Seconday Art of choice

[WoodenYummy]

In the book "Living the Martial Way", the author recommends studying your primary art intensely, and then (eventually) adding a secondary art to "fill the gaps" so to speak. I have seen many schools that pair WC with some form of Philipino stick fighting, whether it be Arnis, Kali, Escrima, etc... What have the rest of you found to be a good "complementary" art to WC? Do you try to find a secondary art that adheres (as close as possible) to the basic concepts of WC (i.e. centerline theory), or do you look for something that deals with ranges not specifically addressed by WC? I know many who are interested in the MMA scene prefer to supplement their WC with BJJ. What about Tai Chi, does anyone think this would be a good compliment to your WC training? I imagine it "could" really help with chi sao/sensitivity training, as well as help make one's WC more "soft".... What about boxing? Or are the strikes too fundamentally different? I know there is no exact answer to this, just trying to tap some of these WC resources out there. Thanks!

[ittokaos]

Hello,

Now before I give my 2 cents I feel that I must first mention that I am not a sifu nor am I a master of WC. What I am is a martial artist trying to better his skill the best way I know how.

With that said, while I value the opinion of the author your book, I do not believe that one would HAVE to learn another style to fill in the gaps. WC was created to be simplistic in nature but is very deep once studied. If you truly understand your style you may never feel the need to fill in said "gaps". In the past, masters studied other styles for a variety of reasons and yes some felt that their styles needed more but these individuals were masters of their styles and a lot of times simply modified their styles with movements from other styles that they felt were lacking in their own. For example, it is said that Wong Fei Hung added the long armed strikes of Lion's Roar to his Hung Gar because he felt that his Hung Gar would benefit from such movements(or maybe he thought they looked cool).

Another reason that one would learn another style would be to learn more about there own. Lets say that you truly understand Northern Mantis and then you meet a master of Bagua. After talking for a while, he shows you some Bagua movements. You go home and start to work on the movements that you were just shown but as you do you cant help but feel that you have seen something similar before. You then realize that these movements have been in your Northern Mantis all along however you didnt notice them because although they were present they werent very noticable to you because your teacher wasnt aware of them(for one reason or another) and you were never taught this variation of these movements. You then notice that now that you have realized this part you can see much more in your past lessons that you never really thought about.

You now have found a new way to look at your style. You can now look at other styles and do the same. Your Northern Mantis can now reach a very high level and your might never feel the need to fill in the gaps because in your experience there have never been any.

Anyway, if you really feel like you need a style to work along side your WC, try Hung Gar. A lot of the movements are the same once you break them down(just look at the whole Iron Wire set).

I hope this helps

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think Japanese Jujitsu compliments WC. It gives you additional concepts to feed from. Any form of MA that requires a stick or weapon of some sort is not going to float because this is not something that you will find feasable. Laws might actually prohibit this. BJJ is more of a ring fighting system, and it does not lend well for simple self defense like the full system does. I think either is a good stand alone system if trained well. I actually feel that these 2 systems are probably the most efficient and can be mastered by just about anyone, no matter their physical attributes.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Im not a wing chun master by any means but i have spent a number of years training in okinawan te jujitsu prior to and along with wing chun training. My sifu is also a sensei in JJ. We both agree that JJ and WC are very similar. with the exception of 1 or 2 types of throws all the JJ is in wc and vice versa. The throws are there the locks are there in wc weither you see them or apply them is a matter of your teacher and how far along you are in the system.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Im not a wing chun master by any means but i have spent a number of years training in okinawan te jujitsu prior to and along with wing chun training. My sifu is also a sensei in JJ. We both agree that JJ and WC are very similar. with the exception of 1 or 2 types of throws all the JJ is in wc and vice versa. The throws are there the locks are there in wc weither you see them or apply them is a matter of your teacher and how far along you are in the system.
__________________

I have to agree. I have thought about this a lot. Most systems of MA seem to have been born from Jujitsu. Karate, judo, aikido, just about everything seems to share some of it, so why not wing chun? Jujitsu seems to be a bottomless pit of techniques and variations of the same. The man that taught me jujitsu also told me that it had come to japan from china long ago.
What I find so beautiful about it is that WC has the best entry techniques, and you can more easily enter into a jj technique by using the WC defense. When trapping you can lead into a hold or a throw rather than into a striking technique. I was also told that there are no submissions in jujitsu. That is for the ring. You choke your opponent unconcious or break something off of him.

