Shaolin Temple Discipleship

[Chan Quan]

Does anyone know what the process to become a modern-day Shaolin Monk would be?

How is it done in China and what is the road to discipleship if you're studying in the U.S.?

[mkriii]

Why? Are you thinking of becoming a Shaolin Monk?

The first thing to become a desciple is you have to be castrated and vow a life of chastity. Then they bring in 7 beautiful virgins to tempt you. If you reject thier pleasures then you are accepted as a disciple.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not sure but I think it involves sever pummeling of the groin on a regular basis, sometimes even your OWN groin !!
:eek:

[LFJ]

a university level education and a whole lot of money.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, and walking around with no Pants dragging huge stone cylinders with your "Mr. Happy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqymiCQgOZw

[mkriii]

In all seriousness it costs a lot of money. You have to pay by the month and live at the temple. Its like $2,500 a month for training and for room and board. If you agree to a one year contract it's a little cheaper. They also have other contracts for 2, 3 ,4 ,and even 5 year terms. Five is the longest you can sign up for at one time. You have to abide by thier rules. They can dismiss you at any time without refunding your money. No sex with anyone staying there is allowed. And If you get caught by the authorities for visiting the local brothels, thats grounds for dismisal. No refund. They accept men and women there at the temple.

[Chan Quan]

In all seriousness it costs a lot of money. You have to pay by the month and live at the temple. Its like $2,500 a month for training and for room and board. If you agree to a one year contract it's a little cheaper. They also have other contracts for 2, 3 ,4 ,and even 5 year terms. Five is the longest you can sign up for at one time. You have to abide by thier rules. They can dismiss you at any time without refunding your money. No sex with anyone staying there is allowed. And If you get caught by the authorities for visiting the local brothels, thats grounds for dismisal. No refund. They accept men and women there at the temple.


Thank you.

I look at the guys who trained at the temple who teach in the U.S. It seems Yan Ming has started to create his own disciples; but the Buddhist part of his instruction is relegated, it seems, to one hour a week.

Buddhist temples here in the U.S. understandably focus on spiritual development but nothing at all on the physical body.

As far as I know, the Shaolin Temple is the only Buddhist Temple that emphasizes both Buddhist and martial traditions.

If there were something here in the States like that, I would pursue it.

I plan to go Shaolin in China for at least a summer to see if the monastic life is for me. National Geographic did a documentary where there were two classes of students: the students who only studied kung fu, and those who had become full monks. Both were skilled in the physical aspects of the art.

As I get older, I'm looking for more than just the fastest kick or the hardest punch.

[mkriii]

Wish I had the money to do that. I personally think that it is a little to expensive. The food there is not what you get here in the States. Here you get lots of meat and little vegies. Over there it the opposite.....lots of veggies and little meat. When I say little meat I mean two or three pieces that are bite size. And a scoop of rice. NO ice for your drinks. You will loose about 15 to 20 pounds while there. I'm sure the Abbot of the temple get the luxeries that the monks don't get.

[kal]

Does anyone know what the process to become a modern-day Shaolin Monk would be?



Learn contemporary wushu.

[NJM]

Learn contemporary wushu.

Or take ballet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or take ballet.

Ballet is a little too rough to begin with, I would stick to WuShu and then move to ballet when you get good.

[mkriii]

Or take ballet.

wu shu does have its good qualities to you know. people who do wu shu have good stance, high jumps, great flexability, crisp clean punches, high kicks. on the down side it does not teach fighting skills (although I do know some awesome fighters that do wu shu) or grappling skills.

[unkokusai]

The food there is not what you get here in the States. Here you get lots of meat and little vegies. Over there it the opposite.....lots of veggies and little meat. When I say little meat I mean two or three pieces that are bite size. And a scoop of rice. NO ice for your drinks. You will loose about 15 to 20 pounds while there. I'm sure the Abbot of the temple get the luxeries that the monks don't get.




Is that how it was when you were eating there?

[mkriii]

Is that how it was when you were eating there?

No. But thats how it was for 8 of my classmates that went for a month. They all came back about 15 pounds lighter. Do you not think that it was like that when you were there? This was back in 1992.

[unkokusai]

No. But thats how it was for 8 of my classmates that went for a month.


Oh, I see. You sure made it sound as if you had been there personally.


.............

[GeneChing]

Does anyone know what the process to become a modern-day Shaolin Monk would be?
There are literally thousands of kids that train in live-in schools near Shaolin. Some of them are inclined to pursue a monastic life at Shaolin. These kids go through a rigorous series of examinations, which narrow the field, akin to the traditional system of examination established by Confucian rule for centuries.

