The Bong Sau is Never 1st. Why is that?

[Lugoman]

I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. So why is the bong sau not to be used as a first move?

[LoneTiger108]

Sometimes it's the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of 'jiu sik' and individuals interpretation of a 'move'.

It's all in threes if you ask me... :rolleyes:

[donbdc]

I would use it first depending on the situation. It just isn't a block you can't leave it out there. Its great for an open relationship response to a jab. Boang lop punch.
Just my opininion. Try it and see, what the heck.
Don

[Almost A Ghost]

I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. So why is the bong sau not to be used as a first move?

The first reason is in the execution of the technique. The bong-sau is something you roll into after being meet with the proper amount of forward pressure from your opponent.

The second reason is because Wing Chun doesn't anticipate a punch like that. You're opponent moves, you move, and what happens happens. If you get rolled into a bong-sau you get rolled into a bong-sau.

[LoneTiger108]

Has anyone heard of the three treasures of Wing Chun?

Bong, tan and fook?

In other words, bong is followed by tan which is followed by fook which is followed by bong etc. This 'cycle' is sometimes referred to as a treasure because without fully understanding and training these three key positions in such a way you may have no flow whatsoever.

Change the order to bong, fook and tan and something else is happening ;)

Both ways are a yum yeurng (yin yang) and have opposite purposes.

[Lugoman]

Sometimes it's the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of 'jiu sik' and individuals interpretation of a 'move'.

It's all in threes if you ask me... :rolleyes:

This is why I don't waste my time here anymore.

[LoneTiger108]

This is why I don't waste my time here anymore.

Ok. Point taken.

In your opinion, what is the answer to your own question? You do have an answer I would hope?

[Iron-Man]

The Bong Sau is Never 1st. Why is that?

Possibly because the Bong is a reaction to pressure on your Jong or Guard so it will always be 2nd.

Or if you intend on throwing it out then it will be in transition from the Tan so it will still be 2nd.

No shame in coming 2nd :)

The Bong can Shear,Deflect,Press or lift depending on how you wish to react.

[LoneTiger108]

The Bong can Shear,Deflect,Press or lift depending on how you wish to react.

I wouldn't personally box bong sau into these four concepts as tan and fook can also be applied in such ways.

Am I the only one who sees a 'hook' punch deriving from bong?

I don't wait for any pressure to throw a hook, so in this instance the bong IS the first move. Although, thinking about it I have a bong lead jab too...

[Ali. R]

This is why the bong sao is never first; because no one really starts off with a jab or straight punch to the midsection, they mostly start off with a headshot…

The bong sao structure in most ‘Yip Man’ lineages doesn’t cover the head, we have other blocks that will work out just fine, the bong sao will work wonders with midsection defense too, where it helps that structure work the best in that position as most wing chun forms dictate...


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI
Circa: 1:32

Circa: 1:47

Circa: 2:00

Circa 2:12
And I have many more using an attacking bong. I respect for what people
believe. But I will always use and teach what works. It's just my nature. Now if someone can provide video where using the bong sao first doesn't work I can give my take on why it didn't.

[SAAMAG]

Phil, the first two instances I can see have reasoning, the latter two, I didn't see any reason for. Your guy seems to have a propensity for entering into range with the right bong instinctively...or did I not see it right?

[LoneTiger108]

The bong sao structure in most ‘Yip Man’ lineages doesn’t cover the head, we have other blocks that will work out just fine, the bong sao will work wonders with midsection defense too, where it helps that structure work the best in that position as most wing chun forms dictate...

Interesting that you mention 'Yip Man' lineage not covering the head with a bong sau. I'm not being picky here, but Lee Shing WAS from Yip Man, its just that he was an earlier student than most I believe. Have a stick crashing onto your head and tell me what 'seed' you prefer! :eek:

FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous, but hey I'm not here to tell you whats in what form as you're a Sifu yourself and must see what I'm saying here, surely?

Lineage isn't an issue here brother, it's all in interpretation of what I understand as simple 'rules' for beginners to grasp. Rules that do not define our style, but help you on your journey.

Looking at other Martial Arts, and even in White Crane styles a high bong sau is the first 'block' students learn. Tell a Shotokan Sensei that their aige-uke or gedan-berai isn't practical...