[WingChunWay]

In the book "Living the Martial Way", the author recommends studying your primary art intensely, and then (eventually) adding a secondary art to "fill the gaps" so to speak. I have seen many schools that pair WC with some form of Philipino stick fighting, whether it be Arnis, Kali, Escrima, etc... What have the rest of you found to be a good "complementary" art to WC? Do you try to find a secondary art that adheres (as close as possible) to the basic concepts of WC (i.e. centerline theory), or do you look for something that deals with ranges not specifically addressed by WC? I know many who are interested in the MMA scene prefer to supplement their WC with BJJ. What about Tai Chi, does anyone think this would be a good compliment to your WC training? I imagine it "could" really help with chi sao/sensitivity training, as well as help make one's WC more "soft".... What about boxing? Or are the strikes too fundamentally different? I know there is no exact answer to this, just trying to tap some of these WC resources out there. Thanks!

I agree with studying two arts at once, one major, one minor. It keeps the mind thinking outside the box a bit more. In my first decade of training I did every martial art I could find until my nights where filled up, in my second decade I settled into Wing Chun and Muay Thai, in my third, I went with Tai Chi and Wing Chun. For a while there I got into the BJJ, but non of the guys I trained with could stop an eye gouge within the first few seconds of contact, so I decided to let it go.
If you click on the youtube link below you will see what the Tai Chi has done to my Wing Chun, if you can still call it Wing Chun. (I call it Buddhist Wing Chun because I teach allot of Buddhism in classes)
In hindesight I believe learning Tai Chi was the best thing I ever did for my Wing Chun training. Just find a Tai Chi teacher who can launch you, other wise it will be a waste of time.
Best of luck with your journey,
Mark

[Knifefighter]

IFor a while there I got into the BJJ, but non of the guys I trained with could stop an eye gouge within the first few seconds of contact, so I decided to let it go.

LOL... what a dufus. You eye gouged people every time you trained BJJ? Yeah right. Must be a lot of one-eyed and blind BJJ guys out there.

One way to spot the truly clueless is by their posts about the "deadly" eye gouge.

[ittokaos]

He probably just meant "poke".

[WingChunWay]

Hey knife fighter,
Placing the thumb or finger into the eye gouge position is a valid submission when training for self defense, especially when someone is trying for the take down. There are allot of grapplers who pay special attention to covering the eyes during grappling because of the high risk. Next time you are on the mat, play a game, side A looks for the normal submission, side B looks for the eye gouge submission. Side B almost always wins. Its a fun game you should try it.
Mark

[Knifefighter]

Hey knife fighter,
Placing the thumb or finger into the eye gouge position is a valid submission when training for self defense, especially when someone is trying for the take down. There are allot of grapplers who pay special attention to covering the eyes during grappling because of the high risk. Next time you are on the mat, play a game, side A looks for the normal submission, side B looks for the eye gouge submission. Side B almost always wins. Its a fun game you should try it.
Mark

LOL... I've been eye gouged several times for real. Never stopped me. When I was at the Gracie academy, people who came in for the challenge matches often tried eye gouges. I never saw one be successful.

Here are a couple of videos of NHB challenge matches in which eye gouges were allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the eye gouge attempts are what led John to be able to secure the arm to set up the arm break.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the guy on the bottom attempting the eye gouges got his fingers bitten for his efforts.

