Gate Theory What is it and how is it applied

[canglong]

I find our training 6 and 4 gate postures can impact a persons wing chun learning curve immensely and help teach structure and lines of offense and defense. Does this and possibly more apply to your training?

[couch]

I find our training 6 and 4 gate postures can impact a persons wing chun learning curve immensely and help teach structure and lines of offense and defense. Does this and possibly more apply to your training?

I'm going to be honest with you...I struggle a lot with gate theory and whether I should mention it at all.

The reason is because I am supposed to chase the centre...attack the attack, etc. So by mentioning these different gates, I have the fear of chasing hands.

Example: When introducing the two lower gates, I could show how a Gan Sau or perhaps a Dai Bong (Low-action Bong) could be used in either two lower gates/to protect the flank. But I think that some people might be inclined to then chase the hand down there.

If I want to protect a low flank attack, I personally just choose (let's say) a Gan Sau and I drive it forward and along the centre like in SNT. Then, with a shift, the Gan Sau is perfectly placed just at the width of my body. Never going passed the width of my body as well as driving forward to put some pressure on the COM (centre of mass). IMO, techniques either go up, down, forwards or backwards. Never side-to-side.

Edit: Not saying this is what you were implying, but the reason I don't really like gate theory is because someone might want to chase hands and put 'side pressure' on something.

Best,
K

[CFT]

If we only focus on the centre: defending and attacking then we'd get clobbered from the side, assuming that our offence is not 100% effective.

[canglong]

Hello Couch,
Thanks for the honest reply.
First if the force/flow of the attack is up or down North/South then the one way to difuse it is to direct the force to the side or East/West. The gate theory just narrows the proper use of this idea into small zones of attack and defense. Which is what seems to advance a persons learning curve from what I have witnessed.
People at least I think most people in the beginning have a tendency to chase hands and actually gate theory can help eliminate that by narrowing the focus to the lines to attack and be defended.

[canglong]

Good point CFT
It (CL) is a main point of focus but not the only point of focus. Gate theory can be used to teach us we want to use facing to put our complete compliment of gates against an opponents half whenever possible.

[CFT]

Defend the space rather than chase the hands?

I've been in stupid chi sau situations where my hands have gone outside of the shoulders ... you stop and think 'WTF'?

[couch]

Defend the space rather than chase the hands?

I've been in stupid chi sau situations where my hands have gone outside of the shoulders ... you stop and think 'WTF'?

Yes, this happens from time to time, but constant practice of SNT and tight drills and changes usually cleans this up.

But what if there was only ONE place to be instead of four or six? What if the small tube that I'm fighting down the centre is the only place to be? I know what you're saying about side to side, but that's just a small extension of the tube or what some people call "filling the space."

Just some of my ideas that I use...

[canglong]

but that's just a small extension of the tube or what some people call "filling the space."Well I follow you there we use the term occupy space. But at the same time the attack can come from off center that is why we narrow the focus in our particular case to 6 gates which accounts for every line of attack and defense. Facing with structure and yes occupy space.

[LoneTiger108]

I've rarely heard a decent explanation of this 'Gate Theory' mentioned, which obviously means that I don't see it utilized efficiently at all (or at least not the way I know it!)

How many gates are we talking of here? How do you explain this theory in HFY?

[couch]

Well I follow you there we use the term occupy space. But at the same time the attack can come from off center that is why we narrow the focus in our particular case to 6 gates which accounts for every line of attack and defense. Facing with structure and yes occupy space.

I think I might be picking up what you're laying down!

Instead of thinking in terms of 'flat' 6 gates...the way it would look on paper...you could have the gates as actual 'space' or an area 'floating in air' that you can face and occupy. Is this stretching it too much? (Yikes...makes sense to me! LOL)

[canglong]

yes exactly your "personal space"! lol and the goal of wing chun is to teach you how to master the art of occupying your "personal space" everything in those six gates is controled by you. A buddhist connection references the six gates as being equal to the six senses.

[canglong]

How many gates are we talking of here? How do you explain this theory in HFY?LoneTiger108,
We'll get there I just wanted to get a little feeback from others first.

[LoneTiger108]

yes exactly your "personal space"! lol and the goal of wing chun is to teach you how to master the art of occupying your "personal space" everything in those six gates is controled by you. A buddhist connection references the six gates as being equal to the six senses.

I find it interesting that you refer to six gates, as I've seen other interpretations that refer to nine. Six harmonies, yes, six senses? A new one for me to research!

I agree with the concepts of these 'spaces' being the make up of your personal space, but I also prefer to use the word 'path' to reflect the three-dimensional meaning. I also agree that coverage of this entire space is a speciality of Wing Chun, regardless of family we surely have to agree?!

FWIW nine paths are the dissection of the space directly in front of the upper body:

top left; top; top right
mid left; mid; mid right
low left; low; low right

I've heard some talk of this space and it always reminds me of an old RubiksCube. Remember them? Many twists, turns and rotations with six colours for each face. Maybe this links well into your six gate concept, the six sides of a cube? Now just imagine stepping inside the cube and hey! We're in HFY domain!

