The Boxing Bridge In CMA

[UmFu]

It seems to me that in order for Chinese martial artists to be competitive in kicking boxing events, it will be necessary to develop good BOXING. Looking at SOME of the full contact sporting events around the country, it’s obvious that fundamental boxing skills are necessary in these sporting events. Too often we see “bad kickboxing” by CMA fighters who are poorly trained in boxing and/or have no real boxing training. This is the bridge that CMA will have to make in order to COMPETE in SPORTING or full contact events. My opinion in regards to the sporting events is that fundamental boxing skills will create a bridge for more stylistic/CMA techniques and concepts to be applied.

Coming from a boxing background into CMA (Jow Ga) I don’t see a difference in fighters based on style, I only see the difference between training methods and individuals. Not to promote my school, but the best example I have is that the most of the gung fu application taught in our school not only apply to the principles of boxing I learned, but they also expand what I can from a boxers stand point. With my boxing foundation, the CMA style that i train now has expanded my view on fighting

Obviously wrestling and grappling skills will come into play depending on the event, but that’s another thread. I’m new to CMA and this forum so your thoughts on the “Boxing Bridge Theory In CMA” would be appreciated.

Thanks
UmFu

[yaoli]

I think this is good point. too often the student has only little knowledge on how to use his style & then no experience in boxing strategy for competition which is no good. I think if you have good boxing technique it will make opportunity for more advance martial techniques like in CMA & other styles

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why not just learn to use your Kung Fu to exploit the weaknesses of Boxing, and beat them that way? Then you don't have to learn two opposing methods.

[UmFu]

Why not just learn to use your Kung Fu to exploit the weaknesses of Boxing, and beat them that way? Then you don't have to learn two opposing methods.


Thanks RD
that's one of my points, I don't think they're so opposite. of course this may have something to do with my style of CMA. in jow ga we use straight, hooking , uppercut, power back hand techniques, overhands etc. actually my CMA experience has opened my eyes to other ways I can impliment these techniques along with other techniques distinct to CMA. to me some of the basics in boxing such as timing, continuous attack, angles, power, bridging (offensively & defensively)..... are similar& just stylistically different.
before my current CMA school I tried other schools & in just one month I was able to beat many of the so called advanced kung fu students with only my amateur boxing experience. NOW in a sparring situation when faced with an opponent who can box, but also use distinct CMA techniques that i'm not familiar with, I realized the limitations of my boxing against martial artist in general.

[Ray Pina]

I'm going to NY in a few weeks. When I get back to Puerto Rico I'm joining a local boxing gym. At the least I'll be mixing it up with the fists to compliment my BJJ. At the best I hope to pick up some extra footwork, body movement in the pocket and a lead left jab/power right to add an extra look to my now power right lead.

Why not? Might as well take advantage of a local past time.

[UmFu]

in comparison between boxing and CMA techniques, i learned how to throw an overhand technique from CMA training after boxing for 11 years. in jow ga we use a technique called kum choy. kum choy in our style is a mix between a so choy and hook punch. in this scenario CMA improved my boxing overhand technique by teaching a more efficient way to generate my power along with a root stance to support the power of the kum choy.

not to get side tracked, so i want to go back to my initial thought regarding sport fighting and the use of boxing to bridge CMA techniques and help CMA adapt to sporting full contact events.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I really don't think you need to use boxing to help CMA function in sporting arenas. CMA is not deficient. To say that Boxing can, or should be used for such a task is to sugjest that it is in some way.

Just get good at your CMA, and apply it to the situations commonly found in the ring and you will prevail.

[UmFu]

I really don't think you need to use boxing to help CMA function in sporting arenas. CMA is not deficient. To say that Boxing can, or should be used for such a task is to sugjest that it is in some way.

Just get good at your CMA, and apply it to the situations commonly found in the ring and you will prevail.

Many of the movements you see in most combative arts (CMA, boxing, etc) have basic and fundamental similarities. Even within the various CMA styles you'll find many fundamental similarities. From what i've seen in CMA, some of the main differences are stylistic and emphasis on certain techniques and concepts.

I’m actually suggesting that beyond the basics and fundamentals, CMA can be MORE efficient depending on the individual and his training in CMA. I am also suggesting that if any martial artists decides to step into a "kickboxing" ring, it might be a good idea to know how to "kick" and "box":)

Real CMA fighting involves adapting. The CMA's decades ago naturally adapted to the fighters in their environment during that time and so should CMA today.

I think one problem is that some CMA look at boxing as something so different and don't realize that in some instances they're fundamentally related on a basic a level. youtube clip after youtube clip, i see so many fights where people who claim to be CMA are fighting with what I call sloppy kickboxing. these guys are getting beat down by fundamental boxing principles, which apply to many CMA too. With all of CMA techniques adaptable to size and circumstance, CMA should prove better than that.

CMA does have alot of very good techniques and principles, which far exceed boxing. The problem i see in regards to SOME CMA people fighting in "kickboxing" or "full contact" events is that they don't know how to bridge all of their wonderful techniques and concepts in the ring. if people stop separating boxing, which is fundamentally gung fu, CMA fighters may not only do better in the ring, but will have an opportunity to excel as they incorporate CMA techniques beyond the fundamental or basic level.

lets face it, there are CMA teachers that know the form, but don't know how to incorporate the applications in the ring. the rules, equipment, timing, and situation in kickboxing bouts can inhibit some CMA techniques. not making an excuse for some CMA techniques, only pointing out that the ring environment may be more conducive for more basic & fundamental techniques. Obviously on the streets where you have no rules, no equipment, no time limit, no point system, more unique CMA techniques can prevail.

keep in mind that my opinion relates to CMA in the ring or kickboxing environment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have always said that the best way to beat a boxer ( or judoka, or bJJ palyer) is to get good at Boxing ( or judo or BJJ....).
You can TRY to beat them by getting "better" in your chosen system, but that is only part of the equation, you have to KNOW their system to beat it, it certainly makes things easier and you'll probably pick up a few good things on the way too.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

HOW TO BEAT A BOXER (by RD)

Cover your head real well, charge in and get really close by weathering a hit or two as you suddenly enter into grapling range. Grab his head and twist it hard to one direction or the other. Hold on tight, and retreat as fast as you can dragging him down by his noggin as you do.

Jump up and down on him like a rabid Monkey.

[sanjuro_ronin]

HOW TO BEAT A BOXER (by RD)

Cover your head real well, charge in and get really close by weathering a hit or two as you suddenly enter into grapling range. Grab his head and twist it hard to one direction or the other. Hold on tight, and retreat as fast as you can dragging him down by his noggin as you do.

