its in the results

[punchdrunk]

wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name... i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.

[anerlich]

No arguments here.

[LSWCTN1]

wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name... i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.

i agree!

after thinking about this recently i have come to my own conclusions, you may agree or disagree....

is wing chun just included in the forms and techniques we learn, or can it be anything that applies the same rules and theories? after all - it started somewhere and evolved based on the original principles

also if one person is better at wing chun than another does that make them a better fighter? And if they are not a better fighter does that then mean that the other person is then better, as this is an art for fighting?

just my tu'penneth :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name... i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.

Well, according to the highest ranked people in the WC community, yes, its still WC.
In the end, the only thing that matters is the results, of course one can argue what results matter.

[punchdrunk]

Thanks guys, you've given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You've given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn't just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There's always more to learn if we have the desire.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?


ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS "PURE"...

Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: :cool: :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks guys, you've given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You've given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn't just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There's always more to learn if we have the desire.

In times past when fighting for ones life was more common place, these things would be irreleveant, they kind of took care of themselves.
Nowadays, not so much, so indeed, one must pressure test in various venues.
Having bounced I can tell you, and most who have will agree, that the average "altercation" is hardly a fight, though you can on occasion get tested.
MMA is probably the way to go, as long as one keeps in mind that it is still a sport and not the real thing, nevertheless, you are applying your training VS a another trained fighter, something that you rarely get on the street.
Just keep in mind the issue of intent and mindset.
Pressure testing withing the kwoon has its limitations -
Same system, familiar people, low stress level
But is probably the best way to start.
A combination of all the above is ideal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?


ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS "PURE"...

Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: :cool: :)

Give that man a cigar !

[t_niehoff]

Thanks guys, you've given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You've given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn't just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There's always more to learn if we have the desire.

In terms of martial art (or any sport or athletic activity for that matter), fighting skill is rather "cut and dried."

Any physical skill is essentially your ability to successfully bring about a desired result -- to successfully perform a specific task (with max certainty and min time/effort). In terms of fighting skills, this means successfully perform a certain task under combative (realistic) conditions. And since we are performing this against an opponent, our ability/skill to achieve this will be relative, i.e., will depend on the skill/ability of our opponent. In other words, our level of fighting skill is determined by level of the opponent we can successfully perform against.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In terms of martial art (or any sport or athletic activity for that matter), fighting skill is rather "cut and dried."

Any physical skill is essentially your ability to successfully bring about a desired result -- to successfully perform a specific task (with max certainty and min time/effort). In terms of fighting skills, this means successfully perform a certain task under combative (realistic) conditions. And since we are performing this against an opponent, our ability/skill to achieve this will be relative, i.e., will depend on the skill/ability of our opponent. In other words, our level of fighting skill is determined by level of the opponent we can successfully perform against.

That said and agreed with, one must also take into account and not underestimate the "untrained scrapper" who's unorthodox methods can lead one into very interesting territory.

[t_niehoff]

Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?


ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS "PURE"...

Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: :cool: :)

I, for one.

From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.

I'm all for crosstraining. And I'm all for evolution.

But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is -- your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.

[t_niehoff]

iis wing chun just included in the forms and techniques we learn, or can it be anything that applies the same rules and theories? after all - it started somewhere and evolved based on the original principles

also if one person is better at wing chun than another does that make them a better fighter? And if they are not a better fighter does that then mean that the other person is then better, as this is an art for fighting?

just my tu'penneth :D

My view is what makes something WCK or muay thai or boxing or whatever is that we are using the SPECIFIC "tools", the strategy, tactics, and movements/techniques, of that particular method. Would you say that someone is a good boxer who squares up with an opponent, drops his level,penetrates for a single leg, etc.? No, since these things are not tools in boxing but in wrestling. If he did this, what would it say about his boxing? Nothing. It says nothign since he has not used the tools of boxing.

Skill in boxing or wrestling or WCK is our ability to successfully use our particular art's tools in fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I, for one.

From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.

I'm all for crosstraining. And I'm all for evolution.

But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is -- your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.

That's just it, IF someone calls it anything other than what it is.
IF you cross train WC with MT and BJJ and call it the "real" WC or the "new" WC, I think that's silly, so is taking what you learned from MT and BJJ and adding it to WC and saying it was always there, very silly.
BUT, cross training in those systems and teaching them together while still making it clear that A is from WC, B is from BJJ and C is from MT, is just fine, and the WC parts are still WC, just as the BJJ parts are still BJJ.

[JPinAZ]

I, for one.

From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.

I'm all for crosstraining. And I'm all for evolution.

But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is -- your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.

Can't believe I'm saying this... :eek:
T, couldn't agree with yout more! :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you are training strictly for self defense, it should not matter one way or the other. If you are training for ring fighting, it still should not make a bit of difference. You train what you can do and use really well. A lot of the fighting skills we see and read about take a lot of physical ability. The stronger you are, the better you can be. This is not going to be easy for a lot of people, especially for those that are not physically endowed. It might take years before a person could apply some of this fighting skill. WC is not as simple as that, but one can train and use it in a fairly short time. Japanese Jujitsu can also be trained and used in a fairly short time. You do not have to be physically endowed to make it work either. There are going to be times when you simply get that ass kicked, no matter how hard you fight. It is enevitable if you put yourself in situations where it can happen. If you are interested in cage fighting, you have to look at it all differently. You will want to train in a way that most people tend to fight there. If you don't it might put you at a disadvantage. The people you will meet there will know full well your intentions and will also know that you must have some skills or you would not be there. They will be prepared to kick that ass for you.
Wing Chun has some really great techniques for deflecting a punch or kick. Japanese Jujitsu and BJJ too for that matter, does not put a great deal of work into this area. They teach you how to effect a joint lock or break, but you have to figure out first just how you are going to get hold of it without getting broken up. For at least, WC gave me just those skills when I was training JJJ. It opened a whole new area of skill for me. What I had done was to intergrate skills of one into the other. I already had some grappling technique in my WC, but JJJ just gave me more control in that area. In the line of work I was doing part time this came to use a lot.
My friend that was teaching me JJJ told me that there were no submission holds in JJJ. I have seen them used in a lot of wrestling matches and fights, but what he meant was that they were intended strictly for inflicting injury upon an assailant. This came about one day when I was still quite young. I did a quick move and took a fellow down without his throwing a single punch at me. It was so easy. I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack. In the insuing struggle I got a loose tooth and a broken nose. Had I just palmed him on the back of his hand and hyper extended the wrist the fight would have ended right there. Fighting in the ring has referee's. If you are fighting to defend yourself, except no submissions. Inflict injury and step back and cover yourself.
I think the reason WC and JJJ work so well for me is that the deflection techniques of WC can give you access to the persons arm and wrist very quickly and easily. This then puts you in command of your JJJ techniques immediately and without your getting your face plastered. In some cases I have seen a good JJJ man get beat around really bad for a while until he managed to get an oportunity to apply a technique. If he had been defending against more than one he might have really gotten kicked around.

Chiang

[anerlich]

I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack.

That's what chokes are for. Putting people unconscious without damaging them (much).

[Lee Chiang Po]

Quote:
I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack.

That's what chokes are for. Putting people unconscious without damaging them (much).


I think you are right. I ended up doing something close to that. I did a side choke that cut off blood flow and put him to sleep. Gave me time to exit without further altercation. The second take down was not quite as easy as the first one, costing me a tooth and a broken nose. Both my eyes got black too.
The problem with using chokes sometimes is that while you are doing it his friends might be doing something else. But, they do work pretty well.
The original question I think was, would it still be called Wing Chun. I don't think what I did would be called wing chun after the entry move.

Chiang

[HardWork8]

wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name... i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.
No arguments there as long as you call the "results" MMA and NOT Wing Chun. That is if these results take one's art OUTSIDE the concepts and principles of Wing Chun!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"No arguments there as long as you call the "results" MMA and NOT Wing Chun. That is if these results take one's art OUTSIDE the concepts and principles of Wing Chun." (HardWork)


***YOU still don't get it, do you?! :rolleyes:

Reading this statement carefully, it's hard to not get this message from it: "Wing Chun must be kept pure"...

And why?

Because there are more implications/conclusions that follow the first one:

"If we keep it 'pure'...the day will come when wing chun chi-na and other wing chun-related grappling-type moves will be seen as making the total wing chun spectrum the equal (if not better than) any 'mma' as a total fight system."

AND THIS IS JUST WISHFUL DREAMING....:(

For example, I mix wing chun with catch wrestling, some boxing, and some MT knees and elbows from the clinch.

Yes, it's a mixed martial art. But when people ask me what I do, (ie.- when they inquire about my classes)...I say that I take an mma approach THAT MIXES WING CHUN, CATCH WRESTLING, AND BOXING...and some Muay Thai.

