WCK clips

[Phil Redmond]

There are two new clips of Serbian Sifu Nenad Koviljac here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

[Katsu Jin Ken]

the bong tan was interesting, lot of space initially but all in all something i will defeniately try out. The pak lap is pretty cool as well.

[t_niehoff]

While I did like his clown outfit, what he demo'ed was a complete fantasy sequence (appropriate for the outfit, I guess).

No one is going to "straight punch" and continue to hold their arm out for you. (And while we're at it, they're not going to "punch" without trying to really hit you). And if they don't do that, this "technique" will never work -- it involves two movements (bong then tan) against what should be one very quick movement. Not only that but the tan sao will open you to his next shot. Of course my analysis could be easily refuted by showing him actually pulling that off in sparring consistently against good nonWCK fighters, but of course we'll won't see that until pigs fly. All this is is a fantasy sequence that will never work and to train it is to train fantasy.

Top that all off with the punches -- if you want to call them that. They are not punches since they don't hit and they don't achieve any objective (like breaking structure); they are fantasy, imaginary punches (just imagine if I hit the guy with these) wherehe just moves in the air. Well, if you are going to practice doing imaginary actions, why not just make the block imaginary too or just imagine that you are stepping?

Silly. This was simply silly.

[KPM]

Why put energy into a Tan Sao to completely change the line or trajectory of someone's punch when you could simply go around it or redirect it slightly? It doesn't seem very efficient to me. This even seems to violate the TWC rule of flanking. Why "open" the guy up with a Tan and put yourself on the inside where you could potentially have to deal with his other arm rather than leaving his punching arm on the line it occupies while doing a Lop to go around to the outside and zoning away from his other arm?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Why put energy into a Tan Sao to completely change the line or trajectory of someone's punch when you could simply go around it or redirect it slightly? It doesn't seem very efficient to me. This even seems to violate the TWC rule of flanking. Why "open" the guy up with a Tan and put yourself on the inside where you could potentially have to deal with his other arm rather than leaving his punching arm on the line it occupies while doing a Lop to go around to the outside and zoning away from his other arm?


***I'VE got to comment on this tan clip, because to let it stand as is will leave some unnecessary mistaken impressions.

Here's my experience with this move:

First, using the bong to a lop sao as one jams the straight lead punch from the parallel (blindside) position is a good move - as long as it's begun from a distance close enough to insure he doesn't have time and space to hook around the bong (with his lead hand) at the moment the wing chun guy starts to commit.

Secondly, the biggest issue is actually his other hand - as he could instantly follow with the rear cross to the head, to the body, or an uppercut to head or body, or a haymaker (round) punch to the head or body with the other hand...

at which point you have to interrupt your bong lop and deal with his other punch - whatever it may be - instead of transitioning the wu to a lop...which assumes he didn't throw the other hand.

BAD ASSUMPTION, since the chances are that he might interrupt his straight lead punch and/or simply immediately follow it with the other hand within the twinkling of an eye.

Does that mean you can never jam his lead with the bong before he gets a chance to unload the other hand?

No. It can be done. At a very close distance. But the wing chun fighter better be prepared for the other possibility - as against a good fighter it's the greater possibility.

Which means that the transition to TAN from the bong without immediately having to deal with his other hand being thrown at you before you could follow with the palm strike (as shown in the vid) is very unrealistic - since you are now on the inside and he has a clearer and less obstructed path to throw the other hand with.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Actually what you were seeing is taught in Chi Sao exercise. Same side, fook sao, tan sao, fook drops the tan, fook converts to punch, countered by bong, which immediately converts to tan sao, countered by fook. Thing is to not bong so deeply. Done at a shallow angle it is a quick conversion and the palm strike in conjunction with the tan sao will stop any effort of the other hand in striking at you.
I missed the clown suit I guess. Was it the white gung fu uniform blouse? I think that they wear that so that they look more like Gung Fu teachers. Makes you look more knowledgable. Nothing makes you look less professional than a pair of knee shorts and wife beaters.

Chiang

[Wayfaring]

Nothing makes you look less professional than a pair of knee shorts and wife beaters.


Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

Well yea, when demonstrating you want to make it completely visible so that the instructee can see exactly what is taking place. It can be rather exagerated at times for this purpose. In the movies they spend a great deal of time rehursing these things. And in some cases you can not really see what has just taken place. That is why Bruce Lee and all these other guys look so good. It is mostly dance if you look at it that way. They rehurse constantly until they can get a good fluid movement and then start shooting. They might shoot it over and over until they get it right. Most of those guys probably couldn't fight their way out of a mess.
I will say this, and that is that those boys over there in Serbia or where ever do their WC a lot different from the way I do it. Not necessarily wrong I don't think, but different.
When training, I would have students stand with their punching arm extended to the others chin and then move back a couple of inches. This way they could toss punches with conviction without worrying about busting up their training partner. They don't last long when you go pile driving them in the face. This way you can throw the punch like you intend to hit.

[bakxierboxer]

Darn. Slinks back to room to change workout clothes.

I actually like demos better where the person striking actually tries to hit the guy, as opposed to a short arm punch ending 18 inches from their head. They do better than that even on movie sets.

I don't want to sound preachy, or anything.... but "short arm" is a "generally accepted" slang and military term for a *****...... generally used with reference to a visual inspection for STDs following a military Liberty/pass.
Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

The "more acceptable" term in TCMA is usually "short hand" (vs "long hand")
(the "hand" usually being referenced is a "sau" or "technique")

[Wayfaring]

I don't want to sound preachy, or anything.... but "short arm" is a "generally accepted" slang and military term for a *****...... generally used with reference to a visual inspection for STDs following a military Liberty/pass.
Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

The "more acceptable" term in TCMA is usually "short hand" (vs "long hand")
(the "hand" usually being referenced is a "sau" or "technique")

I just admitted to training in knee shorts and wife beaters. What exactly is it that gives you an impression I care about politically correct "more acceptable" terms?

If you have to do a demo and post it on the interw3bz, don't punch like a wussbag where a little girl could avoid it with a thicker shade of eyeliner.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I remember the short arm inspecions. It quite often led to some really annoying nick names too.

I suspect that most of these demo's involve new students and most of them would be fearful of actually striking the sifu. There is little doubt from the way some of these guys handle themselves and the way that they move that they are skilled fighers, it is just in demonstrating their skills that we see room for improvement.
I have only taught a hand full of people, but when one would accidently strike a training partner I would stop and set them back in their training. It was necessary so that they would not become overbaring or aggressive in his training methods. It is good to beat on the mooky man, but you can not strike your training partners.

[bakxierboxer]

... I have only taught a hand full of people, but when one would accidently strike a training partner I would stop and set them back in their training. It was necessary so that they would not become overbaring or aggressive in his training methods. It is good to beat on the mooky man, but you can not strike your training partners.

Different types of training.....
"Accidental" contact when "not appropriate" was always cause for heart-felt apologies.
OTOH, *purposeful* contact during many drills was equally cause for "thank you's"
(often preceded by "dam-mit"s and other expletives) and a sometimes fervent "let's try that again!"

[bakxierboxer]

I just admitted to training in knee shorts and wife beaters. What exactly is it that gives you an impression I care about politically correct "more acceptable" terms?

:confused:
"Correct" terminology has nothing to do with being "politically correct".
It's either "right" or "wrong" ( with or without quotation marks)


If you have to do a demo and post it on the interw3bz, don't punch like a wussbag where a little girl could avoid it with a thicker shade of eyeliner.

Sooo.... does this mean that you're going to be posting a demo on the "interw3bz" of your short-arm techs while wearing your preferred garb and thickness/shade of eye-liner?
(sure to make an "impression" of some sort)

[anerlich]

Google it, or look it up on Answers.com.

You can do what you want, but I'm obviously not as interested in the subject as you appear to be ...


Sooo.... does this mean that you're going to be posting a demo on the "interw3bz" of your short-arm techs while wearing your preferred garb and thickness/shade of eye-liner?

Why, has this been a long-held wish of yours?

Wow, this thread sure went weird awful fast ...

[bakxierboxer]

You can do what you want, but I'm obviously not as interested in the subject as you appear to be ...

Oh?
"Been there! Done that!"?



Why, has this been a long-held wish of yours?

My main point is one of "accuracy".
Of course, this is less important to some people/styles.....

[anerlich]

My main point is one of "accuracy".
Of course, this is less important to some people/styles.....

Well, you got me there, my style doesn't concern itself with the most "accurate" pseudonym for the male genitalia.

It must be more important to you than the rest of us I guess.

[bakxierboxer]

My main point is one of "accuracy".
Of course, this is less important to some people/styles.....

Well, you got me there, my style doesn't concern itself with the most "accurate" pseudonym for the male genitalia.