Get a clue.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most eye gouges are not sincere when done in a ring situation. No one wants to blind another person in the name of sport. I have used the eye gouge on several occasions. It is a very dangerous technique if done in earnest. No one alive can stand up to having a hand driven up to the mid knuckles with extreme force into the eye socket. If the fingers go above the eye ball it will pop right out of the head and hang down over the cheek. If you don't think that will break up a fight.

[Iron-Man]

WC has more to it than eye gouges. And what a silly argument anyway ! Firstly in a real fight with equal agression and without weapons its generally accepted that the bigger guy has the advantage hence we have weight categories in competitions, so showing a clip of a fight between unevenly sized opponent is rather like showing me that an average 6 years old can outrun a child of 4 !

Regardless of style the ability to finish a fight is based on power and timing with the skill to deliver the finish. Even if this kung fu guy got his perfect strike i doubt whether he would have had enough power to knocked the other guy out or even to slowed him down , in fact i would have put money on the bigger guy even if he had only 2 weeks grappling experience from watching you tube !

Generally WC without competitive training at full power and speed is pretty inneffective against any trained fighters and as most kung fu practitioners spend their time on drills, forms and light sparring then its no wonder they dont do so well against their grappling counterparts.

It seems silly to me when a grapplers is only trying to force a submission from a sparring session we get people talking about eye gouges and groin strikes ! So the statement if i am not mistaken is that a section of our WC community believes that without the above so called 'deadly strikes' we dont have enough effective tactical head or body strikes to neutralise someones who only want to roll around on the floor ? Maybe if that is the case you should give up training completely as i fear for the day you ever have to use your 'deadly WC' for real to defend yourself as you are likely to end up in jail !

With views like this its no wonder more and more people are opting to train in MMA and grappling.............effective self defence without having to stick your fingers in someones eyes !

[couch]

So the statement if i am not mistaken is that a section of our WC community believes that without the above so called 'deadly strikes' we dont have enough effective tactical head or body strikes to neutralise someones who only want to roll around on the floor ?

It is my belief (and first-hand experience) that if I'm squaring off with an expert on the floor, I'm going to have to work very hard to stay standing up.

And it is my believe (and first-hand experience) that if I'm taken to the ground, my a$$ will be gra$$.

I don't think it has to do with a 'section of our WC community' but instead with a section of people who don't want to pressure-test their martial art. And, honestly, I'm okay with that. To each their own. I squared off with a BJJ brown belt and was quickly destroyed. ...but his stand-up was brutal and that's where I dominated. The key was to keep him standing at all costs. Just an example.

Best,
K

[t_niehoff]

LOL... I've been eye gouged several times for real. Never stopped me. When I was at the Gracie academy, people who came in for the challenge matches often tried eye gouges. I never saw one be successful.

Here are a couple of videos of NHB challenge matches in which eye gouges were allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the eye gouge attempts are what led John to be able to secure the arm to set up the arm break.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the guy on the bottom attempting the eye gouges got his fingers bitten for his efforts.

Get a clue.

In my view and from my experience, eye pokes - like the other "foul tactics" - can be useful. Their significance is however greatly over-portrayed by the fantasy guys; they tend to be mainly distractions and not fight-stoppers. Moreover, they also tend to be very difficult to really pull off when really going all out and when they fail can often leave you in a worse position than if you had done something else. Not only that, but the fighter more likely to be able to pull those "foul tactics" off will be the guys with the better fighting skills, guys who are better able to pull just about anything off (and consequently, who won't need to rely on "foul tactics"). For example, on the ground, the better grappler will better able to bite, poke, etc. you since he will be better able to control you (which is why he is better able to apply submissions) and in stand-up the really good kickboxer (who spends hundreds of hours actually kicking with real power in sparring and only needs to adjust the target of his kicks) will be better able to kick the groin or knee. The upshot of that is that a technique or tactic, including "foul" shots, isn't going to save you against a better fighter.