Jump up and down on him like a rabid Monkey.

You forgot the part where your liver is smacked up into your throat area.
:D

[Lucas]

The thing with boxing, and todays martial artist, is that fewer and fewer people are 'boxing purists' more and more people are cross training. and rightfully so.

a lot of boxers now have some form of tma background as well, MT, Judo, BJJ, JMA, CMA, KMA.

sure go to a boxing gym and you will find pure boxers, or a boxing event.

but let me ask you this.

how many TMA people enter pure boxing competitions? probably none. unless they are also western boxers.

where would a TMA meet a person with boxing background in a competative event?

MMA, SanShou, and the like.

where likely the boxer will have more in their game than just boxing.

boxing vs tma is a pretty rare event now days.

[UmFu]

Of course there are CMA’s who are very good at applying the more unique and characteristic techniques or concepts of CMA in the ring.

RD: LOL!

Lucas wrote:

where would a TMA meet a person with boxing background in a competative event? MMA, SanShou, and the like.

very good point. If a TMA/CMA intends to compete in one of these type events, he/she should obviously know how to use his TMA/CMA as it relates to this specific setting. my point isn't that TMA/CMA people should be limited to fighting the boxers fight. My point is that boxing is a common and significant element in these full contact sporting events so if CMA can bridge their CMA techniques with this element, CMA may be able to capitalize on it. Another point would be that if you're going to box in a kickboxing match, at least start with knowing how to box.

btw, my comments do not apply to all CMA schools and only to the ones i have personally seen.

[Lucas]

another aspect of cma vs boxing is that where as a boxer is only going to box. a cma practitioner is generally trained to be ready for legs/throws as well.

if a cma person is going up against a boxer, and they do not re evaluate the situation to the point that they tighten up their guard and are ready for everything the boxer will throw, they can be at a disadvantage.

for instance, a boxer will not be prepared for the legs, and throws a cma person is going to throw, but on the flip side, if a cma person fights under the same guidlines they would in a match using legs/fists and throws, the boxer will likely get inside the guard rather easily

your standard cma ready guard is pretty open to 100% pure boxing. the reason being of course the aspect of expecting kicks and throws, and not being trained to fend an aggressive western boxers will limit the cma persons compatability, unless otherwise trained to deal with a boxer.

[Lucas]

at the first cma school i studied at i would have a lot of fun in sparring switching from the style there to western boxing. using my legs and footwork to fend off kicks.

some people would get a bit upset, but i didnt really care. imo it was good for them to realize the majority of people they run into arent going to fight they way they expect them to.

also, your average american is going to adopt something akin to boxing in a street fight anyhow.

[KC Elbows]

You forgot the part where your liver is smacked up into your throat area.
:D

It's clear that you don't do enough kegels, everyone knows the fundamentals of kung fu are drop the elbows, spine erect, and pull your testicles and liver up into your throat using your powerful kegel kung, then eye poke.

This is why true kung fu men never get grandpa balls.

[lkfmdc]

I don't know, maybe it is just me? But so much of this conversation seems backward... "oh, CMA has to study boxing to do sport but, blah blah blah"

For one, the way you hit someone in the head in a "sport" isn't radically different then how you club them in the head in the street

Here's an idea, instead of CMA people learnign to "box" how about they just learn to "punch"? Is there really any TCMA system that doesn't have straight punches, hoooks, uppercuts, overhands (oh, yeah, other thread :rolleyes: please!)

CMA people need to stop looking for "the deadly" and go back, gasp, to BASICS. That's the biggest problem!!!!!!!!

[KC Elbows]

Yes, but the straight punch, hook, et al only occur in the form once, and doesn't involve anything too esoteric seeming, so you only use it once in a fight, right?:D

[lkfmdc]

I guess that is the beauty (and ugliness) of a system like Lama, it's all basicly beating and pummeling your opponent with punches, knees and kicks (not much fluff)

[Lucas]

i dont think the reference on learning how to punch is whats in question. a lot of cma people can punch pretty well and darn hard with good accuracy, speed and power.

rather more that your 'average' cma guy doesnt often times train to keep himself covered well from a practiced boxer.

ive noticed this myself on more than one occasion.

IMO, its more that a cma person needs to be aware of what to expect from a boxer. if you walk into a ring against a boxer and are completely ignorant of how a boxer operates, you can get caught by suprise.

this is almost redundant however as most people who are entering mma events have a decent understanding of striking, often times with influence from sources outside cma.

for instance, look at the posers, er poses you see on the majority of CMA school web sites.

unfortunately it comes down, again, to the fact that there are just too many cma people out there who arent really training to fight. but think they are.

[KC Elbows]

I guess that is the beauty (and ugliness) of a system like Lama, it's all basicly beating and pummeling your opponent with punches, knees and kicks (not much fluff)

Even when it's not supposed to be fluff, but has a rational purpose, people get in the trap of trying to "move like" their style instead of using their style's movements to do what they're supposed to.

[UmFu]

99% of the san da, san shou, kickboxing .... videos posted on this forum show 99% of the fighters using techniques that resemble boxing as 99 % of their striking arsenal & in 99 % of the cases where the loser gets beat down it was because the loser attempted to fight a fight that he or she was not good at. hence boxing. it's bad enough that they couldn't use their own style but even worse that they couldn't properly use basic & common techniques which dominate the full contact SPORT.

[lkfmdc]

99% of the san da, san shou, kickboxing .... videos posted on this forum show 99% of the fighters using techniques that resemble boxing as 99 % of their striking arsenal & in 99 % of the cases where the loser gets beat down it was because the loser attempted to fight a fight that he or she was not good at. hence boxing. it's bad enough that they couldn't use their own style but even worse that they couldn't properly use basic & common techniques which dominate the full contact SPORT.

Maybe 99% of the fighters are not so much using "boxing" as in the Western sport but rather simply what WORKS, ie basic strikes using the closed fist, ie straight, hook, uppercut and overhand.... maybe being able to use their "style" should also mean being able to use basic punches

[Flying-Monkey]

I don't know, maybe it is just me? But so much of this conversation seems backward... "oh, CMA has to study boxing to do sport but, blah blah blah"

For one, the way you hit someone in the head in a "sport" isn't radically different then how you club them in the head in the street

Here's an idea, instead of CMA people learnign to "box" how about they just learn to "punch"? Is there really any TCMA system that doesn't have straight punches, hoooks, uppercuts, overhands (oh, yeah, other thread :rolleyes: please!)