Because that's what my "mma" is made of.

So that people understand what I'm doing....it's not karate, it's not TKD, it's not BJJ, it's not judo, it's not kickboxing, etc....


it's wing chun mixed with catch and boxing.

Morale of the story? Nobody has to define what they do the way you, HardWork, say they should. I'll decide what's wing chun and what's not 'pure' wing chun, not you.

When at a certain range - most of what they'll see me do is "pure" wing chun...oh, but wait, my opponent just clinched, so now it's not wing chun you see me doing, it's something else...oh but wait...I just broke the clinch and separated a bit - and now here's a pak da followed by lop da and then three chain punches to follow (yes, that was "pure" wing chun at that moment, Mr. Spectator)...

and now....etc.

LOL, HardWork.

Because if you really want to understand what fighting is all about - you'll need some luck. :cool:

[punchdrunk]

i agree with Victor, besides who cares what's "pure" wing chun. I'm not here for the name but the results. I think it was WSL who said make your kung fu work for you and don't be its slave.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

You know it's kind of funny to even argue over keeping something pure. According to several verisons of WC being developed it is said to be a conglomeration of several of the "best" Shaolin systems distilled into the most effective essence. Perhaps one could even say Wing Chun was the first MMA, although I doubt that all would agree :p

FWIW; I believe that Wing Chun does morph to the needs of those practicing it. Not all WC will look the same and not everyone will do it the same way. My only problem is with someone telling me that for my WC to be effective it must include this or that, My feeling is that it will depend on the environment and threats I am most likely to face.

If WC is your foundation, your core art, then it is possible to intergrate other arts and approaches into it and make it even more effective, IMHO. However, I am not going to go so far as to say this is necessary to make the art effective, perhaps more effective is the better terminology for a given situation.

[HardWork8]

***YOU still don't get it, do you?! :rolleyes:
I get it alright and that was since the beginning.


Reading this statement carefully, it's hard to not get this message from it: "Wing Chun must be kept pure"...
Pure can mean a lot of things. What I am saying is that this art has principles and concepts that make it distinct and identify it.

So, to add anything to Wing Chun you must adapt it to the art's concepts and principles to maintain the art's essence and flavor which make it recognizable and give it it's distinct character.

Previous masters have been doing this for a long time, so what I am saying is not rocket science!

When you mix this art with a mish mash of martial arts that contradict those concepts and principles then you are taking fundamental aspects out of it and therefore you cannot turn around and say you are "doing" Wing Chun, when actually a better definition would be that you are doing MMA with some Wing Chun in the mish mash.


And why?
That is because it is MMA. What make an art "pure" are its concepts and principles. When you go 'outside' them then it becomes something else, albeit with a Wing Chun flavor, perhaps.


Because there are more implications/conclusions that follow the first one:

"If we keep it 'pure'...the day will come when wing chun chi-na and other wing chun-related grappling-type moves will be seen as making the total wing chun spectrum the equal (if not better than) any 'mma' as a total fight system."

I have got news for you, that day has come and gone..LOL! What you have now is a lot of people learning a "half mash" Wing Chun with new training methods that make this art only a shadow of what it was.

Many realized that there were shortcomings in what they had learnt and turned around and replaced the "half mash" with a "mish mash", instead of looking deeper into the art and trying to find the missing parts and replacing them within the the art's own concepts and principles which give it the distinction that is WING CHUN!


AND THIS IS JUST WISHFUL DREAMING....:(
It is not wishful dreaming it is a FACT(that is, my statement above)!


For example, I mix wing chun with catch wrestling, some boxing, and some MT knees and elbows from the clinch.
Weren't the knee and elbows of Wing Chun enough for you?

There should be at least five different elbow attacks in what you have learnt, which you should have then practiced in an ultra-close (elbow-range only) chi sao and then in contact San sa.


Yes, it's a mixed martial art.
AND THAT IS MY POINT!


But when people ask me what I do, (ie.- when they inquire about my classes)...I say that I take an mma approach THAT MIXES WING CHUN, CATCH WRESTLING, AND BOXING...and some Muay Thai.
And that is the answer you will get from a lot, if not most MMA-ists. They will say that they take the MMA approach by mixing Bjj, Muay Thai and perhaps boxing. Whatever, their core art, they are STILL DOING MMA!!!


Because that's what my "mma" is made of.

Every MMA-ist's MMA is made out of individual parts/MAs! But, it is still MMA!


So that people understand what I'm doing....it's not karate, it's not TKD, it's not BJJ, it's not judo, it's not kickboxing, etc....


it's wing chun mixed with catch and boxing.
Which makes it an MMA! and it will be wrong to call what you do Wing Chun, simply because, it just ain't!


Morale of the story?
When in doubt, then mish mash????:rolleyes:


Nobody has to define what they do the way you, HardWork, say they should. I'll decide what's wing chun and what's not 'pure' wing chun, not you.
I am sorry, but I am not the one who defined Wing Chun through its concepts and principles. It was the people, the (MASTERS!) who developed this art and gave it its distinct characteristics/logic/approach.

So I choose their definition of Wing Chun and not some modern Knucklehead definition, thank you very much!


When at a certain range - most of what they'll see me do is "pure" wing chun...oh, but wait, my opponent just clinched, so now it's not wing chun you see me doing, it's something else...oh but wait...I just broke the clinch and separated a bit - and now here's a pak da followed by lop da and then three chain punches to follow (yes, that was "pure" wing chun at that moment,
What you just described there is a MMA fight scenario and that is because the "essence" of your approach is MMA and not Wing Chun.


Mr. Spectator)...
:confused:


LOL, HardWork.
Yes I know, your post was rather funny, if sad as it does reflect the sad state of kung fu in general, but let's just laugh it off, hey?


Because if you really want to understand what fighting is all about - you'll need some luck. :cool:
Are you addressing me here, or all of the kung fu masters/exponents of the past who played their part in creating and evolving what was to become the style of Wing Chun, during hundreds of years?

I mean the ones who you think didn't fathom that a fight might go to the ground, hence did not address ground fighting (in a land where wrestling arts predate even kung fu)....LOL!

[HardWork8]

i agree with Victor, besides who cares what's "pure" wing chun.
The none MMA-ist may care about the pureness of his art. Otherwise why learn any particular art? Just go and mix up wrestling with kickboxing and you will be fine!


I'm not here for the name but the results.
Then I would strongly suggest that you take up MMA just like our friend Victor, as I believe that you will get short term results quicker that way and of course you will be more likely to come across a good MMA based school than a good kung fu school.


I think it was WSL who said make your kung fu work for you and don't be its slave.
The key word there is kung fu. Just like Wing Chun's distinct principles there are GENERAL principles that dictate what is kung fu (TCMA) and what is not. That is why you don't see traditional kung fu exponents, no matter what style they practice, hopping around during sparring a la TKD or Boxing.

[HardWork8]

Hello,

You know it's kind of funny to even argue over keeping something pure. According to several verisons of WC being developed it is said to be a conglomeration of several of the "best" Shaolin systems distilled into the most effective essence.
Yes, but under DISTINCT concepts and principles that identifies this art as Wing Chun. Once one messes with the these, then he is messing with the essence of this art!

This means that if techniques are introduced, then they have to fit these concepts and principles, so that the art can maitain its essence. Otherwise, you turn it into MMA.



Perhaps one could even say Wing Chun was the first MMA, although I doubt that all would agree :p
There are other Kung fu styles that are also a "mix" of other styles, while maintaining their core essence that identify them as distinct systems. A notable example is the Norther Praying Mantis style of kung fu.


My only problem is with someone telling me that for my WC to be effective it must include this or that,
You are likely to get that advice from people who themselves have not seen the full potential of this art. Just ignore them.;)


My feeling is that it will depend on the environment and threats I am most likely to face.
Exactly. If your environment is going to be the sports arena, then you have to work on your stamina and sports sparring. Perhaps you can cross train some sports wrestling. All fair.



If WC is your foundation, your core art, then it is possible to intergrate other arts and approaches into it and make it even more effective, IMHO.
Again, if this is done in a manner where the style's own distinct concepts or principles are not effected, then fine. Otherwise, one may cross train in other stuff and perhaps even become more effective, but then their art will be MMA and not Wing Chun.

Having said that, if they take the MMA approach, but cross train in other kung fu styles SEPARATELY, then at least what they do can still be classified as Kung Fu.
Many kung fu masters in the past have taken this approach.


However, I am not going to go so far as to say this is necessary to make the art effective, perhaps more effective is the better terminology for a given situation.
Exactly!:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

FWIW; I believe that Wing Chun does morph to the needs of those practicing it. Not all WC will look the same and not everyone will do it the same way. My only problem is with someone telling me that for my WC to be effective it must include this or that, My feeling is that it will depend on the environment and threats I am most likely to face.

