where to look to read the attacker's intent early

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guys!

What is the definition of intent in the internal arts?

How do you guys in the internal arts train "intent"?

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?

[Mulong]

Are you referring the notion of yi; if so, when you translate the ideogram for yi you are referring to the notion of thought, but commonly refer to as intent?

Within neijia (internal family) style, intent is usually associated with the flow of qi, i.e., focusing on the projection of energy.

Concerning your last questions; it isn’t about your opponent’s intent, but yours.

[kung fu fighter]

I guess what i am asking is, how do you read an attacker's yi intention before it materializes physically?

Where Do you guys train to look at on the attacker's body to perceive his intent? his eyes? shoulders?

[TenTigers]

if you are trying to read his intent, then you are playing a waiting game. In fighting, it can be anyone's day. One misplaced move, one flick of the finger can take your eye, anyone can win, anyone can lose. You move first, I must land first. My intent must be stronger than yours, no matter what. All action is 99.9% intent.

[kung fu fighter]

How does one train mushin?

[LSWCTN1]

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?

if you are intent on attacking, you will do it anyway, whether or not they are going to attack you

if by physical movement you mean a strike then it would depend on the situation, but as i mentioned in the wing chun forum, one word answers like 'yeah' and 'what' are usually a tell tale give away. also if their body tenses up you can almost always tell that its on.

other ways to distinguish that confrontation is about to occur are when they walk towards you with a purposefull walk, or when they start to puff their chest out

in regard to mushin, or perhaps nim lik, i am not sure whether you can read someone elses intentions anymore than you could ordinarily - it is something that takes a long, long time to master - and Im not there yet:D

[thailandgary]

This is a part of training where you need someone to help you to understand it. a lot of people look at it in different ways. My personal training was where you put yourself into the other person's mind long enough to feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them. I don't know if I can explain this well, it took a very long time to learn and it is just natural now. I try to teach this in detail to my class every year when I return to the United States . Relaxation is also the key.

[thailandgary]

There is something else I would like to share with you.
this is what we were taught to learn intent.

An eye for his eyes ! his eyes are the window to his mind. Learn to read their intentions. See the strike before it is delivered.
your other eye is for his feet. his feet will move before his hands.
Keep your hands aimed at his eyes.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

There is something else I would like to share with you.
this is what we were taught to learn intent.

An eye for his eyes ! his eyes are the window to his mind. Learn to read their intentions. See the strike before it is delivered.
your other eye is for his feet. his feet will move before his hands.
Keep your hands aimed at his eyes.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I don't think you have time to 'learn' to read your opponents intentions by looking at his eyes. Are you talking about competitive sport, or street fighting? Besides, and experienced fighter is not going to 'give himself away' so quickly. We train to be deceptive and not to telegraph, no?

And by the time you notice my feet moving, it'll be too late. Are you suggesting that you are going to watch my feet, see them move and then launch your counter-offensive??

Try watching a person's shoulders - it's pretty hard to launch any technique without moving them. They dip, they raise, they pull forward and back, etc. The feet? Not a good idea. They won't tell you what type of technique I'll be throwing, only that one is coming, NOW! But not going to really help you defensively.

Peace

[sanjuro_ronin]

The typical **** causer is easy to read and take out, very little point in training to "read" an open book.
Many fighters that are breed in the "hit first" doctrine are taught to "mask" their intent.
Fact is, reading someone that wants to **** you up and knows how to do it is not easy and can be virtually impossible.
Best to try to read the "signs" rather than the intent.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

This is a part of training where you need someone to help you to understand it. a lot of people look at it in different ways. My personal training was where you put yourself into the other person's mind long enough to feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them. I don't know if I can explain this well, it took a very long time to learn and it is just natural now. I try to teach this in detail to my class every year when I return to the United States . Relaxation is also the key.

And I'm sorry - that sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. Are you serious? And when does all this 'personality transference' take place? When the guy starts hitting you or after you fall on the floor?

It's bull**** like this that give TCMA a bad name...

Gary, I enjoyed watching some of your clips and it seems like you have had some decent training and a grasp of some concepts...but who are you trying to kid here...or do you actually believe that?? And please don't share all your military experiences with us again or talk about where you lived/live....I could live in a third world country as well and visit the states once a year. I don't think it would make me a better martial artist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I'm sorry - that sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. Are you serious? And when does all this 'personality transference' take place? When the guy starts hitting you or after you fall on the floor?