CMA people need to stop looking for "the deadly" and go back, gasp, to BASICS. That's the biggest problem!!!!!!!!

You could not be more correct.

[UmFu]

It seems to me that in order for Chinese martial artists to be competitive in kicking boxing events, it will be necessary to develop good BOXING….

My opinion in regards to the sporting events is that fundamental boxing skills will create a bridge for more stylistic/CMA techniques and concepts to be applied.

Many of the movements you see in most combative arts (CMA, boxing, etc) have basic and fundamental similarities.

I think one problem is that some CMA look at boxing as something so different and don't realize that in some instances they're fundamentally related on a basic a level

I am also suggesting that if any martial artists decides to step into a "kickboxing" ring, it might be a good idea to know how to "kick" and "box"

not to get side tracked, so i want to go back to my initial thought regarding sport fighting and the use of boxing to bridge CMA techniques and help CMA adapt to sporting full contact events.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

HOW TO BEAT A BOXER (by RD)

Cover your head real well, charge in and get really close by weathering a hit or two as you suddenly enter into grapling range. Grab his head and twist it hard to one direction or the other. Hold on tight, and retreat as fast as you can dragging him down by his noggin as you do.

Jump up and down on him like a rabid Monkey.

You are ridiculous, RD.

You should listen to what is being said here, instead of sounding like an idiot. Give it a shot sometime, see what happens.

My teacher loved boxing and even fought competitively in western boxing matches when it became popular in southern china. He won his weight division for Toi-San in the 40's. He went to Gong Muyhn (where fighters came from all over Canton/Guangdong) and represented his city, where he was victorious again. (kinda equivalent of winning for the five boroughs of NY type of thing).

When I first went to Toi san several years ago, I learned more about his boxing career, met his boxing coach and heard stories about his fights. The first two he lost to the same person, because he didn't train boxing rules and did not realize that the gloves neutralized many techniques. He began to train with a coach who is the still teaching CMA today in Toi-San. His name is Gong Gum Woon and he's the president of the Toi-San martial arts association.

Chan Tai-San loved grew to love boxing and excelled in the sport. He never really made a disctinction between boxing and CMA. Punching is punching..etc., etc. Personally, I don't really find any conflict in their offensive strategies at all. Defensively, there are some differences, I'll admit and you definately are hampered by gloves, but I believe the core skills are the same.

What you really must learn is how boxers train before makings such wacky statements, RD.

Boxing is good. Thinking that there is nothing to learn from it if you know CMA, is silly.

That is like saying that CMA has grappling and you can apply the same principles to the ground and beat BJJ. C'mon....

My teacher didn't just enjoy the sport, he recognized the strengths of boxing as a fighting art/science. This from a guy who started learning KF at 8 and didn't stop learning until his 50's. He wasn't interested in being a teacher at 30 and earning a living, he wanted to fight and learn to fight better. Do you think you might learn something from his experience??? Think about it.

And I remember reading something somewhere about the Chinese government recognizing the strengths of western boxing as a combatative method and teaching their military SAN DA/SAN SHOU, oh...about 80 years ago!! But again, this might not be enough for RD to recognize the merits of Boxing....

I'm sure you, RD, have a wider range of experience? Have you used your TCMA to cast out many 'boxers' from your school? Did you accept challenge matches against boxers?? I'm poking fun at you here, but hoping you might realize the short-sightlessness of your statements.

[SimonM]

99% of the san da, san shou, kickboxing .... videos posted on this forum show 99% of the fighters using techniques that resemble boxing as 99 % of their striking arsenal & in 99 % of the cases where the loser gets beat down it was because the loser attempted to fight a fight that he or she was not good at. hence boxing. it's bad enough that they couldn't use their own style but even worse that they couldn't properly use basic & common techniques which dominate the full contact SPORT.

Have you considered that, perhaps, properly trained TCMA looks a lot like boxing because that's how to throw good punches?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Have you considered that, perhaps, properly trained TCMA looks a lot like boxing because that's how to throw good punches?

EXACTLY! Why is this so hard for everyone to understand??

It's funny...if it was a known fact that boxing took it's tech from TCMA, no one would have a problem with it. But since it was developed independently, TCMA people can't acknowledge it's validity. So silly....

[SimonM]

I'm (technically) a TCMA person, I get it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you considered that, perhaps, properly trained TCMA looks a lot like boxing because that's how to throw good punches?

That's crazy talk from a glorified kick boxer !

[SimonM]

WHO TOLD YOU?!?!?

Oh, wait, nm.

[lkfmdc]

Have you considered that, perhaps, properly trained TCMA looks a lot like boxing because that's how to throw good punches?

you could refer to this post in the other thread

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=874952&postcount=38

;)

[SimonM]

Or, you know, the post where you say basically the same thing I said in this thread.

LOL the fact that you agree with my opinion doesn't make me less interested in expressing that opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing is, if you are gonna punch with gloves, you are gonna box.
Bare knuckle boxing looks a lot more like TMA than it does Modern Sport Boxing in many ways.
Short power and "impulse/kinetic" power oriented strikes don't work with gloves.
Even the light MMA ones still lend themselves to typical boxer punching.
Also, the 4 punches of boxing ( and their "off-shots") are also the basic punches of every other MA.

[lkfmdc]

Or, you know, the post where you say basically the same thing I said in this thread.

LOL the fact that you agree with my opinion doesn't make me less interested in expressing that opinion.

The important thing is that I SAID IT FIRST! ;)

:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are ridiculous, RD.

You should listen to what is being said here, instead of sounding like an idiot. Give it a shot sometime, see what happens.

My teacher loved boxing and even fought competitively in western boxing matches when it became popular in southern china. He won his weight division for Toi-San in the 40's. He went to Gong Muyhn (where fighters came from all over Canton/Guangdong) and represented his city, where he was victorious again. (kinda equivalent of winning for the five boroughs of NY type of thing).

When I first went to Toi san several years ago, I learned more about his boxing career, met his boxing coach and heard stories about his fights. The first two he lost to the same person, because he didn't train boxing rules and did not realize that the gloves neutralized many techniques. He began to train with a coach who is the still teaching CMA today in Toi-San. His name is Gong Gum Woon and he's the president of the Toi-San martial arts association.

Chan Tai-San loved grew to love boxing and excelled in the sport. He never really made a disctinction between boxing and CMA. Punching is punching..etc., etc. Personally, I don't really find any conflict in their offensive strategies at all. Defensively, there are some differences, I'll admit and you definately are hampered by gloves, but I believe the core skills are the same.

