qixing & changhuxinyimen

[LFJ]

keeping with the shaolin forms history theme we've had as of late, i'd like to discuss the history and development of these two sets:

1. 七星拳 "qixingquan" (eng.: seven star boxing)
2. 长护心意门拳 "changhuxinyimenquan" (eng.: constant protection of the mind-gate boxing)

they are called "mother and son" sets, just as xiaohongquan and its matching dahongquan set. however, as we have determined most of the shaolin material evolved from rouquan and emperor zhao kuangyin's hongquan sets, i thought it would be interesting to discuss the origin of these two sets which seem to have a very interesting and unique style of their own.

changhuxinyimen is said to have been created by song dynasty monk huiwei, then altered in the yuan dynasty by jinnaluo, and in the ming dynasty by juexun, tongxiang and other warrior monks.

so any discussion on the origin of the sets, history of the creator and contributors, or the significance of their names, the style, etc. is welcome. i'd like to learn more about them if anyone has anything.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

seven stars came from 7 stars that landed on earth and they were about to attack the monks
the monks needed a new way to defend against the stars, so they made a new form called seven star form to fight off the 7 stars that came to earth to invade the monks
lol..jk..that was gay..
im bored

[GeneChing]

And I just started qixing. Qixing is really different. It's almost an anomaly. The stancework is unique, the use of the fengshou, and the fact that it's a cross pattern instead of a straight line. I just have the first half of it and am only one week in, so it's a pretty superficial understanding. I don't see the relationship between the two forms yet.

I do see the relationship between dahong and xiaohong. One totally jams the other during certain sequences. I often find that if I work one significantly more, the other collapses into it.

[LFJ]

yes, the qixing set is laid out upon the formation of the big dipper rather than the usual straight line. hence the name "seven star".

qixing and changhuxinyimen share the "rooster" steps along with the hand formation and some similar applications.

but thats the reason i ask, because they are so unique compared to the rest of the shaolin material. they must have interesting origins. even their names draw interest. "constant protection of the mind-gate" sounds as if its referring to mindfulness which in buddhism stands guard at the "six sense doors".

[sha0lin1]

One thing that I have noticed on qi xing quan is that all the video I have seen of this being done, everyone does the movements the exact same way. None of the positions are modified, added, or deleted as in other Shaolin forms. Each practitioner has his own interpretation of the flow of the form and how he emphasizes the movements but there is no variation of movements.

When I learned this form I remember thinking that this was the most unusual form that I had learned, the 7 star stance is very different, quite different from most of the traditional forms.

[GeneChing]

Well, I have the form anyway. I don't have the concluding section of changhuxingyimen yet, but I'm only a few moves away. I've been chipping on that one for several months now. Changhuxingyimen is quite long for traditional Songshan. Qixing is quite short. It was transmitted in a week. Of course, learning the move sequence and getting it are two vastly different things and the feel of qixing is pretty different; it's very challenging. I'm still grappling with applications and flow (but I'm still grappling with that in all my Songshan forms - they're so dense).

I've been pondering the changhuxingyimen and qixing as a muzi. I did notice that my changhuxingyimen jibengong lines were all messed up last night, which is typical for me for muzi forms. I've been working dahong a lot lately, and my xiaohong is totally messed up now.

This thread is super timely for me personally.

[LFJ]

One thing that I have noticed on qi xing quan is that all the video I have seen of this being done, everyone does the movements the exact same way. None of the positions are modified, added, or deleted as in other Shaolin forms. Each practitioner has his own interpretation of the flow of the form and how he emphasizes the movements but there is no variation of movements.

i've seen a few variations. for example, there were a couple kicks at the very beginning in one version i saw. and the elbow at the end of each line is sometimes different.

for example the way shi yongzhi does it is a straight elbow in gongbu. while the way i learned it is an upward vertical elbow with the feet together.

but basically they are not as varied as some other shaolin sets which can have pretty huge differences.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RuX7jh40hc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVTIWYlncC8&feature=related

[GeneChing]

Shi Yongzhi was one the cover of our last Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729). The photo was on loan from Shaolin: Temple of Zen: Photographs by Justin Guariglia (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48263). Yongzhi is featured in there doing qixing.

