted to build than more Stealth Bombers. But ....

Stillness in the heart of motion.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 04:56 PM
Bak Mei, do you have a link to a site with info about that experiment? The whole point of the special theory of relativity is that experiments like that *don't* work. I'd be interested to find out why they've started working all of a sudden. Was the speed of light measured from the reference frame of the rotating tunnel?

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 04:59 PM
I am not going to belittle anyone else's religion here. I am simply going to offer the Christian view of what has been talked about on this thread.

All of this "age of aquarius", "all religions are basically the same", "Christianity is like Buddhism" talk is very interesting, but from the Christian perspective it is part of the deception of the devil.

It is a deception to believe that all religions lead to the same place. They do not. It is a lie.

I have heard many people say that Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, and Jesus were all prophets or christs and each offered a piece of the whole truth. This is also a lie. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me."

He made no mention of Buddha, or Krishna, or Mohammed. Jesus is the one and only Christ.

To the Christian, much of our present state has been expected; false prophets, end time predictions, etc. In the book of Revelation, John talks about the great harlet that will lead many to destruction. The harlet is often interpreted as the religious system of the end times. That is a religious system that accepts all religions into it. A combined faith if you will. A belief that Buddhism is just as viable as Christianity, or Hinduism, or Islam.

If it seems as if all of these world religions have similarities, you are right, they do. That is what makes the deception so convincing. If it seems as if it is so simple to see and realize how well the different religions of the world fit together and compliment one another. Again, you are right, it was designed that way by the evil one.
In our culture, if you embrace this concept of "all are one", you are considered enlightened. To be Christian and accept only one way, you are considered stupid, ignorant, prejudiced. Many people now considers Christians to be a hate group.

Oddly enough, all of this is coinciding with the bible. Jesus said it would be this way. "When they hate you and deliver you up to the courts to be condemned, know that they first hated me."

Please understand that I am not meaning to insult anyone here. I am merely expressing the Christian standpoint as I understand and believe it.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 05:05 PM
Okay, so basically what you're saying to people who believe in non-Christian religions is "I'm not trying to insult you, but what you hold most dear is nothing but a tissue of lies concocted by the most evil being imaginable."

Cool, that makes sense. :D

dwid
09-17-2001, 05:05 PM
It's funny how people have this tendency to make sense of the world around them using whatever information and tools are available. People are too lazy or distrusting of science to use the correct tools to make sense of the cosmos, so they turn to conspiracy theories involving aliens. Once you accept a couple of premises as valid, you can put the whole thing together. These theories should collapse under their own weight, excepting the fact that they only exist in the imagination of their supporters, which I suppose is a zero-gravity environment.

It reminds me of something I heard about the x-files. The first couple of seasons of episodes were written without any attempt to tie things together, the writers simply relied on people's tendencies to make sense of a reality, no matter how fractured it was

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 05:09 PM
Science is handy, but it certainly doesn't have a very good claim to make sense of anything.

kungfu cowboy
09-17-2001, 05:10 PM
I agree! And following your logic, christianity is ALSO a deception! Bravo! :)

origenx
09-17-2001, 05:18 PM
Bak Mei - is this your definition of "uncredible" witnesses:

On Wednesday, May 9th, 2001, over twenty military, intelligence, government, corporate and scientific witnesses came forward at the National Press Club in Washington, DC to establish the reality of UFOs or extraterrestrial vehicles, extraterrestrial life forms, and resulting advanced energy and propulsion technologies.
http://www.connectlive.com/events/disclosureproject/
http://www.disclosureproject.org/

And read the quotes in the middle of this site, including MANY US astronauts:
http://www.geocities.com/aliens_ufos_videos/

And BTW, the Biblical "God" (aka "aliens) did NOT create this universe or Earth. That is a misinterpretation of Genesis. Zechariah Stitchin has a good explanation of what the Genesis account was really describing.

You are simply media-washed like 90% of the general public out there. Fetch, roll over, good boy!

kungfu cowboy - good point. Christianity today is NOTHING like it was when it first started. Paul twisted Jesus's teachings a century later, inserting a lot of the misogynistic teachings into it. Jesus's own life and acts are highly questionable (read I think it's "The Bloodline of Christ or the Holy Grail"). In 400 AD, Constantine hijacked the religion as a political power tool and made Jesus part of the Holy Trinity, to disempower the actual flesh-and-bloodline of Jesus (Templar Knights) that still carried on. And throughout its evolution, all "true" Christians who disagreed with its politically powerful leaders were branded heretics and often killed. They were crucified on the cross of truth by the Church. So what you're left with today is largely political propaganda.

