Theory of CMA (communism) vs MMA (free market system)

[Ray Pina]

Been studying economics lately.

Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China's recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.

Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.

[Mano Mano]

Been studying economics lately.

Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China's recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.

Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.
I would say more like the philosophy of Confucius, the traditional structure of Chinese martial arts is based on the teachings of Confucius. The Chinese Communists also made use of Confucius by sort of mixing Marxists theory with traditional Chinese classical education & thought.

[SPJ]

since the politics brought up;

1. actually, today's China is different from let's say in 1950's and 1960's.

There are 4 gen of leaderships from CPC or CCP.

1. Mao

all the movements, great leap forward, cultural revolution, practice of communisms actually bankbrupt the economics, made million's hunger, They did not work or failed miserably.

2. Deng

something had to be changed or reversed back. open door, free flow of goods and money. money/capital was considered vehicle of persecution of workers and farmers, but no more. China tried to pick up whatever is left over from 10 years of cultural depletion or wreckage.

3. Jiang

open door to the west and free flow of foreign capital/investment continued, all the coast cities were developed while the countryside and the big far west still waiting.

4. Hu/Wen

open door not just the economic, but slowly some political freedom at local elections.

China is changing fast or embracing the west/capitalism.

They are educating/training the largest pool of talents, business management, engineers,--

They are looking at 21st century and not late 18th, 19th or 20 th centuries.

--

actually, CPC has to continue to change or being buried by the history as all other former commie are not there any more.

This is the same for vietnam, cuba, north korea.

if they dun change, they will be changed.

--

;)

[SimonM]

ROTFL that was the biggest pile of absolute nonsense I've seen in a long time.

Sorry Ray, usually see eye-to-eye with you but... seriously... CMA's problem is NOT that China is titularly "communist"....

And the issue of China's so-called communism is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, I think Ray makes a lot of sense with that idea.

Infact, I think it is the most brilliant observation seen on this forum in a long, long time.

[WinterPalm]

I think the problem many see is not even related to the communist government. What about all the crap called Kung Fu that spread out BEFORE and on the eve of the communist takeover?

[CFT]

Ray it would help the debate if you can list what you think are the negative influences in CMA.

[Ray Pina]

Well, this wasn't so long thought out theory. Just came to me the other day in passing.

I love Shanghai. I've been there twice. Awesome city and awesome people.

I'm suggesting, just putting it out there, that older Chinese, say like my master, were brought up perhaps not to question certain things or be competitive. At least not outwardly.

While MMA is the direct result from wanting to not only compete, but welcome everyone and all styles.

I think many CMA schools still operate with this paradigm. They don't want to be compared with other fighting systems, say western boxing, thai boxing, BJJ... they cut themselves off, compete amongst themselves. An environment like this is ripe for mysticism (I'm thinking chi, alters, incense) ... a way to bring "value add" or differentiation for those who are drawn to martial arts but don't want to sweat or bleed.

[Ray Pina]

I think the problem many see is not even related to the communist government. What about all the crap called Kung Fu that spread out BEFORE and on the eve of the communist takeover?


I don't think Chinese Martial Arts had problems in the past, particularly before the advent and wide circulation of the gun... China has a wonderful history of military proficiency. It brought us the Art of War, flame throwers, gun powder and some would argue the foundation for a multitude of modern empty hand methods.

Kung Fu's "problem", from a martial art standpoint, is that it stopped being functional as a whole. Sure, there are schools and clans that may be keeping it real, but that's not the rule, it's the exception.

And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They're all related.

If you train with a significant warm up -- not to waste time, but to improve attributes and ability ... drill with resistance, then spar for multiple rounds with multiple partners... you're going to become a lean, mean, fighting machine. A good number of those guys want to go out to fight. It pushes everyone in the gym. It raises performance.

[CFT]

Those are fine arguments Ray but how does that relate to the Communist government, if that is what you meant by your thread title?

I think the insularity you highlight was already prevalent before the Communists came to power.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They're all related.

Reply]
What Kung Fu schools have you been going to? I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.

Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.

[TenTigers]

not to sideline the conversation, but ...I understand the reference to ch'i as mysticism, but altars and insence are to pay respect to the founders and past masters of the style. Guan Gung is honored for his chivalry,morality, courage, and virtue. He is a role model. It is not worship so much as it is respect.
Certainly not mysticism.