Keep in mind that there are two classes of monks at Shaolin: wuseng (martial monks) and wenseng (more of your classical Buddhist monk). I'm not sure how many wenseng there are, probably hundreds. That's an easier class since you don't have to take as many vows. Most of the monks that we know in the West are wenseng. There are less than 200 wenseng at last count.

Now, there are a few westerners that claim they have been ordained as a monk at Shaolin. They didn't go through this same process. The most prominent of them at this time is Yanfan in L.A. We ran a feature on him in our last Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729): The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero Do. He's also mentioned in our monk initiation thread here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48245).


How is it done in China and what is the road to discipleship if you're studying in the U.S.?

You can be a disciple of any person, not just a monk or a martial arts master. For example, you might disciple under a master of tea ceremony or painting. The process is the same, with some slight variations in local/secular rituals. The key is to find the right master. If you just want to be a disciple, that's just like saying you want to be married. Get a mail order bride. I hear Russia is good for that. You'll find way too many resources about that here on our forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2). :rolleyes: Here's an old article (http://www.wle.com/resources/art024.html) of mine that addresses some of the basics of discipleship.

[David Jamieson]

. . . . . . . :)

[LFJ]

As far as I know, the Shaolin Temple is the only Buddhist Temple that emphasizes both Buddhist and martial traditions.

understand that in shaolin, martial arts is part of buddhist practice- used to push your chan experience further. they are not separate traditions. shaolin is about chan buddhist practice.


I plan to go Shaolin in China for at least a summer to see if the monastic life is for me.

honestly, if you are indeed sincerely interested in monastic life its a huge life choice you cant take so lightly. and you need not go to china for it. but understand its not something you can go and try out and if you dont like it, leave. monasticism doesnt work like that.

and if you're only interested in monasticism if there is gongfu involved, i think you should reconsider the reason you want to leave home. whether its serious buddhist commitment or what.

if you are sincerely interested in monastic life i suggest you take a little more time to look into what such a major life choice entails. if you'd like to pm me i can give you more details and places to look.


National Geographic did a documentary where there were two classes of students: the students who only studied kung fu, and those who had become full monks. Both were skilled in the physical aspects of the art.

if we're talking about monasticism, this is incorrect. it is imperative that all monastics study buddhism. even those who train in martial arts in shaolin, they first must learn buddhism. then they may start training martial arts while studying buddhism at the same time, which includes daily buddhist chanting services, chores and the like.

there is no class of monastics that only study martial arts. those are modern performance groups and have no monastic experience whatsoever.

also, i dont know what mkriii is talking about. perhaps some type of martial arts school. but that is not how monasticism works at all.

be clear on it especially before you waste your money going to china for something like that!

peace!

[Chan Quan]

Thank *all* of you for your perceptive replies.

It's a big decision and not one I want to take lightly.

Gene, thank you for all of the pointers and resources. I will study them carefully before I decide on a course of action.

[LFJ]

Keep in mind that there are two classes of monks at Shaolin: wuseng (martial monks) and wenseng (more of your classical Buddhist monk). I'm not sure how many wenseng there are, probably hundreds. That's an easier class since you don't have to take as many vows. Most of the monks that we know in the West are wenseng. There are less than 200 wenseng at last count.

i think you mean "wuseng"- the warrior monks class. they only take five lay precepts (10 while in the monastery) and have spread out in the west to spread chan through the vehicle of martial arts.

whereas "wenseng"- scholarly monks- is just another name for "heshang", or "bhikshu"- that is a fully ordained monk. not an easier class by any means. thats where the real work is done. i dont know of any from shaolin that have spread west. perhaps some in that handful out in california?

[GeneChing]

That was my bad typo. Still getting over a bout of summer flu. :(

It should read:
"I'm not sure how many wuseng there are, probably hundreds. That's an easier class since you don't have to take as many vows. Most of the monks that we know in the West are wuseng. There are less than 200 wenseng at last count."

I'm nowhere without proofreaders. ;)

[brothernumber9]

but understand its not something you can go and try out and if you dont like it, leave. monasticism doesnt work like that.

peace!

perhaps I don't know what monasticism means, and considering the context, I assume you are speaking of only, or mainly chan buddhism. In countries, like Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, it is fairly common for many men to have been monks at one time in their life, usually when they are young, and then to later become a regular joe in the sangha. Part of this stems from socio-economic conditions, mainly poverty and post war conditions from the seventies and eighties. But there are also some who explore it as a matter of choice as a possible avenue in their life, and then later discern that it is not for them.

