Training 'shen'

[MasterKiller]

The ARMY, specifically, uses BJJ as the base of it's combatives program not because BJJ is necessarily 'street lethal' in combat, but because the ARMY believes soldiers practicing at full strength against resisting opponents helps keep them aggressive, competitive, and mentally prepared for combat.

"Shen" is supposed to be part of traditional training, one of the three jewels of Chinese kung fu. In civilian life, unless you are hungry, deprived, or depraved, there isn't much to spur you into honing a killer mindset. Training "kill" techniques doesn't necessarily also develop your mentality to kill, or even to defend yourself aggressively.

With that in mind, are there any other methods you can use to help instill 'intent' into your practice?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The ARMY, specifically, uses BJJ as the base of it's combatives program not because BJJ is necessarily 'street lethal' in combat, but because the ARMY believes soldiers practicing at full strength against resisting opponents helps keep them aggressive, competitive, and mentally prepared for combat.

"Shen" is supposed to be part of traditional training, one of the three jewels of Chinese kung fu. In civilian life, unless you are hungry, deprived, or depraved, there isn't much to spur you into honing a killer mindset. Training "kill" techniques doesn't necessarily also develop your mentality to kill, or even to defend yourself aggressively.

With that in mind, are there any other methods you can use to help instill 'intent' into your practice?

Reality based scenario training is SUPPOSED to develop this, in a "civilized" manner.
It tends not to do that, but it does make one THINK it does.
Intent is a tricky thing, it is different things to different people/systems.
Is it a "killer instinct"?
Is it the ability to do what must be done, regardless?
Is it doing, period ?
Is it the difference between sport and life threating combat?
Probably all of the above in one way or another.

Regardless, it is something that few have and even fewer can develop if they don't "have" it.

Everyone is a potential killer under the right circumstances, but how many train with the knowledge that that WILL kill?

[SPJ]

I guess NOTHING may prepare or ready you for the killing in the battlefield.

--

however, in terms of MA practice;

1. the spirits of a tiger mostly mimicked:

ferocity, tenacity,--

2. the spirits of a leopard;

alertness, speed, accuracy,

3. the spirits of a snake;

evasive, single blow/strike,--

--

on and on.

:D

[Old Noob]

There was an ex-Army Ranger, David Grossman, who became a psychologist and wrote a book called "On Killing." It's been a while since I've read it but his thesis was that normal humans are exceedingly reluctant to kill another human but that modern military training programs had found a way to overcome that reluctance to some degree. He provides lots of examples. It's worth a read and is guaranteed to get you lots of funny looks from folks on public transportation.

[Lucas]

Training with the intent that you MAY have to MDK someone is far different than training with the knowledge and belief that you KNOW you will be going into an invironment where you will likey be doing just that.


its similar to training in your school, only sparring your buddies, doing forms and conditioning and thats it, vs training to go into the cage in a few months against someone who wants to beat you down for the win.

completely different degrees of course, yet along the same lines of intentional utilization.

[Ray Pina]

Without a doubt one of my greatest martial art lessons came from bashing a Brook Trout over the head with a stone. Seriously.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember the first time I felt fear, real fear, not they type you get at a roller coaster or parachute jumping for the first time or when you knwo you are gonna get into a fight, nope none of that.
I was 15, I was living in Portugal and it was night time ( I had been doing MA since 8 at that time BTW), I was with a group 3 guys a 2 girls, just walking when an old lady wlaks by and one of my friends starts making spooky noises to scare her, I keep walking and in about 5 seconds he and another run by me, I look back and met with a ***** slap to end all ***** slaps and get grabbed by the throat.
It seems the son of the old GYPSY lady didn't think it was funny and all I can say was "it wasn't me", now, I don't know why he did it but he takes out a knife and puts against my throat and (thank goodness) his mom (old lady) comes up and says it wasn't me it was the guy in the white jacket.
He looks around and drops me and they both leave.
A choice of clothing would have gutted me.
I never felt fear tell that moment, that cold, sweat down your back, knwo you are gonna die kind of fear.
Never felt it since then, not bouncing, not in competition and not in the military.
I use it, I use that memory, don't think I ever will forget it.
I saw intent that night, I looked into its eyes and smelled its breath.