[t_niehoff]

In the book "Living the Martial Way", the author recommends studying your primary art intensely, and then (eventually) adding a secondary art to "fill the gaps" so to speak. I have seen many schools that pair WC with some form of Philipino stick fighting, whether it be Arnis, Kali, Escrima, etc... What have the rest of you found to be a good "complementary" art to WC? Do you try to find a secondary art that adheres (as close as possible) to the basic concepts of WC (i.e. centerline theory), or do you look for something that deals with ranges not specifically addressed by WC? I know many who are interested in the MMA scene prefer to supplement their WC with BJJ. What about Tai Chi, does anyone think this would be a good compliment to your WC training? I imagine it "could" really help with chi sao/sensitivity training, as well as help make one's WC more "soft".... What about boxing? Or are the strikes too fundamentally different? I know there is no exact answer to this, just trying to tap some of these WC resources out there. Thanks!

Instead of imagining ("I imagine it could . . . ") why not find out for yourself? The only way to see what YOU need is by seeing what you need. In my view, this is a major part of training -- seeing where you are lacking. No one can tell you. You need to see that for yourself. The only way to see that is by putting yourself in a position to see it.

[monji112000]

LOL... I've been eye gouged several times for real. Never stopped me. When I was at the Gracie academy, people who came in for the challenge matches often tried eye gouges. I never saw one be successful.

Here are a couple of videos of NHB challenge matches in which eye gouges were allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the eye gouge attempts are what led John to be able to secure the arm to set up the arm break.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo
In this one, the guy on the bottom attempting the eye gouges got his fingers bitten for his efforts.

Get a clue.

hmm thats a topic we have never talked about...:rolleyes:
although I must admit its useful in some situations, in general its a waste of time. If your dealing with a halfway skilled grappler your going to get a broken arm.
You also have the flip side of him just fish hooking and eye poking you.
You could throw the same argument with punching and elbows, yet that doesn't disqualify grappling in MMA.
that stuff isn't illegal in MMA because people fall over and die..
sure you can really hurt someone, but if thats all your doing ... your in trouble.

[k gledhill]

I met up with my brother years back and was telling him about VT and how wonderful it was etc...yawn :D He had moved to Florida recently, I was still in the UK, London. He said he bought a 9mm beretta :D after my vt 'story'. That did it for me...as ME i didnt just buy a gun , but eneded up competing in outdoor and indoor ranges , target competitions for accuracy in booths , practical 9mm pistol comp's outdoors ...being an instructor at the home range and doing what I did with Martial arts mind to guns...practicing breaking down just taking the safety off with my thumb [ non thinking] drawing the clip out while holding target and re-inserting new clips ...drawing from the holster ..etc...the list is endless. Adopting stress-fire techniques developed by Mas Ayoub, who advocates ma's training to develop the gun fighter aka policeman . He used aiki-do 360 turns for acquiring a target . Tai-chi for relaxed stances, sanshin for breath control...He also had a a technique for punching the gun at close quarters , thats was any ma vertical fist :D...so I had that one down..it works too.
As does the particular gun aiming techniques that he advocated. The isosceles triangle for its ability to equalize adrenalin altering grips under real stress ...Vt angles...
Using footwork on open military ranges while advancing on targets with fully automatic HK mp5 :D, ...the shuffle steps of VT are the same as British military, also very similar to the S.W.A.T 'duck walk'...the similarities abound and fluidly from VT to practical pistol use.

Secondary arts dont have to be bare hands do they ? :D

Vt is a good basic level for practical pistol events, turning stances , good co-ordination and ability to use either hand for firing from cover either side , left or right handed...I found chi-sao carried over by making any 'jam's a calm affair rather than a frenetic loss of mind...with nobody doing strikes at 100 mph in my face , anything else seemed sedate...even reloading midpoint of a course of fire in a 9mm comp ...

Just some alternative thinking.