What you really must learn is how boxers train before makings such wacky statements, RD.

Boxing is good. Thinking that there is nothing to learn from it if you know CMA, is silly.

That is like saying that CMA has grappling and you can apply the same principles to the ground and beat BJJ. C'mon....

My teacher didn't just enjoy the sport, he recognized the strengths of boxing as a fighting art/science. This from a guy who started learning KF at 8 and didn't stop learning until his 50's. He wasn't interested in being a teacher at 30 and earning a living, he wanted to fight and learn to fight better. Do you think you might learn something from his experience??? Think about it.

And I remember reading something somewhere about the Chinese government recognizing the strengths of western boxing as a combatative method and teaching their military SAN DA/SAN SHOU, oh...about 80 years ago!! But again, this might not be enough for RD to recognize the merits of Boxing....

I'm sure you, RD, have a wider range of experience? Have you used your TCMA to cast out many 'boxers' from your school? Did you accept challenge matches against boxers?? I'm poking fun at you here, but hoping you might realize the short-sightlessness of your statements.

Reply]
So once again, the lama pai family is/are the only ones that MISSED the joke.....

But even more astounding is everyone ELSE got it, and replied appropriately. Even though you undoubtedly read those replies, and shuld have been clued in to the humor EVERYONE ELSE GOT, instead you come back with a huge long post trying to argue with me as if I had even the slightest sense of seriousness when I wrote that.

Nice job there sport.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And to further my rant, I do whole heartedly recognize the value of Western boxing. My father Boxed in the Military, and taught me from the time I was like 10. So I am vaugly familiiar with it.

Second, to BEAT a boxer with Kung Fu, you don't need to study for any great length, just enough to figure out the weaknesses (And Boxing is fairly limited and full of holes).

The danger of a Boxer is NOT his hands as everyone thinks, it is his footwork, and ability to acquire a superior position with that footwork.

You have to understand though, the boxer will be picking a range to strike from, thta is thier only tactical strategy. They don't ahve anything else.

They don't kick, or throw, and they are hardly used to such attacks in thier training or competitions. Also, thier foot work make them especially vulnerable to any sort of leg threading, hooking sweeping motions.

Taking them out IS literally as easy as my off the cuff joking post from before. You just have to get past thier footwork first.

Any of you so called "Fighters" should easily see this.

When is Boxing good to know? If you are a BJJ guy who needs some additional striking skills for dealing with BJJ trained stand up fighters.

Why? because it is vulnerable to take downs, and you WANT to go to the ground.

As to the Chinese doing Boxing EIGHTY YEARS AGO, who cares? That was 80 years ago. According to the MMA crowd everyone sucked 80 yeas ago, so why bring it up.

Oh, and speaking of the MMA crowd, when they "Box" they are not doing actual Boxing anyway. they need to "ADAPT" it because f both the threat, and desire to be taken down, dealing with kicks and other variables not in a Boxers relm.

In addition, a Greco/Roman Wrestler has never had any fear of a Boxer, so maybe it would be better to learn that instead.

[TenTigers]

there is more to boxing than their footwork-which is exceptional, btw. What I find to be most facinating, is boxing's evasive body movement. Duck, slip, bob and weave. I've seen boxers who've seemed cornered, evade and slip barrages of punches, and land their own blows.
Jab,cross,uppercut, hook, overhand-these are the basic angles of attack. When fighting toe to toe, the strikes are shortened up and the body is connected to generate power, by combining waist,pivoting of the stance, etc. All good. I don't think anyone can dissagree with that.
What I don't get is that how cme you don't see any of the long arm strikes thrown, such as sow, cup,gwa etc. (excluding aforementioned spinning backfist)

[lkfmdc]

so is just a long hook, you see it all the time

cup/kahp is an overhand, you see it all the time

the fact no one bothers with a motion like kwa/gwa should maybe tell you something

[TenTigers]

so is just a long hook, you see it all the time

cup/kahp is an overhand, you see it all the time

the fact no one bothers with a motion like kwa/gwa should maybe tell you something

so, basically, all they're missing is the silk pajamas?
Boy, that was easy!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is more to boxing than their footwork-which is exceptional, btw. What I find to be most facinating, is boxing's evasive body movement. Duck, slip, bob and weave. I've seen boxers who've seemed cornered, evade and slip barrages of punches, and land their own blows.
Jab,cross,uppercut, hook, overhand-these are the basic angles of attack. When fighting toe to toe, the strikes are shortened up and the body is connected to generate power, by combining waist,pivoting of the stance, etc. All good. I don't think anyone can dissagree with that.
What I don't get is that how cme you don't see any of the long arm strikes thrown, such as sow, cup,gwa etc. (excluding aforementioned spinning backfist)

Correct.


so, basically, all they're missing is the silk pajamas?
Boy, that was easy!

Correct again.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, they are Slippery S-o-b's, BUT once you can get them to bob, weave or slip, you can throw them easy too though. That type of motion is fantastic in a striking only enviroment, but it leavs them open for takedowns.

[MasterKiller]

so is just a long hook, you see it all the time

cup/kahp is an overhand, you see it all the time

the fact no one bothers with a motion like kwa/gwa should maybe tell you something

So then why is footwork so different? Shaolin footwork is nothing like modern sport fight footwork. I understand how fencing influenced the "dominate side" stance in CMA. And some of the static stances are similar, but just the idea of staying on the balls of your feet, for example, is completly incorrect within the framework of Shaolin stepping.

[TenTigers]

the problem arises when people who don't have a strong wrist structure (like me) and will experience wrist buckling when throwing a boxer's hook, unless wearing tape and wraps. (I just throw more elbows) But the fist position of sow choy allows me to generate far more power than my hook. Different ranges, I know.
I guess the solution is throw the elbow rather than the hook, and train for self-defense, and recognize that some people will never become pro fighters.
Many years ago, my TSD teacher told me that I shouldn't do pro fighting, as my facial skin was thin and I used to get cut up alot.
so I chose to use other methods to kill my baincells:p

[TenTigers]

Yes, they are Slippery S-o-b's, BUT once you can get them to bob, weave or slip, you can throw them easy too though. That type of motion is fantastic in a striking only enviroment, but it leavs them open for takedowns.
slips, ducks, bob n weave are all evasive head and body movements-which are also used in grappling to duck under and reverse many standing locks and chokes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So then why is footwork so different? Shaolin footwork is nothing like modern sport fight footwork. I understand how fencing influenced the "dominate side" stance in CMA. And some of the static stances are similar, but just the idea of staying on the balls of your feet, for example, is completly incorrect within the framework of Shaolin stepping.

