Stop B!tch'n...

[MightyB]

Ok- it's time to stop b!tch'n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn't work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But... here's the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu... well... kung fu.

I'll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring... realistic sparring, and scenarios... THE Catch... try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn't involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys's turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?

[KC Elbows]

kick, punch, throw, and seize, in whatever order works?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok- it's time to stop b!tch'n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn't work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But... here's the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu... well... kung fu.

I'll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring... realistic sparring, and scenarios... THE Catch... try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn't involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys's turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?

Reply]
Don't all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

Many Kung Fu teachers just give you the tools, and expect you to make them yours. It's not like a Training program where you are taught everything from the art, to how to train it, and drilled through every detail. I personally think it SHOULD be that way, and certianly the schools that can and do fight well are, but most Kung fu does not take it to that level, and that is the only problem I ever see.

[SPJ]

kick and punch as entry

then end with throws.

most seizing moves are not allowed.

if you are good at punches then KO thru head.

if your kick is fast and hard enough, then KO the opponent on the head.

--

:)

[MightyB]

I think we're falling into the same trap... or the same argument in a different thread.

Let's not be theoretical- let's talk real solutions- concrete statements on how to make kung fu work for more people, and work the way it should without giving it up.

Again- I believe in the KISS methodology. Too many techniques leads to confusion. A lot of times the same move is given a zillion different names and then it's almost taught like it's a new move when- if you grasp the original simplified version, you can apply it infinitely. Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The best way to do this would be to stick to the old School training methods. Basics, Single and two man drills, and live skill practice.

[KC Elbows]

I have found it useful in my own style to look at how other styles do the same things.

If five stylists all do some version of a fireman's carry, I like seeing them all and seeing the variations and the why for the variations. Kung fu forms tend to be broad enough to imply a lot of variations in a move, so it is always possible, and sometimes occurs, that I missed one.

Kung fu is all about knowing the opposition. Since I do a taoist art, it is essential that my style makes me a part of the fight, and ignorance of the opponent or their style prevents this from happening.

MMA fanboys and kung fu form faerie purists alike miss this, and assume far too much about what they think they are doing. The best professional fighters study their opponents in addition to training like mad, this can only aid their knowledge of how to apply their style.

Some people go from art to art presuming to know the deficiencies of the last art when they never learn to apply the art and so, fail to execute. Their failure might have been the teacher's error or the deficiency of the teacher's kung fu, but being taught nothing is not the same as having knowledge.

[KC Elbows]

Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.

One step in my form is a throw that can be applied in numerous angles and ways.

[wiz cool c]

For the last two years I have studied Bagua and Shuai Jiao. The Bagua has many throws in the system but they don't ever practice them. Just do them in the forms and the teacher will show you them maybe one or twice. Shuai Jiao is all about throws but every lesson we practice on a partner and do hard live sparring.

In the last two years I have had two chances to wrestle,[throws no ground work] with two pure kung fu guys that just started Shuai Jiao. Both where convinced there system has throws and can be used on the mat. Both cases the guys couldn't get off a throw and I was able to throw them 5 or 6 time in a a match that lasted maybe 4 minutes.

They both had good balance and strength which I credit to their kung fu training but couldn't use there styles throws against someone who practiced a combat sport style.

I know bagua has a form of sparring called Rou Shou but it is barely ever practiced. If the Bagua practioners where to practice regularly against a resistant opponent along with practicing the throws and locks with a partner more often I think Bagua can be very effective in fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The Bagua my be attempting to develop the body method first. The question is, do ANY of your teachers students get trained like you do in your Shui Jiao?

Once you have Bagua's body method, you should be working it's apps, strategy and applications same way you do the Shui Jiao. If not, there is something wrong with the way your teacher is teaching.

[wiz cool c]

I have had two Bagua teachers one here in the states and one in Beijing. They both teach and train the same way. Teach the application but almost never practice them. I think the stuff is very useful if trained with a partner often,but never seen it done that way in the internal arts.

[Ray Pina]

Make boxing gloves and headgear standard issue. Use these to work two-man cooperative boxing drills.... bridging right to striking, or whatever your style's specialty is. If these drills are not first nature to you, you should not be teaching.

Increase intensity of drills.

Remove headgear.

Remove gloves.


Put gear back on and fight (not spar) but with super fast stoppage by supervisor. Supervisor needs to be able to read what's happening at point of engagement.

After 18 months of this training, everyone will become more more comfortable with the situation. Everyone will understand the dangers of certain positions, scenarios. They will respect them.

Now people can pair up to light spar. If egos make it too competitive now there is a forum: fighting.

Not saying this is how it has to be, but it has to be sort of like this. Don't show it to them in a form. Show them the principle and how it works and make them work it.


This type of training will take care of the other big problem with Kung Fu... talking $hit. There's never so much talking during what should be training as in Kwoons. Stories about the good old days. Stories of how this style is superior to that style AND WHY:rolleyes: Lots of talk.

If you train this way you'd be embarrassed by the talk. Because you now know what fighting is: a combination of technical skill, physical ability and will. Talk plays no roll. Shut up and train.

[David Jamieson]

more fitness, more task specific training, goal orientation and attribute development.

I find that the big hurdle for most is in the fitness category.

people are all down with holding postures and learning moves, but the gassing is fast when you are not fit.

do your cal!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have had two Bagua teachers one here in the states and one in Beijing. They both teach and train the same way. Teach the application but almost never practice them. I think the stuff is very useful if trained with a partner often,but never seen it done that way in the internal arts.

Reply]
It sounds like typical modern teachers who don't know how to teach, or are unwilling. You might be better off getting together with classmates outside of lessons to work the skills.

[wiz cool c]

Yea when I have time that's what I plan to do.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think what makes most people start doubting their gung fu is that they just take too big a bite and simply can not chew it up. Most systems of gung fu require you be in great physical condition to excell. And until you are, you will not go very far. There is no secrets involved that will make you a fighting master. You have to work very hard. And the first step is to learn the principals of your chosen system and learn them step at a time. Develop your fighting skills a step at a time too. Learn them well and complete before moving on to the next systems of techniques. Even shadow boxing will develop your fighting skills. I also think the thing to do would be to look into the different skills and match them up with your own physical abilities and expectations. If you are not going to ever be capable of achieving a really high level of physical fitness they you are simply ****ing into the wind.
When I was quite young and in school, I knew individuals that could not even spell words like gung fu or karate and probably never even heard of it before, but they had a few fighting skills that they had trained hard and could apply smoothly. Their skills were honed by application. They were tough guys and had reputations for being skilled fighters. These skills were actually limited to a half dozen moves that were well polished.