Six gates for heaven, hell, north, south, east & west? Six gates divided into nine paths? Very interesting ;)

Now I'm rambling... :o

[canglong]

LoneTiger108,
Research it hahaha good to hear 'cause that sounds eerily familiar, Six Sense, why, because as humans we expereince reality/communicate through the use of our six senses. In Shaolin/Buddhism/Wing Chun the Six Gates are the pathway to each of the Six Senses/communication hence the expression talking hands asking hand(s) and so on. The path of the mind does not progress on meditation alone but in the union of the mind along with the physical movements of the body to then produce a harmony of mind body and spirit.

The six and the nine you describe sound similar looking at it, it would seem the six are in the nine just not divided any further. We use reference points as boundries to define space and then we would also add the element of time by adding depth.
FWIW nine paths are the dissection of the space directly in front of the upper body:
Yes agreed,
See using the center line we eliminate the need to say top mid and low as you used in your example let me explain why. From SNT we define a strike to the head as High (Heaven) and strike to the torso as Middle (Human) and below the waist as Low (Earth). Then you would add center line and 2 side boundaries (the shoulder lines). To add depth you use your reaching point of simultaneous offense and defense also as defined in SNT. So we have taken the reference points of striking the high the middle and the low and split them in half given them boundaries and added the dimension of depth to establish six gates.
I've heard some talk of this space and it always reminds me of an old RubiksCube. Remember them? Many twists, turns and rotations with six colours for each face. Maybe this links well into your six gate concept, the six sides of a cube? Now just imagine stepping inside the cube and hey! We're in HFY domain!
Actually not a bad analogy.
Why because after giving life to our six gates we must then understand the dynamics of the gate and the 5 strkining points or 5 methods of existence of loi lau (the path or flow of energy).

[osprey3883]

Hello,
Tony did a good job of laying out the 6 gates, and of course intrinsic to the gate theory is proper facing. Regarding chasing hands and occupation of space questions brought up earlier; in the HFY training I have experienced the focus is on building a reaction in the practitioner to first occupy space on center at the appropriate height. If the centerline occupation doesn't handle the situation then flow to the appropriate occupation of space within the gate, with a focus on strong structure.
:D
Matt

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am going to try to explain how it was taught to me. First off, the gates are numbered 12. There are six front and six rear. Outer gate is the lead side. Inner is the opposite of the lead. Switch sides and the inner and outer gates are also switched. The front gates are the space from the lead elbow to the extended arm. The back gate is from the lead elbow to your body.
Each gate determines what defense or attack you will use. Your attack should be determined by the defense you use. From eyebrow to heart determines upper gate, heart to crotch is middle gate, and from crotch to ground is lower gate.
Your center line is yours. You focus your defense on your own center line. If can violate your opponents center line you do so. You occupy your own center line which then blocks your opponents attack from that direction. You shift to focus that center line when you defend or attack.
I am not sure what chasing hands is all about, but I think it is a product of way too much chi sao.
Upper gate defense is done with a completely different set of techniques than calls for middle gate. Bong is an upper gate defense for me, but the ugly twin is used for the middle gate. That would be the dropping elbow or forearm. To bong low like that would put your face in extreme danger. In SLT you can see the bong followed by the dropping elbow or forearm.
The way to train these gates would be to have a training partner to attack you through your different gates exclusively until you can determine the easiest to use defense techniques. Like he attacks you through your upper outside gate. You use every technique that you feel could apply to that defense and work it until you have a good feeling for it. Then he would begin attacking you through the upper inner gate. Then middle outer, middle inner, and so on. This will make it far easier to understand and to learn.
This is Hung Fa as I have learned it. It can be as easy or as complicated as one chooses to make it. I love simplicity, so if I were to teach I would teach a piece at a time until all the pieces fit tightly together.
It is just my opinion, but I feel that every aspect, every concept, must be completely understood and practiced if you intend develop strong WC.

[canglong]

I am going to try to explain how it was taught to me.Good place to start thanks LCP we appreciate that thanks for sharing.
Outer gate is the lead side. Inner is the opposite of the lead.Why is there a need for the concept of outer and inner gates here?
The front gates are the space from the lead elbow to the extended arm.Doesn't this violate the wing chun concept of silmultaneous offense and defense? What are the side boundaries or width of the gates?
The way to train these gates would be to have a training partner to attack you through your different gates exclusively until you can determine the easiest to use defense techniques. Like he attacks you through your upper outside gate. You use every technique that you feel could apply to that defense and work it until you have a good feeling for it. Then he would begin attacking you through the upper inner gate. Then middle outer, middle inner, and so on. This will make it far easier to understand and to learn.
This is Hung Fa as I have learned it. It can be as easy or as complicated as one chooses to make it. I love simplicity, so if I were to teach I would teach a piece at a time until all the pieces fit tightly together.
Sounds good I have to agree.

[Phil Redmond]

We do 6 "basic" gates. Head to Solar Plexus is upper gate. Solar plexus to pelvic area is middle gate. Below the pelvis is lower gate. Divided down the middle you have upper left, upper right, and so on. Six gates in total. The lower gate is "generally" blocked with the legs.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/theory.asp

[CFT]

Nice sharing from everyone, especially Tony for making it so clear and explicit.

But I think only HF/HFY have addressed the issue of depth, or is it just too bleedin' obvious?