[Ali. R]

Interesting that you mention 'Yip Man' lineage not covering the head with a bong sau. I'm not being picky here, but Lee Shing WAS from Yip Man, its just that he was an earlier student than most I believe. Have a stick crashing onto your head and tell me what 'seed' you prefer! :eek:

FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous, but hey I'm not here to tell you whats in what form as you're a Sifu yourself and must see what I'm saying here, surely?

Lineage isn't an issue here brother, it's all in interpretation of what I understand as simple 'rules' for beginners to grasp. Rules that do not define our style, but help you on your journey.

Looking at other Martial Arts, and even in White Crane styles a high bong sau is the first 'block' students learn. Tell a Shotokan Sensei that their aige-uke or gedan-berai isn't practical...


Maybe I’ve should have bolded these words “Most ‘Yip Man’ lineages” not all… Oh my lord, forgive me if I said anything about White Crane!


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Bong sao is used if the line of your strike is X-ed, either spatially and or by contact ...

IOW the strike is the lead to attack as your answer to the situation...I hit , you happen to have impeded the line of that strike..I dont stop to lop etc..I just flip the arm x-ing mine left or right [ as chi-sao] and strike with Vu-> punch..if its stopped I can jut ...etc...lop is last resort if your delivering an attack, because it breaks the attack line your delivering....

"Bong isnt first" only implies we attack 1st by striking you, you then try to stop me :D ..All the techniques we do are symmetrical so we can attack the side presented and 'shut it down' using the following strikes tan/jum... in rotation as required each trained to use the corresponding forearm angles while striking

We can use bong to clear head shots , it just takes a certain distance to make the idea function or we have to lift the arm up , making it a redundant gesture at too great a distance, chasing hands.
The difference with WSLVT and others I have seen is that the bong sao is used not to block but to maintain an attack by deflecting the force of the incoming line of force sideways to our constant forwards entry to attack, by striking.....by chi-sao we maintain the right angles and mindless reactions to simply sweep the force off our centerlines ..the harder the force the more it moves ...the more wrist force is used the worse for the opponent , ergo chi-sao frowns on using forwards wrist force for feeling bs.

Some label Bong sao's High, Mid , Low...why not mid 3/4 turn etc...46 degrees west !...
Bong is an idea the arm angle is for the forearm to be able to 'slap' an arm away from our head torso , whatever. Its only relative to the attackers strike lines....

It can be first but only because its so fast the vu-sao is striking as the bong is lowering...the bong is only up to deliver the force of its displacing ability, not to jam .

If you analyze the SLT the 1st sections deal with primary strikes and methods to develop the 2 striking ideas...the latter section deals with 'sequences to maintain attacks by simple line clearing actions , all done in a partnership, bong is part of an attacking sequence to maintain the primary idea of delivering attacking actions......

A lot of the attacking is lost when too much chi-sao takes over as sticking hands , trapping and no development of strike lines and clearing lines , strike lines clearing lines , strike clear , strike clear...then we have each arm doing strike/clear in 1 beat, and the next strike /clear,...only resorting to a 2 handed response if the lead strike is stopped ...ergo ,,,

bong + Vu-sao =free striking hand
jut + Vu-sao =free striking hand
pak + Vu-sao =free striking hand
huen + Vu-sao =free striking hand
etc...

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, the first two instances I can see have reasoning, the latter two, I didn't see any reason for. Your guy seems to have a propensity for entering into range with the right bong instinctively...or did I not see it right?
Our fighters trained to try and fight with a parallel stance as opposed to a cross leg stance. In the first few fights they used the TWC entry successfully. When we got back to the ready room we noticed that the other fighters were watching the fights on TV monitors. We decided then to close with bong saos instead. The main purpose of these fights were to try and use specific WC techniques against resisting opponents. So yes,there was propensity for entering into range with the right bong. We wanted to test the bong close. If the opponent had been using a right arm/leg lead then it would have been a left bong. It's common knowledge Lei Tai circles that the best way to get a knockout is to the side of the headgear instead of the cage. That's why the guys attempted bong lop round punch. The bottom line is that our tactics worked very well. Common sense says if it works try it again. We'll try different WC "techniques" next time.

[Toby]

FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous ...Really? I've got none. In CK lots but in BJ only a low bong/tan combo and only in one section (comprising 6 reps of the combo).

[k gledhill]

Sometimes it's the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of 'jiu sik' and individuals interpretation of a 'move'.

It's all in threes if you ask me... :rolleyes:


the only stupid question is the one never asked....you might ask yourself why you have so much more... AND flag waving in your school...

