More Tanglang Chuji Sanda (free-fighting) clips

[B.Tunks]

Link to part 2 of our chuji sanda clips. There is also a part 3 that was uploaded today (don't have the link on me). You should be able to search it if interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ2z_QUvjN8

BT

[B.Tunks]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BHT6OxwBSCI

[yu shan]

Mr. Tunks

As usual good stuff. Your boys are definitely "likes to fight guys"! A couple of them do something I liked. In a sort of hopping retreat they lash out with a short hook upstairs, sweet. I like your guys aggressiveness.

[mantis108]

Hi Brendan,

Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it's good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It's a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own "style" of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he's pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he's taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it's okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent's free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it's easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it's my take on that. Hope you don't mind my saying so. Great job by all that's for sure.

Warmest regards

Robert

[mantis108]

Hi Brendan,

Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it's good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It's a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own "style" of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he's pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he's taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it's okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent's free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it's easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it's my take on that. Hope you don't mind my saying so. Great job by all that's for sure.

Warmest regards

Robert

[B.Tunks]

Hi Brendan,

Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it's good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It's a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own "style" of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he's pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he's taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it's okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent's free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it's easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it's my take on that. Hope you don't mind my saying so. Great job by all that's for sure.

Warmest regards

Robert

Thanks Robert!

No, you are completely right. The headgear makes them ignore their defences badly (which is why we alternate between gear and no gear). There are a lot of big errors throughout, such as continually going for double leg takedowns with bad timing and leaving the head and neck vulnerable. Hopefully I can work them through this. Good thing about those masks though, they still get k.o'd and concussed from time to time so at least they feel some consequences.

Cheers.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Mr. Tunks

As usual good stuff. Your boys are definitely "likes to fight guys"! A couple of them do something I liked. In a sort of hopping retreat they lash out with a short hook upstairs, sweet. I like your guys aggressiveness.

Thanks Jim.

Yep, at least they like to get in there and don't mind getting smashed. J, has a very sharp hook. Working on his straight striking now.

BT

[Oso]

ya, nice stuff. left a comment earlier on youtube.

[Oso]

Question: where, in traditional mantis, are you finding the double leg?

[B.Tunks]

Question: where, in traditional mantis, are you finding the double leg?

O,

Off the top of the head, as there is more than one- one of the applications of mopan with double or linked piercing is double leg (at the lower frame).

Any evidence of it in your material? Maybe Kevin has a take on it, if he's reading.

BT

[Oso]

well, so far, my mantis sets are just: xiao fanche, bengbu, xiao si shou, tanglang chuei (sp?) and the first road of Ba Kui (sp?) or '8 Fast'

our preliminary sets are: babu lian hua, shaolin shi ba shou and 'Iron Fist' as I have learned them

xiao fanche and xiao si shou share a move that is a great set up for shooting the double leg (or single leg): a big hook to the head that changes direction and cuts down to the mid or lower gates as you drop levels with the body.

shi ba shou's 'carry the basket maneuver' can be modified to take the legs, imo but is originally an arm breaking throwing back over your uprooting leg...I train my folks to switch to the double/single if the original technique fails.

i'd have to think about the rest but those are places i have my folks train to look for the double as an option.

[Three Harmonies]

BT-
You wouldn't have an example would you? I too am interested, but I do not see it in anything I know.
Thanks
Jake

[B.Tunks]

BT-
You wouldn't have an example would you? I too am interested, but I do not see it in anything I know.
Thanks
Jake

Jake- I'll show you when i meet you.

BT

[Oso]

BT, you have anything on the form you are referring too? **video, that is**

Jim, what was that drill you showed me once? wasn't is 'mo pan shou' or something? the first move could be an entry to a single/double


and, there is an application Jim showed me that he got from Shifu for the 5th mantis road that is a deng pu w/ an underhook on the near side arm that could be changed to a single/double.

i guess I feel like I don't see any actual S/D takedowns but many entering movements that set you up for that option.

so, i'm eager to see some :)

[B.Tunks]

Matt,

No I don't, sorry. It was a big enough stretch and shift in attitude to get me to post what I have so far (and mainly so I could avoid having to type about fighting). On a technical front, my student who did the clip is off to England this week for 3 years so I will have do any future stuff myself and i'm not particularly keen on posting clips of taolu or applications anyway.