Chiang

[Mr Punch]

How can we get rid of unneccessary rubbish in kung fu and bring back/in more effective training methods?

Get rid of bullsh!t mindsets like this:
I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.1) YOU don't know how effective it is cos you haven't used it have you RD? I mean pretty much any of it... in streetfights, in bars, on the door, on a battlefield, in the ring... maybe for helping your balance while you tie your shoelaces...? So your first point is moot, and thus part of the problem.

2) Saying it's technically diverse again means nothing. If the right methods aren't being used to practise these techniques, it's all just waving in the air... now, maybe it's two people waving in the air at each other, but it's still just waving in the air.

3) There's no such thing as the complete art. If you think there aren't deficiencies in your art you're part of the problem. The same goes for more modern sports based arts, and for MMA.

4) Saying that we need to practise how people in fu used to practise is also largely pipe-dreaming. Since most fuers no longer practise that way, there's no way of knowing what they did, so anything you do in that direction will be reinventing the wheel and therefore pointless.

Your 'find a good teacher' point works. And of course, testing yourself against other stylists: be prepared for a beating.

Otherwise in answer to the first post I think by now anyone who cares will know how to train realistically:

basics kiss resistance resistance resistance repeat ad infinitum.

[golden arhat]

Reply]
Don't all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before:rolleyes:


I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it's NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.



so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before:rolleyes:

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that:rolleyes:

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.:rolleyes:

I think you're right.

You want to know what prompted this thread? Seeing that d@mn Keysi Fighting Method video and realising that people studying a Made-Up art train more realistically than the average kung fu-er. We're more likely to see people fighting and winning in mma with kfm than kung fu, and that's pretty fugg'n sad. It actually peeves me off. Heck- half of the CQB that's out there is made up and frigg'n has better training methodology than a supposeable war art with a deep history.

Here's more solutions- San Shou has to be taught as a base before any "traditional" kung fu training. Once you get the basics of really fighting down, you should be able to ad realistic chin na, increase your variety of kicking and striking angles, and develop more complex throwing.

[Ray Pina]

No style is complete. In fact, I find great value in having a few different people to learn BJJ from. Everyone has their specialty, their own perspective.

Part of Kung Fu's problem is getting over this idea of the unbeatable master that knows it all. You want to be a great fighter, go spend time with as many great fighters as you can find and keep your eyes and ears open. Keep your mouth shut and just train.

[MightyB]

Make boxing gloves and headgear standard issue. Use these to work two-man cooperative boxing drills.... bridging right to striking, or whatever your style's specialty is. If these drills are not first nature to you, you should not be teaching.

Increase intensity of drills.

Remove headgear.

Remove gloves.


Put gear back on and fight (not spar) but with super fast stoppage by supervisor. Supervisor needs to be able to read what's happening at point of engagement.

After 18 months of this training, everyone will become more more comfortable with the situation. Everyone will understand the dangers of certain positions, scenarios. They will respect them.

Now people can pair up to light spar. If egos make it too competitive now there is a forum: fighting.

Not saying this is how it has to be, but it has to be sort of like this. Don't show it to them in a form. Show them the principle and how it works and make them work it.


This type of training will take care of the other big problem with Kung Fu... talking $hit. There's never so much talking during what should be training as in Kwoons. Stories about the good old days. Stories of how this style is superior to that style AND WHY:rolleyes: Lots of talk.

If you train this way you'd be embarrassed by the talk. Because you now know what fighting is: a combination of technical skill, physical ability and will. Talk plays no roll. Shut up and train.

Good Post-

[golden arhat]

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn't mean it's wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground....so you don't lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they're not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn't mean it's shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. .....well....it is shaolin.


This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.:rolleyes:

OMG DID YOU READ WHAT ROYAL DRAGON SAID AT ALL!????


"I have been saying for some time that one shouldn't have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies."

there

now is ground fighting found within the system called wing chun because one teacher teaches it? no.

is not having ground fighting taught in your system a deficency ? yes.

there fore what i said makes complete sense


"It doesn't mean it's wing chun" but i said "oh so wing chun teaches groundfighting:rolleyes:"

some people who teach wing chun also teach groundfighting but ITS NOT WING CHUN.

which means that wing chun is deficient (along with alot of other arts) in that it does not teach groundfighting.

so STFU:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

pure groundfighting systems are deficient as well inasmuch as they don't teach boxing or kicking aspects.

but then, by that measure, it is fair to say that all styles in and of themselves are deficient due to the fact that they don't deal with all possible ranges of fighting.

This will change as we see the emergence of styles that have development methods in all ranges.

[golden arhat]

pure groundfighting systems are deficient as well inasmuch as they don't teach boxing or kicking aspects.

but then, by that measure, it is fair to say that all styles in and of themselves are deficient due to the fact that they don't deal with all possible ranges of fighting.

This will change as we see the emergence of styles that have development methods in all ranges.

of coyurse pure groundfighting systems are deficient

thats the whole point of mixed martial arts
to mix it up and not let yourself become deficient

neither RD or SW seem to get that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

now is ground fighting found within the system called wing chun because one teacher teaches it? no.

is not having ground fighting taught in your system a deficency ? yes.

there fore what i said makes complete sense
:

If you go to a wing chun school and a teacher teaches you groundfighting, then yes, it's wing chun. Why? It says so on the sign outside. It's his wing chun, and you're in his world. Who gives a **** what it's called on the larger scale. It could be BJJ or wrestling. And BJJ and wrestling are other things entirely if you trace them back a century. They don't have a copyright on groundfighting. They stole it from Japanese Jujitsu and Judo and modified it, or from the greeks and the romans and the scythians and the teucerians and the trojans and whatnot. So BJJ isn't BJJ. Do they make distinctions in nomenclature between those moves of japanese origin and the Gracies? Of course not. Why bother? LOL.

People hung up on names and dates and nomenclature......:rolleyes:

Besides. Everything's shaolin, young grasshopper. My groundfighting is cooler than yours. Why? Because I can butterfly twist into an armbar.

