I want to buy a Jian's/Gim's- but which one???

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Hey guy's/ladies,
I'm thinking about buying a nice live edge sword and I was wondering if anyone was familiar with the Gong Chang Seven Star Sword Damascus series. It is a sanmei steel blade construction the design looks nice and appeals to me.

Plus kung fu direct has it for a decent price for a Damascus blade. I am happy with most dragon well stuff.

http://www.kungfudirect.com/proddetail.asp?prod=hcdtcs&cat=17

The other ones I was thinking about was Cold Steel's Gim. I hear the weight is a bit too heavy but it is well constructed. I have found that one for 249$ at true swords (cheapest reliable site I know of)

http://www.trueswords.com/cold-steel-battle-ready-sword-p-1960.html

Now aside from Hanwei who I like don't get me wrong...I have only one other sword manufacturer I was looking at-- and no sword in particular because they all look AMAZING---Zhisword

http://www.zhisword.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20&zenid=96781074eede3c626373b778f09ea2b1

I have never had a "real"sword only those stainless 440 ones and of course spring steel wushu weapons that I train with or cheapy 40/50 dollar types, so if I am going to fork over the bread for a nice sword.... I want to be sure I don't screw up and by some hunk-of-junk----any info is appreciated--

Oh yeah-- I want to stay under $400 if possible---

[Sifu Darkfist]

i had the Cold Steel version i gave it to GM Yang cause he is a sword lover.
The blade is the real deal, the construction is excellent the only major downfall is handle length it is too short to be considered a real Jian or Gim as they like to call it. You cannot get the write snp with the handle that short for northern jian styles (traditional) such as kwen wu, or san cai, qui jian, and of course its way too short for tang lang jian.

if you can get over that flaw it is otherwise flawless

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Hey man that's good to know since I primarily focus on stuff like San Cai Jian and taoist sword forms mainly I don't think cold Steel's weapon will make me beam with glee........I have been thinking about this sword from master Forge-I read that I can get it unsharpened and for 250$(with shipping) its actually a great deal- Plus I like that Han dynasty look...
here check this one out Scroll down for the pics of the blade-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180233574591#ebayphotohosting

[SimonM]

Am I alone in applying Jian techniques to the arming sword?

(I prefer to test the balance of a blade before I buy it and there are only two jian available at the local sword store, a $1000 cas/iberia product and Adam Hsu's unmitigated piece of crap).

I ask because I have been using an arming sword, with a shorter hilt, more pronounced taper and wider forte than a jian without difficulty for my jian practice. If anything my single-handed sword technique has improved with the different blade.

For the record my arming sword of choice is the Windlass Steelcraft Naumburg Sword.

As Wilhelm Von Camburg lived in the late 1000's the statue at Naumburg Cathedral was most likely errected somewhere between 1086 and 1186... and the sword is patterned off the statue. The church was consecrated in 1044 and saw improvements and additions up until 1884.

[YMC]

Have you looked into http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/

For ~500.00 you can get a jian that handles just like an antique.

[David Jamieson]

cas iberia/hanwei are nice. probably one of the best...no offense mam (http://www.martialartsmart.net/451013.html). :p

http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH2006

[David Jamieson]

Have you looked into http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/

For ~500.00 you can get a jian that handles just like an antique.

Guy, that site runs stupid scripts that try to take over your browser with quick time plug ins. I would recommend that nobody go to that site based on that alone. Lord knows what other kind of phishing is prevalent there.

that is bad netiquette my man.

[YMC]

Guy, that site runs stupid scripts that try to take over your browser with quick time plug ins. I would recommend that nobody go to that site based on that alone. Lord knows what other kind of phishing is prevalent there.

that is bad netiquette my man.

Well, I don't know if there is phishing going on on the site. As far as I know the plug in is for a clip of actual tatami cutting with a jian. The owner is an antiques dealer in Chinese arms that is well respected among the ethnographic arms collecting community. I have purchased a few pieces from him so that take if for what it's worth. I just suggested him be most CMA people have never handled real jian or dao and so have no comparison withwhich to make when buying modern replicas. So I apologize if you think I'm party to some scam.

[The Willow Sword]

Angel sword makes the REAL thing. All those other sword links are not made from quality Steel nor are they crafted to take any sort of clashing or punishment nor do they posess the real tempering of a real sword.

http://www.angelsword.com/chinese/chinese_home.php

They are expensive but you get what you pay for. Angel Swords will chop most of those other blades in half.(ive seen it done.) They Demo at our Local Renaissance Festival here in Texas and they do tempering/Hardness tests. They get "quality swords" from other manufactorers and and show you just how crappy they really are.
Anyway there it is.