Every MA becomes tailored to the individual, though the guiding concepts and principles should remain the same.

You say that yo have a problem with people telling you that your WC should include this or that, YET you say that it depends on the environment and the threats on is most likely to face.
Which means WHAT exactly?
The WC is only applicable in a given situation? nothing else?
Or is it applicable in a broad spectrum on situations?

[Sihing73]

Every MA becomes tailored to the individual, though the guiding concepts and principles should remain the same.

You say that yo have a problem with people telling you that your WC should include this or that, YET you say that it depends on the environment and the threats on is most likely to face.
Which means WHAT exactly?
The WC is only applicable in a given situation? nothing else?
Or is it applicable in a broad spectrum on situations?

Hello,

To clarify what I mean is simply this:

WC is a system which tailors itself to the needs of its practicianers. A prime example is the variety of WC lineages stemming from Yip Mans teachings. At the core it is all WC yet each student adapted it to their own needs and thus the art expressed itself in accordance with their body types and philosophy.

What I meant is that for someone to tell me that my WC is ineffective UNLESS it includes high kicking, for example, is incorrect. Perhaps MY WC does not need to include this aspect of combat. Since I also train Pekiti Tirsia I have found what I need for the life experiences I have had, thus far, to be sufficient. Therefore, I do not accept that I need to go out and learn BJJ for my art to be effective in combat. However, should I suddenly find that I am facing or likely to face hard core grapplers, for example should my town in GA become over-run with renegade BJJ fighters, then I will explore that art more fully as I would be likely to face it.

It would be equally wrong for me to tell YOU that you needed to train Pekiti Tirsia in order to make your WC effective. While this works fine for me, it may not meet your needs or prepare you for the most likely threats you will face.

WC at its core is WC, adding anything else is just tailoring it to your specific needs. However, since everyones needs are different no one can tell anyone what they need unless they are in the same shoes.

Consider this, I may carry a P'kal or a T'Lite, both are knives which can be opened one handed by catching a lip on the edge of a pocket or other such. Someone takes me to the ground but I pluck out my knife and go to work, all I need is the one hand and not a lot of space. In this situation it may have been more prudent for my opponent to study some form of FMA which emphasized blade work. This does not detract from their ground game but depending on the situation the ground may not have been the best choice. Does not make their approach wrong, just not a good fit for that particular situation. Of course I am sure there are counters BJJ or the like can employ but this is just an example of one possible scenario.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC is a system which tailors itself to the needs of its practicianers. A prime example is the variety of WC lineages stemming from Yip Mans teachings. At the core it is all WC yet each student adapted it to their own needs and thus the art expressed itself in accordance with their body types and philosophy.

Agreed.


What I meant is that for someone to tell me that my WC is ineffective UNLESS it includes high kicking, for example, is incorrect. Perhaps MY WC does not need to include this aspect of combat.

Granted, though it woudln't hurt you to include some high kicks, you stiff old SOB !
:D


Since I also train Pekiti Tirsia

Blasphemy !! cross trainer alert !!
:D


WC at its core is WC, adding anything else is just tailoring it to your specific needs. However, since everyones needs are different no one can tell anyone what they need unless they are in the same shoes.

Correct, everyone here would agree with you.
Regardless of how self-limiting that is ;)


I, for one, have never been one to say that ANY given MA is NOT what a person NEEDS it to be.
Of course many people confuse NEED with Want and some see WC, for example, as what they WANT it to be, instead of what it is and what they NEED it to be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It would be equally wrong for me to tell YOU that you needed to train Pekiti Tirsia in order to make your WC effective. While this works fine for me, it may not meet your needs or prepare you for the most likely threats you will face.

That would depend on the context of WHY you would suggest PT to me.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"But when people ask me what I do, (ie.- when they inquire about my classes)...I say that I take an mma approach THAT MIXES WING CHUN, CATCH WRESTLING, AND BOXING...and some Muay Thai."

Followed by this response:

"And that is the answer you will get from a lot, if not most MMA-ists. They will say that they take the MMA approach by mixing Bjj, Muay Thai and perhaps boxing. Whatever, their core art, they are STILL DOING MMA!!!" (HardWork)


***AND HERE IS WHERE I REST MY CASE...That's right, in the final analysis I'm doing mma.

BECAUSE IT'S MORE TOTAL FIGHT EFFECTIVE THAN WING CHUN BY ITSELF.

But you wouldn't know that - since your fight experience (including hard contact sparring against other styles)....

is obviously lacking.

...Assuming it exists at all. :p:rolleyes::eek:

..............................

Oh, and btw...of course I've learned wing chun's elbows and knees. Good stuff. Use it alot. But the MT collar tie with elbows and knees is a great addition to the wing chun elbow and knee arsenal.

But I guess you don't know that either.

Again, another example of how your foolish obsession with keeping one's wing chun "pure" clouds your judgment.

[Sihing73]

Granted, though it woudln't hurt you to include some high kicks, you stiff old SOB !
:D

Blasphemy !! cross trainer alert !!
:D



Hey now,

I have trouble bending over to tie my own shoes so high kicking is definitely out. Besides, this is why I CHEAT :D

As to cross training, better than cross dressing, although I do have nice legs :p

[punchdrunk]

i just think its a mistake to blindly think that your wing chun is the same as it was 50 yrs ago, or that no improvements have been made or were necessary. I know even the Sui nim tao changes through the generations and lineages, so why not adapt other training methods. Anyone not incorporating modern weight training, a heavy bag, progressive sparring etc, etc, is missing some very simple yet great training aids. the principles of wing chun are meant to be guides, not chains binding us to some vision of the past. Look at bui gee... how many principles does it break?? Step outside the paradigm of beginners drills or be doomed to chain punching and chi sao forever!!

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have read this before, about Bil Ji violating WC principal and of it being an emergency system for regaining whatever, but for the life of me I can not seem to grasp exactly where it violates principal.

[couch]

I have read this before, about Bil Ji violating WC principal and of it being an emergency system for regaining whatever, but for the life of me I can not seem to grasp exactly where it violates principal.

SNT and CK are on centre. This means IMO that your centre is locked on your opponent's COM with your opponent's centre is not. If the other way is reversed, then you're in trouble. How do you get back there?

In BJ, most of the time, you place your hands way the heck out in no where land. Why do this when we didn't do any of this in SNT and CK? To show how to get them back to centre. Also, in BJ, you have to use your imagination because you don't always have your centre locked and JUST your arms out in no where land. Sometimes both and sometimes one or the other.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frxuILU9708

I talk briefly about BJ.

Best,
K

[SAAMAG]

This means that if techniques are introduced, then they have to fit these concepts and principles, so that the art can maitain its essence. Otherwise, you turn it into MMA.

MMA is a buzz word, but it's essence has been around for longer than wing chun. It's simply a matter of using what works best for the intended goal, regardless of semantic banter.



There are other Kung fu styles that are also a "mix" of other styles, while maintaining their core essence that identify them as distinct systems. A notable example is the Norther Praying Mantis style of kung fu.

Just out of curiosity, what is the core essence of preying mantis and how do the techniques distinctly follow it? Because my experience with preying mantis showed a lot of techniques that I have seen in other styles as well, kung fu and non kung fu.



You are likely to get that advice from people who themselves have not seen the full potential of this art. Just ignore them.;)

Or perhaps these people see things in realistic ways unbound the constraints of traditionalism...perhaps these people actually engage in consistent combat and thus their perspectives have been forged from actually fighting? It's all a matter of perspective HW8. Yours is no more correct than theirs.



Again, if this is done in a manner where the style's own distinct concepts or principles are not effected, then fine. Otherwise, one may cross train in other stuff and perhaps even become more effective, but then their art will be MMA and not Wing Chun.

It won't necessarily be the coined phrase of MMA either. Again, that's just a buzz word. Someone could take Karate, Jujutsu, and Archery--would this be MMA? Not in the modern day definition. But it would be Bushido.



Having said that, if they take the MMA approach, but cross train in other kung fu styles SEPARATELY, then at least what they do can still be classified as Kung Fu.
Many kung fu masters in the past have taken this approach.

Cross trainers trypically do learn their arts separately, because they typically will seek out the best in each field of study. When you fight however, that's where a person can no longer be partial to a particular art--because most arts are limited in scope and thus the fighter may need to tap into another skillset several times during a fight--sport or real life.

.....