Foot work isn't just about power generation and evasion, its about footing also, and the footing in modern day boxing is not an issue compared to the "streets" of China 300 years ago.

[Lucas]

So then why is footwork so different? Shaolin footwork is nothing like modern sport fight footwork. I understand how fencing influenced the "dominate side" stance in CMA. And some of the static stances are similar, but just the idea of staying on the balls of your feet, for example, is completly incorrect within the framework of Shaolin stepping.

I think that has a lot to do with the fact in shaolin traditional training, you are going to be aware of your footwork in regards to throws, as well as kicks, and the nesessity to be versitile and ready to respond/act quickly to those aspects.

where as in boxing your going to want to stay light and fast for your punches and tactful footwork for defense as well as setting up those attacks.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ross,
on the whole Kua thing, that type of power generation is used in specific conditions not really found in the Kick Boxer, or Boxers arena.

Also, it's not that these disciplines shaper various striking techniques, it is the way they are used and set up that changes things. The range and positioning plays a factor as well.

Fighters who start mixing disciplines end up not fighting like either (as we have seen in MMA). Something new, and personal rises from the marriage.

[lkfmdc]

So then why is footwork so different? Shaolin footwork is nothing like modern sport fight footwork. I understand how fencing influenced the "dominate side" stance in CMA. And some of the static stances are similar, but just the idea of staying on the balls of your feet, for example, is completly incorrect within the framework of Shaolin stepping.

Not all boxing is the same.... certainly not all fighting is the same.... I can tell you that when we "box" in our fights, some of it looks "weird" from a Western boxing stand point but if you realize our background is Lama Pai it makes perfect sense

Did you watch Fedor's last fight? Hard shots thrown, but not standard boxing by any stretch

Finally, old boxers (we are talking less than a 100 years now) were FLAT FOOTED. Footwork evolved....

Heck, the CMA we see today is not the old "box" footwork of the southern styles pre-Wong Yan Lam and Wong Fei Hung.... the footwork you see in CMA today is considered "updated" from the really imobile footwork they used to have!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Reply]
So once again, the lama pai family is/are the only ones that MISSED the joke.....

But even more astounding is everyone ELSE got it, and replied appropriately. Even though you undoubtedly read those replies, and shuld have been clued in to the humor EVERYONE ELSE GOT, instead you come back with a huge long post trying to argue with me as if I had even the slightest sense of seriousness when I wrote that.

Nice job there sport.

I guess it a case of the 'little boy who cried wolf'...

Your posts in general, are usually quite ridiculous, even when your have a synaptic **** and happen to actually stay ON topic...

I feel, from reading your posts, that you have an unrealistic sense of CMA. Period. No...not the posts about getting girls, losing girls, giving up girls, flying cars, aliens, secret motors or the cult you used to belong to.

I think you are a circus and a juggle....

I wish you still had those pics of you posted online....what happened to your site?


Oh, and I love when people feel the need to group people together in way to validate their opinions....

Besides, I really can't take a guy seriously, who has to write the word "reply" all the time, because he can't master a simple skill like, THE QUOTE FUNCTION! Or, you try to be soo cool that you just don't want to use it 'cause everyone gets on you about it. Tsk, tsk.

[lkfmdc]

I have Rd on "ignore" so I always miss the joke, ie the joke that is his advice ;)

[UmFu]

Lama Pai Sifu, you made some really good points regarding CMA & Boxing, and pretty much summed up my point better than I could. Btw thanks for the story about your Sifu Chan Tai San.

Lkfmdc wrote:


so is just a long hook, you see it all the time
cup/kahp is an overhand, you see it all the time

another good illustration of my point regarding similar fundamentals between CMA and boxing.

Sanjuro wrote:


Also, the 4 punches of boxing ( and their "off-shots") are also the basic punches of every other MA.

That’s what I’m talking about.


when i mentioned the "bridge" between boxing and CMA, i was seeking opinions on how good boxing skills added to a CMA fighter's arsenal IN THE RING could maybe open doors to other CMA techniques once in the pocket or during the bridge in CMA terms.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

slips, ducks, bob n weave are all evasive head and body movements-which are also used in grappling to duck under and reverse many standing locks and chokes.

Reply]
Yes, BUT in that arena, they have counters built in that take advantage of the enviroment. A Boxer will Bob, and Weave under the premiss that he is dealing with striking, not looking to setup and use it as a launch for a double leg.

The Boxer, who does not do double legs may bob, is focused on the opponents striking and how to turn the tables to land strikes of his own. In the process he leaves himself wide open for a take down....because one is just not a threat in his relm.

A grappler is using the SAME move, but he's looking to initiate a takedown from it, so he does it in a way that has him in a superior position for that.

Yes, they are using the same tool, but in totally different ways, and with totally different intended outcomes, and THAT changes things drastically.

You can set a Boxer up by evading his strike, and then shooting in for the take down because he is expecting the you to do something totally different with the familiar movements.

This gives the take down artist an advantage over the boxer because he is using the Boxers very own tools to exploit an area a Boxer does not even train for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

when i mentioned the "bridge" between boxing and CMA, i was seeking opinions on how good boxing skills added to a CMA fighter's arsenal IN THE RING could maybe open doors to other CMA techniques once in the pocket or during the bridge in CMA terms.

Yes, some of us know that you were talking about the ring...LOL
If there is one thing that CMA can also learn from western boxing is not to "chase" hands, as I see too many do.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are not supposed to Chase hands in CMA in the first place.

[TenTigers]

RD-all that makes sense, in the ring. Meaning, sure, a boxer won't expect your single leg takedown. Most chess players don't expect the right hook when they put me in check.
The problem is, in the street, you don't know that the guy facing you in a boxer's guard is not also the inter-collegiete greco-roman wrestling champ, etc
It is not that cut and dry-unless you are in the ring-and not doing MMA.

[Lucas]

/OT

Although it is universal across the board to chase tail.

/OT

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD-all that makes sense, in the ring. Meaning, sure, a boxer won't expect your single leg takedown. Most chess players don't expect the right hook when they put me in check.
The problem is, in the street, you don't know that the guy facing you in a boxer's guard is not also the inter-collegiete greco-roman wrestling champ, etc
It is not that cut and dry-unless you are in the ring-and not doing MMA.