-unless you are invoking their spirits into you:eek:

[SimonM]

Not exactly TT. Guangong actually has been elevated to the level of a deity. He is ALSO venerated for his virtues.

[SPJ]

Did somebody mention guan gong?

I heard that the movie red cliff is too flashy not so "truthfully" protrayed.

Guan gong was supposed to be high, and tall to wield the guan dao.

It is not just a red face.

--

have to wait for dvd to see part I of red cliff now showing in China.

--

:(

[Eddie]

Im tempted to jump in and say I’m actually very much for a communist type government, but then I was reminded I am surrounded by Americans ;). No-one might ever want to speak with me again. :cool: :D

[mantis108]

Been studying economics lately.

Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China's recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.

Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.

Well, Communism in China is based on Marxism-Leninism of which central economic planning is key. The problem specific to CMA is that the doctrine of democratic centralism, which encourage grassroot participation was used as a tool to drawn out the educated and the skilled citizen whom are then persecuted. Those who left to oversee the centralizing of CMA were not intelligent enough to even discern the difference between martial sports and martial arts. Hack, they don't even have a clue what's the difference between dancing and Kung Fu forms. It's like asking a farm tracker's driver to design a concept car. That's why modern Wushu is FUBAR to the Nth degree!!!!! Then you have those Communist collaborators who have formal traditional CMA training that thought it would be a good idea to just do as they are told. That's why we have such a fiasco these days.

This is just what is on the surface. The real philosophical issue is the Dialectical Materialism that denies human needs, desires, and endeavors. Not only is Dialectical Materialism foreign to Chinese thoughts it is also contradictory to the most central principle of TCMA - moral. Morality is autonomy of will. Ancient Chinese understood this very well and have spent thousands of years working on it. But no thanks to people like Mao and others who really have little to no understanding of Chinese culture (ironic - I know) that they got duped into believing heteronomy of will that is the preaching of Dialectical Materialism.

Well, idiocy is not a crime per se but it can be a deadly Sin as seen in the PRC. I just hope that one day the disease of idiocy amongst the "politicians" all over the world could be cured.

[WinterPalm]

I don't think Chinese Martial Arts had problems in the past, particularly before the advent and wide circulation of the gun... China has a wonderful history of military proficiency. It brought us the Art of War, flame throwers, gun powder and some would argue the foundation for a multitude of modern empty hand methods.

Kung Fu's "problem", from a martial art standpoint, is that it stopped being functional as a whole. Sure, there are schools and clans that may be keeping it real, but that's not the rule, it's the exception.

And what do I mean by functional? Functional to me, is at the very least maintaining the present standards of combat. And by that standard, most CMA players fall waaay short in conditioning, resistance training, free form sparring and fighting. They're all related.

If you train with a significant warm up -- not to waste time, but to improve attributes and ability ... drill with resistance, then spar for multiple rounds with multiple partners... you're going to become a lean, mean, fighting machine. A good number of those guys want to go out to fight. It pushes everyone in the gym. It raises performance.

I agree with this post but what I was saying is that much of the TCMA we see in North America came from before the Communist party and the cultural revolution.
If anything, China has been quite closed off historically, and they may have something to do with it. But I think the digression of TCMA is based on people no longer fighting/having to fight.

[lkfmdc]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...

[Ray Pina]

I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.

Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.

I can name several Kung Fu schools on Long Island and in NYC that I would say, and of course this is all relative to one's perspective and standard, that are very far from meeting these standards.

The standard would appear something like this: guys who have been training for 2 years or more are ripped! Six packs! Strong backs and shoulders. Strong legs. After class people are laying around gassed.

Sorry, I'm familiar with a lot of Kung Fu schools in NY and the students aren't like this.

As for fighting standard.... free play is daily. Not weekly or monthly. There's no time to waist on forms. It's conditioning and drilling technique. Drilling attributes. Then banging. Guys in the gym have fought. Guys in the gym are preparing for a fight. This sort of environment is contagious and pushes everyone.

I think to save time a better question might be what Kung Fu school in NY does train this way, with the exception of Coach Ross' (does he consider his school a kwoon?)?

[Ray Pina]

not to sideline the conversation, but ...I understand the reference to ch'i as mysticism, but altars and insence are to pay respect to the founders and past masters of the style. Guan Gung is honored for his chivalry,morality, courage, and virtue. He is a role model. It is not worship so much as it is respect.
Certainly not mysticism.