[This message was edited by origenx on 09-18-01 at 08:34 AM.]

dwid
09-17-2001, 05:19 PM
I guess I use the phrase "making sense" loosely. The scientific method provides the best means available for coming up with the best guess of why things are the way they are. When a theory is no longer tenable, it is displaced with a theory that is.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

dwid
09-17-2001, 05:23 PM
I love how to conspiracy buffs, everyone who disbelieves the conspiracy is a slave to the popular media. It reminds me of all the nuts at the institute for creation research who claim that atheist scientists control academia and destroy any evidence that god created the world, etc... Yeah, right. Anyone who's ever spent any time in academia knows how much academics love to disprove each others' theories. Such a hoax would be impossible to maintain. Same as hiding aliens among us.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 05:25 PM
Agreed. I was just being an argumentative bugger, really.

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 05:38 PM
Origiex, I believe that objects in the sky can be "unidentified". However, anyone coming out in support of the "REALITY" of spaceships and alien beings MUST have bodies and flyig crafts otherwise it is not a REALITY.

Anarcho, it is funny that this experiment was brought to my attention by my girlfriend's brother who is an engineer our here on Long Island. The information is from him, I'm just passing it along and can not confirm it.

However, my understanding of the principle of relavtivity is that the results would be relative to the experiment, and not a universal constant.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 05:46 PM
Fair enough, Bak Mei. I'll try to find out about it somewhere else. The interpretive side of modern physics is a nightmare, and it's something I'm struggling with for an essay I'm writing at the moment about some metaphysical theories of space-time. It would be a lot easier if scientists/philosophers of science would use less jargon, but I suppose you need a very technical vocabulary to do modern physics.

origenx
09-17-2001, 05:52 PM
"However, my understanding of the principle of relavtivity is that the results would be relative to the experiment, and not a universal constant." - Bak Mei

Actually, I believe the principle simply states that the speed of light IS a constant, a transformation point like water's freezing point. And so the only reason it can't be exceeded is because the speeding matter would change at that point, into non-localized energy or matter (hence, it could "exist" in 2 or more places simultaneously). Think about it, the faster you go, the closer you come to being 2 places at once. So at that point, the dimensions of space and time would cease to exist, and nothing would be confined to a specific place or time.

It is like the theory of Tao. Imagine the Tao as white (invisible) light, and the creation of the universe as the prismatic separation of that white light into the full rainbow spectrum. Likewise, all our dimensions sprang from a non-dimensional zero point. Hence, something came from nothing, and everything still sums up to nothing. When you combine all the rainbow colors back together again, they "cancel" each other out and reform white (invisible) light...

danny from miami
09-17-2001, 06:06 PM
good post

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 06:15 PM
True, Christianity has its bad side and its questionable history, but it is every bit as legit as Buddhism or any other religion.

More so in my eyes. But that's just me.

Anarcho,
Yes, that is what I am saying. However, my words were not meant to insult anyone. If they did,..that's a personal matter.

Everyone has a right to worship who, what, or how they see fit so long as it does not harm anyone else or infringe upon anyone else's freedom of religion. But you also have the right to be wrong. Same as I.

However, if I and other Christians are right and everyone else is wrong, we won't know until its too late.

But by Buddhist views, the worst that I have to fear at the end of a life of un-enlightenment is that I come back as a pig or a bug or some other lowly life form. From the Christian perspective, you have eternally lost your soul. No second chances. Seeing what is at stake, I would rather be on the safe side and live the more strictly regulated lifestyle.

Make of this as you will.

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 06:36 PM
Yea, that **** uncertainty principle. I understand what you are saying, like electrons in which we can calucate perhaps its veklocity but not its location, or vise a versa, so we choose an average.

However, speed is relative. From atop of what used to be the WTC, object move slower. If you lived atop a tall mountain, you'd age slower, it's relative.

As for the speed of light, it is fixed. But, if you could travel at 95% its speed, and then have the location you are moving towards actualy aproach you at its own velocity of 5% the speed of light theorectically it would equal 100%.

