It's all about the distance

[Ultimatewingchun]

...one of my favorite subjects, especially since I've been like a broken record with the "wing chun is almost exclusively a short range striking system" mantra.

The following is a GREAT article about distance and range - and what's possible in each stage. Although done within an MMA mindset (of course, since crosstraining is the name of the game)...

nonetheless, a wing chun guy could get alot out of reading an article like this - and doubly so if he wants to spar an mma type guy and seeks to understand what that guy is thinking and strategizing.

http://www.rmaxi.com/flowcoach/?p=338

[k gledhill]

good read...zone 3 we 'try' to stay out of by training zone 2 by impact /angling /focus chi-sao not sticking hands facing square clinchlike....striking...using po-pai to regain zone 2 strikes. lose 2 enter 3 shove them forwards to 2 again, but not so much they are out of range again, like a wave , we can crash and recover, if they try to go for 3 , we can use our own momentum to keep the energy flow towards them , attacking...if they stop us at 2/3 we can use the lop , then to change their direction and shove them to strike again inch force is good here .... in what was ...'my world' ...zone 3.4. might get me killed, by glass or knife % higher for bad things facing more than one guy ...I avoid it if at all possible and just get up asap rather than seek submissions..guys will just surround you and kick you into a coma.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kevin,

What did you think of this part of the article?

Zone 3: This is where people seem to have the most trouble. Strikers tend to get to this zone and still throw straight punches. The compressed distance causes the punches to be jammed, and have less power and overall efficiency. It frustrates the fighter as they can’t figure out why they’re not able to knock the opponent out when they land. The problem is that the punch is being smothered. The line of force is broken and regardless of how much power you can generate, your ability to deliver that power with a straight line punch is greatly reduced.

In Zone 3 it’s the circular strikes. The inside hooks, the outside hooks, uppercuts and shovel hooks. This is also the place where you will have to fight FOR or AGAINST the clinch.

...................................

He seems to be saying that attacking the center from a very close distance with straight punches isn't necessarily a good thing - as the power of hooks and uppercuts from here will deliver more bang for the buck. The complete opposite of the wing chun theory and strategy.

Btw, this might be a trick question...:eek: :cool:

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun trains the individual and the individual does the action. So, the art is not limited
to a set distance. And running in from far or away is not unwingchuniish.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Kevin,

What did you think of this part of the article?

Zone 3: This is where people seem to have the most trouble. Strikers tend to get to this zone and still throw straight punches. The compressed distance causes the punches to be jammed, and have less power and overall efficiency. It frustrates the fighter as they can’t figure out why they’re not able to knock the opponent out when they land. The problem is that the punch is being smothered. The line of force is broken and regardless of how much power you can generate, your ability to deliver that power with a straight line punch is greatly reduced.

In Zone 3 it’s the circular strikes. The inside hooks, the outside hooks, uppercuts and shovel hooks. This is also the place where you will have to fight FOR or AGAINST the clinch.

...................................

He seems to be saying that attacking the center from a very close distance with straight punches isn't necessarily a good thing - as the power of hooks and uppercuts form here will deliver more bang for the buck. The complete opposite of the wing chun theory and strategy.

Btw, this might be a trick question...:eek: :cool:

I do this 3 zone myself when teaching beginners...if I steal ,even an inch, from the strike it loses its force measurably....We train to strike for this reason with more timing and angling to evade the line of force entry , while maintaining our own maximum efficiency, in the movement with the attack or our attacking entry....not to centers...When we get to this point , 2-3 , we shove the 'target' to recover our #2 and maintain the assault...we can go to kicks ....the attack is a science not a hope for the best idea ;)
Even reaching 3-4 is no guarantee of anything ...stalemates can happen from sturcture etc...we stay with what goes they on the other hand ,need to recover a certain working distance we are constantly inside , robbing them of force.
I stress impact training in chi-sao with seung ma toi ma drills...simple striking with force basics over and over ...inch force in the strikes to prove to the student #2 or bad # 3 if its 2 I go back...if its 3 they know it because I keep coming ; ) i do takedowns too

we adopt different tactics than holding center , shoulder to shoulder using curving shots...not vt.