[canglong]

Morning CFT,
Is this discussion similar to what you train.
Yes as you state depth is a key element that can be overlooked if not properly taught because it could be very easy to come away with the impression as mentioned earlier that the gates are flat when in fact they are not. This fact is then key to understanding the degree to which wing chun is considered an inside art or close quarter combat.

[CFT]

Hi Tony,

My training is rudimentary to say the least, so I would say I am still at that 'flat gate' stage.

Here is another, perhaps obvious, observation ... if there is a size difference between opponents then the smaller guy is going to have to work *very* hard to bridge the gap to attack the centre if they don't defend their gates.

I don't buy the dogma that a straight line always beats a circular attack - it's far to general an assertion.

______________

Best wishes,
Chee.

[canglong]

Chee,

Here is another, perhaps obvious, observation ... if there is a size difference between opponents then the smaller guy is going to have to work *very* hard to bridge the gap to attack the centre if they don't defend their gates.
True enough, let me ask you this. If I ask you to describe the bounds and path of huen sau using the description of the gates provided earlier think you could do it now?

[CFT]

Chee,
True enough, let me ask you this. If I ask you to describe the bounds and path of huen sau using the description of the gates provided earlier think you could do it now?Haha! Probably not but I'll give it a go.

I can't see how huen could apply at heaven and earth gates primarily because I see huen as an outside-to-inside technique to remove the arm, with your own hand in an upright-ish posture in order to huen downwards and outwards. Saying that, you could be in the middle, cross-armed with the other guy and want to get to the flank.

Anyway, due to the starting hand position I can't see it working other than at Man level because at Earth level the hand position would seem to be most unnatural and at Heaven level I wonder if you can get the leverage.

In terms of lateral dimensions there is obviously no need to go beyond the shoulder width, but in terms of range (depth) of applicability I'm not sure.

I have a feeling you have different answers in mind. I'm happy to receive the lesson!
__________

Best wishes,
Chee.

[canglong]

Anyway, due to the starting hand position I can't see it working other than at Man level because at Earth level the hand position would seem to be most unnatural and at Heaven level I wonder if you can get the leverage.

In terms of lateral dimensions there is obviously no need to go beyond the shoulder width, but in terms of range (depth) of applicability I'm not sure.
The exact precision of the answer was not what was in question here so Excellent answer. You made the point techniques are provided a boundary within which they exist. As I said earlier this technology is what makes me believe a persons learning curve can be increased because of substantive logic flow just as you described.

[osprey3883]

I am going to try to explain how it was taught to me. First off, the gates are numbered 12. There are six front and six rear. Outer gate is the lead side. Inner is the opposite of the lead. Switch sides and the inner and outer gates are also switched. The front gates are the space from the lead elbow to the extended arm. The back gate is from the lead elbow to your body.


Hello,
Thanks for the breakout, is there a technical, conceptual or tactical reason for the inside vs outside gate in the way you were taught?

re-


I am not sure what chasing hands is all about, but I think it is a product of way too much chi sao.


IMO at this point in my training much of chasing hands has to do with how you express your structures. If your occupation of space is expressed in a non neutral way, with your structures expressed with any sort of leaning you will have to chase hands. IMO once you commit with a lean and the shape of space changes you are always playing catch up where your center of gravity is concerned. Dont get me wrong, many people are very good at this type of exchange, but IMO this is putting the cart before the horse.

Matt

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are only 2 things of any real importance about gate theory, imo...especially if you've spent any real "quality time" sparring with people skilled in arts like boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, sambo, wrestling, judo, or jiu jitsu.

1) Knowing how far to extend the gates you're trying to protecting width-wise (laterally), so that you're not reaching for or reacting to moves that are outside the widths that need to be defended, (ie.- slightly more than shoulder width on each side)...and...

2) Knowing in advance which wing chun hands you will probably be using when defending or covering a given attack within any of the gates, (ie.- don't be attempting to use a garn sau to block/deflect/intercept a high punch to your head, for example). LOL :p :rolleyes:

Other than those two things, "gate theory" is much ado about nothing.

[sobela]

Just my thoughts.
The Wing Chun I am learning is from the Ip Ching lineage.
I saw some of the post about being attacked off the center line. If you have learned Biu Gee it doesn't matter where the attack comes from. Biu Gee teaches the student how to attack from any direction and to be comfortable with all directions. Learning the rules, breaking the rules, and then reapplying new rules. Wing Chun is so much fun.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Tony,

My training is rudimentary to say the least, so I would say I am still at that 'flat gate' stage.

Here is another, perhaps obvious, observation ... if there is a size difference between opponents then the smaller guy is going to have to work *very* hard to bridge the gap to attack the centre if they don't defend their gates.

I don't buy the dogma that a straight line always beats a circular attack - it's far to general an assertion.

______________

Best wishes,
Chee.

Hi Chee, I didn't mention the forward and rear gates in TWC. I just used the "flat" gates in that photo.