[golden arhat]

so i guess windows and os10 are the same?


no they do things differently

wing chun with ground fighting is just that
"wing chun with ground fighting"

not wing chun

if you go up to someone and say what is wing chun they'l probably say a)a chinese restaurant or b) small straight line punches based system based on linear principles


no system is complete thats the point, thats why mma exists

[Shaolin Wookie]

MMA is incomplete. It doesn't have the 5 animals, and I'm not allowed to steal the peach.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's why your line of reasoning is retarded:

1. it does not allow for innovation. IF I study Wing Chun and I implement some ground work, and I use Wing Chun principles, it's not wing chun by your standard. It's just groundwork. It's BJJ. It's Wrestling. It's MMA, this transgendered, transnational, nihilistic megalithic thing that encompasses all martial arts, much like Wal-Mart encompasses toilet brushes by offering all kinds of different shapes and sizes to fit your everyday needs. Specialists know they offer crappy goods manufactured in Korea. Thing is, if I study Wing Chun, and Wing Chun alone, it's friggin' Wing Chun. It's not something else. If only for the fact the sign outside says "Wing Chun". According to you, it loses its Wing Chuniness because other people are doing groundwork better, by your opinion, and as their primary purpose. Well, TKD kicks more than any other art, so Muay Thai is half Tae Kwon Do, and so is Karate, and all CMA's, including Wing Chun. Oh, and MMA is Tae Kwon Do.

2. Every art has groundwork. It might not be on their cirriculum as teh main course, but they'll have the same principles, because every art knows the armbar, and the wrist lock, and the triangle. They're martial positions everybody outside of TKD know, and I'll bet even they know. I took a free week at a Combat Hapkido school. It was free. I asked about groundwork. He was happy to show me Hapkido locks on the ground. It looked just like BJJ and JJJ and wrestling. Why? Well, if you use the same principles of locking and Chin-na on the ground, it looks like those arts. Why? Because that's all they are.

3. If we apply your principle of nomenclature broadly, all religions are encompassed by Scientology, because Lord Xenu programmed us with religious iconography before he stuffed us into the volcano and shoved a nuke up our........well, probably your.....ass.

4. The main reason you're wrong: Dude, you're like 16.

5. The reason you know you're wrong: I'm John Takeshi, and I said so, beeyotch.

[Ray Pina]

Wing chun is based on Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Fuk Sau... all three positions have extended arms. That will get your finished on the ground quick fast.

I think it's awesome that each style has its specialty. Pick up what you want.

Don't use hammer thinking for a screw. Don't use a computer when you need a car,

Nothing wrong with saying Wing Chun provides me with what I need to feel safe standing, but let me go to an expert to learn some solid ground principles.

And even then, that game is constantly evolving. Good guys won't get caught in straight Kamoras or Americans. They've seen it thousands of times. You evolve the set up.

[MightyB]

Seriously- I was hoping people had ideas on how to train kung fu to make it work more consistently in real-life / stressful situations.

I like ground fighting, but quite frankly, - well - it's as close to g@y as you can get with your clothes on.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think kung fu still has the potential to be the schiznit again. Whether it's a mindset, poor methodology, too many techniques, too much ritual, whatever it is, I think it can be corrected- but how?

[golden arhat]

4. The main reason you're wrong: Dude, you're like 16. and that makes a difference why ?


5. The reason you know you're wrong: I'm John Takeshi, and I said so, beeyotch.
HE ADMITS IT


going in my sig

[The Willow Sword]

Jesus Christ will people just leave it alone already? You have your way of training and i have mine. MMA, Kung fu, Karate, JKD, TKD, Aikido, Shaolin whatever, WHATEVER.

People just gotta stop b!tchin about Kung fu and MMA. We have read, seen and heard just about every possible argument for and against Kung fu's effectiveness and the same with MMA's effectiveness. The designations of both seem to be the same yet they train differently and have a different mindset with different outcomes etc etc.
Kung-Fu is what it is and So is MMA. Kung-Fu'ers and MMA'ers need to pull the stick OUT of their @sses and stop fukin with each other.

What i am wondering is who really started all this cr@p between the two factions(if you can really call them factions) Was it the Kung-Fu'ers and their "my art is better than your art or forms better than your forms? I can defeat any Man BS.? Was it the MMA'ers and their "Kung fu is cr@p and whatever else the bullshido crowd sh!ts out on a daily basis?" im thinking its a tie between the two but ENOUGH ALREADY AND WHO CARES WHO STARTED WHAT?

The whole "Cant we just all get along" diatribe is redundant i know but I REALLY FEEL WE NEED TO ACTUALLY PUT THIS WISDOM TO ITS FULLEST EXTENT.
Both sides of the fence need to put in their place and weed out the little douchewads who think they are the know all to be all best fighters and who constantly sling sh!t at one another. Its the TEACHER's responsability to TEACH their students a certain amount of respect for any and all things out in the world, and its the STUDENT's responsability to have enough common god d@mn sense to follow it.
STFU already,,,,,,,,,,,Peace, TWS

[MightyB]

It's most likely is that we've lost faith in Kung Fu's effectiveness as to why that in combat situations the kung fu we practice looks like poor man's kickboxing. The only way that I can see for bringing faith back into it is to practice more and to find good sparring partners and trying to use proper kung fu in a "learning" fight.

I also see too much "one-handed fighting". This is where a person over relies on their strong side- boxers fight weak side forward because it allows for more power and combinations.

I think kung-fu is and can be the bomb- the basics of ground fighting has to be learned- but not to the dry humping extent of BJJ or submission wrestling.

[Ray Pina]

I like ground fighting, but quite frankly, - well - it's as close to g@y as you can get with your clothes on.

You should go take a BJJ class. I bet you find you'll like it for all the reasons you like Kung Fu. In fact, you'll be able to express your Kung Fu concepts (strong structure, sticking, flowing) in free play your first day without having to worry about getting punched or kicked. But you'll have to work them.

You'll probably have a lot of fun too.


Maybe I'm naive, but I think kung fu still has the potential to be the schiznit again. Whether it's a mindset, poor methodology, too many techniques, too much ritual, whatever it is, I think it can be corrected- but how?

Don't let anyone here make you feel like your style doesn't have enough. If you have kicking and punching and a solid blocking scheme, that you just have to train as hard as you want to be competitive with your peers.

[MasterKiller]

I like ground fighting, but quite frankly, - well - it's as close to g@y as you can get with your clothes on.

Personally, I think practicing kung fu but getting owned by high school wrestlers is much more g@y.

[MightyB]

Personally, I think practicing kung fu but getting owned by high school wrestlers is much more g@y. Singlets make me laugh...

I've been cross training in Judo for quite some time and hold my own quite well with BJJ'ers and submission wrestlers- and I still find newaza a little g@y. I just happen to prefer using the submission wrestler's modified knee on belly for self defense over the standard hold downs from judo and jiu-jitsu.

Hey- if you guys like ride another man's back with your grapes in- all the best to ya'- it's just not my thing.

[Lucas]

now thats some funny shiznit

[Ray Pina]

Singlets make me laugh...