I honestly see it as marketing. In the states, how many of your practitionars are Buddhist or Confucionist? In Christianity and Judaism that would be idle worship. And I think it's a distraction.

You know how crazy these wanna-be Shaolin monk types are. This sort of thing just feeds that behavior.

Everyone talks about all these moral aspects that are supposed to be taught in martial arts but it's not real. Those lessons are learned via proper training.

You come in and you sweat and you work hard. You gain respect for your classmates and yourself. You improve. Your standards for yourself improve. You become even better and gain confidence. That peace of self is reflected in the way you treat others.

It's this grandious idea that somehow

[Ray Pina]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...


This is exactly right. And the more I train I look at it as sound business practice in the U.S. Most of these sifu can not compete in producing quality fighters compared to boxing, kick boxing and MMA gyms. So they play up the Chinese angle.

This in turn adds fuel to the fire because CMA doesn't attract fighters. Or can't hold onto them.

[Black Jack II]

What Kung Fu schools have you been going to? I have never seen a Kung Fu school where you were not conditioned to the hilt in every possible way, nor have I seen one that does not free fight, spar and fight.

Everyone always talks about these mythical schools, but I have never actually seen one.

Are you high or just wanting to start a side line conversation?

You know for a FACT that the above statement is not true.

[Rockwood]

Ray, I think you are confusing martial art for sport.

In other words, sport has very specific parameters. Martial art has things in it that can be useful in very broad parameters.

Think of soldiers in wartime. Or farmers, or elderly/sickly people seeking a way of improving health. Chinese martial arts have been used for many, many different purposes over the years.

Martial art can be applied to sport as you suggest. CMA contains many useful things within it, and sport fighting is one of them. A guy like Sifu Ross uses CMA for ring fights. Others use it for other purposes.

Most of those purposes are relevant, let others do what they will. They aren't seeking the same goals you are. Why try to force them to fit in your box of what you think CMA is supposed to be? This is art, there is not an objective standard!

In sport there is one specific standard for that sport. For art the value is in the eye of the beholder and if some kid in a strip mall is loving his new green belt then don't begrudge him!

-Jess O'Brien

[mantis108]

Most of what holds back TCMA is rooted in what in China would be called "Feudalism" ie traditional Chinese culture and values.....

Features of feudalistic thinking would include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc...

Well, I have nothing personal against you, IKFMDC, but you just sounded like one of those CPC maniacs even right down to the term "Feudalism". I understand where you are coming from but please check your facts what Feudalism really means in ancient China. It's not the same Feudalism that west had. BTW, what political system doesn't fit "include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc..." Like the "democracy" of US of A is holier than any other political system? :eek: Please.... :rolleyes:

Which nation don't have exaggerated sense of importance? It's like saying what holds Pankration back has to do with Greece's exaggerated sense of importance (or lack there of), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc.... So it became a watered down version (ie Collegian wrestling). That kind of argument just doesn't make sense.

It is easy to use label to create a sense of shortcoming of an art or a system. This is exactly what the PRC did. I can't believe you actually bought it from the PRC people who sell you the San Shou thing. Oh well, I guess I gave you too much credit.

[lkfmdc]

Dude, I have a Master's Degree in Chinese history from the Elliott School of International Affairs, I know better than ANYONE here that the term "Feudalism" isn't correct for China (they never had a feudal system). But as I ALREADY noted, that is what it has been called none the less.....

The idea that traditional Chinese cultural traits has held back CHINA AS A WHOLE isn't communist. It dates back to May 4th movement and great thinkers like Lu Hsun....

In the end of the Qing Dynasty, China struggled to accept modernization. Are you going to argue this? Did the 100 days movement not FAIL because of Chinese cultural traits?

Was not China sectarian? Affiliations based upon family name, clan, village, region or province? As opposed to national origin?