It's bull**** like this that give TCMA a bad name...

Gary, I enjoyed watching some of your clips and it seems like you have had some decent training and a grasp of some concepts...but who are you trying to kid here...or do you actually believe that?? And please don't share all your military experiences with us again or talk about where you lived/live....I could live in a third world country as well and visit the states once a year. I don't think it would make me a better martial artist.

There is merit to putting yourself in shoes shoes/mindset in training, I don't think you have the time in the ring, much less in combat.

[monji112000]

There is merit to putting yourself in shoes shoes/mindset in training, I don't think you have the time in the ring, much less in combat.

so how long does it take when your in training to "feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them."

Does this training come with a decoder ring? :P I get what you mean about putting yourself in their shoes SJ, but telepathically knowing what they will do is out of my area of knowledge. Do I need a special uniform or chi development for this method? do the planets need to align correctly?

allot of people telegraph with their eyes. others can tell you one thing and do another. I have heard about watching shoulders, and watching the legs can be a very bad idea. One big reason is you miss the hands.

All of the ways people say to tell how someone is attacking you must be practiced, not just a few times... its not easy ..;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

so how long does it take when your in training to "feel their intent towards you. With that , you become them for an instant and you see how they will attack you and you are there before them."

about 23 minutes and 35 seconds.


Does this training come with a decoder ring?

Yes, yes it does.
Year's supply of rubber too !


I get what you mean about putting yourself in their shoes SJ, but telepathically knowing what they will do is out of my area of knowledge. Do I need a special uniform or chi development for this method? do the planets need to align correctly?

allot of people telegraph with their eyes. others can tell you one thing and do another. I have heard about watching shoulders, and watching the legs can be a very bad idea. One big reason is you miss the hands.

All of the ways people say to tell how someone is attacking you must be practiced, not just a few times... its not easy ..

Actually, putting yourself in their shoes with the correct intent ( to do bodly harm) allows you to understand the best way to get at your victim, and the worse things he can do/try to defend himself, how he invites and attack, etc.

Nothing mystical about it.

You can't always read intent, it becomes more a matter of perception than reading, but you can read the signs that lead up to an attack.

[TenTigers]

if you are "looking at the eyes and the feet at the same time' you are using peripheral vision. You take in the entire body as a gestalt. If I look at your eyes, I can still see your whole body. this is part of connecting.

Being in your opponent's head is making a connection, feeling not only his intent, but his rhythm, initial movement.(this should be a quick, momentary thing) Of course, this is why we also practice being deceptive and broken rhythm.

Praticing intercepting intent is like wild west gunfighting, or two samurai (or kendoka)facing each other. You wait motionless, you try to connect, and as soon as he initiates his attack, you strike hard and fast.

these are not solutions, simply tools. Parts of a whole.
"Black Tiger Steals the Heart" is how we say it in Hung-Ga.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

if you are "looking at the eyes and the feet at the same time' you are using peripheral vision. You take in the entire body as a gestalt. If I look at your eyes, I can still see your whole body. this is part of connecting.



How exactly are you going to get in your opponents head when you are out at a bar and some beef starts and someone swings? Or when I guy comes up behind you with a weapon? C'mon...how much time do you think you have to act? How long do you want to wait to 'get into his head?'

Talk to people who train for realistic self defense situations. Guys like Peyton Quinn who teach just this very concept...You don't have time to figure out the guys true intent. You assess the situation and You decide what your actions will be, based on Your assessment. Not to wait to magically get inside the guys mind through his eyes or to ask him about his childhood to find out how violent he may be.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yoda can do it.
:D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yoda can do it.
:D

Yoda rules!

[lkfmdc]

there is a very simple way to "read" your opponent, but since it is a closed door Lama Pai secret I can't tell you

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yoda rules!

I must say that, of the whole Star Wars Universe, Yoda does indeed rule.
Sure Maul had cool tattoos and the Emperour shot force boogers out of his hands, Yoda kicked ass and took names !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is a very simple way to "read" your opponent, but since it is a closed door Lama Pai secret I can't tell you

Flashing him with the "lama pai schlong" aka "the celestial serpent", doesn't count.