Some folks don't even seem to be able to read text accurately.
My statement above was about "people" and "styles" (specifically)

Read whatever you like into it.
If you WANT your WC/VT/whatever to be known as a "short-arm" style, so be it.



It must be more important to you than the rest of us I guess.

Nope, entirely your choice as to what you want to d1ck around with.

[Wayfaring]

Back to the original clips from sifu Redmond. They're actually fine clips - just demoing opening up a line and pursuing an attack angle. You may or may not have time to do all that based upon your range, movement, and how committed to the initial punch your opponent is. Mostly you won't because it's hard to get an opponent to overcommit like that unless they've got you hurt.

I like demos to have punches that look a little more like realism, but that's my preference. Somebody doesn't like the white outfit. Yeah, fine.

All this other stuff about the boxer guy and his weird fetishes introducing short arm or whatever and wanting me to dress up is just plain gay. I'm just not into that kind of stuff - maybe you should look for a more topic specific forum for that for you.

But thanks for the clips, Phil. They're cool.

[bakxierboxer]

Back to the original clips from sifu Redmond.

A good idea......



All this other stuff about the boxer guy and his weird fetishes introducing short arm or whatever and wanting me to dress up is just plain gay.

Although you were the first to mention the term in this thread, my first post on the "subject" was addressed to Lee Chiang Po, who'd quoted your text, and he took it as it was intended and responded appropriately.
I don't give a rat's ass what you want to dress up like.



But thanks for the clips, Phil. They're cool.

Yep.

[Phil Redmond]

Back to the original clips from sifu Redmond. They're actually fine clips - just demoing opening up a line and pursuing an attack angle. You may or may not have time to do all that based upon your range, movement, and how committed to the initial punch your opponent is. Mostly you won't because it's hard to get an opponent to overcommit like that unless they've got you hurt.

I like demos to have punches that look a little more like realism, but that's my preference. Somebody doesn't like the white outfit. Yeah, fine.

All this other stuff about the boxer guy and his weird fetishes introducing short arm or whatever and wanting me to dress up is just plain gay. I'm just not into that kind of stuff - maybe you should look for a more topic specific forum for that for you.

But thanks for the clips, Phil. They're cool.

I just got back home but I'll make a clip explaining what the possibilities are regarding that technique. I hope Terrence realizes that I know people don't hold their arm out for you. The arm was held out so that a new student would complete the tan by making contact just in case there was a straight punch/fake which would turn into a round punch. The tan would then cover the round punch. Notice that I said round punch. Not tight hook. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

The reason Sifu Nenad had his student hold his arm out was to show the he must cover the area with a tan before continuing. Later on they can quickly pull the arm back in prep for another attack.
The guy isn't throwing "perfect" boxing punches but since he was available we asked him to help out. I also noticed that he held his hands out a few times. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1COyYQnvY

[KPM]

The reason Sifu Nenad had his student hold his arm out was to show the he must cover the area with a tan before continuing. Later on they can quickly pull the arm back in prep for another attack.
The guy isn't throwing "perfect" boxing punches but since he was available we asked him to help out. I also noticed that he held his hands out a few times. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1COyYQnvY

Ah! OK! That makes better sense that what was shown in that other video. Thanks Phil!

[Graychuan]

Why put energy into a Tan Sao to completely change the line or trajectory of someone's punch when you could simply go around it or redirect it slightly? It doesn't seem very efficient to me. This even seems to violate the TWC rule of flanking. Why "open" the guy up with a Tan and put yourself on the inside where you could potentially have to deal with his other arm rather than leaving his punching arm on the line it occupies while doing a Lop to go around to the outside and zoning away from his other arm?


After the bong-sao with the left a simple bridgewalk/kuen su kuen with the right hand will take care of the other hand regardless if it strikes second or not. This way the defense and offense are one. When this is done the bong sao with the left can turn right into a Loy Fon Kuen(inside whipping fist) and become a strike automatically instead of just rolling to another block.
In the Woo Fai Ching system we work with concepts of double arm control in our chi-sao(there is that thing again) and working from a square as well as a triangle which answers this question easily.
In the Woo System we don't shun the middle. Why practice all that Chi-Sao(standing right in the middle face to face) just to abandon it when drilling attack/defense?

Love , Peace, & Chitlin' Grease fellas,

:p~Cg~:p

[Phil Redmond]

Some new BJD clips on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXrckpDoU8U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq3Ixk-dp90