Overall, this seems to be the same ol debate I see. Again, it's all a matter of perspective Hardwork. You have yours, other people have theirs. Again, yours is no more correct than anyone else's on how people train and whether or not what they do is wing chun. I study wing chun, amonst a couple of other things nowadays. My wing chun is no less the wing chun it was years ago. But for various reasons, I enjoy practicing other arts. When I fight, whatever comes out comes out. That Doesn't mean I'm no longer a wing chun guy, just means I've come with a larger skillset.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cross trainers trypically do learn their arts separately, because they typically will seek out the best in each field of study. When you fight however, that's where a person can no longer be partial to a particular art--because most arts are limited in scope and thus the fighter may need to tap into another skillset several times during a fight--sport or real life.

That is how it has always been.
MMA as a "style" is a new development, one I am NOT fond of at all.
MMA as a ruleset and competition venue is fine.

I study wing chun, amonst a couple of other things nowadays. My wing chun is no less the wing chun it was years ago. But for various reasons, I enjoy practicing other arts. When I fight, whatever comes out comes out. That Doesn't mean I'm no longer a wing chun guy, just means I've come with a larger skillset.

He doesn't get that, he never will.
And if he ACTUALLY trained in the style he says he does, he would know that too.
Waste of time bro, waste of time.

[SAAMAG]

That is how it has always been.
MMA as a "style" is a new development, one I am NOT fond of at all.
MMA as a ruleset and competition venue is fine.

That's what I feel as well. I like the practicality aspects, but too many guys in the MMA are just thugs who learn a little of this and that and think they are martial artists. They are athletes for sure--but martial artists? No.

The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It's like high school...you learn math, english, music, geography...etc. Each piece is learnt separately, you do the best you can in each subject, and it all becomes part of a whole.



He doesn't get that, he never will.
And if he ACTUALLY trained in the style he says he does, he would know that too.
Waste of time bro, waste of time.

Well...everyone on here has a "signature" -- something that he or she says or does over and over again. Some like to talk about how great their art is and how everyone else is not qualified to say anything. Some like to talk about how no one here has skill unless they fight, others like to post thousands of youtube videos in an attempt to gain validation for their school, etc, etc, etc.

Then there's those that like training and discussing training methods. To each their own, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's what I feel as well. I like the practicality aspects, but too many guys in the MMA are just thugs who learn a little of this and that and think they are martial artists. They are athletes for sure--but martial artists? No.

The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It's like high school...you learn math, english, music, geography...etc. Each piece is learnt separately, you do the best you can in each subject, and it all becomes part of a whole.



Well...everyone on here has a "signature" -- something that he or she says over and over again. Some like to talk about how great their art is and how everyone else is not qualified to say anything. Some like to talk about how no one here has skill unless they fight, others like to post thousands of youtube videos in an attempt to gain validation for their school, etc, etc, etc.

Then there's those that like training and discussing training methods. To each their own, right?

Agreed on all points.

[punchdrunk]

Lee Chiang Po, i agree with Couch's response. Different parts of bui gee break the center line principle, the straight line principle, the simultaneous defend and attack principle etc. etc. an easy example would be the two handed grab followed by a ginger fist in some peoples form ( i know this one changes in differing lineages.) that doesn't really utilise the center line, thus breaking a principle. I know the form is used for emergency techiques but i also think its meant to broaden our horizon as well.

[anerlich]

In one of the many HW8 posts that were deleted (there is a God, or at least a moderator doing his job) he asked Victor about the Thai clinch, in between the usual insults, threats by proxy and other assorted irrelevance.

The Thai clinch does NOT require you to lean forward. Only an ignorant or biased person who had never seen it could think so. You are controlling the guy's head and jaw with your forearms, controlling the distance with your elbows. Not dissimilar to two fook saos. Your posture remains upright as normal. You are breaking and disrupting HIS structure, not yours, by bending and twisting his head on his neck, and moving him around using footwork, throwing knees and the odd elbow and punch as you go.

There is similar control in the Wc dummy, though it us usually employed as a single neck tie and wrist control. tHough there is nothing other than a lack of imagination to stop you using it as a double neck tie.

IMO there is little or nothing in effective use of the Thai head control that cannot be described or taught using WC terminology and principles. The same is true of many wrestling and groundwork techniques from other arts.

Opinions vary upon whether looking at everything through WC-coloured glasses (or blinkers in the case of some) all the time is the most effective way to understand or learn. And this will vary from individual to individual.

As much as some might wish, and/or have been incorrectly advised by those similarly misinformed, otherwise, many MA's share a large common pool of principles. Some arts express certain aspects of them better than others in specific tachniques.

[HardWork8]

MMA is a buzz word,
MMA is a a training approach that uses a mish mash of(hopefully relevant) martial arts to improve one's personal fighting ability by training one in a variety of techniques, ranges,ETC.


but it's essence has been around for longer than wing chun.
The MMA's essence varies depending on the arts that are mixed and its essence can also be described as a mish mash unless you MIX a few relatively simple/external MAs such as Kickboxing and Wrestling! In such a case you may create distinct "essence" within what you practice.


It's simply a matter of using what works best for the intended goal, regardless of semantic banter.
Well, I presume that is what all MA's try to do but in their own ways and within their own concepts and principles.



Just out of curiosity, what is the core essence of preying mantis and how do the techniques distinctly follow it? Because my experience with preying mantis showed a lot of techniques that I have seen in other styles as well, kung fu and non kung fu.

The name of the style might provide a hint. Or should I say or Wang Lang's kung fu interpretation of the Praying Mantis with a Lohan Kung fu base. Of course the foot work is from the Monkey style. Other influences listed by Wong Kiew Kit, in his book,"The art of Shaolin Kung fu", include Grasping techniques;Felling techniques and Wrestling!

I wonder how many Mantis teachers teach this style with all its aspects and how many of their students cross train(sometimes in the wrong manner) to fill in the gaps?

While we are on the subject of "essence" then it is worth mentioning that kung fu styles generally follow some set principles one of which is the importance of ROOTING! Without rooting your kung fu will have no essence, whatever the style. The same goes for those who ignore the internals even if they happen to be practicing a so called "external" style.



Or perhaps these people see things in realistic ways unbound the constraints of traditionalism...

Then that is good for them. They can call what they do MMA or the ever in fashion Jeet Kune Do. They can even invent new names for what they do such as "American Kung Fu" or "Australian Kung fu" and even add sub headings such as "New and Improved"; "Better Than Before";"Street Effective" and so on, but calling some mish mash Kung Fu is WRONG!


perhaps these people actually engage in consistent combat and thus their perspectives have been forged from actually fighting?
So now you are implyig that the hundreds of kung fu masters who created and evolved these styles, sometimes during turbulent periods of Chinese history, did not engage in consistant combat and therefore are not as qualified as YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN?????

LOL!LOL!LOL!


It's all a matter of perspective HW8. Yours is no more correct than theirs.
I don't know about you but when I see a fighter chain punch while hopping around like a boxer, then I don't see Wing Chun nor any other style of Kung Fu. I see a MMA-ist!


It won't necessarily be the coined phrase of MMA either.
But it is!


Again, that's just a buzz word.
A "buzz word" that is based on a REAL AND VALID phenomenom. I have no problem with MMA as it works in its own right and has its merrit. My problem is with people who mish mash their martial arts and then call what they do kung fu, just because there a kung fu style somewhere within their mish mash!



Someone could take Karate, Jujutsu, and Archery--would this be MMA?
Putting aside the weapons' MA. Yes, karate and Jujutsu together are MMA, however, they are complimentary MMA.

Grappling techniques were also present in traditional karate styles and were "lost" in many(not all) schools.

The Wado ryu style is a relatively new style of Karate and has incorporated Japanese Jujutsu techniques within the principles of karate.


But it would be Bushido.
Not if they are trained like in some Mc dojos nowadays...:p



Cross trainers trypically do learn their arts separately, because they typically will seek out the best in each field of study. When you fight however, that's where a person can no longer be partial to a particular art--because most arts are limited in scope and thus the fighter may need to tap into another skillset several times during a fight--sport or real life.

Kung fu fighters have been "tapping" into other kung fu skill sets for centuries.


Overall, this seems to be the same ol debate I see. Again, it's all a matter of perspective Hardwork. You have yours, other people have theirs.
That is fine and fair, but I did not invent my "perspective" as it is the traditional perspective. It is a school of thought.


Again, yours is no more correct than anyone else's on how people train and whether or not what they do is wing chun.
Well I know 3 traditional kung fu sifus personally, with whom I share the same perspective.


I study wing chun, amonst a couple of other things nowadays. My wing chun is no less the wing chun it was years ago. But for various reasons, I enjoy practicing other arts. When I fight, whatever comes out comes out. That Doesn't mean I'm no longer a wing chun guy, just means I've come with a larger skillset.
The ever present question would be wether you fight in a kung fu context or an MMA context? That is have you assimilated your other skills into your Wing Chun or have you kept them separate and "pick and choose" during the fight. If your case is the second then you are more of an MMA-ist than kung fu-ist. But then if it works for you in a fight then fair enough!