I don't know, I'm not a physisist, just like to read and ponder. This experiment was made aware to me this Sat. so I do not know anything for sure.

Regardless, we will not be speeding across the galaxy any time soon.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

origenx
09-17-2001, 06:36 PM
Daedalus - So, basically you choose Christianity because it employs the scariest scare tactics?

That's exactly why they put those in there. Because they work. As long as the people stay ignorant, fear will work to control them. And what does that tell you about a "God" who uses fear as an emotional tool for control?

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great Christians out there with great hearts. And I think every religion has been twisted around a bit - some more than others. But all religions are just different perspectives on the same reality. And it is that higher truth that is the source of all religions, science, etc. that we should ALL continually be seeking. If you cross-train in martial arts, why not cross-train in beliefs? Is there really any ONE style that has it ALL and NOTHING to learn from any other style? A true master would never say that, only one who is insecure and afraid you might find something better and leave him...

[This message was edited by origenx on 09-18-01 at 09:52 AM.]

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 06:56 PM
Daedalus, that's Pascal's wager. Didn't know people were still using that one. :)

Origenx, actually non-localised mass-energy is *required* by the general theory of relativity, so that part of your explanation doesn't make sense.

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 07:04 PM
Bak Mei,
No, the speed of light is not constant. It is slowing down. A decrease of 3% has been documented since the mid 1800's. ( Don't ask me how they could test the speed of light during the mid 1800's.)

When man sinned in the garden of Eden, God proclaimed a curse on all creation (light included). Since that instant things are getting slower, smaller, and dumber (man included).

originx,
No, I did not choose Christianity because of the scare tactics, but it does make sense that people would. I chose to become a Christian because it made the most sense to me. I'm sure most people choose their religion for similar reasons.

As for believing that all religions are different perspectives on the same reality, I cannot accept this. Many religions, although similar are also vastly different. And as I stated before, Jesus said that he was the only way.

As a faith, Christianity is both the easiest and the most difficult.

EASY: John 3:16 " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever should believest in him will not perish, but have everlasting life".

DIFFICULT: "You will be hated for my namesake". - Jesus

dwid
09-17-2001, 07:17 PM
It's reflected in Moore's law - computer technology is increasing at an exponential rate. So all things -cursed by god, cough, cough - are not slowing down, getting dumber, etc... In fact, entropy only works on closed systems. Open systems, i.e. those that can draw resources from somewhere else, tend to develop at an increasing, or exponential rate. Look at human evolution. It took a couple of billion years to get to **** sapiens sapiens, and like ten thousand to get from the earliest civilizations to the modern world. Think of all the developments of the last hundred years... man is getting dumber indeed.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

Bak Mei
09-17-2001, 07:22 PM
That's not true. In fact the surrounding galaxy's are shooting away from us faster than they were in the past suggesting that the Universe will not end in a big crunch, but that galaxy's will be so remote, that the sky will be quite empty some day of other light.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 07:25 PM
This is off topic, but what the Hell, there are some threads on here that look like Hitler youth rallies and the mods don't seem to mind that.

"When man sinned in the garden of Eden, God proclaimed a curse on all creation (light included). Since that instant things are getting slower, smaller, and dumber (man included)."

Here's what I don't understand. God's supposed to be infinitely compassionate, right? But because someone was curious and didn't listen to what He said once, He puts a curse not only on that person, but on every following generation, every animal, and every inanimate object. I may be missing something, but that doesn't sound like compassion to me.
:confused:

origenx
09-17-2001, 07:28 PM
"Jesus said that he was the only way." - Daedalus

Can you tell me his exact words? First in the English translation, then in the ancient Hebrew, and then if he said it himself or if it was attributed to him by Paul or another "disciple" a century later?

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 07:38 PM
Yes, I have heard of this concept (law does not apply).

And yes, technology and understanding do make advances. But the roof is constantly being lowered, so to speak. We have yet to reach the roof. We are not "evolving" beyond it; we just havent got there yet. But our potential is deminishing. The earth's magnetic core is weakening, the speed of light is slowing, atmospheric pressure is decresing. The ozone layer is thinning, disease is on the rise.

There is nothing new under the sun.