Where are the changhuxinyimen vids? ;)

[LFJ]

changhuxinyimen is almost always abbreviated and switched around to cut out the repetition. but here are a few i've come across:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NjtAJBlIUcU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ileVWASgtVE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gWKVO_wlf2Y&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d9ARnhPbkhQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYErJ2GZP4&feature=related

[sha0lin1]

i've seen a few variations. for example, there were a couple kicks at the very beginning in one version i saw. and the elbow at the end of each line is sometimes different.

for example the way shi yongzhi does it is a straight elbow in gongbu. while the way i learned it is an upward vertical elbow with the feet together.

but basically they are not as varied as some other shaolin sets which can have pretty huge differences.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RuX7jh40hc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVTIWYlncC8&feature=related

Thanks for the vids LFJ. The way I learned it is like Yongzhi but, like you, I learned it with the vertical elbow in 7 star stance. Up until now I had not seen any variations of this form.

[GeneChing]

That last one of Liu Baoshan is a classic. I wonder when that was shot. It was at the Wushuguan, so after '88. I interviewed GM Liu in 2003 (see our 2003 November/December issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397) 13,000 Warriors of Taguo: Grandmaster Liu Baoshan & the World's Largest Martial Arts School). I remember he made a point about qixing and changhuxinyimen as being the most significant of the Taguo Shaolin heritage. Part of his argument was based on the murals in White Garment Hall, which he claimed represented the only forms that were Taguo's true legacy. Indeed, looking at the frescos, the hand positions look the most like feng shou in qixing and changhuxinyimen. It's notable that not all versions of changhuxinyimen use the feng shou, but with the ones that do, it certainly strengthens the muzi argument.

[LFJ]

thats interesting about the mural. :cool:

the way i learned them, they share a few of the same postures and hand positions as well as applications.

such as the feet together squat in qixing stance with the hands in what we call qianshou meaning plier-hand, one up and one down. (what is the character or meaning for fengshou?)

interestingly the arms in that position form the big dipper (seven star) as well. just kinda upside-down.

in both sets, the move immediately following that position is the left (upper) hand "brushing" off the right shoulder down the right arm as if "clearing" an opponents hand.

in qixingquan its followed by pulling the left arm back while striking forward with the right back-hand and left tantui.

in changhuxinyimenquan it is followed by wrapping the hands up to fist while lifting the left knee, which is a qinna wrist/elbow lock where the knee adds extra pressure.

[GeneChing]

feng means wind. It's a reference to the fingers being spread so the wind goes through them. I heard that from an article we ran on qixing in our 2005 May/June issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590): 7 Star Fist: Shaolin Qixing Quan Revealed By Shifu Shi Xing Ying with Grace Gee, Bujin Guo, and Chen Xinghua.

[GeneChing]

I totally see the relationship now. I'm glad you mentioned the muzi connection, LFJ. I probably would not have seen that right away.

My current Shaolin master, Yanfei, confirmed the connection and broke it down a little when I asked him. He's not always forthcoming about details like that and probably would not have offered that tidbit unless pressed, so I'm really glad I asked. Many in our class are beginners.

This thread needs some lyrics. We've done the lyrics for BSL (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19371). For Songshan Shaolin, we've posted lyrics for xiaohongquan (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?) and Sal posted some old lyrics (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43738). Maybe when I get a break I'll post some (or if any of you get ambitious, please have at it!) I think I have few lyric sets for these two forms. Of course, there's always Taguo's Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html).

[LFJ]

i have the lyrics for qixingquan saved on another computer. i can post that when i get the chance. i'll probably have to dig for the changhuxinyimenquan lyrics though.

also, i'm sure if our versions differ, the lyrics will likely differ slightly as well. for example we already have the fengshou and qianshou names for the hand-form that differ.

but what i'm waiting for is of course sal or someone to come on here with some history and explanation of why these sets so strangely differ from other shaolin material and any further insight into the style.

[GeneChing]

That's one of the things I find really fascinating about Shaolin. There's this core of forms and then there's variations. Even with the BSL there are lyrical variations. Each solid variation holds some unique wisdom worth exploring. I've learned dahong from three different masters and each had their take on it. Decheng's and Yanfei's yinshougun are very different. I enjoy them both and practice them alternatively as the mood takes me (although I just do Yanfei's in his class, of course.)