[canglong]

There are only 2 things of any real importance about gate theory, imo...especially if you've spent any real "quality time" sparring with people skilled in arts like boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, sambo, wrestling, judo, or jiu jitsu.Just 2 Vic interesting. So why are these the golden arts in your opinion and will these artist be arriving with more than 2 arms 2 legs a head and torso?
1) Knowing how far to extend the gates you're trying to protecting width-wise (laterally), so that you're not reaching for or reacting to moves that are outside the widths that need to be defended, (ie.- slightly more than shoulder width on each side)...You would consider that more important than over extending in a forward manner past the limits of your gate?

2) Knowing in advance which wing chun hands you will probably be using when defending or covering a given attack within any of the gates,Why did you say "probably" and thought you agreed that responses should be both fluid and spontaneous, has that idea changed?
I saw some of the post about being attacked off the center line. If you have learned Biu Gee it doesn't matter where the attack comes from. Biu Gee teaches the student how to attack from any direction and to be comfortable with all directions.sobela,
Yes and we have other wing chun concepts to use as well such as baat bo ching but that does not discount the fact that our wing chun concepts and theories will be used in conjucntion with one another we try not to forsake one for the other.


Hi Phil,
Thanks for sharing the pics.
Does TWC define its gates in its SNT? Also
I am curious why in the pic the arms cross in a different location in the 3rd pic and what is the meaning and purpose of the 2 different locations?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . .Hi Phil,Thanks for sharing the pics.
Does TWC define its gates in its SNT? AlsoI am curious why in the pic the arms cross in a different location in the 3rd pic and what is the meaning and purpose of the 2 different locations?
In the first pic she's in a "flat" neutral stance (YJKYM). In the 3rd pic she's in a right side neutral stance. I should have also added a pic of the front stance. The purpose of my site was for TWC students to have a standardized reference for things they learn in class. So there may be things unfamiliar to some.

[sobela]

Hey CangLong,
Are you saying different lineages teach differently. If you are I agree.

[canglong]

sobela,
Actually what I was pointing out was although biu jee and gate theory are 2 different things it doesn't mean they can't work together. And yes I agree different lineages teach differently or they wouldn't be different.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just 2 Vic interesting.

So why are these the golden arts in your opinion and will these artist be arriving with more than 2 arms 2 legs a head and torso?

You would consider that more important than over extending in a forward manner past the limits of your gate?

Why did you say "probably" and thought you agreed that responses should be both fluid and spontaneous, has that idea changed?

...........................

"Probably" because some moves can work within all three gates, ie.- low bong sau, medium (regular) bong sau, high bong sau....pak will work almost everywhere, etc. - but tan won't. Garn won't. Bil sau won't. Lop won't, etc.

So one must be fluid but also understand that the probability of using a pak, a bong, or a bil (or bil/lop combo) against a high punch to the head is a much higher probability than using a garn, a tan, a gum, etc.

Btw, in my experience a tan can be used quite well against a high backfist or a high spinning backfist - and against a high rear cross (when in the parallel position - and if the tan is held at a 45 degree angle)....

hence the word "probably".

And yes, extending too far forward is a no-no...but I've never considered that as being part of "gate" theory - just good common sense. But I suppose you could say it's part of gate theory. No argument there.

As for the arts that were mentioned in my previous post, I think it's pretty self evident by now that those arts are head and shoulders beyond most other arts in actual fight effectiveness, ie.- they have more answers to fighting than arts like TKD, "pure" old school karate, (ie.- lunge punch, reverse punch, back fist, block and-then-about-a-second-later-the-other-arm-strikes)...Choi Li fut, bagua, tai chi, etc.

AND WHAT ABOUT WING CHUN ???

As I said countless times, great stuff in a certain geographical striking range...

[Vajramusti]

Details in concepts and lineage POV variations IMO account for different conclusions on gates.

FWIW, IMO, the six gates are related follow operationally from a clear center line principle.
Gates revolve with chum kiu turns. They are doors to the center line.

Contexts change- so to minimize dogmatism, I avoid saying never- but generally--many hand motions in top gate, leg motions in lower gates and hands or legs in middle gates. But due to the over- riding balance
and structure issues- not wise to use legs too often in actual application as opposed to development.
Things are best shown.

Apparently, in western sport fencing for some weapons there are 4 gates while those that allow slashes to the legs: 6 gates.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

I find our training 6 and 4 gate postures can impact a persons wing chun learning curve immensely and help teach structure and lines of offense and defense. Does this and possibly more apply to your training?

the gates serve to differentiate the spatial relations of our centerline to the area of an 'event' and the corresponding actions relative to it . we need to be able to move our line of fire while avoiding the incoming lines of force/fire back.

the tan never leaves the centerline, neither does jum , because they are strikes not blocks off the line. It can leave but its not what it does in the SLT. Nor does Jum.