Sometimes the more there is.... the less likely you will be to notice what is missing.

[Graychuan]

Really? I've got none. In CK lots but in BJ only a low bong/tan combo and only in one section (comprising 6 reps of the combo).

Hey, Toby, maybe the movement he is talking about in BJ is the one that we call the Fok/Fak Sao in the Woo system. The pinky side of the arm is up but the whole arm is extended out but this one still stays at collarbone or shoulder level. I can see how that could be loosly considered to be a high Bong-Sao...but in the Woo system we dont. Fak Sao and Bong Sao are not the same in our system. As far as CK and other forms...the elbow goes no higher that the collarbone for the Bong Sao.


Maybe this helps.:p

[Toby]

Hey, Toby, maybe the movement he is talking about in BJ is the one that we call the Fok/Fak Sao in the Woo system. The pinky side of the arm is up but the whole arm is extended out but this one still stays at collarbone or shoulder level. I can see how that could be loosly considered to be a high Bong-Sao...but in the Woo system we dont. Fak Sao and Bong Sao are not the same in our system.We've got a lan sao, which looks superficially a little bit like the bong sao (but completely different intent). This would be what comes near the beginning of CK after the double low palm strike where you turn and do a double "bar arm" pivoting to 3 sides. The "bar arm" is what we can lan sao in the Hong Kong Yip Man style I did, it's a horizontal arm out from the shoulder, elbow at 90°, wrist/forearm slightly rotated. What we call fak sao is different to lan sao. A double fak sao comes right after the last of the 3 lan saos, before the triple "arm break".

I still can't think of a place with a bong sao or lan sao in the two versions of BJ I've learnt (apart from the tan/bong combo I mentioned earlier). Both bong sao and lan sao are in both the versions of CK I've learnt. One version's got 18 bong saos and 12 lan saos off the top of my head.


As far as CK and other forms...the elbow goes no higher that the collarbone for the Bong Sao.Yep, same here. We've got man sao (unsure if that's the right term) that's sort of similar to a very high bong, with wrist higher than elbow higher than collarbone but it's a different move (and I don't really train it much - I've got different moves that I'd prefer in most cases).

[k gledhill]

I only have 1 bong :D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

"The Bong Sau is never first" is not an expression we have in our particular lineage. The expression we explore and apply is "The Bong does not Remain," ie. it's fleeting and temporary. I've often seen people deflect a punch with Bong Sau and then stick to the punching arm with it, trying to control their opponent's centre of gravity with pressure and angling. On noobs it works just fine. On vets, it's one of the quickest ways I've seen to be set up for a pretty definitive loss of initiative, either via a loss of balance, a shoulder or elbow lock, a strike attack to the exposed ribs, or some other action which takes advantage of the spatio-temporal opportunities offered by a remaining (read static, rigid) Bong Sau. I agree with those who have indicated that Bong, Tan, and Fuk work in concert - not in any particular order, but dynamically in response to the situation at hand.

Re the title of the thread again, it's important to understand whether or not one's understanding of Bong Sau is technique based or concept based. From a technique based perspective, I see people apply "The Bong Sau Shape" in a multitude of ways (often very baffling and funny.) From a conceptual base, The idea of a "Shouldered Arm Deflection" is by its very nature secondary, not primary.

Cheers
CSP

[Ali. R]

"The Bong Sau Shape" in a multitude of ways (often very baffling and funny.) From a conceptual base, The idea of a "Shouldered Arm Deflection" is by its very nature secondary, not primary.

Cheers
CSP

That’s very true, and that should apply with just about every movement of each form in the system, locking out the ideal of becoming a robot, when it’s the happy medium of technique and structure that helps keeps the principles alive within the system…:)


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Personally i would not use Bong as a first defencive action if i had much of a choice ( mainly with hand attacks...kicks are of course another story

Mainly because i believe in blocking and attacking at the same time which can only be done with a kick when using the bong. (for me at least) So its situation specific.

I have used Dai Bong against kicks as my first responce many times and i see no reason not to, its the best hand tool for the task IMO. so do it if it works !


The bong sao structure in most ‘Yip Man’ lineages doesn’t cover the head.

Ali, Due to the fact that almost all IP man lineages have Bong Sao block a center punch as a starting point in Chi Dan Sao. Which is blocking a punch to the head :rolleyes:.

So i see as being addresed right off the Bat and believe the structure is there. IMO its never been VT lore not to use Bong First though....