PLEASE, if you want to really debate this, I'll be happy to bury you in it :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Well, I have nothing personal against you, IKFMDC, but you just sounded like one of those CPC maniacs even right down to the term "Feudalism". I understand where you are coming from but please check your facts what Feudalism really means in ancient China. It's not the same Feudalism that west had. BTW, what political system doesn't fit "include an exaggerated sense of importance (ie China is the "middle" and no need to look outside Chinese tradition), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc..." Like the "democracy" of US of A is holier than any other political system? :eek: Please.... :rolleyes:

Which nation don't have exaggerated sense of importance? It's like saying what holds Pankration back has to do with Greece's exaggerated sense of importance (or lack there of), superstition, sectarianism, secrecy, corruption, etc.... So it became a watered down version (ie Collegian wrestling). That kind of argument just doesn't make sense.

It is easy to use label to create a sense of shortcoming of an art or a system. This is exactly what the PRC did. I can't believe you actually bought it from the PRC people who sell you the San Shou thing. Oh well, I guess I gave you too much credit.

In all fairness, the PRC did not invent the argument that traditional chinese culture held back China, it became a very popular view among many different political factions at the end of the Imperial era, so much so that one further attempt to found a new dynasty failed because of the accepted view that imperial China was too old fashioned to function in the new political realities.

Politically, Confucianism DID put a stranglehold on progress, because the Confucians were trying to force everything into the Confucian paradigm without being able to change that paradigm, and so placed arguing the point above solving the problems, all while China was being split up among foreign powers.

And, as was earlier stated, it sounds good to blame communism, until one realizes that most of the longest established kung fu teachers in the states were probably from the GMD controlled parts of China, and were probably as opposed to communism as McCarthy was, possibly more so.

Additionally, at the time these ideas were taking root, Western powers and Japan probably didn't lack an exaggerated sense of importance, but, unlike Imperial China, that sense of importance didn't prevent them from stealing good ideas and technology from each other, whereas those in politics in China of a Confucian persuasion actually did spend a long time preventing China from adopting modern methods solely because they weren't Confucian/Chinese enough, and it was ironically certain local governors/warlords who actually were likely to face modern foreign forces who began to adopt modern weapons, without enough backing from the ministers, who were too busy debating what was Confucian and Chinese enough to be accepted.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Are you high or just wanting to start a side line conversation?

You know for a FACT that the above statement is not true.

Reply] every martial arts school I have ever been in did heavy conditioning, sparing, and fighting. When I was at master Abatte's school in the early 90's, we conditioned almost till we puked, and there was a ring set up right in the back of the classroom.

When I was at Master John Tsai's school, we conditioned like crazy. My abs still hurt to this day, 18 years later from some of the crazy levels of conditioning we used to do. They had guys fighting in the midwest Kick Boxing circuits as well. I wasn't there long, but I remember the guys above me sparring often.

When I was at Iron Fist West, we conditioned like mad, and sparred just about every class.

Looking back on it, I don't see any school I was ever at that didn't have ripped, built instructors teaching, and seriously conditioned students as well.

Hell, even though the techniques were all compliant, even Chung Moo Quan conditioned till we dropped.

Everyone I ever met form Golden Mountain was well conditioned and in phenomenal shape as well.

The guys running Allstar Kung fu on rt 59 are in excellent shape. I don't know about thier fight program, bt when I spoke to them they told me they do san shou, so I'd bet they are the same as any other school I have been in.

Heck, even guys i just worked with on the parks did lots of conditioning and geared up for full resistive sparing and fighting.

So actually looking back on it, I really can't say i have any direct experience with Kung Fu schools that don't train just as hard as MMA schools do.

[SPJ]

3 things;

1. central vs local control. This is a debate or dilema since Qin or the first emperor/dynasty.

a. if China under one rule, there will be no wars among factions/kingdoms. It has been so for hundreds of years during a weak zhou. That included spring autumn and warring states. People sufferred wars upon wars.

at his time, Kong Fu Zi proposed an ideal society that every one takes his place in an ideal society. Father is father, son is son, King is king and minister is minister. meaning minister likes to stay as a minister and not become the next king by assasinating his king.---

KFZ's idea was never accepted or adopted during his life time.

b. more local control meaning a weak central government or ruling court. China is way too big for one person to rule it all. during Qing, the last dynasty, I think that it is Yong Zhen or Kang Xi, he actually read all the reports from over 6000 local officials and keep close contact or approve or discuss proposals. Wow, when do you get to sleep like 3 am in the morning?

--

2. Kong Fu Zi idea is good that people will be content and more "obedient" subjets or shun ming. So any form of government (in China) would like to use it as a political main stream idea. It places trusts in the leader or leading party that, it is the great father that would takes care of everyone.