In my eyes there is no such thing as human evolution. The universe is only roughly 6000 years old, not billions of years. The universe is not expanding. (yes, I know all about red shift and the doppler effect.)

I'm not saying that technology and knowledge doesn't increase. But as a whole, creation is faltering.

dwid
09-17-2001, 07:55 PM
I didn't realize there was still anyone out there who believed the earth was only thousands of years old. So do you think god purposely designed the earth and surrounding universe to look like it was much older? Do you think the entire fossil record is an elaborate joke on us to test our faith? This discussion is rapidly descending to the depths of absurdity. Even the Catholic Church, one of the most conservative Christian institutions has in effect accepted the reality of evolution. Nobody with an inkling of scientific background has supported the theory of the earth being just 8 thousand or so years old for most of the last century.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

dwid
09-17-2001, 08:03 PM
Just 6000 years old and already faltering...
god must be more of a casio man than a rolex man.
Some master clockmaker.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

origenx
09-17-2001, 08:04 PM
Daedulus - u still actually believe the universe is only 6000 years old??? G-zus krist. No offense, but ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!! (shaking head in disbelief) You know, I got a bridge in Brooklyn...

Shaolindynasty
09-17-2001, 08:06 PM
"Jesus said that he was the only way."

If a MA instructor said this to you what would you think? I think that this said by anybody for any reason is foolish. I guess that's the problem I have with christianity, they don't allow you to think for yourself.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

danny from miami
09-17-2001, 08:07 PM
sin was brought into this world by adam and eve.it was their decision.we all have free will.God didnt make us like robots.they chose what they did.because of them sin was brought into this world.sin cant enter the kingdom of God,so without Christ we will go down with all the sin in this world.because of His love He gave us a way to salvation.Jesus Christ.He gave us a way to salvation BECAUSE of his love.but we all have our own fee will.He is the only way.we cant save ourselves.the things of this earth cant save us

mantis108
09-17-2001, 08:09 PM
I would echo Origenx, we should all Globally Cross Train. :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 08:15 PM
The passage comes from John 14:6.

The story is communicated through John. John is attesting to what Jesus said. "Jesus sayeth unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man commeth to the father but by me."

Translated from the Greek the word "way" means "a path or a way of conduct". Going by this, the passage could be interpreted as that Jesus is referring to himself as the way through which men find their way to God, or that Jesus is saying that if you behave as he has behaved you will find God.

The latter is dismissed as that it does not literally fit in with the context of surrounding passages.

As with many english words, Greek words often have more than one meaning and must be taken in context of what is being said.

danny from miami
09-17-2001, 08:18 PM
tom and jerry on cartoon network!! awesome!

Ryu
09-17-2001, 08:26 PM
What an interesting interesting thread! :D
Great stuff!

Now saying to follow Christ's "PATH" is the way to find God sounds much more "Christ-like" :)
I think Christ was directly opposed to the "this is the only way" that was going on in the sinagauges at that time. He was a rebel.

Bak Mei,
Don't forget that there are many Buddhist sects, and not all believe in coming Buddhas, etc. This is a Mahayana branch I think. :) There is very down to earth, and philosophical Buddhist "beliefs" too.

Take care,
and great posts by everyone. Really enjoyed reading this guys.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura.jpg

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

JWTAYLOR
09-17-2001, 08:33 PM
The only thing I find "interesting" about this thread is all of the people talking about how the Bible was changed, how it isn't anything now like what it used to be.

Ha!

Like you were there. Quit talking out of your a$$. None of us are authorities of what happened 2000+ years ago.


BTW, Read "Fingerprints of the Gods" by Stephen Ambrose. I've studied allot of the Myan, Olmec, Toltec, Aztec, etc... cultures, as well as been to their sites, and I'm buyin what Ambrose is sellin.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 08:34 PM
Yes, I believe that the universe is only several thousands of years old, not billions or millions.

I'm sure that most of you have seen pictures of cut away views of the earth's layers and how they date them; jurassic period, cretacious period, etc. What they don't tell you is that there is nowhere on earth where you will find them all in the order that they are supposed to be in.

Archeologists have found a fossilized whale standing on its tail, which extends up through several layers of earth. Out of this we can either believe that this whale stood there on his tail for several millions of years while earth was deposited around him or we can believe that the earth is not millions of years old and that the layers of the earth are there due to a world wide flood. You choose which makes more sense.