I've been cross training in Judo for quite some time and hold my own quite well with BJJ'ers and submission wrestlers-

I find it hard to believe that someone who dislikes grappling (usually an indicator that not enough time is spent working it) can hold their own against even decent BJJers. Are you tapping purple belts? Brown belts?

[Mr Punch]

Seriously- I was hoping people had ideas on how to train kung fu to make it work more consistently in real-life / stressful situations.

...whatever it is, I think it can be corrected- but how?


basics kiss resistance resistance resistance repeat ad infinitum.


Make boxing gloves and headgear standard issue.
... Shut up and train.


You should go take a BJJ class...

To which you can add 'Animal Day' and 'Dog Bros' to your real-life/stressful situation questions.

Er. End of thread?

!

:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Jesus Christ will people just leave it alone already? You have your way of training and i have mine. MMA, Kung fu, Karate, JKD, TKD, Aikido, Shaolin whatever, WHATEVER.

People just gotta stop b!tchin about Kung fu and MMA. We have read, seen and heard just about every possible argument for and against Kung fu's effectiveness and the same with MMA's effectiveness. The designations of both seem to be the same yet they train differently and have a different mindset with different outcomes etc etc.
Kung-Fu is what it is and So is MMA. Kung-Fu'ers and MMA'ers need to pull the stick OUT of their @sses and stop fukin with each other.

What i am wondering is who really started all this cr@p between the two factions(if you can really call them factions) Was it the Kung-Fu'ers and their "my art is better than your art or forms better than your forms? I can defeat any Man BS.? Was it the MMA'ers and their "Kung fu is cr@p and whatever else the bullshido crowd sh!ts out on a daily basis?" im thinking its a tie between the two but ENOUGH ALREADY AND WHO CARES WHO STARTED WHAT?

The whole "Cant we just all get along" diatribe is redundant i know but I REALLY FEEL WE NEED TO ACTUALLY PUT THIS WISDOM TO ITS FULLEST EXTENT.
Both sides of the fence need to put in their place and weed out the little douchewads who think they are the know all to be all best fighters and who constantly sling sh!t at one another. Its the TEACHER's responsability to TEACH their students a certain amount of respect for any and all things out in the world, and its the STUDENT's responsability to have enough common god d@mn sense to follow it.
STFU already,,,,,,,,,,,Peace, TWS


MMA and Kung Fu dudes are equally arrogant, so they tend to butt heads.

[Wood Dragon]

Train as you fight.

because:

You fight like you train.

IOW, if your training program does not include sparring/randori against a resisting opponent, you are going to have problems fighting against an opponent who wants to beat you.

This includes the "shock effect" of being struck. Boxers, Kyokushin Fighters, Thaiboxers and MMA practitioners are struck regularly in their training and competition. This serves as both a body-hardening (to an extent, YMMV) process and a mental acclimatization to being hurt.

Light gloves and head protection, then fight. If you aren't having any real success against a buddy, why would you expect any better result against someone who wants to harm/conquer you?

Lastly, a basic level of athletic capability is required. If you aren't strong or fast enough to pull off techniques on a resisting opponent, you are wasting your time. Fat Ninja? No!
Get a basic strength and endurance program together, and start losing excess weight (helps you gain much more agility).

Martial Arts practitioners with years invested in training get dominated by persons with high school wrestling, boxing or a smaller length of time in BJJ, not because any given Martial Art is deficient, but because that practioner's training is deficient.

Look at how much time (per week), in practical applications, against resisting opponents, the average high school wrestler puts in. Compare it with the number of hours (per week) the average karateka or kung fu practitioner puts in (all up, including warmups*, lion dancing and weapons stuff). That's why they win.
Form follows function, your core (of course, the techniques will be different) KF/karate training program should not be fundamentally different from a MMA practitioner or wrestler. If it is, you probably aren't doing something important.

Disclosure: I've been a karateka (Kyokushin and Daido Juku) for the last 13 years, and am also a shodan in Kodokan Judo. I am also a Level III MAC (Modern Army Combatives) instructor, on Active Duty (Staff monkey, atm).

*-warmups are not PT. Your physical training time is seperate (unless you follow the Army/USMC pedagogical method, where MAC/MCMAP is usually taught at the end of a PT evolution). 30 pushups and 2 minutes running in place does not a fighter make.

[MightyB]

Train as you fight.

because:

You fight like you train.

IOW, if your training program does not include sparring/randori against a resisting opponent, you are going to have problems fighting against an opponent who wants to beat you.

This includes the "shock effect" of being struck. Boxers, Kyokushin Fighters, Thaiboxers and MMA practitioners are struck regularly in their training and competition. This serves as both a body-hardening (to an extent, YMMV) process and a mental acclimatization to being hurt.

Light gloves and head protection, then fight. If you aren't having any real success against a buddy, why would you expect any better result against someone who wants to harm/conquer you?

Lastly, a basic level of athletic capability is required. If you aren't strong or fast enough to pull off techniques on a resisting opponent, you are wasting your time. Fat Ninja? No!
Get a basic strength and endurance program together, and start losing excess weight (helps you gain much more agility).

Martial Arts practitioners with years invested in training get dominated by persons with high school wrestling, boxing or a smaller length of time in BJJ, not because any given Martial Art is deficient, but because that practioner's training is deficient.

Look at how much time (per week), in practical applications, against resisting opponents, the average high school wrestler puts in. Compare it with the number of hours (per week) the average karateka or kung fu practitioner puts in (all up, including warmups*, lion dancing and weapons stuff). That's why they win.
Form follows function, your core (of course, the techniques will be different) KF/karate training program should not be fundamentally different from a MMA practitioner or wrestler. If it is, you probably aren't doing something important.

Disclosure: I've been a karateka (Kyokushin and Daido Juku) for the last 13 years, and am also a shodan in Kodokan Judo. I am also a Level III MAC (Modern Army Combatives) instructor, on Active Duty (Staff monkey, atm).

*-warmups are not PT. Your physical training time is seperate (unless you follow the Army/USMC pedagogical method, where MAC/MCMAP is usually taught at the end of a PT evolution). 30 pushups and 2 minutes running in place does not a fighter make.

Good Post-

[MightyB]

I find it hard to believe that someone who dislikes grappling (usually an indicator that not enough time is spent working it) can hold their own against even decent BJJers. Are you tapping purple belts? Brown belts?