Once the striking /flanking attacks are understood, the way we develop the ability to strike with arms along a line , both intersecting and deflecting each others actions into a positive partnership ...left jum attacks right arm, right tan attacks right arm...each striking as simple punches, BUT TRAINED in shapes , known as tan & jum. Each the 1st 1/2 of a strike in training only....tans strike starting point relative to our firing line...the fist goes on the line striking , while the elbow of the tan spreads off the line to deflect outwards off the centerline and back again to start the firing position again...this line /elbow is unnatural, so we do it a lot in SLT , we dont do elbows in unless trained to do so.

the jum is the 1st 1/2 of a strike that the elbow stays along the line ....until it strikes , then the elbow desnt need to hold the line any more as it goes off the line , fist still centered ...tan moving back to become vusao ...repeat ...both strikes after the initial deflecting actions inherent in each , the gates we attack change the sides of the tan jum we adopt , but they NEVER leave to chase offline , they just face the changing actions by angling....gates /lines are the guides

By adopting gates we can isolate a simple idea that flows seamlessly from one side of the gate to the other. As a fight proceeds we simply change the sides of the striking arms to do the same thing but keep attacking the turning action by facing squarely to 'aim' the line as a rifle from the side , as we adopt one gate or the other to place the opponent in ...ie his right arm /torso/head is attacked by being in our right gate adn v~versa....the training gives us the ability to work these angles and facing to strike using each other as mirrors of ourselves to develop the striking ability ....ie I use a jum punch you use a tan punch equal and opposites serve to develop us to attack outsiders.

To develop this gate ability we do chisao facing square on for a balanced ability to function either side striking with tan/jum and having good defenses to sudden contact, with no mind attacking reactions ....short sharp over.

Knowledge of gates allows us to take advantage of bad lines of attack to us , ie wild swings etc...when a person swings from one gate to the next we can allow this, as it offers more, than trying to chase the arm and stop it like a commonly seen arm in air while the other strikes , standing front and center to the attack ...gate chasing ...gate chasers can be easily feinted to chase gates as can arm chasers of other styles.....thow an arm out to simply get them to move ....
A person trained to adopt a centerline gate attack will strike along the lines and not react to feints or 'over move / react , because the line is not left in training by tan or jum as blocks... the tendency to seek arms before us is removed in training to strike with arms that will ALSO remove while attacking constantly , either alone , in rotation tan jum tan jum...or jum tan jum tan :D sounds odd huh ?

All the actions serve to feed a gate attack ie [ just an example ] right bong sao goes left across the line to open the strike line for the left tan , using the left side of the forearm to deflect what the previous bong opened ,,, the same idea is done with the now following right jum strike, it uses the left/inside of forearm to strike as the tan retracts from striking or [ whatever jut etc..] ....then vice versa...we fight with simple strikes either side seamlessly...the shaving hands in SLT teach this extension , retraction to strike etc.. perpetual free rear hand to strike and back up the lead hand man sao / vu sao.

left pak + right tan strike + left jum strike ....

jut sao from interruptions is on the line and back like a rubber band/ plyometric strike action on the attack line ...unlike lop sao, that is bil gee , a grab and change course of attack or to recover a badly applied bong sao or whatever..

once gates are known they are simply a place to have the opponent or a reference for training, chum kil facing gates as they change and shift while the fight is on..
....ie seung ma toi ma drills when a partner is adopting an attacking entry with tan /step the partner responds by angling and striking with jum , balance is tested and striking focus in stages becoming full attacking entry if mistakes come from either ....a good attack response is stalemate, repeat etc...cycle until you die seeking perfection.


WE use bil gee to chase across the line from gate to gate , gaun sao was originally in bil gee to chase lower gates ...slt is primarly centerline attacking actions, chumkil maneuvers the vt fighter to gates and shift to reface with the fight in real time from chi-sao....facing as training with 2 extended arms rolling is redundant to the actual fighting ...






If the centerline is your rifle, placing the opponent in a gate takes them off line to you...shoot the guy while moving out of his firing line ...he has 2 guns you have 2 guns. if he takes one offline you have the other to fire,.....he has 2 but you try to stay outside the 2 and attack one ...we face off to take advantage of the leading shot and prevent further attempts by attacking forwards with a self -clearing machine gun ...tactics


subtle shift in thinking .

If you stand and let them fire from either gate at you THEY are doing flanking shots ....your surrounded !!!:D this is why guys have trouble from fighters who face and throw shots while you stay centered....lead legs back and forth only keeps you centered to their attacks...shoots etc...low leg kicks from thai fighters...

if you adopt a free mind and use the opponent as the guide to your entry actions , you free yourself of move xto punch r , by simply being a freefighter using simple strikes with guiding concepts ....attack constantly one your in and have techniques that allow this attacking action in every action, either alone striking with a double action strike or a partnership or clear & strike ....to get back to a 2 handed asaault of heavy punches with a flanked fighter going back or down...keeping an attack going by using low straight kicks to reach what your fists cant and still attack forwards without moving offline in circles using round kicks etc...


Having said all this, when I fight I just do what needs to be done from 'life experience' of everything Ive ever done or experienced , no limit as your limit. Ive trained in gun use doing practical pistol competitions , that showed my VT training can cross over to ambidextrous firing , stance shifting is similar to swat 'duckwalks' and british military advance downrange when engaging targets. A calmness is achieved in chaos , from close quarte frenzy of chi-sao with 'friends' ; )...the isoscele triangle of firing can and does function in firing weapons in close quarter adrenalin rushes...as does 'punching shots' to avoid losing a target at close quarters by recoil even works with a 44 magnum
; ) ....adopting the evasive angling while seeking cover and firing at a target is tactical vt too....

gates are the targets the line is you firing back the rest is up to your reality


Many police officers got shot because they fired for real like they trained in the gun range ,,, standing square on 2 arms extended over and over so it became the unthinking response....what are you training to do without thinking over and over ? standing on the mirror of your firing line ? or seeking cover instinctively while firing back. simple idea really.