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
threats by proxy and other assorted irrelevance.

I don't recall threatening Victor or anyone else here for that matter. If Victor thinks that I have threatened him please tell me how.


To clarify, HW8 suggested in one of the deleted posts that there were a couple of "masters" in London that could send Victor to the nearest hospital.

I guess saying some unnamed person he claims to know could beat Victor up in a challenge match that neither would be remotely interested in wasn't really a threat. Just a really stupid thing to say. I retract the statement and apologise unreservedly :p

I imagine such an encounter would go something like ths:

Victor is visiting London. He enters a kung fu school not far from Picadilly Circus. The master comes over.

Victor: Hi. Can you direct me to the nearest hospital?

Master: Yes. Is something wrong?

Victor: Yeah, this funny-looking, goofy kid kept getting in my face while I was on my way here. Kept walking backwards in front of me, yelling in my face about how crosstraining is evil, only his master knows the pure Kung Fu, really blathering on, frothing at the mouth almost. I wasn't really listening and trying to ignore him, but I turned to climb the stairs up here. He wasn't watching where he was going, walking backwards and all, and he tripped and split his head open. 'Hardwork, or Headd0rk ... something', He called himself. I'gave him a towel I had with me, but I think he needs stitches.

The master's shoulders slump. He shakes his head and looks at the floor.

Master: [Sighs] I know him. He needs a lot more than stitches. It's about the third time this month. The hospital's up the street and around the corner. I'll take you ... [sighs again] .. and the kid.

Victor: Great. I'm Victor, from New York.

Master: [Looks happy now] Not the Wing Chun / Catch Wrestling guy? Hey, maybe you can show me some of your stuff, after we get the kid patched up and call his case worker. I'm always interested in a different approach to martial arts.

Victor: Fantastic. What are you going to do about the kid?

Master: [Suddenly depressed again] I wish I knew.

[anerlich]

YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN?????


Welcome to the Glorified Kickboxer and MMA Mishmashers' club. Mr Punch and a few other guys are here as well. Sihing73 only cross trains with Pekiti Tirsia so he cannot be regarded as a pure mishmasher as yet, and remains but a probationary member.

Remember, DON'T CALL IT WING CHUN!!!!

[SAAMAG]

MMA is a a training approach that uses a mish mash of(hopefully relevant) martial arts to improve one's personal fighting ability by training one in a variety of techniques, ranges,ETC.


The MMA's essence varies depending on the arts that are mixed and its essence can also be described as a mish mash unless you MIX a few relatively simple/external MAs such as Kickboxing and Wrestling! In such a case you may create distinct "essence" within what you practice.


Well, I presume that is what all MA's try to do but in their own ways and within their own concepts and principles.




The name of the style might provide a hint. Or should I say or Wang Lang's kung fu interpretation of the Praying Mantis with a Lohan Kung fu base. Of course the foot work is from the Monkey style. Other influences listed by Wong Kiew Kit, in his book,"The art of Shaolin Kung fu", include Grasping techniques;Felling techniques and Wrestling!

I wonder how many Mantis teachers teach this style with all its aspects and how many of their students cross train(sometimes in the wrong manner) to fill in the gaps?

While we are on the subject of "essence" then it is worth mentioning that kung fu styles generally follow some set principles one of which is the importance of ROOTING! Without rooting your kung fu will have no essence, whatever the style. The same goes for those who ignore the internals even if they happen to be practicing a so called "external" style.




Then that is good for them. They can call what they do MMA or the ever in fashion Jeet Kune Do. They can even invent new names for what they do such as "American Kung Fu" or "Australian Kung fu" and even add sub headings such as "New and Improved"; "Better Than Before";"Street Effective" and so on, but calling some mish mash Kung Fu is WRONG!


So now you are implyig that the hundreds of kung fu masters who created and evolved these styles, sometimes during turbulent periods of Chinese history, did not engage in consistant combat and therefore are not as qualified as YOU, ANERLICH, ULTIMATE WING CHUN AND GRAND MASTER SAJURO_RONIN?????

LOL!LOL!LOL!


I don't know about you but when I see a fighter chain punch while hopping around like a boxer, then I don't see Wing Chun nor any other style of Kung Fu. I see a MMA-ist!


But it is!


A "buzz word" that is based on a REAL AND VALID phenomenom. I have no problem with MMA as it works in its own right and has its merrit. My problem is with people who mish mash their martial arts and then call what they do kung fu, just because there a kung fu style somewhere within their mish mash!



Putting aside the weapons' MA. Yes, karate and Jujutsu together are MMA, however, they are complimentary MMA.

Grappling techniques were also present in traditional karate styles and were "lost" in many(not all) schools.

The Wado ryu style is a relatively new style of Karate and has incorporated Japanese Jujutsu techniques within the principles of karate.


Not if they are trained like in some Mc dojos nowadays...:p




Kung fu fighters have been "tapping" into other kung fu skill sets for centuries.


That is fine and fair, but I did not invent my "perspective" as it is the traditional perspective. It is a school of thought.


Well I know 3 traditional kung fu sifus personally, with whom I share the same perspective.


The ever present question would be wether you fight in a kung fu context or an MMA context? That is have you assimilated your other skills into your Wing Chun or have you kept them separate and "pick and choose" during the fight. If your case is the second then you are more of an MMA-ist than kung fu-ist. But then if it works for you in a fight then fair enough!

I appreciate the lack of nonsense this time around in your response! Fair enough viewpoint as well. Take care.

[Toby]

There is similar control in the Wc dummy, though it us usually employed as a single neck tie and wrist control. tHough there is nothing other than a lack of imagination to stop you using it as a double neck tie.Good point. We combine that move with a knee when training the dummy form in the air. And I've trained applications with single and double neck ties with knees straight from that dummy move too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lee Chiang Po, i agree with Couch's response. Different parts of bui gee break the center line principle, the straight line principle, the simultaneous defend and attack principle etc. etc. an easy example would be the two handed grab followed by a ginger fist in some peoples form ( i know this one changes in differing lineages.) that doesn't really utilise the center line, thus breaking a principle. I know the form is used for emergency techiques but i also think its meant to broaden our horizon as well.

I don't think it violates or breaks the principles, it kind of puts a 'twist" on them, more along the lines of teaching that the centerline can be his, our or both, know what I mean?

[Ultimatewingchun]

HILARIOUS...and so likely to occur if indeed I ever visit London. :D :p :rolleyes:




To clarify, HW8 suggested in one of the deleted posts that there were a couple of "masters" in London that could send Victor to the nearest hospital.

I guess saying some unnamed person he claims to know could beat Victor up in a challenge match that neither would be remotely interested in wasn't really a threat. Just a really stupid thing to say. I retract the statement and apologise unreservedly :p

I imagine such an encounter would go something like ths:

Victor is visiting London. He enters a kung fu school not far from Picadilly Circus. The master comes over.

Victor: Hi. Can you direct me to the nearest hospital?

Master: Yes. Is something wrong?

Victor: Yeah, this funny-looking, goofy kid kept getting in my face while I was on my way here. Kept walking backwards in front of me, yelling in my face about how crosstraining is evil, only his master knows the pure Kung Fu, really blathering on, frothing at the mouth almost. I wasn't really listening and trying to ignore him, but I turned to climb the stairs up here. He wasn't watching where he was going, walking backwards and all, and he tripped and split his head open. 'Hardwork, or Headd0rk ... something', He called himself. I'gave him a towel I had with me, but I think he needs stitches.

The master's shoulders slump. He shakes his head and looks at the floor.

Master: [Sighs] I know him. He needs a lot more than stitches. It's about the third time this month. The hospital's up the street and around the corner. I'll take you ... [sighs again] .. and the kid.

Victor: Great. I'm Victor, from New York.

Master: [Looks happy now] Not the Wing Chun / Catch Wrestling guy? Hey, maybe you can show me some of your stuff, after we get the kid patched up and call his case worker. I'm always interested in a different approach to martial arts.

Victor: Fantastic. What are you going to do about the kid?

Master: [Suddenly depressed again] I wish I knew.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, I just thought of something, anerlich, sanjuro, Van, Lee, Toby...

Why don't we just hijack the thread?! :D

And talk about some real crosstraining, grappling, mma, chi-na, wooden dummy and other things that may play a role in bringing wing chun into the 21 century! :cool:

For example, Van wrote this:

"The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It's like high school...you learn math, english, music, geography...etc. Each piece is learnt separately, you do the best you can in each subject, and it all becomes part of a whole."