It was debated, b/c the nationalist party was about to overthrow the Qing's rule.

--

even today, CPC is gladly to resume KFZ idea and embraces it in a big way. They found the grand grand--- child of KFZ and celebrated KFZ's birthday every year. again so that we may have shun ming.

3. Wushu as the ways promoted today by PRC may need many things to improve or to be corrected. But at least, it is funded by the state, talents are sought after and training starting at tender age in wushu academy.

--

Wushu as a cultural thing, physical eduation or even gym events, well it may not go far beyond its border.

--

back to regular programs.

;)

[KC Elbows]

3 things;

1. central vs local control. This is a debate or dilema since Qin or the first emperor/dynasty.

a. if China under one rule, there will be no wars among factions/kingdoms. It has been so for hundreds of years during a weak zhou. That included spring autumn and warring states. People sufferred wars upon wars.

at his time, Kong Fu Zi proposed an ideal society that every one takes his place in an ideal society. Father is father, son is son, King is king and minister is minister. meaning minister likes to stay as a minister and not become the next king by assasinating his king.---

KFZ's idea was never accepted or adopted during his life time.

b. more local control meaning a weak central government or ruling court. China is way too big for one person to rule it all. during Qing, the last dynasty, I think that it is Yong Zhen or Kang Xi, he actually read all the reports from over 6000 local officials and keep close contact or approve or discuss proposals. Wow, when do you get to sleep like 3 am in the morning?

--

2. Kong Fu Zi idea is good that people will be content and more "obedient" subjets or shun ming. So any form of government (in China) would like to use it as a political main stream idea. It places trusts in the leader or leading party that, it is the great father that would takes care of everyone.

It was debated, b/c the nationalist party was about to overthrow the Qing's rule.

--

even today, CPC is gladly to resume KFZ idea and embraces it in a big way. They found the grand grand--- child of KFZ and celebrated KFZ's birthday every year. again so that we may have shun ming.

3. Wushu as the ways promoted today by PRC may need many things to improve or to be corrected. But at least, it is funded by the state, talents are sought after and training starting at tender age in wushu academy.

--

Wushu as a cultural thing, physical eduation or even gym events, well it may not go far beyond its border.

--

back to regular programs.

;)

I believe the universe would fold in upon itself if a day went by in which you failed to provide a list of interesting items related closely and loosely to a topic.

Remember, if one day, you fail, the whole universe dies.

No pressure, though.

[SPJ]

as far as Chinese politics ago.

1. I am not for a strong central rule. I am for more local control.

so I am against one person, one family or one party rule.

2. MA related activity would be from the people for the people or grass root.

I do not believe that a government regulated activity would do much one way or the other way.

in short, the government system and rule has nothing to do with MA activity.

--

the world would still spin no matter what.

--

:D

[golden arhat]

omg i think i saw RD actually use the "quote" function


:eek:

[monji112000]

Been studying economics lately.

Was thinking maybe CMA has been influenced negatively by China's recent past, mainly a closed off, non-competitive central planned system.

Likewise, MMA is as free a market as you can get. Bring whatever you want and the competition itself will define the standard and weed out the garbage.

so who is the capitalist?
(don't try and tell me free-market and capitalism is the same.. LOL back to economics 101 for you!)

[SimonM]

Im tempted to jump in and say I’m actually very much for a communist type government, but then I was reminded I am surrounded by Americans ;). No-one might ever want to speak with me again. :cool: :D

Don't worry Eddie, you are not alone.

<signed the pinko, commie, canuck>

[Ray Pina]

Ray, I think you are confusing martial art for sport.... Martial art has things in it that can be useful in very broad parameters... Chinese martial arts have been used for many, many different purposes over the years.

For art the value is in the eye of the beholder and if some kid in a strip mall is loving his new green belt then don't begrudge him!

I don't consider martial arts a sport, though I think it is extremely important for a martial artists to put himself in situations where he finds himself competing... putting his training to the test against others. Whether it's in the ring, kwoon, gym or street. You need to test drive the technique.... especially in CMA where lots of claims are made but there is no proof (double leg takedowns work and we now it because you can turn on Spike TV and watch it done well all night)

Martial arts are for combat. Health is the side benefit.