Trees have also been found going through several layers of the earth's crust. No doubt, they grew there for millions of years, some even upside down, while earth was deposited around them.

Measuring red shift through the doppler effect is how scientist come to the conclusion that objects in space are moving away from us.

I could explain it but I'll let you read it.
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-121.htm

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 08:35 PM
Daedalus, I think you missed my post about God/compassion. I'm interested to hear your take on this.

Fubokuen
09-17-2001, 08:37 PM
Jesus said, "I am the TAO, the TE and the JING"

Hopefully, Daedalus isn't a fullblown flatearth moron and he meant that "It makes absolutley NO DIFFERENCE to any of us shortsighted, selfinterested TV Babies HOW FRIGGIN OLD ANYTHING IS, as it's all spoonfed BS anyways"...

Hey, did you hear eggs now have 22% less cholesterol???

All the "Science is MY God" types usually mean that their icemaker Frigidaire cuts down the time it takes to make a cocktail, but geez Daedalus don't speak for Christians anymore and STOP sending Pat Robertson your edutainment budget...

dwid
09-17-2001, 08:55 PM
The institute for creation research (icr) is no more scientific than its older cousin, the inquisition, and has approximately the same goals. They are not affiliated with any accredited institution, and rely completely on the fact that their readers don't read any other more credible scientific sources (legitimate academic journals, for example).

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

Fubokuen
09-17-2001, 09:18 PM
God has all the time in the world... sometimes taking a veritable eternity to design and manifest creation cycles! I say more power to'em! haha

How long was a "day" before there was an Earth?
dang, 6,000yrs isn't even long enough for light from the closest star to get here! I hope the Hosts of Heaven aren't LATE for our Destruction Celebration...

origenx
09-17-2001, 09:48 PM
daedalus - So, are you saying that Jesus told others to follow HIM or the PATH he followed? Because if it was the PATH he followed, than that could be the same path that Buddha, Mohammed, etc etc followed as well and would thus "legitimize" those religions as well (in the judgmental eyes of Christianity at least). As opposed to saying that Christianity is the ONE and ONLY true religion - all others lead straight to H*ll! That's always been one of my big beefs with Christianity.

Remember, Buddha preceded Jesus by like 500 years...

Daedalus
09-17-2001, 09:57 PM
Fubokuen,
You are right, I should not speak for all Christians. I am but one person. Thank you for reminding me.

Anarcho,
God is compassionate. We were given the choice to accept him or not to accept him; to obey him or not to obey him. And now his compassion is something we must earn through faith and obedience to his word.

dwid,
As to the legitimacy of the ICR, they are as reputable as any mainstream scientific organization. Yes, they have an agenda (to proclaim divine creation by God). Mainstream science also has an agenda ( to disprove devine creation by God).

Anarcho
09-17-2001, 10:05 PM
So God's compassionate as long as you do exactly what he says and don't deviate from prescribed behaviour? I don't know, that just doesn't sound like compassion to me. It sounds faintly dictatorial.

prana
09-18-2001, 05:33 AM
Buddhist believe "something" similar to Adam & Eve. It is told that certain beings, ones of which takes the form of the formless, landed on earth, and created attachment to worldly and materialistic objects (Ground element) and hence begins life.

My own little explaination of Adam and Eve, of course, is that it is a "personified" version for logically minded people. Looney-tunes like myself prefer the previous explaination above, but only because of my own experiences.

Also scientists recently found, bacteria entering our atmosphere from outer space, but I am not sure if this is true or not.

Judt more food for thought.

The mind is like a candle flame, blown by the 5 winds of distraction, to the past and future.

origenx
09-18-2001, 02:18 PM
daedalus - If "free will" must be given, then it is not truly free. And if the giver heaps additional independent rewards or reprecussions on top of any natural results of your choices, then nor is it truly unconditional "free will" either.

The exact opposite of "free will" is a forced choice. Whereby you are threatened with a negative artificial consequence should you disobey - like being held at gunpoint. How is this any different than being threatened with H*ll, fire & brimstone? Is that not a forced choice, and the very opposite of "free will?"

Ask yourself this - do you really love God, or just fear H*ll?

Break the Godspell.