Has anyone heard of the three treasures of Wing Chun?
Bong, tan and fook?

Spence i have, and we often refer to Bong and Tan as brother sister actions, too much force on Bong turn to Tan to let the force go and vice versa.....but IMHO its not to say you cant use one first or that its in any specific order, right ?

Its more about personal preference isnt it ?

DREW

[Ali. R]

Ali, Due to the fact that almost all IP man lineages have Bong Sao block a center punch as a starting point in Chi Dan Sao. Which is blocking a punch to the head :rolleyes:.

Well that’s just a matter of opinion, because there should be no strikes to the head or anywhere else for that matter in “don chi sao”, mostly the ideal of supplementing energies in a way to bring on the right ideal for the “phoon sao” in which should follow thereafter…

When one thinks of hitting right from the very first standpoint on forward sensitivity training, one will be putting the cart ahead of the Philly, running away from the true understanding or ideal of Chi/Energy and Sao/ Block…

In that early stage of sensitivity training one should be focusing structure and energies, and not where the strike should go or maybe land…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Interesting POV Bro.

I have to admit, i constantly dont get you at all.
No one should just put thier punch out with no regard for direction and target. To me.... direction dictates force and sensitivity so they are entwined not mutually exclusive :rolleyes:

After all it is Fook Jum DA Tan DA Bong :o

IMHO i think this is why people (outsiders perhaps) think Chi Sao is a dead useless drill.

Im sure having never met you that you yourself Ali could and do train sensitivity and punching accuracy at the same time, within the same drills etc and its fairly easy to see in the billions of Chi Sao vids out there that newbies to Sifus when doing Chi Dan Sao punch Towards the head at the very least...

Addressing straight head shots with Bong Sao. Chin to forehead sure lineages/ students differ but its the head none the less bro.

Either way you cut it, it depends on what your given as to what action you may or may not want to use first to think otherwise IMO is limiting and will only serve to stiffle :D

DREW

[Ali. R]

I have to admit, i constantly dont get you at all. No one should just put thier punch out with no regard for direction and target. To me.... direction dictates force and sensitivity so they are entwined not mutually exclusive

There is nowhere in my post that I mention anything about not using direction, stop putting words in my mouth…

I distinctively said or talked about using forward sensitivity (early stages of “don chi sao”) training and not hitting or thinking about hitting, just supplementing and developing forward energies as long as the energies are being supplemented forward and not just towards the head and upwards…


Addressing straight head shots with Bong Sao. Chin to forehead sure lineages/ students differ but its the head none the less bro.

It’s a matter of opinion, just as the question you asked in your first post on this thread, in which contradicts these words; (part of your statement) "students differ but its the head none the less bro"…


Its more about personal preference isnt it ?

I’m sorry, I've already said this (below) four post up, and I don’t understand you also…


Either way you cut it, it depends on what your given as to what action you may or may not want to use first to think otherwise IMO is limiting and will only serve to stiffle?


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

the only stupid question is the one never asked....you might ask yourself why you have so much more... AND flag waving in your school...

Sometimes the more there is.... the less likely you will be to notice what is missing.

Firstly, I have asked myself about having 'so much more'.

Answer: I have no more than anyone else imo. I just translate things a little different due to the nature of what and how (& maybe when) why and who I learnt Wing Chun from.

The Flag was just a neccessity at the time, and a valued experience and health practice imo. It's also very well linked to basic Wing Chun concepts and postures ime.


Spence i have, and we often refer to Bong and Tan as brother sister actions, too much force on Bong turn to Tan to let the force go and vice versa.....but IMHO its not to say you cant use one first or that its in any specific order, right ?

Not exactly what I meant, but yes bong to tan to receive pressure but then I mean tan to fook to receive pressure AND fook to bong too! All used in the same way for the same purpose, IF that's what you intend.


the true understanding or ideal of Chi/Energy and Sao/ Block…

A prime example here. Ali, the character for 'Chi' (in a typical chisau context) is actually translated a 'sticky' not the common mandarin Chi as in Tai Chi (Cantonese Hei as in Hei Gung)

Sau also does not mean 'defend' as it is simply 'hand' and in some cases 'arm'. I write Sau 'defend' as Sao (circle of defence!?) Again, I did have to learn to read and write a little chinese and these two characters are different (as are the two Chi versions but don't get me started on Tai Chi/Dai Hei)

No disrespect here, but please! I hope we don't differ in our paths THAT much! :confused:


Its more about personal preference isnt it ?