Reply]
That is the point of CMA, and it's wide technical diversity and multi range strategies (Punch, Kick, Lock Throw)

[SimonM]

Oh, and speaking of the MMA crowd, when they "Box" they are not doing actual Boxing anyway. they need to "ADAPT" it because f both the threat, and desire to be taken down, dealing with kicks and other variables not in a Boxers relm.

In addition, a Greco/Roman Wrestler has never had any fear of a Boxer, so maybe it would be better to learn that instead.

Out of curiosity... have I been religated to the "mma crowd" now? After all, I support resistive drilling, cross training and tend to see my chosen core martial art (CMA) to be not that different, when push comes to shove, than many other martial arts.

Then again I don't really like Rorion Gracie because I take umbrage with some of what he says in IKF.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't know, where do you see yourself?

If what you describe is accurate, I would place you in the Old School TCMA camp more than Modern MMA.

Although, cross training really shouldn't be necessary outside of the whole learning your enemy aspect. It depends on what you mean by cross training, and what you consider it to be.

if you are doing lots of BJJ, Muy Thai or other popular MMA styles and feel you can't answer your fighting needs with your CMA, then you would probably be a Modern MMA in my book.

[TenTigers]

MMA is just a catchphrase. It's marketing at this point. I'm surprised nobody has copywrited (copywritten) the phrase. If you are doing all that then you are doing MMA.
Now all ya gotta do is change your sign.
It's not just ring or cage fighting. All MMA schools have people who want to fight in a ring and people who don't. Coach Ross, Tiger Shullman, etc. They all teach MMA but have a stable of ring fighters as well.

[Lucas]

I dont really see many differences between oldschool tcma and modern mma.

the only ones i see are the choices of techniques and training methods.

but look at many old tcma, even they have variations of techniques and training methods, often within the same region even!

just because some techs and conditioning methods are swapped around, doesnt really make it all that sperate.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I dont really see many differences between oldschool tcma and modern mma.

the only ones i see are the choices of techniques and training methods.

but look at many old tcma, even they have variations of techniques and training methods, often within the same region even!

just because some techs and conditioning methods are swapped around, doesnt really make it all that sperate.

Reply]
Agreed. In fact I have been saying this for ten years now.

[Lucas]

i read this board a lot, more than I post. Im a partial lurker.

but its funny because i'll see people debating points back and forth, but a lot of the time they are saying almost the same things, just not on the exact same page.

most people are feeling about the same way, but often times the expression of what ever message is trying to be put out there is not in sync with how others think, and then its always the little details everyone gets so nit picky about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are not supposed to Chase hands in CMA in the first place.

You correctly said SUPPOSE.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Another thing Western boxing can teach CMA - keep your chin down.

[David Jamieson]

don't know if it's beens aid, but hitting with the back side of the glove is a foul in boxing rules or other parts as well. Here's th rules of boxing for most jurisdictions. I think as you read them, you will see exactly why some cma style strikes are not allowed.

* You cannot hit below the belt, hold, trip, kick, headbutt, wrestle, bite, spit on, or push your opponent.
* You cannot hit with your head, shoulder, forearm, or elbow.
* You cannot hit with an open glove, the inside of the glove, the wrist, the backhand, or the side of the hand.
* You cannot punch your opponent's back, or the back of his head or neck (rabbit punch), or on the kidneys (kidney punch).
* You cannot throw a punch while holding on to the ropes to gain leverage.
* You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time, or duck so low that your head is below your opponent's belt line.
* When the referee breaks you from a clinch, you have to take a full step back; you cannot immediately hit your opponent--that's called "hitting on the break" and is illegal.
* You cannot spit out your mouthpiece on purpose to get a rest.
* If you score a knockdown of your opponent, you must go to the ****hest neutral corner while the referee makes the count.
* If you "floor" your opponent, you cannot hit him when he's on the canvas.
* A floored boxer has up to ten seconds to get back up on his feet before losing the bout by knockout.
* A boxer who is knocked down cannot be saved by the bell in any round, depending upon the local jurisdiction's rules.
* A boxer who is hit with an accidental low blow has up to five minutes to recover. If s/he cannot continue after five minutes, s/he is considered knocked out.
* If the foul results in an injury that causes the fight to end immediately, the boxer who committed the foul is disqualified.
* If the foul causes an injury but the bout continues, the referee orders the judges to deduct two points from the boxer who caused the injury.
* If an unintentional foul causes the bout to be stopped immediately, the bout is ruled a "no decision" if four rounds have not been fully completed. (If the bout was scheduled for four rounds, then three rounds must have been completed.) If four rounds have been completed, the judges' scorecards are tallied and the fighter who is ahead on points is awarded a technical decision. If the scores are even, it will be called a "technical draw."
* If a boxer is knocked out of the ring, he gets a count of 20 to get back in and on his feet. He cannot be assisted.
* In some jurisdictions the standing eight-count or the three knockdown rule also may be in effect.
* In other jurisdictions, only the referee can stop the bout.

[sanjuro_ronin]

don't know if it's beens aid, but hitting with the back side of the glove is a foul in boxing rules or other parts as well. Here's th rules of boxing for most jurisdictions. I think as you read them, you will see exactly why some cma style strikes are not allowed.

* You cannot hit below the belt, hold, trip, kick, headbutt, wrestle, bite, spit on, or push your opponent.
* You cannot hit with your head, shoulder, forearm, or elbow.
* You cannot hit with an open glove, the inside of the glove, the wrist, the backhand, or the side of the hand.
* You cannot punch your opponent's back, or the back of his head or neck (rabbit punch), or on the kidneys (kidney punch).
* You cannot throw a punch while holding on to the ropes to gain leverage.
* You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time, or duck so low that your head is below your opponent's belt line.
* When the referee breaks you from a clinch, you have to take a full step back; you cannot immediately hit your opponent--that's called "hitting on the break" and is illegal.
* You cannot spit out your mouthpiece on purpose to get a rest.
* If you score a knockdown of your opponent, you must go to the ****hest neutral corner while the referee makes the count.
* If you "floor" your opponent, you cannot hit him when he's on the canvas.
* A floored boxer has up to ten seconds to get back up on his feet before losing the bout by knockout.
* A boxer who is knocked down cannot be saved by the bell in any round, depending upon the local jurisdiction's rules.
* A boxer who is hit with an accidental low blow has up to five minutes to recover. If s/he cannot continue after five minutes, s/he is considered knocked out.
* If the foul results in an injury that causes the fight to end immediately, the boxer who committed the foul is disqualified.
* If the foul causes an injury but the bout continues, the referee orders the judges to deduct two points from the boxer who caused the injury.
* If an unintentional foul causes the bout to be stopped immediately, the bout is ruled a "no decision" if four rounds have not been fully completed. (If the bout was scheduled for four rounds, then three rounds must have been completed.) If four rounds have been completed, the judges' scorecards are tallied and the fighter who is ahead on points is awarded a technical decision. If the scores are even, it will be called a "technical draw."
* If a boxer is knocked out of the ring, he gets a count of 20 to get back in and on his feet. He cannot be assisted.
* In some jurisdictions the standing eight-count or the three knockdown rule also may be in effect.
* In other jurisdictions, only the referee can stop the bout.