Radhnoti
09-18-2001, 04:38 PM
Here's a problem I have. If God is all powerful, meaning he created everything. And God is all knowing, meaning knows everything (including things to happen in the future). How could there EVER have been free will? He created me, he created my enviornment. He knew when he created both me and the environment I'd be exposed to what my reactions to life would be. Since he CREATED everything when he created ME and my SURROUNDINGS he knew every choice I would make in my life and every thought I would have. Let me stress this, he CREATED me KNOWING everything I'd ever do. If you CREATE EVERYTHING and HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FUTURE, why not change tiny things a bit differently and make sure everyone goes to heaven? Why create Lucifer? You KNOW he's going to rebel. Why not take away from him that particular impulse or change the things he'll be exposed to that make him think that way? If you create a being of evil KNOWING what'll happen, doesn't that seem to indicate a duality in YOUR OWN nature? Using the classic philosophical equation: God is all powerful, and God is all good. So why does evil exist? Free will is the common answer. Which can't exist if God is TRULY all powerful. I don't believe that the traditional Christian viewpoint allows a person to have free will.
I've spoke of my concerns with a priest, a rabbi and a few pastors. The only answer they can give me seems to be, "It all hinges on your faith, you MUST have faith. If you had faith, THEN you'd feel God's presence in all things."
The only thing I can think when they say this, "Well, why didn't God create me with a bit more faith...or make sure I'd never be exposed to whatever stripped my faith from me?" An all powerful all knowing God could do that.
So, my contention is that an all powerful all good God (of Christianity) does not exist. Could not exist, because logic denies it.
If anyone sees a hole in my theory PLEASE point it out to me. I'm honestly open to any logical (stress logical) arguement that can refute this.

origenx
09-18-2001, 04:41 PM
Here it is - Modern-day Christianity - The BIG WHOPPER!

Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed by Laurence Gardner
(ISBN: 0760707359)

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0QJ16TSTPP&mscssid=EKQK32R9L38A8HFQM3WK9KUMLLM8C053&isbn=0760707359

Radhnoti - question: If God knew I was going to H*ll when he created me, then why did he create me? And if one can predict "free will," then is it really "free will?

dwid
09-18-2001, 05:12 PM
Free will and an all-knowing, compassionate god cannot co-exist. If god knows who will "choose" his path and who will not, he must have a pretty sick sense of humor to put people through the pretense of a life with the illusion of free will. I have never heard a logical explanation around this paradox, and I'm sure I never will. This will be my last post on the thread, however, as discussions like these are generally fruitless. A zealot will always believe they have won the argument, as their arguments do not rely on logic or evidence.

One last thing, Daedalus, you are wrong about the motives of mainstream science. Yes, ICR has the ulterior motive of proving god created everything, and that is precisely what makes them an illegitimate institution. True science follows the evidence. Any scientific body that is predicated on a particular theory is by its very nature flawed. Its what we call the confirmation bias in the social sciences. If you go looking for a particular answer, then you'll probably find it whether it's there or not.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

Radhnoti
09-18-2001, 06:27 PM
That's my question origenx.
I'm not trying to be "in your face" about this. These are questions I've honestly asked many Christian religious authorities in my area.

origenx
09-18-2001, 06:40 PM
radnohti - I explored Christianity when I was a child and again 15 years later. And came to find out that these same troubling questions still remain unanswered - so I dropped out again. I've already given it 2 fair chances. Nothing changed.

The questions are unanswerable because the answers simply don't exist. The religion is just chock-full of holes and cracks in the facade...

Fubokuen
09-19-2001, 12:25 AM
Whatsa matter "designer sifu"? Did i say something you didn't like? No profanity, no threats, nothing derogatory, just that certain something you didn't like reading? Was it something that rubbed you the wrong way?

If I was extolling the virtues of praying to a wooden carving of a dog, my post would still be here.

Lost_Disciple
09-19-2001, 02:09 AM
Wasn't there an old saying about religion and politics?

Just a little example to the hard line christians out there that's going on in my life and kind of explains where a lot of us are coming from:
My dad's a christian, a catholic (sick of people accusin Catholics of not being christians- the idea's silly). I've been having problems lately with my religious beliefs. Not so sure I believe in Christ and the bible and all that. For a while I tried to overcompensate. I went to as many religious retreats, bible study groups, and youth groups as I could. I'd go through little phases where I tried to get something to make some sense- tried so hard to find that belief and faith. Sorry, but just letting go and letting faith happen didn't work; not for longer than a few days at least.