***VERY IMPRESSED with guys like Antonio Nogueria (Minotauro), Randy Couture, Chuck Liddell, Sak, BJ Penn, St. Pierre, and a whole bunch of others for doing this very thing.

They all started with a "core" art - and then learned another art(s) and made the total package fit together - even though their "strength" stll remained their core art, ie.- Nog/BJJ....Couture/Greco...Sak/catch...

until finally - they became so good in their "second" art that you pretty much couldn't even say anymore that they were a particular type of fighter or not (ie.- primarily a striker, or primarily a grappler).

The most blatant example is, imo, Fedor, whose "first/primary" art, sambo, combines real boxing/kickboxing skills with judo and wrestling right from the get-go.

How do you see wing chun being able to make such a (hopefully) seamless mma marriage as time goes on?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, I just thought of something, anerlich, sanjuro, Van,

Why don't we just hijack the thread?! :D

And talk about some real crosstraining, grappling, mma, chi-na, wooden dummy and other things that may play a role in bringing wing chun into the 21 century! :cool:

For example, Van wrote this:

"The most successful MMA guys (and there are exceptions to be sure) are the ones that have trained a core art, and then took that same mindset to another art, etc. It's like high school...you learn math, english, music, geography...etc. Each piece is learnt

Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And "round it off/finish it" with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it6 is a specialized form of H2H and the one that used it best, like Alan's guys since he was mentioned earlier, are those the use its strengths and make up for its weaknesses.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good point. I've grown to like what Alan and his guys are doing.

Btw, Sanjuro...you may have responded before I added a whole paragraph-or-two...to my last post.

Read it again, perhaps there's more you'd like to add or contrast to the points made.

[sihing]

The problem with Victor's propotition is that all those guys he mentioned are Professional athlete's, with natural gifts. What that means is that these guys are made to be doing what they are doing, mentally, emotionally, physically, and are supported by a bunch of trainers and specialist to bring forth the optimum results in their training. Also is the fact that these guys spend all day training, researching, communing with the best of the best without the stress of a job, something that is impossible for the everyday person to do for the most part, with job, family as well as other personal obligations.

I whole heartedly agree that to be the best fighter you can be you need to cross train in other arts to be the most effective fighter. If your a stand up fighter, you will need to train in wrestling and ground fighting arts to strengthen your weakness, visa versa is your specializiation is in ground fighting. The thing is not all of us want to be fighters, nor do we have a choice (I for one don't, I am not a fighter, I don't have the mentality nor intention/killer instinct to fight on a regular basis, IMO there are much better ways to spend one's time). For me WC serves my needs self defence wise. I am not stupid enough think that I am a complete fighter because I have training in WC, that is not my purpose in training it. I train in it mostly because I enjoy the process, plus it gives me the ability to defend myself and others when need be.

I think it's hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn't what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone's needs and wants.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point. I've grown to like what Alan and his guys are doing.

Btw, Sanjuro...you may have responded before I added a whole paragraph-or-two...to my last post.

Read it again, perhaps there's more you'd like to add or contrast to the points made.

I agree with what you added, though you can always see a fighters core, no matter what he adds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem with Victor's propotition is that all those guys he mentioned are Professional athlete's, with natural gifts. What that means is that these guys are made to be doing what they are doing, mentally, emotionally, physically, and are supported by a bunch of trainers and specialist to bring forth the optimum results in their training. Also is the fact that these guys spend all day training, researching, communing with the best of the best without the stress of a job, something that is impossible for the everyday person to do for the most part, with job, family as well as other personal obligations.

Quite, that is why one must do what we can WHEN we can do it.


I whole heartedly agree that to be the best fighter you can be you need to cross train in other arts to be the most effective fighter. If your a stand up fighter, you will need to train in wrestling and ground fighting arts to strengthen your weakness, visa versa is your specializiation is in ground fighting.

I don;t think anyone disagrees anymore, not anyone sane anyways.


The thing is not all of us want to be fighters, nor do we have a choice (I for one don't, I am not a fighter, I don't have the mentality nor intention/killer instinct to fight on a regular basis, IMO there are much better ways to spend one's time). For me WC serves my needs self defence wise. I am not stupid enough think that I am a complete fighter because I have training in WC, that is not my purpose in training it. I train in it mostly because I enjoy the process, plus it gives me the ability to defend myself and others when need be.
I think that IF you take up a MA, you MUST have a fighter's mentality even if you are no longer a fighter or even never want to be.


I think it's hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn't what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone's needs and wants.

Following the MMA route is not somethign advice anyone to do, following a cross training route, yes.
There is a difference.
If you get nothing else out of it, which I doubt, you at least get to "know your enemy".

[SAAMAG]

Victor,

To me, Wing chun's strenths are standup in-fighting; close combat if you will. So it only exists for a moment in time with most fights, depending on how well one is able to control what game is being played.

I use wing chun whenever the moment is right and it works well for me. As soon as I'm in bridging range the techniques come out naturally--but typically I'll move directly into clinching or exteme close range--usually to use elbows or go to a takedown of some sort--OR we will separate---or I will use the wing chun maxim and maintain my close quarters. So many things that can change, so many variables.

I don't think that wing chun exponents need to do anything other than...train like a fighter? I.E. conditioning and sparring more often -- if that is the wing chun person's goal.

[sihing]

Quite, that is why one must do what we can WHEN we can do it.



I don;t think anyone disagrees anymore, not anyone sane anyways.


I think that IF you take up a MA, you MUST have a fighter's mentality even if you are no longer a fighter or even never want to be.



Following the MMA route is not somethign advice anyone to do, following a cross training route, yes.
There is a difference.
If you get nothing else out of it, which I doubt, you at least get to "know your enemy".

Yes, if you are training with a wide variety of specialists, you will be more familiar with thy enemies, much more so than someone that doesn't, agreed:)

Crosstraining is of course a good thing, if your needs require that you have a more complete package as a "Fighter" per say. If your goals are different, or you are not interested in fighting (fighting= skills comparison with another person with fight training behind them), then the necessity to "cross train" is less IMO. I do believe it is vital to experience and use your training against a variety of specialist like wrestlers, BJJ, MT, Boxers, Kickers etc... to be able to utilize effectively what you are training in. This is different than being told you are only effective if you cross train, to which I don't agree. I read some of Sihing73's posts, and I basically agree with that type of thinking.

To each their own though, and I would never take away the opportunity for someone to do what they feel they need to do to be effective as a fighter or Martial Artist. MA are so individualized in the end, that it is hard to have concrete answers to some of the issues that arise on this forum. We all do what we feel we have to do based on our own needs and wants.



James

[anerlich]

I think it's hippocritcal to think that someone of average ability and time commitment should follow the MMA route, there is too much going on, too much to be learned, with not enough time to learn it all correctly. I have a student who trained in a MMA school here, he found the training was very hard with injuries arising on a steady basis. He stopped training there for that fact, as it wasn't what he needed nor was he looking for that type of training. If you are, fine, but not everyone is, that why it is good that there are a variety of arts out there, as one of them will surely fulfil someone's needs and wants.

While I think, James, that your post was pretty much bang on, I don't think MMA training has to be like this.

The MMA class I go to has women, a guy of 55 years and myself at 53. The skills are also touched on in the kids' classes. There are a couple or three of guys (out of about 30 regulars) who have fought professional MMA in the class. My instructor has fought professional Shooto, kickboxing, and BJJ, and also trained and been the cornerman for Australian UFC fighters.

We all do the same stuff, which is self-defense and skill oriented. I've seen few injuries and no serious ones. The pro fighters do extra conditioning and sparring sessions. Just about everyone wrestles hard, but full power striking is reserved for the hardcore and even they don't do it every session.

Effective MMA techniques do NOT necessarily require an elite level of fitness. I agree that the culture of some MMA gyms and MMA events is all thuggery and testosterone - but there are those which train the discipline but keep a more mature and respectful culture, like that of some TMA schools - not that TMA is exactly perfect overall in that regard either. Per Bowling for Columbine - "lotta whacko's out there" on both sides of the TMA/MMA fence.

Most of the best instructors I have been privileged to study with can tailor their instruction for the spectrum from the pro athlete to the once-a-week family person who wants an interesting way to keep fit, and to kids.

Pretty much the same with any MA - some people want to push the outside of the emvelope, others just to explore what they can in the time they have without having to front up to work with black eyes and injuries.

Despite accusations to the contrary, I don't practice MMA - I do Wing Chun and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I really only go to MMA because it's on before the advanced BJJ class, I go there straight from work, and it beats sitting around watching for an hour.

As regards Victor's list of role models, yes these are full time professionals. But everyone needs role models ot aspire to, just like many of us did, with Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and our own instructors and WC ancestors.