[mkriii]

Oh, I see. You sure made it sound as if you had been there personally.
.............

No but my teacher and 8 classmates went. My teacher liven in China for 8 years. I've heard in detail what its like there. Not just from him but classmates as well.

[unkokusai]

No but my teacher and 8 classmates went. My teacher liven in China for 8 years. I've heard in detail what its like there. Not just from him but classmates as well.



So it wasn't your intention to make it seem as if you had gone yourself?

[mkriii]

So it wasn't your intention to make it seem as if you had gone yourself?

No, it wasn't. If I wanted to make people think I went I would not have just posted that I haven't been there and that it was my teacher and 8 classmates that went. I could have lied and said yes I have been there, now couldn't have I?

[mkriii]

Unk....why is it that you seem to have this hostility towards me? You question every post that I make. Do you have an obsession with me or something?

[LFJ]

perhaps I don't know what monasticism means, and considering the context, I assume you are speaking of only, or mainly chan buddhism. In countries, like Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, it is fairly common for many men to have been monks at one time in their life, usually when they are young, and then to later become a regular joe in the sangha. Part of this stems from socio-economic conditions, mainly poverty and post war conditions from the seventies and eighties. But there are also some who explore it as a matter of choice as a possible avenue in their life, and then later discern that it is not for them.

when young men go through that phase in theravada countries it is not full ordination. it is only novice ordination.

after their time as a novice they can choose to take full ordination or return to lay life.

what i'm talking about is full ordination. it is not something you can just go and try out for a little while and then leave. in any tradition.

first of all, its many times very difficult to become a monk because the masters have to be clear on your intentions (as do you). because this choice is "leaving home". you dont get to go back home and see your family and old girlfriends every thanksgiving holiday.

it takes quite some time through novice training and such before you can be considered for full ordination. many times in china you need buddhist university education.

and shaolin is of course much much different than any other buddhist monastery. thats why i'd question the intention of someone who wants to "become a monk" at shaolin temple and nowhere else if gongfu isnt a part of it.

if "leaving home" and committing one's life to the strict study and practice of the buddha's teachings in a monastery, there are much more practical and reasonable places to go. you dont even have to go to china for that anymore.

[unkokusai]

No, it wasn't.


Ok, just checking 'cause the way you described in great detail even what he would be eating everyday made me wonder.

[unkokusai]

Unk....why is it that you seem to have this hostility towards me?



I'm not fond of racists or poseurs.




But anyway, sorry to the others who are trying to have a real discussion.

[GeneChing]

LFJ is right. Vows are meant to be taken seriously and for a lifetime. Full monastic vows are a considerable undertaking.

But back OT, Chan Quan, your question is almost like asking "How do I get married?" before ever kissing a girl. Or a boy. Not sure what sex you are. Not sure that matters anymore in many states. But I digress. Generally, you don't start with the big full-on vows first. I only took layman vows. I took two sets, one as a Zen practitioner and another as a Shaolin disciple. That's plenty for me. I have no intention of becoming a monk. There was a time when I considered it, and I've actually lived at a couple temples and done some work studies, but I realized that it really wasn't my path. So take a few steps first, baby steps if you will, before tackling the big ones, just in case it's not where you want to go. You have to start small anyway.

Find a Buddhist temple. Start a practice there. Get some tutelage.

Being a monk is not what most people think it is.

[Chan Quan]

LFJ is right. Vows are meant to be taken seriously and for a lifetime. Full monastic vows are a considerable undertaking.

But back OT, Chan Quan, your question is almost like asking "How do I get married?" before ever kissing a girl. Or a boy. Not sure what sex you are. Not sure that matters anymore in many states. But I digress. Generally, you don't start with the big full-on vows first. I only took layman vows. I took two sets, one as a Zen practitioner and another as a Shaolin disciple. That's plenty for me. I have no intention of becoming a monk. There was a time when I considered it, and I've actually lived at a couple temples and done some work studies, but I realized that it really wasn't my path. So take a few steps first, baby steps if you will, before tackling the big ones, just in case it's not where you want to go. You have to start small anyway.

Find a Buddhist temple. Start a practice there. Get some tutelage.

Being a monk is not what most people think it is.

At first I wanted to learn more about the ritual and the process.

It is something I have thought about for some time. I will attend some services here in NY; probably at Master Shengyen's Dharma Drum Mountain and see how the Shaolin Temple Overseas is in Flushing.

I absolutely must take this slowly, if I want to make it a lifelong committment to something greater than myself. All I know is that since I've begun searching in this direction, I've been a happier, more tolerant, more patient, and much stronger person.