Fast forward to my current situation. I'm stayin with my folks, they're helping me out. Had a bad turn of events with the job; and they're covering the bills. I'm doing my best to do chores around the house everyday and askin if I can help out. On sundays I usually do yard work. Sundays is also church day. According to my dad's edict, if I don't go to church on sunday, I don't eat sunday night. I can't tell him I'm not a catholic at heart no more, cuz it'd shake his world too much to keep supporting me. So he just thinks i'm a lazy christian.

So here I am, on sundays, starving cuz I don't believe his way. You'd think he'd try to use some sugar to change my mind instead of hydrochloric acid. You'd think he'd follow the words of his own holy books and use love instead of harshness. You'd think maybe he'd have the confidence in his own beliefs to let them stand on their own- being their own reward.

Nope, he resorts to the same old scare tactics all of us criticize. Go to church or don't eat. Believe in Christ or go to h*ll. Most of us have issues that aren't being resolved on the logical/philosophical end. And doing something just out of fear of the consequences is a pretty shallow reason to do anything- let alone your system of beliefs.

So here we are at a standstill. The rest of us with "unclean souls"; and the rest of you with the hardline stance. And I'm sorry, but the argument "there are just some things humans aren't supposed to understand" just doesn't sit very well with me.

The idea of a compassionate god whom one can look to for strength has always kept me away from following the little I know of Taoism or Buddhism. However, I feel if I can find a teacher in either, then they would be willing to explain and help my understanding- instead of just saying "it can't be explained, and that's the way it is".

I'm sorry if this sounds critical. But as you can see, I'm hungry. ;)

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus..

prana
09-19-2001, 02:17 AM
Hmmm I am going to jump into these recent remarks.

Although I will never be a "Christian" myself, but

1. As far as I have known, the Christian religion is one of great love. If there are "scare" tactics, it is because of "followers" having a strong hold on pride.

2. I also think that the definition of "god" or "the creator" is too personified. "He" mightn't have eyes, ears or a mouth, and he may not use a brain. Perhaps you "could" say he gave us all a brain to use, MUCH like your parents gave you the first taste of food.

3. I think in the strictest sense of Christianity, when someone can find in their hearts to forgive and love the hands that hurt them and kill them, then they are truly Christians.

I am using " quotes " to signify that I do not want to make it too static, that you should read between the lines. I am not here to make a political statement.

Daedalus
09-23-2001, 10:27 PM
Sounds like alot of anti-Christian propaganda to me. :)

prana
09-24-2001, 01:33 AM
sigh. Definitely not my intention.

Radhnoti
09-24-2001, 03:54 AM
Daedalus, oddly enough I go to church every Sunday. My intent is to teach my son about Christianity and let him make up his own mind. Also, some of my best friends...including my sifu...are devout Christians. Honestly, this is a paradox that came to my mind, and no one has been able to resolve it. The only "answers" I get when asking is, "You FIRST have to have faith THEN God reveals himself, and THEN you'll know he exists."
:confused:
I can't do that. I can't suspend logical thought long enough to do that. If you see a way around this that the 3 pastors, 1 priest and 1 rabbi I've spoken to couldn't PLEASE let me know. Any argument that makes logical sense I'd be SO happy to hear.
Thanks.

origenx
09-24-2001, 03:38 PM
"Faith" is another name for "the placebo effect" (or vice-versa). Frankly, there are many paths to "God." I've heard stories of "miraculous" synchronicity from Christians, Buddhists, positive-thinkers, generic spiritualists, etc etc alike. "God" does not discriminate between religions - just like math works the same whether you're Wiccan or Protestant.

That said, Taoism really speaks to me. Although everyone may be familiar with the Tao Teh Ching, many are unfamiliar with Lao Tzu's oral transmission, the Hua Hu Ching.
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0QJ16TSTPP&mscssid=JX1QWJ7CT1NJ8MER40V9WU77JESK9CC8&isbn=0944439373
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0QJ16TSTPP&mscssid=JX1QWJ7CT1NJ8MER40V9WU77JESK9CC8&isbn=0937064009
Now, THIS is a banned book worth reading! *****

"There are many partial religions, and then there is the Integral Way.
Partial religions are desperate, clever, human inventions; the Integral Way is a deep expression of the pure, whole, universal mind.
Partial religions rely on the hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds; the Integral Way is founded on the free transmission of the plain, natural, immutable truth.
It is a total reality, not an occult practice." - 78

Enjoy!