As far as single leg takedowns there are many (though many are from inside to outside gate), majority beginning from knee smashes (in our versions of lanjie, zhaiyao yilu for example). To be fair though, I will expand on the first example I gave. Mo pan is to break or neutralise the guard, double piercing is consecutive (when seen in taolu or drills) but can be simultaneous in application, depending on the target. At the higher frame, double quan chui to the back of neck/base of skull (or jaw followed by back of neck), which can be brought forward/pulled in to knee in the face. At the middle frame the arms come to the small of back (either outside or inside on or both of the opponents arms) and the upper body lead by the head forces the opponent up and back, inner or outer leg hooking makes the throw worse, to land head and back first on the ground. At the lower frame, hooks come to the back of the knees, in and up. the shoulder and head ram forward, upward and outward. You can see this in the first fenduan of our duo gang (aka cuo/zuo gang), for example.

We have a minimum of 4 versions of almost every application and for many techniques, even more. The example I gave of variance at each frame (high, middle and low) is only one factor, left and right side is the other obvious consideration. Beyond taolu we also independantly drill many striking, kicking, na and throwing techniques (as does Robert's school of Taichi/Taiji TLQ). Some of these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. However, both kinds of takedown are also present in the forms.

What you are referring to earlier in your fanche could be lan ma, also from your (and other) version of lanjie. It is not in our versions of either taolu but we have the same technique elsewhere and it certainly can be used for takedown.

No worries, if you guys don't see this in your Tanglang. It may not be there. Afterall, we all learnt from different teachers. Eg. I doubt whether a cross shoulder ('firemans lift') throw ending in an arm bar over the lead knee is your application for the mi zhou attack at the start of Bai Yuan Chu Dong. Some schools are more wrestling oriented, just as others are more qinna or strike oriented. Eg. I have seen some schools of Tanglang that have no throwing whatsoever (apart from knock down or trips, and only two of them at that).

T

[Oso]

Matt,

No I don't, sorry. It was a big enough stretch and shift in attitude to get me to post what I have so far (and mainly so I could avoid having to type about fighting).

yea, it's a biotch to try to type it all out...too many variables to ever have to great a convo via this medium

On a technical front, my student who did the clip is off to England this week for 3 years so I will have do any future stuff myself and i'm not particularly keen on posting clips of taolu or applications anyway.

gotcha

As far as single leg takedowns there are many (though many are from inside to outside gate), majority beginning from knee smashes (in our versions of lanjie, zhaiyao yilu for example). To be fair though, I will expand on the first example I gave. Mo pan is to break or neutralise the guard, double piercing is consecutive (when seen in taolu or drills) but can be simultaneous in application, depending on the target. At the higher frame, double quan chui to the back of neck/base of skull (or jaw followed by back of neck), which can be brought forward/pulled in to knee in the face. At the middle frame the arms come to the small of back (either outside or inside on or both of the opponents arms) and the upper body lead by the head forces the opponent up and back, inner or outer leg hooking makes the throw worse, to land head and back first on the ground. At the lower frame, hooks come to the back of the knees, in and up. the shoulder and head ram forward, upward and outward. You can see this in the first fenduan of our duo gang (aka cuo/zuo gang), for example.

ok, I see what you're doing I think. i'd say it's at least similar to the way I look at movement: how can such and such movement be applied to different parts of the body.

We have a minimum of 4 versions of almost every application and for many techniques, even more. The example I gave of variance at each frame (high, middle and low) is only one factor, left and right side is the other obvious consideration.

exaclty

Beyond taolu we also independantly drill many striking, kicking, na and throwing techniques (as does Robert's school of Taichi/Taiji TLQ). Some of these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. However, both kinds of takedown are also present in the forms.