Using motion, motion & feinting motion or shifting to lines of entry we can free ourselves to become
a hard target , or to simply attack a bad over turned leg kick , shoulder driven cross or a jab and step entry ...attacking the jab as its thrown by parrying the fist by our jaw while strikng in under the extended arm , in the same beat , gate defined by their jab and our position to it...
obviously we cant always have this working so easily, so we have to maintain a perimeter without lead legs , as we shift before the dummy to go into sides ...we dont attack the dummy head on with lead leg entry....adopt a wait and see , we are there to go home not win prizes .
If they come you hit them in the zone , if they are more than one you adopt a tactical response to isolate them , this is done in other MA's too. Isolate and dominate with overwhleming forces. You just dont know what side to attack until they show you....Yip Man said this...your opponent will show you what to do.

[duende]

Nice discussion. Big thanks to Tony et all for bringing an "oldie but goodie" topic up to the fore once again.

I would just like to contribute a few things...


the gates serve to differentiate the spatial relations of our centerline to the area of an 'event' and the corresponding actions relative to it . we need to be able to move our line of fire while avoiding the incoming lines of force/fire back.

the tan never leaves the centerline, neither does jum , because they are strikes not blocks off the line. It can leave but its not what it does in the SLT. Nor does Jum.

Once the striking /flanking attacks are understood, the way we develop the ability to strike with arms along a line , both intersecting and deflecting each others actions into a positive partnership ...left jum attacks right arm, right tan attacks right arm...each striking as simple punches, BUT TRAINED in shapes , known as tan & jum. Each the 1st 1/2 of a strike in training only....tans sstrike strating point relative to our firing line...the fist goes on the line striking , while the elbow of the tan spreads off the line to deflect outwrds to the centerline...
the jum is the 1st 1/2 of a strike that the elbow stays along the line ....until it strikes off the line ...both strikes after te initial deflecting actions inherent in each , the gates we attack change the sides of the tan jum we adopt , but they NEVER leave to chase offline , they just face the changing actions by angling....gates /lines are the guides

By adopting gates we can isolate a simple idea that flows seamlessly from one side of the gate to the other. As a fight proceeds we simply change the sides of the striking arms to do the same thing but keep attacking the turning action by facing squarely to 'aim' the line as a rifle from the side , as we adopt one gate or the other to place the opponent in ...ie his right arm /torso/head is attacked by being in our right gate adn v~versa....the training gives us the ability to work these angles and facing to strike using each other as mirrors of ourselves to develop the striking ability ....ie I use a jum punch you use a tan punch equal and opposites serve to develop us to attack outsiders.

To develop this gate ability we do chisao facing square on for a balanced ability to function either side striking with tan/jum and having good defenses to sudden contact, with no mind attacking reactions ....short sharp over.

Knowledge of gates allows us to take advantage of bad lines of attack to us , ie wild swings etc...when a person swings from one gate to the next we can allow this, as it offers more, than trying to chase the arm and stop it like a commonly seen arm in air while the other strikes , standing front and center to the attack ...gate chasing ...gate chasers can be easily feinted to chase gates as can arm chasers of other styles.....thow an arm out to simply get them to move ....
A person trained to adopt a centerline gate attack will strike along the lines and not react to feints or 'over move / react , because the line is not left in training by tan or jum as blocks... the tendency to seek arms before us is removed in training to strike with arms that will ALSO remove while attacking constantly , either alone , in rotation tan jum tan jum...or jum tan jum tan :D sounds odd huh ?

All the actions serve to feed a gate attack ie [ just an example ] right bong sao goes left across the line to open the strike line for the left tan , using the left side of the forearm to deflect what the previous bong opened ,,, the same idea is done with the now following right jum strike, it uses the left/inside of forearm to strike as the tan retracts from striking or [ whatever jut etc..] ....then vice versa...we fight with simple strikes either side seamlessly...the shaving hands in SLT teach this extension , retraction to strike etc.. perpetual free rear hand to strike and back up the lead hand man sao / vu sao.

left pak + right tan strike + left jum strike ....

jut sao from intruprutions is on the line and back like a rubber band/ plyometric action on the attack line ...unlike lop sao that is bil gee grab and change course of attack or recover a badly applied bong sao...

once gates are known they are simply a place to have the opponent or a reference for training...ie seung ma toi ma drills when a partner is adopting an attacking entry with tan /step the partner responds by angling and striking with jum , balance is tested and striking focus in stages becoming full attacking entry if mistakes come from either ....a good attack response is stalemate, repeat etc...cycle until you die seeking perfection.


WE use bil gee to chase across the line from gate to gate , gaun sao was originally in bil gee to chase lower gates ...slt is primarly centerline attacking actions, chumkil maneuvers the vt fighter to gates and shift to reface with the fight in real time from chi-sao....facing as training with 2 extended arms rolling is redundant to the actual fighting ...