Radhnoti
09-24-2001, 04:35 PM
origenx, I've recently become interested in Taoism. I'm reading a book by Daniel Reid, The Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity right now.
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067164811X/qid=1001428246/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/102-2732735-9883313

He breaks things down into a Western point of view, often citing scientific research. Have you heard anything about him, or this book? A lot of what he's said make sense to me, do you consider yourself a "practicing" Taoist? Any pointers (books, stay away from THIS, etc)? Thanks.

Daedalus
09-24-2001, 04:47 PM
prana,
My post was not aimed in response to your post.
I agree with much of what you said.

My take on this thread is that if a person wants to believe that Buddha is coming soon, then thats fine. I think that enlightened people (buddhas)are walking around everywhere. Please feel free to practice whatever religion you want to, and I hope that you are blessed by it.

But, likewise the Christian faith is just as viable and legitimate as any other.

I don't think that it is necessarily the tennents of a religion that most people have problems with. It is the people who claim to be exponents of that religion. For example: most world religions today believe in the preservation of peace. But by what means and by whom that peace is achieved becomes the dividing point.

I have several friends that are Buddhists and Taoists. And they know that I am a Christian. I witness to them the same as I would anyone whom I consider lost. Their responses to me have been nothing but understanding and appreciation. They know that as a Christian it is my nature to act and do what I do. They appreciate my concern for their eternal souls even though they do not share my faith. That is how it should be.

:)

[This message was edited by Daedalus on 09-25-01 at 08:03 AM.]

Nexus
09-24-2001, 06:17 PM
The idea is always changing. Always in motion, but still in perception. You see what you believe today, and it appears solid and ground. A year from now it is different, yet so subtle it moved that you did not notice until now.

Why argue over such things? We argue over nothing, we try to make ourselves believe that our words are better then the words of someone else. Key? Words communicate thoughts, but do not paint them. Words give an outline to something that cannot truly be described.

Even the Tao Te Ching is just a work of words. It is only pointing you in the right direction, and is only a means to certain ends.

Truths, the ones that are solid, you will find inside yourself. These truths may be that God is real, or that all beings are part of a whole, which is God or the Universe. You may discover one day that you and the stars you look at high in the sky are actually the same. Maybe you will see that you are the star, looking down on earth at yourself. A million possibilities, and beliefs, that words can never resolve truth to. Only that which comes from the truth of the self, when you reveal the self, and transcend the ego, can bring you to full understanding.

Keep in mind that Ones personal enlightenment is a very personal and often private matter.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

origenx
09-24-2001, 06:38 PM
Radnohti - I recall that book. I'll have to look at it again and see what I think about it. BTW, I am not really a "practicing" Taoist yet - meaning I have yet to fully integrate my understanding of the Tao into all my actions and everyday life. That's the hard part...but one that I'm working on.

prana - what do you think about this guy who claims to be Buddha Maitreya:
http://www.buddhamaitreya.org/

Nexus
09-24-2001, 06:48 PM
I think you are more buddha like than he is origenx. :)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

origenx
09-25-2001, 06:52 PM
nexus - thanx - and seeing as how far from "buddhaness" I am, this guy must feel incredibly insulted! Youch!

MoQ
10-11-2001, 06:32 PM
"I have no faith because I am logic oriented" is a toad croaking from the safety of a lilypad.

No one knows WHAT they truly believe until Death looks them in the eye like it ALREADY KNOWS.

"I think THIS, I believe THAT", is a game of convenience played from a cushion of complacent boredom.

At least the toad knows not to try and stand.

Design Sifu
10-16-2001, 12:39 AM
I remember coming accross a piece of info about a gilded statue of Guan Yin that had true flowers blossom from the strands of vines upon it... Appariently it's an unpresidented event that the local monks consider as a sign of the birth of the next buddha... or something to that effect...

I'll see if I can dig it up...

Design Sifu
10-16-2001, 12:50 AM
What exactly are you reffering to when you ask me if you've offended me???