I ask all students to try to 'hurt' me with a punch..hell thats what it for isnt it ? but youd be surprised how many veterans cant do it ...all I have to do is change your timing and distances , add an arm as bait and it gets hilarious...guys chase arms then hit with no force...then they get a clear shot and I step in ...no power...then I put an arm up again but now there is no forearm stucture to deflect and we trade punches...I take the arm away just as they try again and ..yup their after my arm again ..Im still standing there waiting for that 'punch':D..then we try to focus our minds on a simple thing .
hit me , deflect my arm, angle out of my line of force , stay balanced and maintain the next attacking action....that takes time and patience.
A good VT attack is not something Id like to receive myself as it is relentless until ended...or one turns away and stops fighting .
Its surprising how hard that simple ability is to achieve .

2 different fighters evolve from training in chi-sao to strike and those train in chi-sao to feel. Subtle but profound ly different outcomes....I know that personally .

[junmo]

great topic...very interesting....

...training WSL WC with one of gary lams students in Shanghai, but I also box and do a little muay thai...not because I want to be either one of those arts, but more to get the feeling of the distance and how these guys do it...also a punch in the head keeps you honest...

...so when I'm sparring with the boxing guys in particular the coach keeps telling me I'm gettign too close :D...but the guys who I spar with say that when I'm close and go from say a chasing shadow to facing shadow position using a hook...it hits them alot harder than they expected...elbow down biu gee style...which off course I get told off for because my elbow should be "higher" according to the boxers when I hook....:D :D...different mechanics, same result...without over committing in my view, is this how you see the differnce between boxing and WC?

2/3 I like...position 1 i don't...cause I'm short...and if the guys are good i eat a few on the way in sometimes...

..do you guys train possie 3 for shoulder strikes and things likes headbutts to get you back to pos 2?

[k gledhill]

A lot of times a head butt is a good way to start the whole 1234 :D
aka 'Scottish handshake' .." 'elo mate "... HEADBUTT!

[junmo]

...and here I was thinking the australians had dibs on that one :D....

so...being no expert by anymeans...I would like to hear how you guys bridge with a boxer...from 1 to 2...I slip fine against some of the bigger guys, when they are slower, but a mate of mine has a sanda/muay thai boxing background...and he's nailed me something beautiful on the way in at times....I tends to use alot of my angling from the drilling and live sparring I've done with pole/stick work ...but I'm open to any suggestions...

me...5'7 and 72 kg him....5'10/11 and 80 kg...any ideas before thursday would be good...lol :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I would like to hear how you guys bridge with a boxer" (junmo)


***I DO IT BY BOXING...:cool: :D

I'm serious. I use straight horizontal leads and rear crosses to chase positioning (not hands)....kind of like having a fencer's foil in each hand (the lead and the cross)...and I'm dueling his two arms for control of the two "CENTERLINES"....(actually referred to as central lines in TWC)....

the two centerlines that come out horizontally from his shoulders toward me....

including long range kicking to cover the same lines (so it's not just the lines coming horizontally toward me from his shoulders - and therefore "just" his punches I'm concerned with)....

it's the vertical lines running down both sides of his body from his sholders to his knees that I'm trying to control...

much the same way you try to control the main centerline in chi sao - only now it's two different lines...

AND FROM HERE - I try to work my way into the wing chun "zone".

[Vajramusti]

I don't do it by boxing- though I can. Why play the other guy's game.

Some wing chun lines including mine has far more integrated(body/feet/hands) foot work
than boxing.

If you use boxing it has to better than the boxer's.

joy chaudhuri

[junmo]

thanks for the answer UWC....Okay ...so if i get this right...your using line against line from a boxing position...to vie against his weapons on the same line right?...and once you get control of this area...maybe even that littel bit before you acelerate into zone 2?.....my problem is the reach thing...I'm at a disadvantage most times...so i rely on my footwork, I;m pretty compact and fast...but he keeps me wary on the entry...I'm more a counter -puncher, let him move or hit even and try to follow it in or intercept...but i would like to widen the scope more so I can try the offensive game from the start more often...once I'm in 2/3 I go full court press, but the offensive from 1/2 is a littlle slack

[k gledhill]