I should mention that I'm really getting into both forms. I can see where there's all sorts of stuff going on in them. I've always been fascinated by qixing because the postures are so different. I doubt I could apply a lot of the finger jabs since I no longer train my fingers. There was a day when I could do fingertip push-ups with clapping in between (there's footage of me demonstrating that in Wing Lam's Chin Na Training Methods and Tools (http://www.wle.com/products/VCN06D.html). But I haven't done much fingertip training since beyond working the keyboard (and that's only good for forum fu ;)) Changhuxinyimen is brilliant in composition. It's like several difficult ideas, linked together with this rather long refrain that always ends in variations - a classic pedagogical structure for form transmission - then it ends in a reversal and some dahongquan variations. What's more, that refrain echoes the most flamboyant move of qixing, same momentum only carried differently through the body. At least, that's the way it seems with our version. I can see I'll have years of fun unraveling these two.

[GeneChing]

I've been working qixing a lot lately, trying to get that energy down. It's a great form. I love it's energy, especially with the elbow strikes. I've been lax with changhuxinyimen, and just this week, Yanfei wanted to see it. Well, it was totally messed up. I kept falling back into qixing. I've experienced the same cross-up with xiaohong and dahong. If you focus on one, the other goes to pot. Got to work them both if you want to keep them both. I can seem the pedigogical device for making qixing so short and changhuxinyimen so long. It's especially interesting that the composition of changhuxinyimen has so many twists at the very end - quite logical really.

[LFJ]

It's especially interesting that the composition of changhuxinyimen has so many twists at the very end - quite logical really.

yeah, its great. not my favorite form to do, but definitely one of my favorites to watch. i'd probably like to do it more if i had a mirror wall to watch myself in. its such a neat looking form. very powerful.

[sha0lin1]

I haven't learned Changhuxinyimen yet but that is an awesome form, thanks for the vids and discusions.

LFJ,

Sometime back you and I had a discusion about Shaolin Tai Chi. I found the form on you tube and this was the form I was taught albeit with a few variations. Check it out, is this what you were talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_70tWRPbvQ

[GeneChing]

That looks like Xu Dezhen performing, but I can't quite tell because the resolution is too low. We just worked with Xu for the Qigong Symposium and Training Workshop (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=886734&postcount=13). I think he holds a higher degree from some Sports University. While he dons robes and has a Shaolin name (see The Gold Mountain Monks: 38 Shaolin Immigrants to the San Francisco Bay Area By Chen Xinghua and Gigi Oh in our 2007 November/December issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729)), I suspect much of his training came from the U, not Shaolin.

[LFJ]

LFJ,

Sometime back you and I had a discusion about Shaolin Tai Chi. I found the form on you tube and this was the form I was taught albeit with a few variations. Check it out, is this what you were talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_70tWRPbvQ

i saw that video quite a while back. its not the shaolin mianquan i was talking about.

that looks like an interestingly stylized version of chen style taijiquan. there are many abbreviated forms combining the core of laojia yilu and erlu. most of the chen masters have their own. but still very distinctly chen style. thats what this looks like.

shaolin mianquan is different though. it doesnt begin with the familiar chen style opening up to the "single whip" posture, as this video does.

really it shares a lot with taizu changquan, which chen style taijiquan does also, but its visibly different from chen style.

i did link to a couple videos of it, didnt i?

[Eugene]

Dropping in on a old thread :)

Is there any reason for Zhanghu Yinximen, (wich I like alot since I have seen the video of Liu Baoshan doing it) that he starts by going to the right instead of all the other sets from Songshan who go to the left , ( Except Taizu I believe )

I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.

[LFJ]

I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.

its a video series on the 10 famous songshan shaolin boxing sets.

[Eugene]

Thanks LFJ,

I watched them with great pleasure today ! :)

is the following information correct, I can then use it.

Currently, there are a multitude of Shaolin Masters throughout the world as the Shaolin Temple gains the popularity and following of its historical past once again. In Henan Province, Ten Traditional Shaolin Boxing Masters have gained recognition and been commemorated: Cui Xiqi, Chen Chengwen, Chen Wujing, Fu Zhigan, Liu Baoshan, Liang Yiquan, Liu Zhenhai, Wang Changqing, Lian Heguan and Chen Jun.


The first name is of the Mysterius Tong Bi Master, ( Cui Xiqi )
through you idea of more videos, I found the name.

Btw this is a little weird, http://images.google.nl/images?sourceid=navclient&hl=nl&rlz=1T4ACAW_nl___NL345&q=cui%20xiqi&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Are the first two guys the same, I have never seen Liang Yiquan with a beard.
The first pictures according to the words is Liang Yiquan and the second is Cui Xiqi ?