Its a whole different ball game.

[Ray Pina]

I experienced something like that down here, twice, and it has mellowed me out a lot. I have no desire to fight anyone in civilian life outside of a competitive context. Some people place no value on life. I want to live and live well and long.

[Ray Pina]

On Killing.... great book.

[Ray Pina]

You're a loser if you've had the forum tell you to slow down and wait 6 more seconds to post ... as I just did.

[Old Noob]

You're a loser if you've had the forum tell you to slow down and wait 6 more seconds to post ... as I just did.

It just means that your forum fu is getting faster. Happened to me today too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I experienced something like that down here, twice, and it has mellowed me out a lot. I have no desire to fight anyone in civilian life outside of a competitive context. Some people place no value on life. I want to live and live well and long.

A sad statement Bro, but true, some people will just as soon kill you as look at you.

[Lucas]

i hate to bring it all back to the batman....but

alfred said it best.

some men just want to watch the world burn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i hate to bring it all back to the batman....but

alfred said it best.

some men just want to watch the world burn.

Yes, indeed.
Too many...

Now, as for this thread, how does one train this?
Outside of "jason bourne training" ?
LOL
If its not in you, it just isn't ( outside extraordinary circumstances)
Some TMA advocate the use of the "reptilian" brain or the "c" -back to activate this intent or proper mindset.
And I have seen it work in some cases, and fail miserably in the majority of other cases.

[TenTigers]

I think SPJ wa son track about the Five Animals teaching the mindsets associated with each animal. We do it a bit differently. I have spoken on this before, but I will repeat breifly:
Dragon- PC version says,"Indomitable Spirit" My version is more like this-
picture the guy you punch square in the mouth, he spits a bloody tooth on the floor and then smiling with blood trickling down his chin, sez, "C'mere! Come get some." or Jack Nicholson in The Shining-"Heeeere's Johnny!" The spirit is "Happy" but not jovial, more like the ability to take your strikes and take a step foward. Saamjien/Sanchin teaches this mindset

Tiger-Angry-more like aggressive and explosive,down yer throat

Leopard-sneaky, cunning, crafty, dodgy,stick and move, then explode

Snake-cold-blooded, insensitive, focused on the opponent, seeing him not as a human with feelings, and pain, but as an objetc that is to be destroyed-ruthless.

Crane-calm, serene-more like grace under pressure, in control of his emotions, focused
All these 'Five Feelings" come together as one to form the mindset. They are parts to a whole.

Combine that with contact drills, contact conditioning, and pushing yourself to fight even when the mind wants to stop. Add into that adrenal stress conditioning, pressure testing, and technique that is based on a nonstop onslaught, barrage type fighting rather than an exchange, and you get an idea of how our Hung-Ga attempts to arrive at this mindset.

[greendragon]

I get this rubber like red dragon that starts inside me the size of a pin head then grows fast to envelope my entire body. Then I look around at the messed up guys on the ground and decide to get away before the cops come.
So I might be crazy, but may be dangerous. I feel happy, not remorseful.

[TenTigers]

does it look like this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YWqCReOXjZM&feature=related

[bakxierboxer]

I get this rubber like red dragon......

"Red Rubber Ball
( The Cyrkle )

I should have known you'd bid me farewell
There's a lesson to be learned from this and I learned it very well
Now I know you're not the only starfish in the sea
If I never hear your name again, it's all the same to me

And I think it's gonna be all right
Yeah, the worst is over now
The mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball"

etc......

(actually, perhaps, the "Anti-Shen"?)

[mantis108]

The ARMY, specifically, uses BJJ as the base of it's combatives program not because BJJ is necessarily 'street lethal' in combat, but because the ARMY believes soldiers practicing at full strength against resisting opponents helps keep them aggressive, competitive, and mentally prepared for combat.