I can't begin to count how many of those rules I have broken and have been broken on me, LOL !

[David Jamieson]

yup, guys break em all the time but the ref has to see it to call it or be advised by a judge who saw it, etc etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yup, guys break em all the time but the ref has to see it to call it or be advised by a judge who saw it, etc etc.

And then you get a warning...(pansy crap).
Fact is, there is no reason why CMA shouldn't compete and train western boxing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Maybe, but why bother? You'd have to become a Boxer to get anywhere, and that means disposing of 90% of your arsenal. Not to mention neglecting important training aspects, like take down defences and such.

You'd be better of fighting in K-1, Kuo Shou, San Shou and MMA

[Lucas]

I wonder who would do well with only cma against mike tyson in his prime.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe not, but why bother? You'd have to become a Boxer to get anywhere, and that means disposing of 90% of your arsenal. Not to mention neglecting important training aspects, like take down defences and such.

You'd be better of fighting in K-1, Kuo Shou, San Shou and MMA

All those competitions you mentioned?
All the fighters learned how to box.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wonder who would do well with only cma against mike tyson in his prime.

Don't forget, Mike bites too !
:D

[Lucas]

Don't forget, Mike bites too !
:D

thats what we refer to as 'teh deadly' round heah

he learned the leet skeelz in prison

[Lucas]

learning the inside technical game of boxing can only have positive results, IMO

[SimonM]

Lucas just remember that RD opposes anything like crosstraining as unpure.

[Lucas]

I'll bet if you could go back hundreds of years to the time when masters were sharing with shaolin, and you had a chinese guys how up with modern western boxing, the shaolin men would have been very pleased to learn the methods.

thats just my opinion though.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, that is not true, I am a mixed bag of tricks more than anything myself.

What I oppose is seeking skills from styles other than your own, When YOUR style already covers that ground.

For example, I see no need to go to Boxing for striking, or Judo for throwing, because that is all in my CMA from the start.

However, if I wanted to ground fight, I'd be looking into BJJ or Greco Roman wrestling before CMA, because CMA generally avoids those ranges due to it's focus on reality fighting, rather then the cozy protected arena of the Sports platforms.

Now, if your TCMA teacher sux, and you can't get the skills from him, then you really have to look for another source of the technologies.

[Lucas]

ill agree that for striking you dont need to stray from cma.

to fight the mariad of fighters out there however, some study into the arts they excell in would be wise. 'know your enemy' and such.

thus boxing would be a good place to start studying how a lot of these guys are going to use their hands, feet, and cores

so in this case, this would primarily be just for sport study, as you can never know what you will run into in real life. though in america, a lot of people will box you, or at least give their rendition of boxing.

from what ive noticed in the few fights ive been in outside and the multitude ive seen, a lot of guys think they are boxers.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I'll bet if you could go back hundreds of years to the time when masters were sharing with shaolin, and you had a chinese guys how up with modern western boxing, the shaolin men would have been very pleased to learn the methods.

thats just my opinion though.

Reply]
You are probably correct. They would likely have formified Boxing and made it some sort of super secret system and added a bunch of mystical Qi gong to it as well.

[Lucas]

Reply]
You are probably correct. They would likely have formified Boxing and made it some sort of super secret system and added a bunch of mystical Qi gong to it as well.

lol, no doubt on that one man. no doubt.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

ill agree that for striking you dont need to stray from cma.

to fight the mariad of fighters out there however, some study into the arts they excell in would be wise. 'know your enemy' and such.

thus boxing would be a good place to start studying how a lot of these guys are going to use their hands, feet, and cores

so in this case, this would primarily be just for sport study, as you can never know what you will run into in real life. though in america, a lot of people will box you, or at least give their rendition of boxing.

from what ive noticed in the few fights ive been in outside and the multitude ive seen, a lot of guys think they are boxers.

Reply]
That is because every Father teaches thier sons to box, even if it is just unintentionally through "Play fighting" when they are young.

[Lucas]

Reply]
That is because every Father teaches thier sons to box, even if it is just unintentionally through "Play fighting" when they are young.

now that you mention it, ya.

i suppose its an american cultural thing. (other countries im sure as well)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You could probably add basic wresting in the mix too.

[TenTigers]

well, if you practiced entering and retreating and side stepping footwork, duck, slip, bob n weave, and good short strikes, then you might not see a need to learn boxing.
Skillz is skillz

[SimonM]

However, if I wanted to ground fight, I'd be looking into BJJ or Greco Roman wrestling before CMA, because CMA generally avoids those ranges due to it's focus on reality fighting, rather then the cozy protected arena of the Sports platforms.

Don't tell me you still buy into the whole "ground fighting is unrealistic on the street" bit of nonsense. I've executed text-book perfect shoulder throws slamming an opponent into cement and, because the opponent was a really tough mother****er, it barely even stunned him for a second... hardly a fight stopper. So, yes, there is a place for groundfighting in reality fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I did all that kind of stuff with my Dad when I was a Kid. He did English Boxing though. It's different than todays Boxing. It uses a kind of goofy guard position with the palms facing back. The guard is not held like you see today either, it is in constant motion moving in small vertical circles.

[KC Elbows]

However, if I wanted to ground fight, I'd be looking into BJJ or Greco Roman wrestling before CMA, because CMA generally avoids those ranges due to it's focus on reality fighting, rather then the cozy protected arena of the Sports platforms.


Actually, I suspect the avoidance of ground fighting is for the same reason sitting or lying on the bare earth or wearing outside shoes inside is a cultural no-no there.

Half the year, winds from the West carry dust from out of the Tarim Basin across China. This phenomenon is what causes the loess deposits in China. The downside to this is the same dust carries some fairly nasty diseases as well. After a rain in some parts of China, it is fairly obvious that the mud/silt one is walking on is unlike that found back here.