I would add kicks to feint etc... get him to lift his lead leg and feint to enter , attack the jab if he lead legs in with it by placing your right hand by your left ear/jaw and strike under the jab to whatever you feel would hurt most :D ....I use this simple thing and catch a lot of guys ....they step in with the left foot and jab with the left , you have to hit on the parry not be to far away , or to long....when they try to regain themselves you stay with them all the way to the nearest wall ...slam them up against it and use a flying head butt to finish ;) just kidding ...who can tell ? ;)

[junmo]

hi joy,

I still use my WC mechanice...sometimes I even start out in a boxing stance but onec we start I just mov naturally into wc, so that no one foot takes dominance on my positioning...angling...the issue is more about how I can make the 1/2 distance more effective in the sessions...I dont have a problem evading/deflecting strikes...its the bus ride thats the problem...and i don't kick with the boxing guys cause it wouldnt go down well...even though I'd love to ...lol..

[junmo]

kevin...is that something like if he steps in with a right cross, I've gone completely off the line on 45degree, but sent my fist on a looping uppercut down the centre line under his out stretched arm?...sort off splitting his attenion as to what my intention is?...its worked well a few times, but if he keeps it tight now i get less chances with it...

Cheers,

[k gledhill]

yeah, because we think to strike over arms the obvious is missed , he delivers a 'lever' extends his arm , attack that attack by slipping/parrying the arm , not to place force on it but guide or hold your line so it goes sideways to your forward entry...ie use forward attack lines with lateral deflections ....you can use bong this way too...it goes left to right and vice versa so you can use it to displace as you go in dropping the bong to clear your own attacking follow ups...boxers do this elbow raising too only facing shoulder to shoulder...if you add a FAST elbow up to bong it creates adisplacing force in the bong alone...so it becomes a working parry on lateral lines ....by contact or not it clears the way by making the guys extended arm pivot him on his axis if hes putting energy out to much or looking for a place to grab you or use distal force from the elbow. Why we keep the elbow as the control point , not the wrists.

try ballistic paks ...forceful slaps to your centerline , but dont allow your force to carry you past ther center if you miss....you can practice this for a jab in particular....even if you dont make contact with the feint /jab/ strike you hold the line .....if you do make contact the force transfer is unexpected by the recipient and can throw them offline easy., allowing a strike to the space created by the same hand on the line .." slap n strike " was WSl 'what was that move ' ?" you heard the slap and the guy going down ; ) ..if they dont get displaced you can work the extended lever by going under ...etc....try to avoid leaving your hand on the slapped arm or following it if you can simply strike with the vusao and go in , with 2 hands striking , rather than shut out the pak hand by over sticking /chasing ....LET GO and hit : )

you can practice that by just taking your elbow offline and think of your arm like a whip, the elbow the handle the hand the tip, whip to your centerline as fast as you can using the elbow to centerline as the driving lead action...hand last, so to speak, hold the line dont go past it , then you can add a strike from the centerline ...pak and strike one hand....this is also the jum strike action inside displacing force of the inside forearm coupled with a strike , only done in 1 beat to use the 2 forces together , so you have a striking hand using the lower sections of the arm , to low for pak , and still be aiming for the head regardless of contact or not...you dont have to think to use the deflections , they are inherently part of the strikes through dan chi-sao

attack for 9 out of 10 seconds and the % are in your favor....

a good visual is your deflections are a sliding door in front of you ..any pressure or lines of force that meet the sliding action left to right & vv are taken left to right or vv..the more force the more dispalcement results.....why we dont do 'jamming' actions' but rather lateral shifts of force...bong , pak , tan & jum strikes all have this

the triangle tip and back down the sides lead back to the base line that can be your shoulders or your jaw ..right lead man sao can guide force back to your left ear, while keeping the elbow point fixed and vversa...this allows you to enter forward while allowing the incoming line of force to keep coming and strike the timing head on , not pushing it away , robbing yourself of force ...actually helping the opponent to avoid getting hit to hard...put your hand on the centerline [ lead man sao] hold your pec tight and have a guy try to push in to your center....guide the push to your outside line jaw...step in and hit under the arm pushing to practice...
same with bong have them rest a hand on the lead hand [ man sao ] ask them to x over and use force , move the bong left to right , wrist xing the line , use the fore arm to guide the force...add more speed and chi-sao focus and you have a non thinking action ...any fore meets you, it has no place to rest...unless it grabs you so we have BG.