If the centerline is your rifle, placing the opponent in a gate takes them off line to you...shoot the guy while moving out of his fireing line ...he has 2 guns you have 2 guns. if he takes on eoffline you have the other to fire,.....he has 2 but you try to stay outside the 2 and attack one ...we face off to take advantage of the leading shot and prevent further attempts by attacking forwards with a self -clearing machine gun ...tactics


Nice post... from the perspective of Chi Sau perspective or Duei Ying Facing, I would have to say I'm pretty much in agreement.

However, Gate theory is much more than an outline for the center lines of attack.

Once a WC practitioner has acquired proper body mechanics and structural awareness, there becomes a clear and inherent advantage of timing, and spatial leverage (upon contact) that comes into play when one's gates are defined and fully implemented.

That is why in HFY we often say.... "we don't chase hands, we chase space"

The advantage of timing comes into play for many reasons. But one primary example is that with structural awareness, gate theory allows one to understand which tool/technique is the most efficient tool to get the job done. Meaning that it exposes the least amount of energy, while at the same time set's up proper positioning for attack or counter-attack the most effectively. All the while ensuring a safety-belt of proper distance and guard.

At it's pinnacle, gate theory can turn one simple single arm technique into an attack and defence at the same time on it's own... without the use of the other arm.


An advantage of spatial leverage comes into play by utilizing the physical law of "only one object can only occupy one space at one time". Again... through structural awareness and positioning, one can effectively use lines of attack to impair and dimmish potentially powerful strikes while using the least amount of force against force... or "crash" upon contact.

Gate theory allows one to alter the course an intended harmful trajectory without compromising one's one depth of space, or structure. This is done by chasing the space between you and your opponent, and creating a safe bridge to cross through a "soft landing" upon contact. A form of receiving energy where one's WU is still alive and both arms remain in play.

Therefore if one truly understands these principles the idea of "chasing gates" does not apply. As any effective domination of space between you and your opponent becomes another resource for the WC practitioner to make use of.

Of course this is only 4-gate understanding or what we more accurately refer to in HFY as 4-gate Tin Yan Dei.

6-gate Tin Yan Dei, involves footwork and some Jeui Ying timeframes.

On a final note, I would like to quickly add that gate theory also functions along with strategy and facing awareness. IE.. setting up one's footwork positioning against an opponent and reading their facing/positioning.

Also... through proper Gei Jong positioning one can effectively shrink their gates, and therefore create less space to cover. This can be done on either a horizontal or vertical plane.

Best to all,

Alex

[k gledhill]

glad you agree, but I have to add that MORE gates is not necessarily better ;)
I used to do more before I learened er ah ...less :D
I would also humbly add that Ive had a lot of fights /events that showed me , a lot of the redundancy that is being shown in VT training is simply misunderstood and not what will actually be used once fighting.....in real fighting your adopting time space strike movement with simple shots , not 3- move combos to a known strike coming....your moving to a guy you have never seen before coming at you and you shift relative to HIM and what hes doing , grabbing you, ducking down to charge you, and the available shot ...plam to head, fist to jaw etc... kick to groin/midsection...it is that simple in reality and effective.:D

[duende]

glad you agree, but I have to add that MORE gates is not necessarily better ;)
I used to do more before I learened er ah ...less :D

Not more gates, just sharing some MORE. :)

With more awareness comes less effort which means better efficiency.


in real fighting your adopting time space strike movement with simple shots , not 3- move combos to a known strike coming....

Nice... It's not about techniques, it is about making that bridge, and destroying your opponent's structure through effective domination of space.


Best,

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am having a bit of difficulty following the conversation. However, I will try to answer some of the questions asked of me.
I don't think the gate theory as such is greatly important other than as a reference. It helps to determine the use of defense or attach techniques I think. Especially when one is in the first stages of learning. And the designation of inner and outer gates is no different. It is simply for reference. The outer limits of the gates only extend to just past the shoulder width. The whole thing tends to be 3 dimentional.
I will not attack directly into someone's center line. Period. You would be attacking a fortified position in that case. It is far better to have your own fortified position be attacked because it puts you at a distince advantage.
I think everyone at one time or another will throw a hook or roundhouse punch, but it is not something that I would train for. The whole idea of a straight punch is that it has a ****her reach and you can actually align your weight and structure directly into that punch. A round punch is definately shorter. It travels the same distance as a straight punch, but it does so in a circle and you can not align behind it because it comes from the side.
I have a question of my own. I have read that Bil Gee violates the rules and principals of WC, and I wish someone would elaborate on that some.

[k gledhill]

I would offer that bil gee 'recovers' the primary rules or helps to regain the flanks , avoid and recover attacks from bad angles. How to release grabbed wrists , we lead with man sao, Ive had my wrists grabbed untold number of times fighting . Guys will grab the nearest thing to try and control it. We do this by raising the elbow over the forearm of the guy and dropping it down to remove the grabbing hand from our wrist....done while angling off or being at a flank with a lead hand etc...or someone tied to stop you chopping them with a big knife.
the hand actions after the lowering elbows is to recover the slt idea of tut sao , but under the arm , as if it has been raised , or someone raised their arm in defense to your assault...common, they lift up you cant continue 'over' the arm so you adopt the same ideas , but under, without skipping a beat and apply retract strike again ...