Now for the young green belt, if he's a kid you can't blame him. He should enjoy his green belt. But there's a difference between a Boy Scout badge for camping in a park with secure facilities (water/bathroom) and getting the Medal of Honor in Iraq. One is not so easy to get. A testament to rising above and beyond.

I say it all the time, but martial arts are not for everyone. If you're not getting punched, kicked, slammed, choked and hurt ... there will be times you're in pain.... you're not training right. Think of what it would take to turn a man into a warrior who uses only his body and mind..... THAT'S MARTIAL ARTS.

[Rockwood]

Ray, I'd rather say, "THAT'S PART OF MARTIAL ARTS..." :)

I'm just pushing my viewpoint that martial arts is a wide field and there is room for a lot of different people to get something out of it. It's been that way for a long time now, and redefining it to fit my particular needs at the moment is a bit short sighted.

What if you are injured or get sick, martial arts can help you but not if you are getting choked and kicked and sparring full force.

What if you are force marched 25 miles a day during wartime, there's no time for jump rope or heavy bagwork or fighting full contact. But again, martial arts can be useful during warfare.

There's a reason why so many things are included under the holistic banner of Chinese martial arts. There is fitness, fighting, meditation, healing, anatomy, "chi", cultural information and more. Not everyone will work on all these aspects, and indeed, no one could master them all in one lifetime.

Not to say that there isn't some lame stuff picked up along the way as well. But don't be too quick to judge, someday when you aren't in the prime of life you might find those other aspects suddenly very useful.

Anyways, just my thoughts based on what some people have told me.

-Jess O

[Ray Pina]

I understand your point and I appreciate Chinese culture more than most; love it actually.

So far I've broken my ribs, nose and wrist (twice). I don't know what I did to my shoulder before my last fight because I didn't go to the doctor but after a heavy day of surfing or training it gets real tight and clicks a bit. I have full range of motion but it's uncomfortable. It's getting better but it's been like 8 or 9 months.

I never stopped training during any of that. Just adjusted my training, worked on what I could.

When I'm older, maybe like 45, I'll stop fighting and if I have kids teach. But by then I'll have a lot of experience. I can hang my gloves up with pride. I'll hopefully still train the same way though.

I don't know. No matter how I wrap my hands around it the training is still the training. And though methods may vary there's a right way to train and a wrong way. I see guys in their 50s doing hardcore jiu-jitsu still. Training till they gas.

In my mind, and maybe I'm wrong, I separate the study of medicine (which also seems like a lifetime pursuit in its own) from the study of combat. In way I think that's part of the problem, the myth of these great men that have unbeatable fighting skills, but meditate for months on the mountain and can spit some dirt in their palm, rub it, and cure cancer. It's romantic as all hell. But because I train I'm healthy and in the rare case I'm sick I'm going to someone who's gone to medical school. Now, when I want to learn a fighting system, I go to someone who has spent just as much time fighting as that doctor has studying.

I have no time for shifty logic anymore. I lost considerable time with nonsense.

[mantis108]

a. if China under one rule, there will be no wars among factions/kingdoms. It has been so for hundreds of years during a weak zhou. That included spring autumn and warring states. People sufferred wars upon wars.

at his time, Kong Fu Zi proposed an ideal society that every one takes his place in an ideal society. Father is father, son is son, King is king and minister is minister. meaning minister likes to stay as a minister and not become the next king by assasinating his king.---

KFZ's idea was never accepted or adopted during his life time.

KFZ only saw himself as the preserver of Dao but is recognized by some even today as the inheritor of Dao, which is the combination of the wisdom, teaching and lineage of the long line of ancient sage-kings. During the time of the sage-kings it is the development of culture rather than the rule of law that drive the society. It is important to remember that before KFZ time there was no distinction between Daoism (Dao jia) and Confucianism (Ru Jia) or other schools for that matter. Technically all are considered Ru Zhe (learned or scholar). Both Daoism and Confucianism acknowledge and recognize the wisdom and teachings of the long line of sage-kings which started with the legendary Fu Xi (approx. 2852 - 2738 BCE) and ended with Zhou Wu Wang and/or his brother Zhou Gong (around 1066 BCE). The difference between the 2 schools is that Confucius believes in the importance of social system and sees himself as the guardian of Dao; whereas, Lao Zi believes that Dao can not be sought without and social system is a manifestation of corruption of human nature rather than the realization of Dao. Ru and subsequently Ru Jia professed in six subjects - Li (ritual), Le (music/arts), She (archery), Yu (Charioteering), Shu (Literature), and Shu (mathematics). These are collectively known as Liu Shu (six arts). Ru Zhe, who were nobles, in general were taught this But KFZ in an effort to preserve the teachings of the sage-kings, he edited them into 6 classics and taught them as Liu Yi (six cultivations), which includes the oldest and most complex of them - Yijing (classic of change). He also open up schools to commoners. He claimed to have 3000 students of which 72 were outstanding. He was deemed as too idealistic. At a time of "international" intrigue where self preservation out weights self perfection, his career suffers a great deal but he managed to sow the seed of the Confucius movement that even influences Chinese people today.