What you are referring to earlier in your fanche could be lan ma, also from your (and other) version of lanjie. It is not in our versions of either taolu but we have the same technique elsewhere and it certainly can be used for takedown.

and it may not really be in our version either...just my take on it.

No worries, if you guys don't see this in your Tanglang. It may not be there. Afterall, we all learnt from different teachers. Eg. I doubt whether a cross shoulder ('firemans lift') throw ending in an arm bar over the lead knee is your application for the mi zhou attack at the start of Bai Yuan Chu Dong. Some schools are more wrestling oriented, just as others are more qinna or strike oriented. Eg. I have seen some schools of Tanglang that have no throwing whatsoever (apart from knock down or trips, and only two of them at that).

T

thanks, i appreciate it.

[Three Harmonies]

BT
You coming stateside anytime soon? I would love to visit Oz, but man it is expensive to get to your little island!
Thanks for the explanation. Not sure I see it. Hu laoshi certainly does variations of these throws, but he has a heavy Shuai Chiao background so....
I have never been taught it as a direct app from the Taolu I know, but then again I know very little.
Gives me something to work on, and analyze while practicing.
Thanks,
Jake

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Folks:
Like Axel from Guns ´n´Roses said: use your illusion! ;)
There is a double Leg takedown to find in a partnerset called Tou Hua san Dui Da and for sure some in Handsets also. Single leg throws/attacks are plenty to find.
Mike Sifu used to say once, that a lot of Tang Lang techniques are easy to perform as strong Shuai Jiao moves. Jake: just ask him in september, he surely can show some!

[Three Harmonies]

I know plenty, just do not see the single / double leg in the Mantis sets. Not saying they are not there, just that I am blind!
Jake :)

[Oso]

i think this gets into deciding what really is 'application' of a form movement.

my JJ teacher explained that they have 'bunkai' and 'oyo'

one being the intended application of the form builder and the other being personal interpretation...i can't remember which is which now though

[B.Tunks]

i think this gets into deciding what really is 'application' of a form movement.

my JJ teacher explained that they have 'bunkai' and 'oyo'

one being the intended application of the form builder and the other being personal interpretation...i can't remember which is which now though

M,

Of course the element of personal interpretation is valid, especially once a person is experienced enough. Unfortunately this strategy sometimes results in people who don't know, making up random stuff or importing to fill percieved gaps. However, in this case it's not a personal interpretation. It's a case of applying a designated, and drilled technique from within the arsenal of the style (even if that is only from one man's perspective/interpretation of that style. Eg. my teacher). Having said that, in real fighting (not sparring, self defence/combat) people should use absolutely anything that works and fits the circumstances. That's common sense. Learning to fight using Tanglang, it makes sense to try and restrict the parameters to encourage development of the skills of mantis boxing (at the higher level the restriction is less necessary). However, if someone goes outside those parameters and pulls off something outside what we might know of as TLQ, it can be a good thing for both fighters. This is the case with the suplex type throw you see in the clip. I would have picked that one out as something more obviously alien ahead of double legs.

Cheers all.

T

[Oso]

M,

Of course the element of personal interpretation is valid, especially once a person is experienced enough. Unfortunately this strategy sometimes results in people who don't know, making up random stuff or importing to fill percieved gaps. However, in this case it's not a personal interpretation.

didn't think it was :)

It's a case of applying a designated, and drilled technique from within the arsenal of the style (even if that is only from one man's perspective/interpretation of that style. Eg. my teacher).

and that begs the question: when is a recognized teacher/lineage holder such as yourself or our Shifu Kevin, considered capable of interpretation that can be added to the corpus and still considered 'mantis'?

my history knowledge is not great enough to cite example, but I think there are plenty of cases where teachers of mantis have integrated and interpreted and yet it's still mantis to us down the line but maybe wasn't still mantis to those back up the line ???