Becoming a full-fledged monk in *any* Buddhist tradition is an enormous committment. To be honest, I think that denying yourself a family, a wife, and children, robs your life of an essential joy. So I probably could not become a full monk.

I wasn't aware of the different kinds of vows one can take; I will definitely attend my first service this week. And perhaps, I can have two masters: one, a Buddhist "pastor" if you will, and the other, a martial arts instructor.

Gene, you mentioned that you took two vows. One as a layman, and the other as a Shaolin disciple. Being a Shaolin disciple is different from being a monk? How so and in what ways?

[GeneChing]

When you become a disciple, you become a disciple of a specific individual. You can become a disciple of any master in any discipline, not just Shaolin. Kung fu masters often take disciples, but so do masters in tea ceremony, painting, music, what have you. Anyone can become a disciple, just like anyone can get married (except if your gay in some states ;)). Some people disciple under multiple masters, but I've always thought that was odd, like polygamy. In a nutshell, it's a commitment to follow a specific teacher, to treat him or her like your parent. Of course, in Chinese culture, that's huge. Confucian ethics and filial piety makes massive demands on children in regards to respecting their parents.

There are countless Shaolin disciples. Some of the monks take thousands of disciples. The abbot allegedly has thousands. Others only take a few.

To become a monk, first of all, you're already a disciple of a monk. Next you must be accepted by the monastic community. It's more vows, more commitment, much deeper.

[LFJ]

it should also be made clear that it is secular discipleship, combining buddhist vows (committing to the buddha) with gongfu/confucian family vows (committing to your master and family).

for the buddhist half of the vows taken it is basically going for refuge in the triple gem (buddha, dharma, sangha) and then taking the five lay buddhist precepts. one still lives at home as a lay follower.

this can be done in any buddhist tradition. it is the basic requirement for becoming "buddhist". before taking refuge and the five precepts you are not "officially" buddhist. its called "entering the gate", but it is still not "leaving home" and entering the monastic life.

[GeneChing]

As for my Shaolin vows, they make it clear that there are wenseng and wuseng discipleships. Mine was wuseng. Decheng is wuseng.

As for my layman vows, LFJ is right again. I took the Bodhisattva precepts, of which there are ten in my tradition.

[lee jiaolian]

Hi Guys! I'm kind of new to this forum and thought I'd break the ice by sharing a story

I spent some time in summer of 2011 in dengfeng at Shi De Yangs school. I went with a group of kung fu brothers and sisters and slept and trained alongside the students there. The few times De Yang actually had time to speak to us in person were very profound moments. One such is this; one of our group asked De Yang "How exactly do we become shaolin disciples?" through his translator Jackie, De Yang Shifu kind of looked at us funny and said that the first day we commited to started our training back home was the day we started as disciples. That everyone who practices shaolin become a part of it and helps spread and keep shaolin alive.

That gave us chills hearing it come from the man himself. (so yea we had a little hero worship)

Funny, we all thought there was some ceremony to it, at least to the point of shaving our heads (hah!) Some of us even were starting to come up with the courage before we left the states to ask to become disciples, not necessarily his (not to sound arrogant), but of shaolin in general. Come to find out all that inner turmoil was pointless, it can be as simple as practicing a ma bu if you have come to the realization in your mind you are becoming an embodiment of shaolin as you train. So we are all already disciples. Cool eh?

[GeneChing]

lee jiaolian, I've merged your post above with this larger thread which discusses discipleship.

[Shaolin]

all that inner turmoil was pointless

Words to live by.

[lee jiaolian]

thanks for the move gene, still kinda new at this and didnt even see this earlier thread.

[GeneChing]

Really? There must be thousands of us westerner disciples by now. :rolleyes:


One of first westerners be made disciple (http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/westerners-disciple/story-16943555-detail/story.html)
Thursday, September 20, 2012

TOTNES martial arts instructor Matt Bindon has become one of the first westerners to be made an official disciple of the famed Shaolin Temple.

The kung fu expert, who trains in the traditional style founded by the famous Shaolin school in China, recently returned from the temple in the Hubei Province where he trained with masters and monks at the North Shaolin Temple.

During his stay, the Totnes instructor, who has travelled to China on several occasions to perfect his technique in tai chi, chi gong, traditional Shaolin kung fu and sanda or Chinese kickboxing, and attended an official ceremony.

He said: "It was such a privilege and a fantastic experience."

During his stay, Matt was also interviewed and filmed by Chinese TV who were interested in a foreigner studying the traditional martial art.

Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon.

He is one of the first western persons to be sworn in as a 35th Generation Shaolin Warrior Disciple.

As part of the ceremony, he received an official Chinese name given to him by the Shaolin Masters from the Temple.

Known as 'Shifu Matt', he trained under Master Shi Yanming Chen and had to start training at 5am for eight to nine hours of intensive training every day.

He said: "Training was very hard and I had to perform in front of other Masters and the Temples Head Abbot.

"I had the chance to train with top Masters in their respective styles which was very special."

Shaolin Kung Fu is the oldest of martial arts and teaches a complete system of martial technique and ability, while overall improving and maintaining health and well being.

Matt said that although it takes years to master Shaolin martial arts, he teaches all levels from beginners to advanced at the Follaton Community Hall in Totnes.

[TaichiMantis]

Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon.

...as opposed to "fake" authentic Shaolin Kung fu! :rolleyes:

[LFJ]

.

...as opposed to "fake" authentic Shaolin Kung fu! :rolleyes:

There is such a thing... The monks teach it now.

It's basically comprised of some authentic forms taught by authentic monks (in some cases), but they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms. The fighting side taught is just Sanda.

So it is indeed authentic, but it's still fake.

[Songshan]

There is such a thing... The monks teach it now.

It's basically comprised of some authentic forms taught by authentic monks (in some cases), but they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms. The fighting side taught is just Sanda.

So it is indeed authentic, but it's still fake.

Sort of agree, but it's hard to imagine what "Shaolin" authenticity would be without government rule and of course the politics. Some monks are "fake" because of interesting inner workings of Shaolin. It's a very intricate system that usually ends up in becoming a finger pointing contest anyway.

[YouKnowWho]

they have no knowledge of fighting principles contained in the forms.

I have met some Shaolin monks. From what they told me, their forms do have application. But those application are standerlized that no monk teacher is allow to change it.

It's not that difficult to come up just one application. Whether those monks know different applications, or be able to apply thos application in combat will be a different story.

[LFJ]

Notice I said fighting principles, not applications. Their applications have to be standardized because they don't actually understand the inherent concepts and principles of the forms or the system even. They think the hundreds of forms contain hundreds of hypothetical responses to a straight punch for instance. That kind of thinking is useless, as you will never be able to decide on a particular response for a particular situation in a fraction of a second and apply it successfully. Fighting doesn't work like that.

That's why they show hypothetical "applications" for each move as they teach the forms, but when they teach sparring they put on big gloves and just do Sanda.

Xiaohongquan, for example, contains within it concepts and principles of the "flood boxing" subsystem of Shaolin, which in itself teaches proper facing structure, range in combat, the "flood" strategy, principles for dealing with different kinds of force, and so on unique to the concept of "flood boxing".

The monks of today know nothing of this type of thing. They know individual "applications" for each move and then Sanda.

So it's authentic in that the forms are indeed authentic, and the monks may be monks, but it's still fake...

[rett]

Notice I said fighting principles, not applications. Their applications have to be standardized because they don't actually understand the inherent concepts and principles of the forms or the system even. They think the hundreds of forms contain hundreds of hypothetical responses to a straight punch for instance. That kind of thinking is useless, as you will never be able to decide on a particular response for a particular situation in a fraction of a second and apply it successfully. Fighting doesn't work like that.

That's why they show hypothetical "applications" for each move as they teach the forms, but when they teach sparring they put on big gloves and just do Sanda.

Xiaohongquan, for example, contains within it concepts and principles of the "flood boxing" subsystem of Shaolin, which in itself teaches proper facing structure, range in combat, the "flood" strategy, principles for dealing with different kinds of force, and so on unique to the concept of "flood boxing".

The monks of today know nothing of this type of thing. They know individual "applications" for each move and then Sanda.

So it's authentic in that the forms are indeed authentic, and the monks may be monks, but it's still fake...

Sounds like a realistic and clear-headed view of the situation. It would be really interesting if you have the time/desire to elaborate on any of this. I realize it might not easily lend itself to the written word, of course.

[LFJ]

It would be really interesting if you have the time/desire to elaborate on any of this. I realize it might not easily lend itself to the written word, of course.

Yes. It's far easier to explain clearly live. I once discussed it with someone for days over Facebook and it didn't go well. Then when they came to China just a couple minutes was enough to clear it all up. It's probably too far off topic here though. I'll maybe do a separate thread on it when I have time to organize some thoughts.

[GeneChing]

On taking martial vows. READ Big Brother’s Disciples (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1515) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/4703_20194503Discipleship.jpg

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