BJJ is no doubt chosen for the no non sense approach that it offers. It managed to convince the world that its versatility (Gi, No Gi, Vale Tudo, and Street) is most suitable for most hand to hand combat situation.


"Shen" is supposed to be part of traditional training, one of the three jewels of Chinese kung fu. In civilian life, unless you are hungry, deprived, or depraved, there isn't much to spur you into honing a killer mindset. Training "kill" techniques doesn't necessarily also develop your mentality to kill, or even to defend yourself aggressively.

Jing, Qi and Shen are 3 treasures from the Daoist perspective. Philosophically speaking they are metaphysical entities. Kung Fu adopted them along with Daoist meditation techniques. So technically, when taking about worldly matters such as killing, it's Xin (mind or heart). In terms of human nature, Xin is the substance, Yi (intent) is the function of Xin. So Sha Xin is the idea of killing. The intention or the concept (leading to action) of killing is Sha Yi. The idea of Kung Fu or martial arts for that matter as a tool for self perfection not necessarily self preservation is to transcend human nature to human being. One doesn't need to develop mentality to kill. It has always been within human nature to kill. It is a matter of the trigger. But as human being, it is not logical or reasonable to kill in most circumstances. The idea of training Kung Fu is to subdue that very aspect of human nature at the very least.


With that in mind, are there any other methods you can use to help instill 'intent' into your practice?

Simply put, return to human nature. But then that's devolution not evolution. It's a choice between becoming animal or being human. So...

Mantis108

[greendragon]

Everyone knows BJJ is only good for one on one. This would make it almost useless to military combat training. Something like Philipino KunTao would be more suited.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone knows BJJ is only good for one on one. This would make it almost useless to military combat training. Something like Philipino KunTao would be more suited.

Correct, luckly the US Army and its divisions like the rangers, special forces and such, as well as the marines and navy spec ops, aren't really into military combat training so its just fine for them.
:D

[bakxierboxer]

Correct, luckly the US Army and its divisions like the rangers, special forces and such, as well as the marines and navy spec ops, aren't really into military combat training so its just fine for them.
:D

Now, all you gotta do is tell the truth about how you REALLY got signed up because that ever-so-friendly Recruiter was able to convince you that you were gonna get "Snooper" training.

:D :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, all you gotta do is tell the truth about how you REALLY got signed up because that ever-so-friendly Recruiter was able to convince you that you were gonna get "Snooper" training.

:D :D

You know...tell some people a secret and it seems that the word "secret" loses all meaning !
:p

[bakxierboxer]

You know...tell some people a secret and it seems that the word "secret" loses all meaning !
:p

The Beatles
"Listen,
Do you want to know a secret?,
Do you promise not to tell?, whoa oh, oh."

Do you think that, in this newer world ("AB" or "After Beatles"), this means that the idea of a "close friendship" probably needs to be redefined when we're talking about the fellow "right next door"? (in the next country over)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Beatles
"Listen,
Do you want to know a secret?,
Do you promise not to tell?, whoa oh, oh."

Do you think that, in this newer world ("AB" or "After Beatles"), this means that the idea of a "close friendship" probably needs to be redefined when we're talking about the fellow "right next door"? (in the next country over)

Actually, the internet has made our neighbourhood a lot closer, with all the good and bad that comes with that.
Sure we have the no-name a-holes that try to ruin it for everyone, but more often than not, here we are thousands of miles away, exchange views and ideas and building a friendship of sorts.
Way cool.

[bakxierboxer]

Actually, the internet has made our neighbourhood a lot closer, with all the good and bad that comes with that.

[stickler mode=OFF]
In the name of "international friendship", I will refrain (for a change) from offering a "better phrased" version of what you wrote. :D
[/stickler mode=ON]


Sure we have the no-name a-holes that try to ruin it for everyone, but more often than not, here we are thousands of miles away, exchange views and ideas and building a friendship of sorts.
Way cool.