Lame-

Who the F-ck knows. I live in Michigan- I'm skeptical of anyone claiming anything BJJ. Unless they've lived in or are from Texas (Machado), California (Gracie, Gokor, LeBell), or NY (Gracie)- I don't put much faith in their claim of distance learning BJJ-

The Judo and Sambo guys I train with are all Brown Belt and Above- most are "mat hard" from regular competition (my coach is a former HS wrestling coach- and I tell you- I'm so darn afear'd of high school wrestlers :( heck I was one way back when :eek: ), a few are from Severn's school in Coldwater. All of us know the same tricks- are good at Judo Newaza- and are smart enough to know how to ad a couple of ankle locks and neck cranks (LeBell was doing it long before the Gracie craze). We all participate in regular newaza randori with and without gi's. It's not like we live in a vacuum and don't know that it's important to be competent on the mat. And no- I don't win all the time- but I hold my own.

It's still kinda g@y

But- BJJ, MMA, are good catalysts for this discussion- but they're not what this discussion is about- it's about improving the training in kung fu schools- using kung fu techniques so that we can use something that looks like the kung fu we train in real life scenarios- whether it's on a lei tai mat- or the street.

[SimonM]

MMA is incomplete. It doesn't have the 5 animals, and I'm not allowed to steal the peach.

Ok C@ckpuncher... sure... MMA is incomplete because you can't tickle the teabags.

And they said JJ was ghey.

[MightyB]

BJJ, MMA, are good catalysts for this discussion- but they're not what this discussion is about- it's about improving the training in kung fu schools- using kung fu techniques so that we can use something that looks like the kung fu we train in real life scenarios- whether it's on a lei tai mat- or the street.

Maybe it's not possible- :(

[SimonM]

According to you, it loses its Wing Chuniness because other people are doing groundwork better, by your opinion, and as their primary purpose. Well, TKD kicks more than any other art, so Muay Thai is half Tae Kwon Do, and so is Karate, and all CMA's, including Wing Chun. Oh, and MMA is Tae Kwon Do.


Wow, that's some spurious logic there.

Here's the place where your argument falls to pieces.

Traditional MT contains kicks not derived from a third party source.

Traditional WT is completely devoid of groundfighting techniques.

Therefore for MT to use kicks it doesn't have to borrow from another art. For WT to include groundfighting they have to farm out to some other art. BJJ, JJJ, Folk Wrestling, what have you are not WT. They don't become WT just because a WT teacher crosstrains in one of them and goes: hey this art makes a good companion to my core art because it fills up the holes in the style.



2. Every art has groundwork.


Nonsense, unadulterated nonsense.



They're martial positions everybody outside of TKD know, and I'll bet even they know.

Wow, you REALLY seem to hate TKD. And yet you claim that every other style in the world is complete with no need for crosstraining. Wierd.



I took a free week at a Combat Hapkido school. It was free. I asked about groundwork. He was happy to show me Hapkido locks on the ground. It looked just like BJJ and JJJ and wrestling. Why? Well, if you use the same principles of locking and Chin-na on the ground, it looks like those arts. Why? Because that's all they are.


And did you, you know, go out and TRY OUT any of those techniques against a JJJer or a BJJer or a wrestler to SEE if they really work just as well?

No.

[bakxierboxer]

Maybe it's not possible- :(

Why would you think that?

You actually started out offering up "an answer" in post #1 and dead-bang nailed"the answer" in post #34..........

[MightyB]

Why would you think that?

You actually started out offering up "an answer" in post #1 and dead-bang nailed"the answer" in post #34..........

Believe me I'm trying- I do think that with the right training and training partners ( the value of a good sparring partner can never be overestimated ) that it's possible to bring back or create "old-school" kung fu...

[Ray Pina]

I don't know who said it, but there's MUCH more to Jiu-Jitsu then locks. Submission without position is useless. The value of Jiu-Jitsu is learning how to sink your weight and be heavy to torture the other guy, control him and force him to do something to relieve the pressure. Then you nail him with a submission.

Heaviness. But also lightness. Drilling energy, digging your head in to torture someone. Explosiveness. So much. So much.

[bakxierboxer]

Believe me I'm trying- I do think that with the right training and training partners ( the value of a good sparring partner can never be overestimated ) that it's possible to bring back or create "old-school" kung fu...

Definite value in them... I tend to think-of/like smallish groups of @ 4 (or more)
who can provide each other with varying characteristics/abilities.

I also dislike the term "sparring", preferring the "feel" of "free-fighting"
(with a "gentleman's agreement" on what "limits" are to be used)

As for "bringing back" or "(re?)creating" "old-school kung fu".... what's that Old Saying about?
Something like.... "venting a ream" or "reaming the wheel"? :rolleyes:
Tsk!
It's "slipping my mind"....... :D

[KC Elbows]

Wow, that's some spurious logic there.

Here's the place where your argument falls to pieces.

Traditional MT contains kicks not derived from a third party source.

Traditional WT is completely devoid of groundfighting techniques.


I don't think it's that simple. BJJ did not, wholesale, come from nowhere, it borrowed from other arts from the very beginning, yet it surely is a style on its own. If another style finds ways to accommodate new techniques within a framework that is specific to that style, and/or complementary in training techniques and principles, those techniques, in that line of the style, can fairly be called part of that style, regardless of where they originally come from.

One can link many taiji techniques to longfist, but to call taiji longfist because longfist could have been an earlier source is false, taiji has it's own specific approach to those techniques.

Fighters should be addressing fighting needs, to suggest there is only one style that addresses ground fighting needs is not accurate, therefore to suggest that no further styles could arise that address those needs is questionable, and might stymie innovation. Not that long ago, bjj did not exist, even if many of its techniques did in other styles, but it is a good thing that someone felt the urge to innovate, had the talent to do so, and the courage to pressure test their innovations.

It is worth stating that many of the opponents bjj fighters faced early on were not exactly well suited and experienced enough to provide a good pressure test on the ground, except for other bjj guys and some judo guys, but it was better than nothing.

As long as innovation is being tested, that's cool. If it all becomes about dogmatically sticking by this style or that, bjj included, the full contact fighters with blind spots will be the ones assuming their style has all answers and there are no new questions. The rather recent phenomenon of bjj and mma shows that new problems can still arise, so why not raise them?

[mkriii]

I think one of the reasons why kung fu doesn't work is because people (schools) don't train properly or like they used to back in the old days. When kung fu students sparr today it's more like kickboxing. They don't use the techniques that they learn in class or from their forms. When was the last time you saw someone sparr and use a tiger claw or an eagle claw or a mantis claw or a crane beak? I think that the instructors are the ones to blame because they aren't teaching the student how to apply these techniques when fighting. Their teaching the forms and bsic kicks and punches and then letting the student sparr. What the teacher(s) should be doing is telling the students that the only techniques they can use while sparring in class are the techniques they learned in the forms. Of course the teacher has to show the student what each technique in the form is for and how it is applied in different situations. If your in a grappling situation there are tons of kung fu techniques that can be used. If your in a clinch position you could go for the eyes with a thumb strike, use a snake head strike to the throat, etc.... Kung fu will work if you use the correct technique for that particular situation your in.