Peace,TWS

[David Jamieson]

Well, I don't know if there is phishing going on on the site. As far as I know the plug in is for a clip of actual tatami cutting with a jian. The owner is an antiques dealer in Chinese arms that is well respected among the ethnographic arms collecting community. I have purchased a few pieces from him so that take if for what it's worth. I just suggested him be most CMA people have never handled real jian or dao and so have no comparison withwhich to make when buying modern replicas. So I apologize if you think I'm party to some scam.

the poorly implemented plugins that take over a browser are not thought out and generally bad web design. If the guy doesn't want to be thought of as a scammer, he should give the choice to the user about what to activate on the page and what not to activate.

[SimonM]

I just suggested him be most CMA people have never handled real jian or dao and so have no comparison withwhich to make when buying modern replicas.

Speak for yourself.

Just my jian collection is stuck in China at the moment.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Angel sword makes the REAL thing. All those other sword links are not made from quality Steel nor are they crafted to take any sort of clashing or punishment nor do they possess the real tempering of a real sword.
Well I do really appreciate the info however it's a bit out of my price range (at $1400-8000) A-- and B these swords look like superbly high quality contemporary blades which makes me think they are actually intended for practical use, kinda scary but the thing is I don't doubt the practicality or durability of the swords just the way they look is too modern for me..however if I was rich ---oh heck yeah I'd buy one....


Have you looked into http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/

For ~500.00 you can get a jian that handles just like an antique.

I had no trouble with this site on Firefox. It was a video of a guy cutting a tatami mat with a Jian. Oh and they seem to have some very nice swords there too. All out of my meager price range but definitely a site to bookmark for later. Thank you again..

[SimonM]

Check out www.reliks.com for many good historical replicas though only a few Chinese.

[The Willow Sword]

Did not mean to seem "Snooty" about the Angel swords. It's just that i have Wielded them and felt the difference in play and practice as opposed to the other brands. Not that the other sites dont produce quality weapons,some do actually and are affordable. I dont own an Angel sword but i am saving up for one of their Jians. I am a sword collector and i have a few in my closet. Two of which i used to practice with and they were real combat blades, sharp and able to take punishment.

Museum replicas carries pretty decent quality weapons(most are from the Windlass Steelcrafts line(which operates out of India). Museum replicas are out of Atlanta Georgia. i have Two of their swords, one a chinese broadsword or Dao.(they dont make them anymore) and i have a Crusaders European Broadsword(for my Ren Faire Costume). As for a good Tai chi sword that is affordable and a pretty decent weapon to wield in practice, I reccomend Kris cutlery. A company out of the Phillipines and they do a good job on their swords, i have one of thier Gims. it is lightweight, fast as hell and very durable not to mention sharp.

Here is the link. http://kriscutlery.com/documents/chinese.html

When we talk about the "Snap" of the sword when doing a form, i have found that the angel swords give you the most snap due to their flexability. The Kris cutlery Gim that i have can provide that same snap but the blade is a little stiffer(but not so stiff that you cant whip it about).

Maybe the Kris Cutlery Weapons are more in your $$$ range. Trust me they are excellent quality.
Peace,TWS

[SimonM]

TWS do you own any Windlass blades - the renfair one? I have one and find it provides the best snap of any of my swords (including my longquan blades presently stored in China). If you have how does your windlass compare to the angel blades for snap?

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Did not mean to seem "Snooty" about the Angel swords.
No,no, not at all. I didn't think that you seemed snooty. I have been looking around the web like crazy myself at all kinds of swords that I can afford and I can tell that those are some very nice blades. I came across a Jian on Steel Source that I think is made by windlass cutlary and they seem to be trying to sell off their remaining stock

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mr500796.htm

thats cheap 135$ for a high carbon steel blade:) and it looks OK like I said before I like that style.


When we talk about the "Snap" of the sword when doing a form, i have found that the angel swords give you the most snap due to their flexability. The Kris cutlery Gim that i have can provide that same snap but the blade is a little stiffer(but not so stiff that you cant whip it about).

I have a the old super floppy competition wushu Jians and to be honest I'm sick of the spring steel snappiness and it's not something I am looking for in sword. I want a sword that will behave realistically when I practice and I believe I can't use my old sword in competition anymore anyways. I think swords have to be able to support their own weight when stood up on the ground with the new standards.

[SimonM]

There is a difference between snap and a whippy sword made from wushu steel.

A sword with a good snap will seem to spring from position to position in your hand with notable positive tactile response. If, however, you stab somebody the sword won't bend.