Yah... some of 'em have emerged on that new board.
Definitely cool... and agreeably so, at that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[stickler mode=OFF]
In the name of "international friendship", I will refrain (for a change) from offering a "better phrased" version of what you wrote.
[/stickler mode=ON]

LOL, grazie !

[bakxierboxer]

LOL, grazie !

Youse is welcome! :D
(although being a "creature of habit" (not all of which are "socially acceptable") I will not endeavor to make any promises for the future) :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Training a wrestling system (eg: JJ) as part of military training is an ancient and well-thought-out approach.

It's based on the assumption that the worst position to be in on the battlefield is on your back. Very easy to be shot, stabbed or stepped on from that position.

PS: Just put that book on hold, going to give it a read. Already getting funny looks from my co-workers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training a wrestling system (eg: JJ) as part of military training is an ancient and well-thought-out approach.

It's based on the assumption that the worst position to be in on the battlefield is on your back. Very easy to be shot, stabbed or stepped on from that position.

PS: Just put that book on hold, going to give it a read. Already getting funny looks from my co-workers.

I would argue that the worse possible place is on the ground with your BACK to the enemy (turtle), at least on your back you can see and defend.

[SimonM]

Granted.

<Need to make the post longer, this should do it.>

[sanjuro_ronin]

Granted.

<Need to make the post longer, this should do it.>

While being on the ground is never the place to be, it can be argued that, in the case of more than one attacker, being on your back, with one of them in your guard is not such a bad place, read: Shield.

[SimonM]

One good reason to train how to pass guard and take mount as fast as possible.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One good reason to train how to pass guard and take mount as fast as possible.

It can be argued (argumentive today, aren't I ?) that, being in the mount VS multiple attacker is more dangerous, sure you have the advantage over one of them, but your back is exposed and you are vulnerable to getting kicked in the face.

[SimonM]

Still better off than being in guard when facing multiple attackers since you have the potential to quickly incapacitate the guy you are sitting on and get up in a hurry. In guard your back and face are still exposed and you have mobility restrictions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Still better off than being in guard when facing multiple attackers since you have the potential to quickly incapacitate the guy you are sitting on and get up in a hurry. In guard your back and face are still exposed and you have mobility restrictions.

One can argue (LOL!), that is not the case, you say that you can quickly incapcitate from the mount?
How so?
Chokes take time and leave you vulnerable.
The GnP takes time and while you are GnP'ing you are not watching your back.
Going for a sub takes time and commitment of all your tools....
In the guard your back is less exposed, after all, its on the ground.

[SimonM]

GnP HARDER!

Seriously you don't need a knockout, daze the guy enough to take the fight out of him and move on. Or, alternatively, stab.

[sanjuro_ronin]

GnP HARDER!

Seriously you don't need a knockout, daze the guy enough to take the fight out of him and move on. Or, alternatively, stab.

hey, you didn;t mention weapons !
It can be argued that, with a knife for example, that being on our backs, with the attacker in the guard, is a better place to stab him and still see what is going on, then we can filet him and maybe use a limb as a weapon.
:D

[SimonM]

Now that's just silly. I'm calling shennanigans on that one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that's just silly. I'm calling shennanigans on that one.

Would you believe that you can rip through his skull with your ***** from the triangle?

[SimonM]

Not a mental image I really want just before lunch time. Thanks SR!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not a mental image I really want just before lunch time. Thanks SR!

Anytime, here is an appetizer:

[SimonM]

I'm at work. Can't view hottie pictures. :s

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm at work. Can't view hottie pictures. :s

G rated bro, don't worry.

[SimonM]

LOL, good one.

[TaichiMantis]

I don't think a person would know until he/she got to that "kill or be killed" level of fear...and not many of us will ever get there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think a person would know until he/she got to that "kill or be killed" level of fear...and not many of us will ever get there.

Quite correct.

[Eric Olson]

Shen/Sun isn't killer instinct. Its usually referred to as Sha Chi/Saat Hei, meaning a "killing air." Shen is a more abstract and metaphysical concept like the western notion of a soul or spirit.

EO