This is also possibly a source for the idea that standing in the wind, regardless of whether it is cold or not, is a good way to get sick: half the year, this is absolutely true there.

Anyway, total sidebar, sorry.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Don't tell me you still buy into the whole "ground fighting is unrealistic on the street" bit of nonsense. I've executed text-book perfect shoulder throws slamming an opponent into cement and, because the opponent was a really tough mother****er, it barely even stunned him for a second... hardly a fight stopper. So, yes, there is a place for groundfighting in reality fighting.

Reply]
I like the CMA thoughts, put them down, and only go down enough to inflict pounding damage, but not so much as to lose your mobility and ability to escape.

The whole snuggle on the ground while others pumble you as you try to get position for an armbar is just not a good idea in the real world.

just enough to escape and get mobile again is the ticket. Your time is better spent on takedown defenses.

[SimonM]

Since I just had that conversation at length today with SR I'll just post a link to the first post in the conversation and you can read through that thread rather than getting into a semantic argument over whether or not groundfighting is important... especially since my argument was ground = not good place to be so groundfighting = important. (https://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875308&postcount=29)

[UmFu]

it's not about losing any of your arsenal, it's about adding to your arsenal. it's not CMA vs. boxing, it's how does CMA relate & work with boxing in a full contact environment.

if your going to box or resemble boxing in a full contact event, which most people seem to be doing, along with your kicking, grappling....there may be a "bridge" for more of your CMA technques to cross over into the event.

[TenTigers]

Reply]
I like the CMA thoughts, put them down, and only go down enough to inflict pounding damage, but not so much as to lose your mobility and ability to escape.

The whole snuggle on the ground while others pumble you as you try to get position for an armbar is just not a good idea in the real world.

just enough to escape and get mobile again is the ticket. Your time is better spent on takedown defenses.

I don't like it either. But I do it. I do it because I know that MMA is a household word. You see kids wearing Tapout t-shirts in the malls. Every Tom Di(k, or Harry will try to take you down and GnP.
If I do not, I am doing a disservice to myself, as well as my students, by not preparing them for the types of people they will encounter.

when was the last case of cowpox, polio,etc?
Get it?

[Lucas]

I don't like it either. But I do it. I do it because I know that MMA is a household word. You see kids wearing Tapout t-shirts in the malls. Every Tom Di(k, or Harry will try to take you down and GnP.
If I do not, I am doing a disservice to myself, as well as my students, by not preparing them for the types of people they will encounter.

when was the last case of cowpox, polio,etc?
Get it?

i'd like to give a BOOYAA!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't like it either. But I do it. I do it because I know that MMA is a household word. You see kids wearing Tapout t-shirts in the malls. Every Tom Di(k, or Harry will try to take you down and GnP.
If I do not, I am doing a disservice to myself, as well as my students, by not preparing them for the types of people they will encounter.

when was the last case of cowpox, polio,etc?
Get it?

Reply]
I get it, but when the Strike Force champ got his belt without ever going down to the ground, then maybe we must consider anti take down skills are vastly more important than wrassl'n on the ground.

That said, the Chinese methods are more than adequate.

Although there are some Southeast Asian Monkey styles that would wreak absolute havoc on the BJJ methodology, while staying in the frame work of my Chinese systems, so i might cross train in that.

[TenTigers]

Reply]
I get it, but when the Strike Force champ got his belt without ever going down to the ground, then maybe we must consider anti take down skills are vastly more important than wrassl'n on the ground.

That said, the Chinese methods are more than adequate.

Although there are some Southeast Asian Monkey styles that would wreak absolute havoc on the BJJ methodology, while staying in the frame work of my Chinese systems, so i might cross train in that.
Not vastly more important-but important nonetheless. A much needed skill as well.
And many Chinese styles do imploy ground grappling, not much different than Ne-Waza.
But, if you haven't been taught it,(whether it isn't in your system, or just that your teacher didn't teach it) there is nothing wrong with going out and learning it, so then now it will be in your teaching, and your students, and your students' students will have it. This is evolution.
So when people ask if Hung-Ga has groundfighting, I can say,
"My Hung-Ga does."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Not really. You will have a Hung gar system, AND a grapling system, but the grappling being from a totally different discipline would not be Hung gar at all.

To say it is just further confuses the muddles mess of styles and identity we already have. It's not entirely honest either.

When i get to the Monkey stuff in the Kunato I am working on, I'm not going to say my Tai tzu has "Monkey" in it, and then teach the Kuntao Monkey.

I am going to say THIS is the Tai Tzu, and THAT is the Monkey from Kuntao, and this OTHER THING is Graco Roman wrestling, and THIS is how I combine these disciplines.

[Lucas]

and thats why people develop their own styles.

so they can take everything they have learned in their life, and put it all under one roof.

so many styles used to be seperately distinguished styles till a man decided to combine the material and give it a fresh new name.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Of course.

Many systems are distilled down from individuals that learned a bunch of different things and created a new methodology using the most applicable of various technologies they have picked up over time as well.

[Scott R. Brown]

It should also be kept in mind that falling (or getting thrown) onto the concrete or other relatively flat surface, while unpleasant, is not the same thing as getting thrown out in a more natural environment. A text book perfect landing would not necessarily keep one from being seriously injured.

All it takes is one small protruding stone, or a tree, or some other obstacle to cause a serious break, injury or stunning.

In my teens I participated in an outdoor demonstration. We put mats on the grass. I was asked to demonstrate a back fall. On a flat surface it would have been a relatively uneventful action, however, the ground had a very slight convex shape to it, one that would not ordinarily be noticed until your back hit it an instant before your hands did. It knocked the wind out of me and I could barely stand up. After that I realized the class work is not the same thing as training in nature.

I would not want to get thrown or grapple in a river bed!:eek:

[NJM]

it's not about losing any of your arsenal, it's about adding to your arsenal. it's not CMA vs. boxing, it's how does CMA relate & work with boxing in a full contact environment.

if your going to box or resemble boxing in a full contact event, which most people seem to be doing, along with your kicking, grappling....there may be a "bridge" for more of your CMA technques to cross over into the event.

Are you talking about mainly boxing and kickboxing competitions or actual Sanda/Sanshou competitions?

[UmFu]

Are you talking about mainly boxing and kickboxing competitions or actual Sanda/Sanshou competitions?

not in boxing arena, but in kickboxing, full contact, lei tai, sanda, sanshou.....