[Edmund]

How do you see wing chun being able to make such a (hopefully) seamless mma marriage as time goes on?

WC is a stand up style. It is complimented by a ground fighting style such as Brazilian ju jitsu.

However if someone is very strong in the striking department, a style that concentrates on throws/takedowns and defending them can help them dictate the fight and keep the other person playing to their strength. e.g. Wrestling

[monji112000]

Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And "round it off/finish it" with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it6 is a specialized form of H2H and the one that used it best, like Alan's guys since he was mentioned earlier, are those the use its strengths and make up for its weaknesses.

I often wonder if its possible in todays world, of wife, kids, job to cross train more than (MAYBE IF YOUR LUCKY) two martial arts. Honestly I only have half of a job and just got done with school.. I don't know how people with all three even find time for one martial art. I know people that do BJJ, Sanda, and kali... to me you can only dabble in them... but to play devils advocate against myself people compete and win.
I'm trying to figure out how I can continue doing BJJ and WC with a full time job...

I wish I had the idea to do this stuff when I started college. (7 years ago.. when I did basically nothing all day everyday with no job).

outside of people who own gyms ... do normal people have time to master two arts? I often go back and forth on that subject. I personally don't know.

just some food for thought when thinking about crosstraining.

[monji112000]

WC is a stand up style. It is complimented by a ground fighting style such as Brazilian ju jitsu.

However if someone is very strong in the striking department, a style that concentrates on throws/takedowns and defending them can help them dictate the fight and keep the other person playing to their strength. e.g. Wrestling

I don't think really WC is a great compliment to BJJ. JMO I'm sure I'll get some crap for this.. being that I'm a hypocrite..

wrestling or MT to me would prove better. Maybe if you only focused on positioning in BJJ and escapes..

MT from simply a training method and clinching perspective has so much to offer a WC fighter. Granted you are going to do allot of things different, but just doing your game with their training methods.. I think allot of people would be surprised at finding what works and what doesn't.

[anerlich]

Are you saying:

1. BJJ isn't the best choice as a second art for a WC guy

or

2. WC isn't the best choice as a second art for a BJJ guy?

I don't necessarily disagree, with option 2 I'm leaning toward the same opinion, but I think as a primarily standup fighter whatever my standup art I'd want my second art to be oriented to groundwork.

John Wayne Parr, multiple K1 veteran and arguably the best MT guy ever from Australia, lost very quickly in his MMA bout against Tony Bonello when the fight went to the ground. Bonello's cred on the ground is open to question - he's fought few really good opponents and was made to look helpless by Ninja Rua in a recent MMA bout.

Muay Thai is great, but it ain't necessarily the total solution either.

[anerlich]

I would say, however, that BJJ is an essential art for the Glorified Kickboxer, a category of Outer Darkness into which many of us have been recently cast. :p

[Edmund]

I don't think really WC is a great compliment to BJJ. JMO I'm sure I'll get some crap for this.. being that I'm a hypocrite..


Correct. You're a hypocrite. WTF? You do both...


wrestling or MT to me would prove better. Maybe if you only focused on positioning in BJJ and escapes..

I seriously don't think you understand my logic when I said it compliments WC.
WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it's not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.




MT from simply a training method and clinching perspective has so much to offer a WC fighter. Granted you are going to do allot of things different, but just doing your game with their training methods.. I think allot of people would be surprised at finding what works and what doesn't.

Now it's time for me to be the hypocrite (I've done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you're still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It's just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.

[Phil Redmond]

.....WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it's not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.
Now it's time for me to be the hypocrite (I've done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you're still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It's just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.

I say Oorah

[sanjuro_ronin]

I often wonder if its possible in todays world, of wife, kids, job to cross train more than (MAYBE IF YOUR LUCKY) two martial arts. Honestly I only have half of a job and just got done with school.. I don't know how people with all three even find time for one martial art. I know people that do BJJ, Sanda, and kali... to me you can only dabble in them... but to play devils advocate against myself people compete and win.
I'm trying to figure out how I can continue doing BJJ and WC with a full time job...

I wish I had the idea to do this stuff when I started college. (7 years ago.. when I did basically nothing all day everyday with no job).

outside of people who own gyms ... do normal people have time to master two arts? I often go back and forth on that subject. I personally don't know.

just some food for thought when thinking about crosstraining.

I feel for you bro, that's why I did it when I was young, single and full of chi :D
Now that I can't, I can still reap the benefits.
That's why I tell youngins:
Get your core system, stick with it tell you get proficient in it, then branch out and learn all you can, expose to all you can anf FIGHT all you can, do it WHILE and WHEN you can.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would say, however, that BJJ is an essential art for the Glorified Kickboxer, a category of Outer Darkness into which many of us have been recently cast. :p

True, my 2 years in it were eye openers and it really "finished" my judo nicely.
And while WC and MT are not the good together, that CAN be made to b, they are, after all, different solutions to different problems.
WC and BJJ go well together, escpecially for the GnP part.

[Ultimatewingchun]

“Actually, I have always preached that:
One core specific art (choose your poison)
And ‘round it off/finish it’ with what you need, INCLUDING WEAPONS.
WC is no different, it is not a complete system, it is a specialized form of H2H…” (sanjuro)
……………………………………….

“Effective MMA techniques do NOT necessarily require an elite level of fitness. I agree that the culture of some MMA gyms and MMA events is all thugery and testosterone - but there are those which train the discipline but keep a more mature and respectful culture, like that of some TMA schools…Most of the best instructors I have been privileged to study with can tailor their instruction for the spectrum from the pro athlete to the once-a-week family person who wants an interesting way to keep fit, and to kids.” (anerlich)


***THESE two quotes are spot on, imo.


You don't have to be an ace athlete or a pro fighter - you just need some good instruction/training....and/or....take the bull by the horns yourself and design your own course and training regimen...

if your goal is to take a mixed martial art approach....AFTER you've learned your core art.

Not learning a core art first, I believe, (like sanjuro)...is a mistake.

[sanjuro_ronin]

two quotes are spot on, imo.


You don't have to be an ace athlete or a pro fighter - you just need some good instruction/training....and/or....take the bull by the horns yourself and design your own course and training regimen...

if your goal is to take a mixed martial art approach....AFTER you've learned your core art.

Not learning a core art first, I believe, (like sanjuro)...is a mistake.

If you have enough experience and some common sense, designing your won training is the way to go and most qualified teachers can help you quite a bit.

A core system gives you something that is truly valuable when you are exposed to other systems, a point of reference, even more so if there is some inter-relation:
ie: Kyokushin to Muay Thai, Judo to BJJ
Or even more distant:
WC to Ethiopian Sumo and Turkish oil wrestling to full contact golf.
:D

[monji112000]

Are you saying:

1. BJJ isn't the best choice as a second art for a WC guy

or

2. WC isn't the best choice as a second art for a BJJ guy?

I don't necessarily disagree, with option 2 I'm leaning toward the same opinion, but I think as a primarily standup fighter whatever my standup art I'd want my second art to be oriented to groundwork.

John Wayne Parr, multiple K1 veteran and arguably the best MT guy ever from Australia, lost very quickly in his MMA bout against Tony Bonello when the fight went to the ground. Bonello's cred on the ground is open to question - he's fought few really good opponents and was made to look helpless by Ninja Rua in a recent MMA bout.

Muay Thai is great, but it ain't necessarily the total solution either.

WC and BJJ are both in their own worlds, very complicated. They both take allot of time to master and both "live" in two different worlds. If we are talking about practicality of training (IE time, effort ect..) Its going to take much more effort to train in both arts.


Correct. You're a hypocrite. WTF? You do both...



I seriously don't think you understand my logic when I said it compliments WC.
WC, the stand-up style, needs a groundfighting style to cover the area where it's not strong. Logic is: On the feet, you use your WC. On the ground, BJJ.




Now it's time for me to be the hypocrite (I've done a lot of MT). But if you already study WC and you take up MT, you're still going to have very little groundfighting training.

I do agree that MT has many things to offer a WC fighter though. It's just a matter of finding what specifics fit with your WC.

I said wrestling was a better choice for a few reasons... one explosiveness... positioning dominance, and clinching. You can have all of those in BJJ but its not the main focus (but it can be).

Its all about what you want to train for? a SD/street fight or a MMA fight? if your doing MMA then if you don't do some type of submission based ground fighting system your really putting yourself at a disadvantage. If its SD/street fighting I would say that the core wrestling (position, clinching ect..) are most important. You just want to get back up and get out of whatever position you may be in. basic escapes from BJJ, and sweeps would also be good to train. But you don't have to devote as much to ground fighting as standup. maybe 70/30. What you devote your time doing should be limited to the above mentioned areas. IE basically more or less wrestling.