[David Jamieson]

more fitness, more task specific training, goal orientation and attribute development.

I find that the big hurdle for most is in the fitness category.

people are all down with holding postures and learning moves, but the gassing is fast when you are not fit.

do your cal!

also. the attitude of taking a ma class to something like going to dance class with promotions is curious.

so besides fitness, function has to be brought to bear and you can only do that through application. Form follows function. Learning patterns without learning the functions is useless and time consuming.

there is a cleverness to many applications that is really worth studying in an environment that promotes progress.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wow, that's some spurious logic there.

Here's the place where your argument falls to pieces.

Traditional MT contains kicks not derived from a third party source.

...Laugh.....if you have legs, you can make up any kick. Do you honestly think that kicking arts never used any of the MT kicks, ever? That it was like this genetic thing only the Thais understood? Or, maybe, just maybe, people kick however they kick. I bet you some Chinese person did a MT kick without studying or ever seeing MT. No....wait...... I'm sure that's just nonsense.....pure and utter nonsense....you take two thousand years of martial practice, with millions of practitioners....but only hte Thais, those blessed CHOSEN ONES...only the Thais ever kicked in the fashion they kicked.......

Or, maybe they lacked the imaginations for finely executed triple gainers with a butterfly twist 540 back heel kick.


Traditional WT is completely devoid of groundfighting techniques.

Who cares? That's not the question.


Therefore for MT to use kicks it doesn't have to borrow from another art.

Nonsense. I did some Muay Thai kicks in Capoeira. Since we all come from Africa, and Capoeira is a slave art based on African traditions, clearly they took their kicks (especially the Teep) from Capoeira.


For WT to include groundfighting they have to farm out to some other art. BJJ, JJJ, Folk Wrestling, what have you are not WT. They don't become WT just because a WT teacher crosstrains in one of them and goes: hey this art makes a good companion to my core art because it fills up the holes in the style.

Yes, it does become Wing Chun. So....how did BJJ become BJJ? How did wrestling become wrestling? Maybe they were created on the sixth day?:confused: BJJ is still evolving, borrowing, adapting, etc. So is Wing Chun.


You guys are all so closeminded, it's hilarious.








And did you, you know, go out and TRY OUT any of those techniques against a JJJer or a BJJer or a wrestler to SEE if they really work just as well?

No.

Well, considering I've done beginner's BJJ and took a Submission Wrestling seminar from a pro MMA'er and used to get tips from a Vale Tudo guy from Brazil, and the techniques in Shaolin Groundfighting....yes...Shaolin Groundfighting were the same basic techniques, then yes, they'd work just as well. But I won't practice them as much as standup, so they'll never be perfect. But better a little something than nothing at all.

Oh wait...here it comes....


No it won't. Groundfighting rules.

It does, as long as it's my Shaolin Groundfighting.

[Ray Pina]

No disrespect to anyone here, but there is a lot of confusing "a few lessons" and "seminars" with working knowledge of a subject. Jiu-Jitsu is like anything, you get out what you put in.

And if you are a natural, a super gifted learner, your what, 15 hours of total training experience under qualified supervision means what? I put that in already this week and I'm still training tomorrow and Sat.


This goes back to my larger point: A large group of martial artists aren't playing around anymore. They are training hard. Your typical Kung Fu hobbyist can't compete, so they don't. And this is good.

People talk about the old days and how hard people trained. Well, you can do that now, today, if you want. This is how it should be. If you want it you put your love and life into it. If not, that's great too. But don't bend reality and make excuses. And the best thing is there's no arguing with this game. You either get beat up or beat someone up and its all on you and your training.

[MasterKiller]

When was the last time you saw someone sparr and use a tiger claw or an eagle claw or a mantis claw or a crane beak? I use crane and mantis hooks all the time in the clinch and on the ground. In wrestling, it's just called a thumbless grip.


I think that the instructors are the ones to blame because they aren't teaching the student how to apply these techniques when fighting. Their teaching the forms and bsic kicks and punches and then letting the student sparr. What the teacher(s) should be doing is telling the students that the only techniques they can use while sparring in class are the techniques they learned in the forms. Of course the teacher has to show the student what each technique in the form is for and how it is applied in different situations. If your in a grappling situation there are tons of kung fu techniques that can be used. The only way to get people to use techniques from their forms is to seperate the technique from the form and get the students to drill them against resisting partners at varying levels of aggression and power. When you drill techniques this way, you quickly learn that some techniques simply do not work and others, while appearing basic, are really the most efficient method in a fight.


If your in a clinch position you could go for the eyes with a thumb strike, use a snake head strike to the throat, etc.... Kung fu will work if you use the correct technique for that particular situation your in. If that's all your kung fu has to rely on, then you don't have kung fu. Ti Da Shuai Na.

[MightyB]

The only way to get people to use techniques from their forms is to seperate the technique from the form and get the students to drill them against resisting partners at varying levels of aggression and power. When you drill techniques this way, you quickly learn that some techniques simply do not work and others, while appearing basic, are really the most efficient method in a fight.


I think this is key- something that I think everyone, myself included, needs to do more of.

[Ray Pina]

Also, one technique that works for one guy might not work for another. That's why individual techniques such as say, tiger's claw or crane beak, are not as important as core aspects: shielding, entering, exiting, opening shielding, collapsing shields. When you successfully open a man's defense then you can tiger claw his chin and dig your fingers into his eyes. Or uppercut him. Or over hand his nose.

Crane beaks are a good attack while fading away from an attack. So is a hook. Or a step and low round house kick.

[SimonM]

As long as innovation is being tested, that's cool. If it all becomes about dogmatically sticking by this style or that, bjj included, the full contact fighters with blind spots will be the ones assuming their style has all answers and there are no new questions. The rather recent phenomenon of bjj and mma shows that new problems can still arise, so why not raise them?

This isn't, for me, an issue of whether or not there is more than one groundfighting style, I am perfectly aware that there are several since I've participated in three different ones (folk wrestling, judo, jjj) in my life. The issue is one of nomenclature; does something become part of a core art just because one instructor cross-trains in it and then instructs his students in both core and supplement? Or does it remain a case of an instructor who simply has more than one core art or who has a core art and a supplemental art?

I think the latter. Takeshi thinks the former.