The flipping horizontal forearm actions X the line moving from shoulder to shoulder <-o->
this action can fight fast hands , with one hand like a sword fight ...
Arm attacks ie we strike the forearms with our own forearm bones ...a knife technique.
BG contains rudimentary knife actions that have no 'application' directly but as any MA can be adapted .
Lop sao is in BG to grab and control to change peoples 'course' we spin the guy on his axis line using the lop to regain an attack line that was stopped ...ie we attacked in and met a heavy response that stopped the 'charge' , we instantly grabbed the arm stopping us and turn the guy 90 deg or whatever and resume the initial idea of slt/ck bubble fighting.
If the bong is wrong you will use lop .
If someone grabs your lead wrist and tries to punch you you can grab their punch wrist and feed it to your grabbed hand to trap the guys 2 hands ....
low gaun sao and a high jum sao to deal with low gate attacks...
The 3 circle steps are just broken down knife actions to introduce angling /semicircle attacks and defensive retreats along the line adopted as the attackers positions
the footwork for the knives is left last to avoid confusing the students...early footwork
cuts into angles and uses bare hands ...weapons adopt wide evasive counters and attack the limbs by holding center and stab/chop/slice the body
the low swinging chop action from side to side is an attacking cut from knives , cuts are supported by the weight of the body , like chopping a tree we dont come in horizontally
or the tree absorbs the chop....think samurai and bamboo , they dont go horizontal either.
We 'duck' in the last section of BG for the required ability to duck from a weapon or a punch from a bad angle and come up knife/ hands held high to protect the head /neck
we drop and stab raise and protect.
The thrusting fingers underneath are the same concept as the SLT shaving hands only underneath and doing the same thing only under for the height disadvantage or raised arms as before ....

We can see the turning body & huen saos to facing sidepalms as knife parries to strikes, only isolated for training , not applications. open hands are the blade. Place yourself outside a stabbing arm and use the actions to chop /cut with the free hand as you parry the stabbing knife , then turn the parrying knife to a low disembowling gut slice, and leave to get away quickly and recover your space...

the initial hand strikes using wrists defections are as the hand would move if it held a knife stabbing and or chopping back down to a hilt block stab /chop , hilt down , stab/chop , empty hands and we seek meaning and adopt finger strikes ...
We can finger strike from SLT levels ...

do BG with 2 knives in your hands , ask someone to grab your wrists as you try to chop them , then use the collapsing wrist to chest elbow over their forearm as you bend down to recover your knife .....

BG is not so much last resort as , need to know this too in case plan A stops by simple grabbing , lifting , more than one attacker , dealing with fast hands and unable to flank...you can impress your friends by putting one hand behind your back as you parry all that they throw...but you will alwyas be striking and parrying in a 2 beat not 1 as SLT ...we can also use this concept to attack evasive heads , like a guy bobbing down from a strike we can turn the extended arm into a chop down or trap the head/neck from raising up etc....and control a bit to shove and recover strike distances , regain the attack impetus...

even someone grabbing your wrists up against a wall can be dealt with easily by doing each elbow drop over their arm one at a time , I have small weaker students do this to me using strong grabs to try to stop them.

Recovery of your trapped elbows , pinned etc....

BG takes us into a full circle of ability to fight without wondering what to do if ? happens.
Add a weapon and hey presto , your only doing the same things you have been doing from the begining , just in a cutting manner, same tactical ideas.etc...

p.s. although you can see the elbows as strikes, we dont do this because it is making you lose your primary ideas to enter into a range to deliver one elbow....you can do it if your close enough by fault but not by design. Ive hit guys with elbows just for the distances they came ....I just waited a little longer before 'sparking '..same results .

there are a lot of other things we can do combining any combo of actions and 'moments' so this is just a piece...

Lan saos can be used to remove grabbed wrists with turns , but this can be worse due to the 'un' facing required turning..all the guy has to do is ..let go... and youve just turned away from them ..bg alows you to remove the grab while still face and resume attack or be in a good position regardless..they will let go when they feel the wrist going...if you place a hand on theirs and dont let it go you have a little chi-na going on ...drop them to a knee as a submission.

herecy ! not pure VT ....lamo but its all good.

[Vajramusti]

IMO and practice and application- biu jee does not violate the basic prciples of wing chun.... atleast in the Ip man wing chun version that I do.
Sometimes insufficient distinctions are made in wing chun circles between fundamental principles
(related to jung sum sin and the gravitational connection), operational and contextual adjustments based on those rules, devlopmental routines, timing development (one of the many aspects of chi sao), adjusting to your opponent's motions etc.
Among the many functions of biu gee motions is to return to good centering.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Id also add that many havent got a clue what bg is for ...;)

If the primary idea is to attack you as my defense, how good is my attack if all you have to do is grab my wrists trap my elbow etc..lift my arm up ....?

If you have the knife ideas shown and explained first , it helps the beginers to see the path clearer.
The ideas run from start to finish , feeding each other, helping the other in a common goal of quick end to a fight.

It doesnt violate the principles if one understands the initial principals in the first place...then you see it as a way to keep the attack going , no 'stop n think' moments....sounds familiar ..."hmmm let me think " SLAP!!!!...dont think feeeeeel ; )

love that film