[TenTigers]

Peyton Quinn also assesses as situation BEFORE it develops, by learning to read people. When he enters a bar, he scans the crowd, the area, etc. Looking for the ones who will be most likely to start.(Musashi said the same thing) I used to do this as well. My friend and I would place ourselves in a position where we could see everyone at the bar, and then we would tryto see if we could pick out "the guy most likely to," and then watch it develop. We became pretty good at this.
Of course, the guy who sneaks up on you is a different scenerio.
Like I said in my post, it is not THE solution,. It is simply a tool.
One brushstroke of many that combine to form the overall picture.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Peyton Quinn also assesses as situation BEFORE it develops, by learning to read people. When he enters a bar, he scans the crowd, the area, etc. Looking for the ones who will be most likely to start.(Musashi said the same thing) I used to do this as well. My friend and I would place ourselves in a position where we could see everyone at the bar, and then we would tryto see if we could pick out "the guy most likely to," and then watch it develop. We became pretty good at this.
Of course, the guy who sneaks up on you is a different scenerio.
Like I said in my post, it is not THE solution,. It is simply a tool.
One brushstroke of many that combine to form the overall picture.

A little to focussed on the typical trouble maker and not enough on the real danger, but it certainly has its place.
I know way too many people that don't look like that can start anything, that's because they are finishers.

[TenTigers]

A little to focussed on the typical trouble maker and not enough on the real danger, but it certainly has its place.
I know way too many people that don't look like that can start anything, that's because they are finishers.

exactly-but as you say-those aren't the ones who start.For the most part- You only have to worry about them, if you are the guy starting it.

[TenTigers]

the funny thing is, my little exercise puts me in exactly the position I am seeking in others. If there is one or two guys in the bar, and they are sitting in the back, just watching other people....something's up. Usually those guys are waiting for something, or someone....guys like that are usually ex-boyfriends,suspicious mates,someone with a vendetta, bounty hunters, hitmen, or MLM salesmen.

[TenTigers]

speaking of Peyton Quinn, does anyone remember the aol Mrtial Arts boards? There was a thread called Luciano's Bar and Grill. This guy, Luciano was arrested and doing time, and he gave a day by day journal online. Luciano was also a skilled Martial Artist, and a friend of Quinn and Bill Pax and he gave tremendous insight into the situations and the mindsets of the predator.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the funny thing is, my little exercise puts me in exactly the position I am seeking in others. If there is one or two guys in the bar, and they are sitting in the back, just watching other people....something's up. Usually those guys are waiting for something, or someone....guys like that are usually ex-boyfriends,suspicious mates,someone with a vendetta, bounty hunters, hitmen, or MLM salesmen.

MLM salesmen...those *******s !!!


speaking of Peyton Quinn, does anyone remember the aol Mrtial Arts boards? There was a thread called Luciano's Bar and Grill. This guy, Luciano was arrested and doing time, and he gave a day by day journal online. Luciano was also a skilled Martial Artist, and a friend of Quinn and Bill Pax and he gave tremendous insight into the situations and the mindsets of the predator.

A few years ago I did a day seminar at PQ's Rocky Mountain training center, good stuff.
Loved beating up on people in padded suits.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

there is a very simple way to "read" your opponent, but since it is a closed door lama pai secret i can't tell you

shhhhhhhhh!

[banditshaw]

there is a very simple way to "read" your opponent, but since it is a closed door Lama Pai secret I can't tell you

This closed door doesn't happen to lead to a basement does it?:eek:

[TenTigers]

This closed door doesn't happen to lead to a basement does it?:eek:

yes, it does. And if you can make your way through 108 Star Wars action figures, and lift the heavy ceramic commode, you will be a Master.

[David Jamieson]

imo, it's more important to cut away your own fear and indecisiveness and to move on to what needs to be done. This will make "intent" clear to you moreso than trying to read someone elses.

It is enough that you are in a conflict, do your thing.

[Infrazael]

If you want intent check out some videos of PIPER.

www.pipersystem.com

The methods of killing used by murderers and rapists? That's real "murderous intent." I was shown to it by Eddie. Some real vicious stuff.