I dont know if this is the same guy from You Tubes Cui Xiqi, but he also has a beard.






Much greetings Eugene

[LFJ]

if you actually follow the link to the page hosting the picture, you'll find that caption is for another picture of liang yiquan, while that picture is actually titled "cui xiqi".

[RenDaHai]

Never got a chance to comment the first time this thread went up;

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men has two major translations, I am still not sure which is the most correct.

1. Defend the Heart and open the mind (hu-xin yi-men) long boxing. Means to stop from becoming emotionally involved in the combat and to keep the mind open and flexible so that answers can present themselves.

2. The long defensive boxing of the xin-yi school (xin-yi-men Chang-Hu-quan).

This form is certainly partenered with Qi XIng Quan, they share several short sequences, and both make use of the same hand position, which is not found so much in other forms.

Can't say much about the history, only that Tagou does these two forms very well, and only really does these two forms well.

There are several variations on chang hu, the main one (tagous) has 3 sections. I have seen a version with 5 sections and many versions with 1 or 2 sections. There are 2 major stylistic variations. One which uses hammers to strike with and the other that uses fists. This small variation makes for some quite different stances throughout the form. (tagous uses fists).

The hand used in Qixing is fantastic. It has many applications. When the thumb tries to move towards the little finger the palm closes up and forms an incredibly hard surface, feel it yourself. The fingers thus splayed can be used to grasp soemones hand without closing the fingers and committing yourself to a grab. The hand can also be use as a hook. It can also be used to protect the throat (palm towards throat, as in mural). It can be used to catch hits directly, like a baseball glove. It can be used to strike the opponant like tui zhang, it can also be used like a hammer, it can also be used by striking with the fingers directly. Doing so you musn't tense the fingers too much. Because the force is spread over a large area you needn't strengthen the fingers, it fits directly to the shape of someones face with the palm striking the chin.

On the history I can't help.... Some people have told me its a dengfeng form not a shaolin form.....

[RenDaHai]

QiXing and Changhuxinyimen are like mother and son fists WITHIN certain sects.

However QiXIngQuan is much older and originally unrelated.

QiXing has 3 roads. 2 of which I can confirm still exist. While Road 1 has 4 alternative versions, only 1 of which is on youtube.


The name may be older but the current Changhuxinyimen is derived from the XiaoHongQuan of Mogou Pai. (Mogou pai is a song shan sect). Mogou is itself a derivative of the XiYuan Pai and they also have a version of QiXing Quan road 1, which is completely different.

If you see the XiaoHongQuan you can see CHXYM but also how it relates to the current XHQ (if you have good eyes for technique).

I have sent you a PM with a link to a video I filmed of Mogou XHQ. Its a unlisted video and I prefer you keep it that way for now.

The performance style is different but you should be able to see the technique. Enjoy.

[RenDaHai]

i'm sure you have much to say on it. just, as a question, i may ask how do you say that it's Chang Hu Xin Yi Men that has been derived from this Mogou Pai form, and not vice versa? of course the technical contents, which link this form to the older forms and shen fa are a strong reason, but is there any other information like a historical piece or any folk story?


Well, yes you can see to some extent from the technique and also the relation to the current Xiao Hong Quan.

Also they have other forms. Even a Lao Hong Quan (which is effectively a second CHXYM).

All of which share a similarity to Hong Quan technique. The repeated section is more fundmental and important than that in CHXYM and it is easy to see how CHXYM could be derived from MPXHQ but not so easy the other way around.

Also in nearby places there are intermediate forms.

Also they have stories. They say over a century ago a great master from their village took their Kung Fu back to Shaolin Temple.

This would be consistant as CHXYM only exists in a few sects in Shaolin. Most of what you see comes from a distinct era.


My hypothesis is that ChangHuXinYiMen is an old name in Shaolin and I think it was a set of technique but perhaps not a form. When Mogou Pai XHQ was returned to shaolin there was no need to call it XHQ because that already existed. So they merged Mogou XHQ and QIXing QUan and Guandong quan with the technique from the xinyimen and created CHXYM, Qixing and guandong quan in their current popular forms.

QiXing quan in other sects in song shan is very different and bears no resemblance to CHXYM.


I need to research a little more and also learn the rest of Mogou Pai.

The surviving Mogou forms are XiaoHongQuan, QiXIngQuan, YunYang Quan, LaoHOngQuan, GuanXiQuan, LiuHeQuan, ChunQiuDaDao.