Because the focus is to not stick aka place force on guys we become striking anglers to lines of force coupled with simple ballistic lateral displacement actions ....the elbow is the focus point to control the force and alignment not wrist actions or hand chasing with wrists..or forwards fok sao bs on a bong sao to jamm it or use bong to jam forwards etc... ..forwards pressure using the distal portion of the arm is a nono,...even the strongest guys in class cant fight physics, if a strong guy knows this he stops trying to use distal force as many do naturally until the elbow theory is expalined... we can be taken sideways and get opened up in a blink of an eye.

[Ultimatewingchun]

thanks for the answer UWC....

***SURE.

...so if i get this right...you're using line against line from a boxing position - to vie against his weapons on the same line, right?

***EXACTLY.

...and once you get control of this area...maybe even that littLE bit before you acelerate into zone 2?

***YES, AGAIN.

.....my problem is the reach thing...I'm at a disadvantage most times...so I rely on my footwork...

***THE PERFECTLY STRAIGHT HORIZONTAL boxing punches (stiff leads and rear crosses) thrown with shoulder movement and torque - and when combined with footwork and kicks (use combos like a kickboxer would) can go a long way toward alleviating a short reach - and get you to the close wing chun zone...


Can you see my point?

[punchdrunk]

great thread with good replies, this is the stuff that makes the forum worthwhile. You guys all have great ideas!
Different guys, diff lineages, diff solutions but all good points. thanx for the read!

[anerlich]

...and here I was thinking the australians had dibs on that one

No way, this is very much a British tactic ... the best guys I've seen at this were a KF instructor and a bodybuilder/bouncer who used to do doors in Liverpool UK - both Poms.

There's quite a lot of good stuff on the RMAX site, and some of the products, perhaps mainly but not exclusively aimed at grapplers - some of it is a bit out there but so is a lot of stuff in the TCMA world.

[junmo]

...anerlich...it's a traditional right of passage that you receive, or least try to receive one of these somewhere between your 15th to 20th birthday in the outer eastern suburbs of melbourne :D...here in china...the headbutt is not unknown, but they prefer the 50 on 1 fight...more like ritual sacrifice....they all seem so peaceful ...

UWC, Kevin...thanks for the effort you put into explaning your views to me...much appreciated...

...come thursday...I will do a little experimenting on my mate at boxing ...lol

[k gledhill]

No problem , WSL used them too ;) he didn't do to bad with it :D

....tactics and aggressive attacks at your distance...attack constantly as your defense once your in...running helps to get the cardio up, capable of delivering a sustained assault. Dont hold your breath :D
No lead leg stance, attack 1/2 the person with 100 % 2 hands 1 leg , which 1/2 is up to him to try and hit you with and show you...stay with his entry , strike with the nearest hand that is free, stay with him as he tries to regain space, attack with abandon % +

you can always 'duck' just come up with hands by your head ; )

[junmo]

Dont know if you've seen this, but over here you get the "swarm". I've seen it happen on not such a large scale as this, more 1 or 2 guys with 10 - 15 attacking them...then where's your distance game?

As a foreigner if you get in a fight on the street here, punch and run...and fast...TIC...this is china baby....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X4FGs1033c&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-geUbjfAP0U - hair takedown at 38 seconds is brilliant

[k gledhill]

in 'football' [soccer] matches we get that on the main streets every weekend :D I used to do security at a pub directly opposite the chelsea stadium....:D one night we watched a police horse charge against a visiting team called millwall ...it was like a monty python sketch...couples drinking in the bar with all hell breaking loose outside the windows , cops on horseback going past the windows , guys running into the pub , we knew as locals asking us if they had been stabbed in the back as they ran away from the mobs ...fun ? not :D...but its the norm, thats why you dont want to ever go down grappling . you get a group /mob just kicking you, because you have on the wrong 'colors'.

[Graychuan]

For classification purposes one can define ranges for techniques. In fighting there is only ONE real range... The range you need to be in to make your art work..whatever that art may be.

Love, peace & Chitlin' Grease,

~Cg~