[The Willow Sword]

The Two Windlass Steelcrafts blades i have are the "Chinese Barbarian sword"(they dont make this one anymore) description: like a darn dao but with a longer handle for two handed wielding. the blade is tough and i actually need to get it reshaped along the edge and cleaned up(hehe i started to use it to chop weeds and small branches in my yard. In My training days i used it as my practice sword.

The Other one i have is the Sword featured in the Movie "Kingdom of Heavan" the one that Liam Neeson used and then Orlando bloom. Its a crusaders sword. European broadsword.(sword of Ibelin)

The Tai chi sword i have is from Kris Cutlery( i linked it in my previous post)

here it is again. http://kriscutlery.com/documents/chinese.html

As for comparison to the Angel swords for snap, there really is no comparison. They are made so well and have a long lasting tone and ripple effect when you snap the blade, it literally vibrates your arm. I guess mainly because the weapon is full tang and the tang is just as tempered as the edged part of the blade ( i had a rare opportunity to whip one around at the ren fest, and they dont usually let just anyone fuk with their swords)mainly because they are sharp as hell and will slice right through you if you are not careful .
The Kris cultery one i have is full tang(thankfully,but it is not tempered like the edged part is, which would make it weaker if it actually clashed against something)
Most of these other "quality blades" have either a metal dowel rod tig welded to the sword or the tang is not tempered along with the rest of the blade. it was just held by its metal grip to be put in the fire and in the water and whatever else the process is you do to mass produce semi-decent weapons.

Here is the crusader sword by Windlass that i have(i dont believe they make this one anymore either) http://www.windlass.com/products/kingdomofheaven/


Peace,TWS

[SimonM]

Haven't taken my windlass apart yet so I don't know for sure but unless the salesman was lying to me the tang is NOT a metal rod tig-welded to the blade. I say this because I asked about that very problem after that last time.

I was practicing with a jian I bought at Shaolin Temple and it literally came apart in my hand because there was too much stress on the weld where the blade met the tang and it snapped.

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Oh that sucks, I would be worried about performing a demonstration or something and having the blade fly off and whack someone.

I most certainly want a full tang sword thats for sure. I have been thinking allot about the Zhi Forge swords are either of you guys familiar with these?:confused:

I like this one in particular for 299$ so with shipping $350 I want a sword to practice with so I am thinking it's probably best to by one like for practice now. Then save up for a $700-1500 live blade of high quality for display.

heres the sword It comes with a bag too which is pretty sweet.Scroll the page down to see all the pics.

http://www.zhisword.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=177

Its folded with a 55 hardness. Oh and btw what is good hardness rating?

[The Willow Sword]

The Rockwell scale characterizes the indentation hardness of materials through the depth of penetration of an indenter under a major load on a material sample and compared to the penetration made by a minor load.(this is the short Wiki definition)

Now the Hardness of Steel in swords can be a tad misleading. One will see a sword with a Rockwell Hardness of say 55. Now that is a good hardness rating for a blade, HOWEVER, if the whole blade is a hardness of 55 it better be a real short one, like a knife. other wise you try to clash that thing with anything and it will most likely fracture and break. A good tempered Sword will have a relatively softer middle(springy) and a hard edge(to hold the sharpness). Most traditionally made japanese swords have this characteristic where they are folded many times to get that springy and durable feel to them(so they can stand up to cutting armour and flesh and clashing with other blades) the outer edge of the sword will; be harder than the inner body so that it can hold an edge.

IN the case of your Sword, No_surrender, they say the blade is folded and has a hardness rating of 55. Well, How many times is the blade folded? prolly just once or twice(for the price of that blade reflects how much went into the manufactoring of that particular blade) as for the hardness, i refer back to the original query i had about (if the whole blade is a hardness of 55 then it will be more brittle and prone to break if it is longer than say 10 inches) Also you gotta figure what kind of Metal is being used to make the sword.
Most places are using scrap metal(which can be good depending on the metal) Kris Cutlery,if i am not mistaken, is using the spring shocks off of Jeeps and other ATV's(all terrain vehicles) That metal is actually really good to use and they dont have to fold the metal or temper it too much. they just need to grind out a shape and do some other stuff to it( i tested mine once on an old box spring mattress) cut right through the wood and a few of the springs in the mattress in the first swipe,about 8 inches in) i pulled the blade out and the edge wasnt even damaged. thats how i knew that i had a good sword. If you go to the Windlass steel crafts site they have a video you can watch on how they make their weapons. its pretty cool.