b. more local control meaning a weak central government or ruling court. China is way too big for one person to rule it all. during Qing, the last dynasty, I think that it is Yong Zhen or Kang Xi, he actually read all the reports from over 6000 local officials and keep close contact or approve or discuss proposals. Wow, when do you get to sleep like 3 am in the morning?

Well, the problem isn't that simple but I just want to say that even though Yuan dynasty (Mongolians) and Qing dynasty (Manchurians) are not Han tribe; therefore not Chinese per se, they are considered as dynasty rulers of China because they "respect" the Chinese system, conventions and the administration of Ru Jia bureaucracy. One might even say they are more Chinese rulers than the CPC.

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2. Kong Fu Zi idea is good that people will be content and more "obedient" subjets or shun ming. So any form of government (in China) would like to use it as a political main stream idea. It places trusts in the leader or leading party that, it is the great father that would takes care of everyone.

It was debated, b/c the nationalist party was about to overthrow the Qing's rule.

Confucianism is meant to focus on the positive of social structure and is therefore deemed as providing stability for the country. But this is superficial benefit only. This doesn't mean that it is only practical in nature. It is also quite pragmatic when it comes to self perfection. Philosophy wise, it's quite close to Kantian philosophy but it perhaps provides more in terms of the recognition of infinite mind and moral metaphysics.

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even today, CPC is gladly to resume KFZ idea and embraces it in a big way. They found the grand grand--- child of KFZ and celebrated KFZ's birthday every year. again so that we may have shun ming.

Well, actually CPC is trying to use Marxism especially dialectical materialism to reinterpret ALL Chinese thoughts. Confucianism happens to be one of them. This is the most sinister of CPC actions yet. If you look at their "scholars" trying to reinterpret more like reinventing the classics such as the Yijing, you will feel sick to the stomach of the BULLSH!!T. They are FU CKing sneaky!


3. Wushu as the ways promoted today by PRC may need many things to improve or to be corrected. But at least, it is funded by the state, talents are sought after and training starting at tender age in wushu academy.

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Wushu as a cultural thing, physical eduation or even gym events, well it may not go far beyond its border.

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Once again, Wushu is FUBAR to the Nth degree. It's idea is to numb your senses at best and turns you into a living dead at worst. There is nothing martial or Chinese about it. Please for the sake of Kung Fu, pay attention to the BS scheme of fragmentation by sportification of martial academia. Regular folks don't care that Kung Fu has it roots in the teaching of the sage-kings which is why we should study Confucianism. Many of the Kung Fu masters gave up their lives to protect Chinese values and thoughts through out history. Nowadays, it is nothing but a past time for most. That's fine but as a Kung Fu stylist, as we see Kung Fu is a life style, we should know better. If people don't mind to be zombies, what do I care? In times of foreign oppressions, it is the value of the teachings and those who understood the importance and sacrifice their lives for it that saved China. Now as a Chinese living in Canada and in relative peace, I see the true value of the teachings when I see the tyranny and oppression suffered by the natives who where rob of their culture. The CPC is wolf in sheep's clothing. It will be a tough one to beat for the sake of true Chinese values, philosophies and thoughts. All I can say is the mind is a terrible thing to waste, be mindful always, my friend.

Mantis108

[Kevin Huang]

MMA is NOT a free market!

There are rules, and people have to abide by them. It's not "anything goes". MMA fighters deal with a very closed system - that of ring rules. And those rules vary from state to state, depending on what state government allows.

Communist China is similarly restrictive in its wushu permittances.

However, most of the kung fu practiced around the world is NOT from Communist China - for now.