And he also is trying the stupid chestnut of attributing quotes to me that I didn't say. Jack@ss

[KC Elbows]

This isn't, for me, an issue of whether or not there is more than one groundfighting style, I am perfectly aware that there are several since I've participated in three different ones (folk wrestling, judo, jjj) in my life. The issue is one of nomenclature; does something become part of a core art just because one instructor cross-trains in it and then instructs his students in both core and supplement? Or does it remain a case of an instructor who simply has more than one core art or who has a core art and a supplemental art?

I think the latter. Takeshi thinks the former.

My point was, bjj has plenty of things that came from Gracie's previous training, yet no one questions whether it is core to bjj, because it is.

It's not about core arts and cross-training, but whether new elements are integrated into the system of fighting, in which case their role is specific to that system of fighting, and thus, now part of the style itself.

For bjj, it is easier to make these distinctions, because it doesn't, in any useful sense, approach anything but getting to ground fighting and fighting from and out of there, but even so, there are elements that, according to your definition, are not brazilian jiu jitsu, but are, by and large, considered by everyone to be part of bjj.

Kung fu styles are intended to encompass broad aspects of fighting, and so it is perfectly rational to adopt new techniques and work them into the system where possible, at which point they become core to the style, where they work, just as happened in bjj.

This, of course, requires pressure testing, which is the thing some schools fail to do.

[TenTigers]

ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.

[TenTigers]

btw- this does not mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Too many people never reached a high level, and only learning the basics of their art, decided that they already knew better, and disgarded the whole thing as being useless.

[huolung]

ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.

I have to agree on that one! The Chin Woo organization and Central Guoshu Institute are prime examples. This has been quite an interesting thread to say the least. A lot of really cool opinions. With that said I have a few of my own.
First and foremost, on the subject of making kung fu work.... Well! I would first say understanding. First the understanding one's particular goals for studying Kung Fu in the first place. Is it to be a fighter or an artist? If for the latter (and that's perfectly alright) then don't expect to be a great fighter. But if it is for the former then comes the journey to understand the application behind EVERY leg technique (whether kick or stance), and hand technique (whether a fist, claw, or grab) within one's style. This also brings me to the subject of basics. There are fundamentals within every well established style of kung fu that should be practiced with reckless abandon. For instance stances and footwork are HUGE in a lot of TCMA's. However for the sake of learning more advanced techniques a lot of us (because of some lack of discipline or another) get bored and want to move on to something else, which is why when practicing forms that back foot comes off the ground in that bow/mountain climbing stance. On that same note how many times have we seen kung fu guys get taken down by that notorious MMA tackle when all they had to do was refer to that basic technique? I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but basics like that have worked for me! But the most important thing I think needs to be remembered before we of the family of traditional TCMA's take offense to know-it-alls who say kung fu is ineffective is that it's not the art but the practitioner who holds that responsibility. Most TCMA's are 100's or even 1000's of years old. And if they were that ineffective they would no longer exist. I've lost fights (street fights) and won them. MY kung fu has been both effective as well as ineffective. But that was MY lack of understanding, or fluidity or whatever other myriad shortcomings! Not that of Longfist or Tai Chi. Oh! One last thing (and I'll shut up for a minute): I've watched some sparring matches and some fights recently and have noticed how a Kung Fu player will square off with a wrestler and try to contend in that wrestler's realm... Uh ja... BAD MEDICINE!!! I think when it comes to those moments the best thing is to stay true to what you've learned... I.e. should we have the chance, those of us who practice arts like Longfist should take the most ridiculously trademark (albeit mobile) stance of that style! Of course if you lose I guess there's the risk of looking stupid. But let's at least give ourselves some familiar ground to work with!


Namaste

[bawang]

i think what makes kung fu unique is its trainging methods. what appealed to me about kung fu was always about the extreme conditioning, enduring pain and eat bitter. its the quest to become invulnerable.
at first i didnt even know about forms. it seems these days peopl ehave unhealthy obsession about forms. forms are just random techniques your lineage masters stringed up theyre not sacred.
iron fist iiron body skill, lifting stone weights are basic skills almost every kung fu guy used to learn. how many traditional people learn them now?

how many people practice basics?
after 5 years i still do horse stance punching in the morning 200 times, who still do?

in qing dynasty u pass military officer examination by lifting stone slabs. 250 pounds is minimum, and you hit eight sandbags all around you. a lot of average kung fu ppl think weights arent traditional. or hitting bags.
people dont wanna eat bitter they wanna have fun and gain self confidence.
people dont wanna train hard. yang luchan from yang taiji killed some of his students, and taijiquan was one of the softer styles.

about learning from outside influences, the most popular weapon the sabre dao is a mongolian weapon. shuai jiao one of the few styles still able to be effective has huge mongolian and manchu influence too. learning from 8 muns and 9 pais was a compliment.

one thing i find funny is ever since ufc became popular i saw kung fu poeple doing muay thai kicks when they never learnd muay thai. or going into peekaboo boxing stance when they never stepped foot inside a boxing gym.





maybe kung fu is just too foreign. it must have been cool and exotic for westerners to watch some ching chong chinamen going HUWA! HAIEEE! WAA! on a movie screen and wanted to imitate as children or teenagers, but maybe in the back of people's minds they just can't pull it off. too strange. too weird. i think this is true and people need to admit this.

[bakxierboxer]

i think what makes kung fu unique is its trainging methods. what appealed to me about kung fu was always about the extreme conditioning

Definitely a major factor.



forms are just random techniques your lineage masters stringed up theyre not sacred.

No, forms are not sacred, but in no way are the traditional sets "random techniques".
(if they give that appearance, they were passed on incorrectly)

[YouKnowWho]

The Bagua may be attempting to develop the body method first.
The SC also attempt to develop the body method first but the SC body method is developed through the wrestling and not through the form training. The end goal may be the same but the paths are different. A guy has been with me for 5 years. He has learned most of the throwing skill but he has not even learned a single solo form from me yet. I told him that the day that he no longer be able to compete (he plays with a local Judo club), the day that I'll teach him the solo form. IMO, the solo form is to enhance the combat skill. It should be taught after one has the combat skill and not before that. When you get old and no longer compete in tournaments, you will have all the time on earth to enhance your foundation. When you are still young, you should test your skill against as many people as possible.

I may not belong to the main stream but that's just how I feel about CMA training. I had gone through the TCMA training method myself (learned one form after another). It didn't work for me and I hated it. I just don't want others to take the same path as I did by spending most of the valuable training time trying to make the form look pretty.

The day when someone asks you, "What's your style?" and your answer to him is, "My style is the style that can beat the **** out of you." You may have just helped CMA to move toward the right direction.