IN retrospect, all this rambling doesnt change the fact that we dont fight with swords anymore and so wanting to have a sword to practice with,you can either spend your money on a collectors work of art,or you can spend not so much money on something that will at least stay together when you whip it around.

Im a sword nerd so i am going to be nerdy about it all and go for the collectors piece.

Peace,TWS

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Wow, you certainly know allot about swords thank you so much for the info.I have so many questions for you in the future but just one right now. Do you then having said all that think that the Master Zhi Sword from my last post would be a good sword for practice? I read that they can send it un-sharpened. Plus I think it's a good deal.

Also I do plan on eventually buying a very high quality sharpened sword when it is financially feasable but for now I just want something to practice, demo and maybe compete with that will behave more like a real sword and make people go "Man thats a pretty sweet sword!"-lol
:cool:

Thx again man, you have been very helpful!

[SimonM]

Prior to fold-forging technology bronze swords which were cast also managed multiple hardness blades by forming a central, soft core of bronze and then casting the harder edges around it.

[The Willow Sword]

Yeah man go for it.:) If that is the sword that "speaks to you" and it has the look you want and such, go for it, and YES have them send one Unsharpened. The blade will be more durable and last longer if it is not sharpened. (plus it is a practice weapon so you dont really need it sharpened anyway). UNLESS you want to join the ranks of Nerd'om.;) and get it sharpened:cool: (just dont disembowel yourself bro)
Peace,TWS

[GLW]

Be aware of the where and who of practicing with anything other than an unsharpenable blade.

State laws vary. For example, in Texas, the strict letter of the law says that swords are illegal. Funny how you can get a license for a carry concealed gun but a sword is verboten.

Now, they WILL cut you some slack if you are obviously carrying it to and from a martial arts practice or in a demo....but I wouldn't expect that slack if you were practicing in a park...even as a group.

Also, you need to be aware of where you are and who is around. I would personally never use live steel in a public demo. The chance of any small accident and litigation is there. I also would not use live steel in a regular class. We have always had at least one oblivious person in class who would walk in front of a sword going full speed. We take the approach that if you have the weapon, you are responsible for it and regardless of what the idiot does, you are to blame for any weapon injury....cuts down on er trips that way.

I have also come very close to having to open up a serious can of whupass on a person for messing with mine or other weapons that were not their own... that is bad enough with practice swords...but can be really a problem with live steel.

I have used live steel...a deceased friend has a very nice angel sword...and a few others. Of the ones I have used, the angel was the best.... I DO go out of my way to make sure that my practice blades are as close in feel to the live ones like the angel sword.

But...a few years ago my wife gave me a choice...an Angel sword or a motorcycle... The bike is in the garage right now.

[The Willow Sword]

a few years ago my wife gave me a choice...an Angel sword or a motorcycle... The bike is in the garage right now.


:D LOL! Yeah id prolly take the bike as well.

Peace,TWS

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Yeah I think I'm gonna go with my gut and buy the Zhi sword then...thanks for all the advise and yeah...I'd take the motorcycle too--lol

[uki]

personally i have a qi jian, forged from a single billet of steel, rayskin handle. cas hanwei forge dalian, china. retails at about 600 bucks... solid steel, handle and all... the rayskin is the only other material.:)

[No_SuRReNDeR]

Yeah Ive seen those on WLE they look like very nice swords, I like the Hanwei stuff.:)

[uki]

Yeah Ive seen those on WLE they look like very nice swords, I like the Hanwei stuff.:)
i also have a cas iberia banshee from paul chen. very nice, simple. fits in the backpack with juggling clubs.

[GeneChing]

The only Damascus piece we offer is the Hanwei Damascus Tai Chi Sword (http://www.martialartsmart.net/451013.html). We carry swords from Dragon Well (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Dragon_Well_Forge.html), Shaolin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Shaolin_Temple_Forge.html)and Hanwei (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Hanwei_Forge.html), but truth be told, this forum doesn't run on higher end pieces. Nevertheless, have you seen our latest import from Dragon Well? The Emperor's Sword (http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-53.html) has a nice blade, although I'm not that into the fittings personally. For that price point, it's quite serviceable.

[SimonM]

Saw that advertised in the latest issue. Looks interesting. Still I'd like to try before I buy. ;)

[No_SuRReNDeR]

I found this one a while back...If i had a grand to spend it looks well worth it. Very much a "practical looking" Jian It's not to fancy with the Hushou and pomell but the blade is grooved and looks to be very nice Damascus steel. Tell me what you guys think. I believe the site is Mantis swords. I'm not sure but this Ming Dynasty sword may be a Hanwei.

:cool:

http://www.mantisswords.com/ming_sword.htm