Totally :D

[Ali. R]

And that sticky or stickiness that you just mention about “chi” is nothing more then energy in which is develop from two forward vector forces, creating this none static-flow of energy at the end of each vertices dealing with each persons ideal of structure while finding and honing in on this clinging or stickiness in which you believe is not the ideal of chi/energy when it comes to “chi sao”… Once again a matter of opinion...

I’m sorry, but for the rest I just couldn’t really understand it…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

And that sticky or stickiness that you just mention about “chi” is nothing more then energy in which is develop from two forward vector forces, creating this none static-flow of energy at the end of each vertices dealing with each persons ideal of structure while finding and honing in on this clinging or stickiness

I agree with that I think :eek: In reference to a Wing Chun interpretation. But we agree that chi is sticky, stickiness, clinging etc right?


in which you believe is not the ideal of chi/energy when it comes to “chi sao”… Once again a matter of opinion...

I’m sorry, but for the rest I just couldn’t really understand it…

Chi as in hei is the same, energy if you like. Chi sau as in sticky hand is right. Chi sao as in sticky defence is right. Hei sao as in energy defence is right.

What's not understandable?

Take care too.

[Kevin Huang]

In Yip Man chi sao (opponents facing each other, shoulders squared to each other), doing a bong sau can:

1) expose the ribs to a straight lead punch
2) be turned into a chicken-wing arm bar
3) lead to a throw or pull
4) leave the defender slightly out of position to punch or even block again
5) catch the incoming punch on one's face if the bong is not timed right

That said, we're talking CHI SAO here. It's a DRILL, not a real fight.

[Vajramusti]

Kevin- your analysis of Ip man bong sao was quite superficial. Your kung fu POV is quite dilletantish and you do seem to be trolling on most of the KFO forums.
Any motion can be vulnerable specially when it is not done well.
Hope that you settle down on whatever you are doing.
There is enough junk in forums without more trolling.

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

In Yip Man chi sao (opponents facing each other, shoulders squared to each other), doing a bong sau can:

1) expose the ribs to a straight lead punch
2) be turned into a chicken-wing arm bar
3) lead to a throw or pull
4) leave the defender slightly out of position to punch or even block again
5) catch the incoming punch on one's face if the bong is not timed right

That said, we're talking CHI SAO here. It's a DRILL, not a real fight.

Two things:
1. The Bong Never Stays
2. When I apply my Bong for that split second, I'll be putting enough pressure on the COM to hopefully rock the opponent, limb, etc.

[k gledhill]

Kevin- your analysis of Ip man bong sao was quite superficial. Your kung fu POV is quite dilletantish and you do seem to be trolling on most of the KFO forums.
Any motion can be vulnerable specially when it is not done well.
Hope that you settle down on whatever you are doing.
There is enough junk in forums without more trolling.

joy chaudhuri

I second Joys post, wrong thinking.

[Kevin Huang]

Gentlemen, you are welcome to your opinions.

I'm not here to fight any of you. Only share - and offer my opinions while reading yours.

So far, I'm learning a lot about kung fu and its practitioners by observing your actions on these forums. What you reveal to me about yourselves, I find MOST INTERESTING.

:)

[couch]

Gentlemen, you are welcome to your opinions.

I'm not here to fight any of you. Only share - and offer my opinions while reading yours.

So far, I'm learning a lot about kung fu and its practitioners by observing your actions on these forums. What you reveal to me about yourselves, I find MOST INTERESTING.

:)

Well, clearly, my Bong is better than yours.

Word 'em up.

[Iron-Man]

In Yip Man chi sao (opponents facing each other, shoulders squared to each other), doing a bong sau can:

1) expose the ribs to a straight lead punch
2) be turned into a chicken-wing arm bar
3) lead to a throw or pull
4) leave the defender slightly out of position to punch or even block again
5) catch the incoming punch on one's face if the bong is not timed right


1)Only if you dont know how and when to employ the Bong-which applies to you as this question would not arise if you did.
2)Possibly in a competition if you were baiting for it but very unlikely in a real fight
3)Applies to most extended arm positions
4)Wouldn't disagree, but if i were holding a knife then i would disagree
5)That is why the Bong works alongside the Wu..........again its your lack of understanding.