[bakxierboxer]

The SC also attempt to develop the body method first but the SC body method is developed through the wrestling and not through the form training.

It actually never occurred to me that SC even HAD ANY forms.
If I gave it a bit of thought, I might have decided that it would be something like Judo "kata".


IMO, the solo form is to enhance the combat skill.

Agreed... in the sense of "polishing" it.



It should be taught after one has the combat skill and not before that. When you get old and no longer compete in tournaments, you will have all the time on earth to enhance your foundation.

When you talk about it as enhancing or building your foundation, it seems as though that would be something you'd start out with.
You can't seriously mean that you want to go into competition without a well-developed (or at least "useful") foundation.

As for having "something to do" after retiring from competition?
Sure, you can use it for that....

The main question that I have when I consider the way you put it is..... just what were you doing in the first place? Shuai Chiao or Competition?

It seems as though:
If you were devoted to Shuai Chiao, then after retiring from your "competitive phase" you would continue to do Shuai Chiao in one way or another.

and

If you were actually a Competitor, then after retiring.... what is left?



I may not belong to the main stream but that's just how I feel about CMA training.

I'm not so sure that there is any such thing as a stream (main or otherwise) in MA.



I had gone through the TCMA training method myself (learned one form after another). It didn't work for me and I hated it.

"Different strokes for different folks..."



I just don't want others to take the same path as I did by spendinmost of the valuable training time trying to make the form look pretty.

"Making the form look pretty" is not the objective in a MA, although it is the end goal in a "performance art".
That said, off-hand, I can't think of any moves in my forms that look "bad" or malformed in an aesthetic sense.
The objective is to make the moves as nearly identical in all ways to the way they are actually used.


The day when someone asks you, "What's your style?" and your answer to him is, "My style is the style that can beat the **** out of you." You may have just helped CMA to move toward the right direction.

That's not the way I normally express myself.

[YouKnowWho]

When you talk about it as enhancing or building your foundation, it seems as though that would be something you'd start out with.
You can't seriously mean that you want to go into competition without a well-developed (or at least "useful") foundation.
Since there is no limit in foundation training, there is no way to decide whether or not your foundation is good enough or not. You don't want to stay in the elementary school until you can graduate with all "A" scores on every classes. If you feel that music may not be your field, you may be satisfied with a "C" in music and move on. There is only a small window in our life that's good for "experience development". After we have passed that period, we may have family, full time job, and we no longer be able to take any risk to get injury.

[AJM]

Ok- it's time to stop b!tch'n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn't work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But... here's the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu... well... kung fu.

I'll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring... realistic sparring, and scenarios... THE Catch... try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn't involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.


Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys's turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?
Exxelant suggestions. Thank you so much for bringing up a chinese martial arts topic on a chinese martial arts forum.

[YouKnowWho]

Exxelant suggestions. Thank you so much for bringing up a chinese martial arts topic on a chinese martial arts forum.
It's like to go to a Christian church and tell a pastor that he needs to have faith in God because that pastor constantly b!tch'n about "God doesn't exist".

[friday]

My guess is, nothing will ever replace real fighting against a resisting opponent who has it in for you. Is that a safe way? of course not!

so lets bring back the realism to kung fu or as real as it can get without getting seriously injured all the time (which for some schools is partly/wholly/varying degrees already there??).

My view is:

1. take out the guess work;
2. teach the applications;
3. drill them;
4. spar using them;
5. bring in/go out to spar/fight with fighters from other backgrounds;
6. train/spar in the context you need/ whether its sport/self defence/ etc.

7. plus alot of conditioning, cardio, drills drills, etcetc

[bakxierboxer]

Since there is no limit in foundation training, there is no way to decide whether or not your foundation is good enough or not. You don't want to stay in the elementary school until you can graduate with all "A" scores on every classes. If you feel that music may not be your field, you may be satisfied with a "C" in music and move on. There is only a small window in our life that's good for "experience development". After we have passed that period, we may have family, full time job, and we no longer be able to take any risk to get injury.

While your thoughts about "growing out of it" are good, it doesn't seem that going directly from "elementary school" to the "big leagues" is a very good idea, either.
Similarly, "semi-pro" leagues aren't exactly a place for "beginners".

Of course, if you think about my phrasing of "growing out of it"....

[YouKnowWho]

While your thoughts about "growing out of it" are good, it doesn't seem that going directly from "elementary school" to the "big leagues" is a very good idea, either.
IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one. Of course you can't swim very well the 1st time that you jump into water but you can still try to keep your body float.

SC doesn't have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.

[bakxierboxer]

IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one.

You'd get some really loud/persistent howls of outrage from "liberals/progressives" if you were to try forcing "combative stuff" on public elementary school kids.
Or did you mean "basic training" in a MA school?


SC doesn't have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.

Sounds at least a bit similar to the Judo "Kata".

[bawang]

IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one. Of course you can't swim very well the 1st time that you jump into water but you can still try to keep your body float.

SC doesn't have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.

i agree with u
about short drills, thats not just shuai jiao, for most styles with forms each move from a form should be a drill by itself

[MightyB]

You'd get some really loud/persistent howls of outrage from "liberals/progressives" if you were to try forcing "combative stuff" on public elementary school kids.


Hawaii does it

http://www.sportshigh.com/sports/judo/tournament/2008

http://hawaiijudo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=8&Itemid=28

[AJM]

ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.
I know a young fella from China that practices his familys' system. His Father required him and his brother to go learn another style. Apparently this tradition has been passed down for a lot of generations. Very good idea in my opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

if you were to try forcing "combative stuff" on public elementary school kids. Or did you mean "basic training" in a MA school?
I mean "beginner training stage". In most of the SC school, the teacher will ask the new students to wrestle with the old students on the 1st day. This is a very good test.

- If any student doesn't like physical contact then he may need to find other style.
- It tells the new students that how much body balance knowledge that he has.
- After few months, the new students will feel that it gets harder and harder for the old students to throw him, he will then build up confidence on his training program.
- The most important one is, this will prove to a new student that no matter how strong he is, without a good throwing move, he cannot throw anybody (there is always a lucky punch but there will never be a lucky throw).

[bakxierboxer]

Hawaii does it

http://www.sportshigh.com/sports/judo/tournament/2008

http://hawaiijudo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=8&Itemid=28

Nope, the links specifically refer to "teams".
These are not required school-system-wide MA courses.

[bakxierboxer]

I mean "beginner training stage". In most of the SC school, the teacher will ask the new students to wrestle with the old students on the 1st day. This is a very good test.
.......
- If any student doesn't like physical contact then he may need to find other style.


OK, then we're in agreement.