Having said that, in real fighting (not sparring, self defence/combat) people should use absolutely anything that works and fits the circumstances. That's common sense. Learning to fight using Tanglang, it makes sense to try and restrict the parameters to encourage development of the skills of mantis boxing (at the higher level the restriction is less necessary).

agreed

However, if someone goes outside those parameters and pulls off something outside what we might know of as TLQ, it can be a good thing for both fighters. This is the case with the suplex type throw you see in the clip. I would have picked that one out as something more obviously alien ahead of double legs.

actually, yea, i did but i don't use supplexes...i have a patented bear hug type throw with it's own little twist: i do a headstand on their face! ha! ;)



Cheers all.

T

but seriously, i picked the double leg as my question because of my own incorporation of it in our san shou practice

[Tainan Mantis]

Talking about takedowns such as double leg.



...these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. T


As it is for us in Taiwan. Shifu taught us different double and single leg that don't seem apparent in forms.

Some examples that are in a form.
BENG BU
first folding elbow at end of form 1st road,
look at the monk half way down the article doing this elbow move.

http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/fan%20tian%20fu%20di.htm

usually this is a strike to opponent's elbow or head, but the day I learned this form Shifu should me how to do it to the knee.

Later, we practiced this as part of our leg grab curriculum.

Within an old manuscript of 8 Elbows there is a section describing the defense of the double leg, which is sprawl and hit back of neck.

So the defense of the move is there, which is easy to show in a solo form.

But the motions of a double leg don't lend themselves to a solo performance in a form and I think it fits with that body of material that is passed on without forms.


That being said, there are a lot of leg grab moves in long fist which have some overlap in Mantis.

Kevin

[Oso]

cool!!!!!!

to elaborate:


usually this is a strike to opponent's elbow or head, but the day I learned this form Shifu should me how to do it to the knee.

so, again, changing the application to fit level (hi, mid or low)



But the motions of a double leg don't lend themselves to a solo performance in a form and I think it fits with that body of material that is passed on without forms.

in the gung li(k) that I learned there was a motion in the first or second move that I always thought matched the energy of the double leg as far as the arms went but the legs were not the same....

xiao deng pu = wrestlers 'drop step' which is used to penetrate the lower gate

'continuous palm' drill from babu lian hua is identical to handwork needed to get wrist control as wrestlers

'strike high to attack low' = wrestlers often attack for clinch or push on the head as a fake before dropping levels to attack the legs

shoot, if wrestling hadn't been around since 800 BCE or more i'd say mantis stole everything from western wrestling ;) :D

[Three Harmonies]

In most all cultures across the globe their was some form of grappling, that most likely preceded the arts we see today! Funny how some things change, and some don't! BJJ and submission wrestling is gaining in popularity all over again.
Jake

[B.Tunks]

Jake- I don't know but I am definitely coming. I have family there again soon.

KB- Interesting and good to hear. We also have an unexpected/non conventional throw in our Beng Bu just after 'Obtaining Treasure Behind the Back': Carpenter Hangs a Thread. This is basically equivalent to the 'neck rubbing' throw found in most schools of shuaijiao, which is also a defence against the double leg or basic 'crash tackle'.

In my opinion, many of the schools in Shandong today you can find a heavy shuaijiao influence. Tanglang has certainly borrowed/stolen heavily from it throughout the years.

BT

[Oso]

In most all cultures across the globe their was some form of grappling, that most likely preceded the arts we see today! Funny how some things change, and some don't! BJJ and submission wrestling is gaining in popularity all over again.
Jake

you realize I was joking, right?

[Oso]

single leg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlHPrQ0Q5wY)

double leg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFeJ3tO2ZJQ)

[Three Harmonies]

Matt-
I know broski, just trying to edumacate the young pups out there! You look like you have lost weight!?

BT -
Keep us all posted as to your visit. If you teach and Mantis I am sure there would be one or two people interested;)
Where in the US do you have peeps? Not Seattle by chance is it?


As I continue to develop in the CMA it seems to me that most, if not all, teachers who were adept at fighting had some level of exposure to Shuai Chiao in their lives. Though my teacher Tim would be an exception. Never took any shuai chiao formally, and has some of the best throws I have ever come across. But then again many of his teachers had SC experience to some degree.