I am convinced that if you are doing any striking art, training and learning training methods of MT will help you allot. You don't even need to adopt the style... just training with them can open your eyes to things.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I am convinced that if you are doing any striking art, training and learning training methods of MT will help you alot. You don't even need to adopt the style... just training with them can open your eyes to things." (monji)


***I AGREE... MT's training methods, (ie.- lots of pad and bag work, lots of sparring)...it's devastating way of throwing the always dangerous rear roundhouse kick, it's excellent use of collar ties, knees and elbows in the clinch, it's closed stance...

I've adopted much of the above and worked it into the TWC framework rather seamlessly, in fact.

I've come to prefer a more closed stance than the "about-an-inch-or-so-longer-than-shoulder-width-on-each-side that TWC uses - and with a foot slightly ahead of the other....and the use of elbows and knees is very similar to the TWC way - but with a heavier emphasis on the collar tie set up...and TWC always used a roundhouse kick - but I love the MT way of basically throwing it as if you have no knee joint - as if your leg is a one-piece limb - like a baseball bat that you're swinging at the guy's thigh, groin, or mid section (much more power than the TWC, Karate, or TKD way of throwing it)...

MT is great stuff to adopt, adapt, and fit into your pre-existent game.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but I love the MT way of basically throwing it as if you have no knee joint (as if your leg is a baseball bat that you're swinging at the guy's thigh, groin, or mid section (much more power than the TWC, Karate, or TKD way of throwing it...
Funny you should mention that, the MT rounds kick, while great for what it was designed to do, is not as good as the karate round kick in what IT was designed to do.
The MT round kick is a "long range" kick, typically at its best from just outside punching distance, whereas the correct distance for the karate round kick is from punching distance where, you will notice, the MT round is not so good.
For what its worth I do both, but recently decided to train the in your face kick more than the MT one, or course by Karate I mean kyokushin.

[monji112000]

Funny you should mention that, the MT rounds kick, while great for what it was designed to do, is not as good as the karate round kick in what IT was designed to do.
The MT round kick is a "long range" kick, typically at its best from just outside punching distance, whereas the correct distance for the karate round kick is from punching distance where, you will notice, the MT round is not so good.
For what its worth I do both, but recently decided to train the in your face kick more than the MT one, or course by Karate I mean kyokushin.

are you talking about snapping the kick? or just bending the knee?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Definitely on the same page there, as well, sanjuro... :cool:

I use the "knee joint way" of throwing the roundhouse at close ranges as well - as it's taught in TWC, karate, etc.

But from a slightly longer distance, the MT way can be devastating. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

are you talking about snapping the kick? or just bending the knee?

Pagan !!!
LOL !
Both ;)
Typically, a kyokushin round kick is at its best when its a "combination" of the MT and the typical karate round kick.
Think being off to someones 45, off their left shoulder, your right hand on their left upper arm, your left hand on their left shoulder or left side of neck/collar, now thing delivering a rear left round kick ( or even a front left round kick), at that distance you woudl need a round kick with "more" snap and bend and "less" hip.
Notice I didn't say NO HIP.

[bakxierboxer]

Pagan !!!......

Think being off to someones 45, off their left shoulder, your right hand on their left upper arm, your left hand on their left shoulder or left side of neck/collar, now thing delivering a rear left round kick ( or even a front left round kick), at that distance you woudl need a round kick with "more" snap and bend and "less" hip.
Notice I didn't say NO HIP.

Your position description is "mystifying" me.... maybe it's just my day to be "mystified"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your position description is "mystifying" me.... maybe it's just my day to be "mystified"?

Hmmm, let me see what I can do...

Like this, but closer range:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj2cQhxy6sY

Or the RD kick in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfXLifwKS8&feature=related

[bakxierboxer]

Hmmm, let me see what I can do...

Like this, but closer range:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj2cQhxy6sY

Very nice, but it doesn't help.



Or the RD kick in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfXLifwKS8&feature=related

Kyokushin named a kick after RD?

What doesn't compute for me is the hand placements you mentioned.
Seems they'd get in the way.
Neither of the two examples used the hands as you indicated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very nice, but it doesn't help.




Kyokushin named a kick after RD?

What doesn't compute for me is the hand placements you mentioned.
Seems they'd get in the way.
Neither of the two examples used the hands as you indicated.

Ah, I see,
At 3:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nZQcWG4Guo

[bakxierboxer]

Ah, I see,
At 3:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nZQcWG4Guo

Early in that one those were knees, not roundhouses.
The closest to what you were describing was probably Ninomiya(?) at @3:20, the last technique.

In no case did they "cross" their arms as you decribed:
right hand to upper left arm
and
left arm to left shoulder

from a 45 degree angle to the opponent's front left. (@ 4:22 "on the clock" face)

[SAAMAG]

Think of it done in the same fashion as a MT single knee attack--only with a kick.

[Edmund]

WC and BJJ are both in their own worlds, very complicated. They both take allot of time to master and both "live" in two different worlds. If we are talking about practicality of training (IE time, effort ect..) Its going to take much more effort to train in both arts.


True but I wouldn't say MT is that much easier....




I said wrestling was a better choice for a few reasons... one explosiveness... positioning dominance, and clinching. You can have all of those in BJJ but its not the main focus (but it can be).

Its all about what you want to train for? a SD/street fight or a MMA fight? if your doing MMA then if you don't do some type of submission based ground fighting system your really putting yourself at a disadvantage. If its SD/street fighting I would say that the core wrestling (position, clinching ect..) are most important. You just want to get back up and get out of whatever position you may be in. basic escapes from BJJ, and sweeps would also be good to train. But you don't have to devote as much to ground fighting as standup. maybe 70/30. What you devote your time doing should be limited to the above mentioned areas. IE basically more or less wrestling.


I agree. I think I said something similar in my initial post.

[Edmund]

The MT round kick is a "long range" kick, typically at its best from just outside punching distance, whereas the correct distance for the karate round kick is from punching distance where, you will notice, the MT round is not so good.


Well I think in MT they prefer punching them in the face when at punching distance. Kinda makes sense huh? :) WC is similar in that regard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Early in that one those were knees, not roundhouses.
The closest to what you were describing was probably Ninomiya(?) at @3:20, the last technique.

In no case did they "cross" their arms as you decribed:
right hand to upper left arm
and
left arm to left shoulder

from a 45 degree angle to the opponent's front left. (@ 4:22 "on the clock" face)

At 3:08-3:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nZQcWG4Guo
That is the position, see Where Asihara's right and left hands are?
In this case his right is a tad lower than what I describe, but its the same principle, he is also more on a 90 than a 45 -tomato/tomahto, type of thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I think in MT they prefer punching them in the face when at punching distance. Kinda makes sense huh? :) WC is similar in that regard.

LOL, yes I would agree, but everything in its proper context right?
Kicking from punching distance is not done "in your face" like punching, but typically off on an angle.

[bakxierboxer]

At 3:08-3:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nZQcWG4Guo
That is the position, see Where Asihara's right and left hands are?
In this case his right is a tad lower than what I describe, but its the same principle, he is also more on a 90 than a 45 -tomato/tomahto, type of thing.


I wasn't looking all that hard at the 90 degree stuff.

In any case, those still aren't hand positions I would use.

[bakxierboxer]

LOL, yes I would agree, but everything in its proper context right?
Kicking from punching distance is not done "in your face" like punching, but typically off on an angle.

.... unless you know how to do it......... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn't looking all that hard at the 90 degree stuff.

In any case, those still aren't hand positions I would use.

That's because you are not doing karate :p


.... unless you know how to do it.........

Of course. :D

[bakxierboxer]

That's because you are not doing karate :p

Funny, but I don't recall anything like that from when I did "do karate".
(is that where those idiots came up with "karate doo"?)

[SAAMAG]

Wow! I'm sensing a bit of condescension in this guy's posts!

Those high round kicks from punching, tie up range are common in kyokushinkai...I would almost go as far to say they're almost an icon of it.

If you honestly don't know what SR is talking about--or can't understand it--or just don't like it--it's not his fault. It's a simple hand placement and a simple kick...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow! I'm sensing a bit of condescension in this guy's posts!


Just a bit?
Pete must be losing his touch !


Those high round kicks from punching, tie up range are common in kyokushinkai...I would almost go as far to say they're almost an icon of it.
Typically because in competition we can't punch to the head.

[bakxierboxer]

Wow! I'm sensing a bit of condescension in this guy's posts!
..........
If you honestly don't know what SR is talking about--or can't understand it--or just don't like it--it's not his fault. It's a simple hand placement and a simple kick...

More like I don't like the hand placement he wrote about.

"Condescending" would be something else.