IMHO the Bong was not originally designed to be used in empty hand combat. After the WC ancestors stopped fighting with knifes and spears their predecesors obviously decided to keep and adapt the same tools. It is my guess that the Bong/Wu is an direct adaption of the Southern 'Butterfly Hands' hence the Butterfly knives.

[Kevin Huang]

1-5: I don't disagree either.

Any technique, no matter how well executed, has weaknesses. Any technique, no matter how well executed, can FAIL.

The trick is using the right technique at the right time.

[Grilo]

From my learning of wing chun Bong is not a good first attack as it cannot attack at the sametime. Second bong never stays as my sifu says so any concern over the movements weaknesses can be minimal. To reply to Kevins remark about 'every movement no matter how well executed has weaknesses' then you might as well go sit on the couch. Can fail and well executed do not go in the same sentence. If I react to your movement with the most perfection I can and its done well it cannot fail. It is when a move is done wrong or at the wrong time that it fails. But I also do not know how I can fail chasing your center.

I could sit here and biomechanically rip apart every move/technique from every art as it stands alone. But - time states that the move will evolve to fix the problem or another move will be created to prevent the weakness. Welcome to building a system. Tried tested and true. Wing Chun.

[Kevin Huang]

In a streetfight, any move can fail for a number of reasons.

You might do a perfect bong sau, but your assailant has a knife and he cuts you. Or the guy attacking you is so bigger and stronger than you that blocking his huge powerful arm with a perfect bong sau still hurts. There are an infinite number of other possibilities.

Consider this too: Controlling the center is important, but multiple opponent reality combat scenarios pose an different kind of problem.

I'm not saying that bong sau is ineffective or that wing chun will fail every time. On the contrary, I have great respect for wing chun and its techniques/practitioners.

I'm merely pointing out that there's no such thing as an unbeatable technique. If there was, there wouldn't be all these martial arts styles out there for people to choose from. There are no absolutes in martial arts, other than that there are no absolutes!

"Sitting on the couch" is one of the best self defense tactics there is. I'm not kidding, either.

[couch]

Consider this too: Controlling the center is important, but multiple opponent reality combat scenarios pose an different kind of problem.

No they don't. Only one person can reach you at any given time and two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time.

You are insinuating that because of centreline theory, stuff breaks down when there's more than one person involved. That's BS. I bridge to the next opponent and face, then bridge to the next opponent and face. If you spent enough time in the system, you'd learn that there are many ways to bridge "off-centre" and then you can regain your facing.

And while things do break down in a streetfight, that wasn't the original topic at hand that you brought up. You gave a bunch of silly reasons that Bong Sau isn't the greatest to use. (Let alone that you brought it up in a drill scenario and not 'live.')

[Kevin Huang]

For the most part couch, I'm not in disagreement with you.

The one thing I DO disagree with you is that you can bridge 100% of the time from opponent to opponent in a reality combat scenario. It is NOT true at all that only one opponent can reach you at a time.

When attacked by multiple opponents, you often have to deal with two guys attacking you from two different angles simultaneously. Simply shifting your bridge from one to the other is ideal in theory, but it sometimes doesn't work especially if your two attackers are clinging to you and are strong or numerous enough to impede your motion.

Theory and reality are often not the same.

[punchdrunk]

honestly i have never heard the bong sau is never first. I have heard bong never stays or bong must change. thats what bong sau lap da drills are for ( or bong-tan, bong pak etc.) I have personally had to use bong first on an occasion and thank god it worked so i used it to press forward and followed up with strikes. i believe bong should only happen when needed and then change. But maybe the phrase is just meant to keep us more aggressive, it definately would be better to strike instead of bong.
as for the weaknesses of bong sau, yes there are lots of flaws in any position and i take no offense in the critique. Just don't hold the position in the wrong place right?

[k gledhill]

you can use bong anytime , 1st, last , whatever. Its a tool , not a rule. Get the job done, the best mechanics create tools for specific requirements and experience. Dont be bound by the systems guidelines.
In theory the idea is we strike 1st, so bong is seen as a means to recover a line theat stopped your strike from landing, it is in the latter sections of SLT along with other ,line recovery methods.
If my hands are down and you start by delivering a line of force above my arms strike path, I can use bong 1st .
Bong is a fast ballistic action primarily. But can be a bridge to turning juts low gaun sao's, whatever...
People label bong , high ,,low,, mid, etc...turning, facing, whatever. If you know the purpose of it and the relationship it serves to another arm , then thats all you need to work the tool for the specific job at hand FOR YOU.