Interesting.
Cheers

Jake

[Oso]

a little...maybe 8-10 total, working on it. thanks :)

[trippinontre]

Man that's some good stuff!!! Tunks, I like how all your students are getting in there and mixing it up... I wish we had school like this in San Diego Cali.. take care.

[Three Harmonies]

You do. Look up Tony Puyot and / or Mike Desargo.
Cheers
Jake

[trippinontre]

I trained with mike for about three years.. We never did this kinda of training at his school.. I liked the training, I just needed more realistic training..

[Three Harmonies]

Really? Hmmm. Both Mike and Tony claim they spar consistently, and do various sparring drills!? At the MQ conference in 05 Tony Puyot shared several sparring based drills as well. I admit I have not trained with them at their schools, so I really have no clue, but you say something quite contrary to my understanding of their training methodology and practice.
Both post here so I am sure one or the other will chime in.
Cheers
Jake

[Tony Puyot]

Trippinontre

I cannot speak for Mr. Dasargo and how he runs his classes. I do know that to introduce students to that level of sparring before they have technique would be a waist of time for everyone.
Also, most students do not want that level of contact and when you teach for a living you have to go with what most students want or can handle or as a teacher you can be broke.
Lastly, we live in southern California, the most litigious place on earth with some of the most fragile sensitive people you will encounter.

On the other hand, I do not teach for a living and do not care about most of these problems. My class consists of 90 % sparring, 10% two-person drill. Once or twice a year we might work on a form. We are always open to have people drop in and throw down.
Tony Puyot
What is your Name?

[trippinontre]

Well when I was there we never did any kind of training, like Tunks has his students doing.. Tony only taught one class when I was there.. Also we did do drills but, that doesn't come close to what Tunks students are doing.. But I haven't been to Mike in about 3 years.. I like praying mantis alot and I would like to pick up my training where I left off.. Like I said when I was there before it wasn't realistic enough for me.. Take care..

[trippinontre]

Hi Tony, This is Nate Steele. I meet you a few times at Mike's old school on Park Boulevard.. I always wanted to learn from you but, I think at that time you where not teaching.. Are you teaching now?. Take care..

[Michael Dasargo]

Hello Nate,

I hope all is well with you and your family.

I am unsure as to what you consider "realistic".

I may be wrong, but I am assuming you are referring to high speed and heavy contact sparring.

High intensity/heavy contact sparring was not conducive towards helping you control your anger; which was the main focus of your development.

When we finally did go high intensity, your jaw injury put you out of training, and your brother quit out of disapproval.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Our primary focus is to develop skill that can be maintained under stress.

Intensity levels are governed by the students competence.

If the integrity of the students skill and/or composure buckles under stress, then the intensity level is no longer conducive to that students development.

__________________________________________________ ______________


Skill sets are isolated by establishing parameters. This allows our students to examine their competence within specific areas of combat.

Phase 1: Basic Striking. No kicks or grappling.
Phase 2: Basic Hands and Feet: No grappling.
phase 3: Basic Free Fighting.

...and so on.

__________________________________________________ _______________

There are always 3 sides to the story; 2 perspectives + 1 truth.

I know I may be misudnerstanding your perspective. I hold myself accountable for any miscommuncation on my part.

I hope to understand your perspective better so that we may improve areas where we have flaws.

Sincerely,
M.Dasargo

[trippinontre]

Hi mike hows it goin? I did have some angry issues when I first strated training with you. Also I do appreciate everything you help me with but, as far as my brother quiting cause of my jaw injury I never heard that from him. I have actually had 2 mma fights and have done some muay thai smokers my jaw never brothered me then. Mike I did not come on this board to start pointing the finger are say you are a bad teacher. If you are taking it that way I'm sorry.. That was my perspective of how the school was when I was training there. Like I said I'm I would like to pick my training up where I left off. What Tunks does with his students I think school should do almost weekly.. But I'm no "sifu" so, what do I know.. Take care Mike.. Also saw that you have your own school now, congratulations!

[Three Harmonies]

Missing you this weekend Mike!
Jake :D