[Graychuan]

I met up with my brother years back and was telling him about VT and how wonderful it was etc...yawn :D He had moved to Florida recently, I was still in the UK, London. He said he bought a 9mm beretta :D after my vt 'story'. That did it for me...as ME i didnt just buy a gun , but eneded up competing in outdoor and indoor ranges , target competitions for accuracy in booths , practical 9mm pistol comp's outdoors ...being an instructor at the home range and doing what I did with Martial arts mind to guns...practicing breaking down just taking the safety off with my thumb [ non thinking] drawing the clip out while holding target and re-inserting new clips ...drawing from the holster ..etc...the list is endless. Adopting stress-fire techniques developed by Mas Ayoub, who advocates ma's training to develop the gun fighter aka policeman . He used aiki-do 360 turns for acquiring a target . Tai-chi for relaxed stances, sanshin for breath control...He also had a a technique for punching the gun at close quarters , thats was any ma vertical fist :D...so I had that one down..it works too.
As does the particular gun aiming techniques that he advocated. The isosceles triangle for its ability to equalize adrenalin altering grips under real stress ...Vt angles...
Using footwork on open military ranges while advancing on targets with fully automatic HK mp5 :D, ...the shuffle steps of VT are the same as British military, also very similar to the S.W.A.T 'duck walk'...the similarities abound and fluidly from VT to practical pistol use.

Secondary arts dont have to be bare hands do they ? :D

Vt is a good basic level for practical pistol events, turning stances , good co-ordination and ability to use either hand for firing from cover either side , left or right handed...I found chi-sao carried over by making any 'jam's a calm affair rather than a frenetic loss of mind...with nobody doing strikes at 100 mph in my face , anything else seemed sedate...even reloading midpoint of a course of fire in a 9mm comp ...

Just some alternative thinking.

Very Very Very good points there,K. Here are some other thoughts on guns and self defense.
In dealing with armed attackers, specifically guns, I can only offer one realistic suggestion...


Any modern day martial artist that wants to seriously address self-defense, should just go ahead and get a concealed/carry deadly weapon license. This will lend insight to a couple of pertinant issues...

1. I know for a fact that in the state of Kentucky the law is only on your side with firearms and lethal force if it is justified. Wrenching the gun from an assailant then shooting them with it may seem appropriate but as soon as you do this they will be unarmed and you will have the gun. The law will not be on your side. However if you have your own gun then you will be ok...as long as you shoot first.

2. In Kentucky, the concealed carry law covers any legally obtainable weapon, including bladed weapons. So you only need a gun to pass the firearm part of the test to get the certification... but you still have a choice if you dont want to carry a gun. So if your state recognizes your right to carry then my opinion is that you are only exercising your rights as a tax-paying citizen to get the license whether you own a gun or not.

#3. In Kentucky small self-defense weapons such as spiked batons or spiked keychains are also considered concealed deadly weapons. I believe any blade over 3" long is considered a deadly weapon. So any female martial artists or just anyone who isnt licensed but carries one of these for self defense then you are probably on the wrong side of the law. So, in keeping with point #2...rent or borrow a gun. Pass the test. Then get rid of the gun and carry what you are comfortable with.

Love, Peace & Chitlin Grease

[Ali. R]

That’s very true in what he’s saying and in fact we’re are both license carriers (Gray 9mm) myself 44 cal. Magnum snub-nose…

Well said, and that’s a good chunk of advice…:D


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

in ny its not happening to get a concealed carry :D its not the legal carriers I worry about here ;) ... To get a carry permit you have to prove certain points , the majority, for the given restrictions , dont get a carry permit only home permit... I know some states make it mandatory to own a gun...In England guns were banned after a crazy sob went into a kindergarten doing head shots...the only guys with guns are police and bad men ....its the 'bad man' who scares me...placing me in a position that might take me to a federal prison, Ive been 'incarcerated' :rolleyes: on several occasions and found the first thing that I missed was my freedom. A simple word that means everything to me.

taking a gun is quite easy when you know the levers. Doing it for real is another thing altogether :D life or death, make your move :D

Gun 'retention' is as important , doing vt gives us ambidextrous ability to trap and handcuff or draw the weapon.

some good advice my old sifu V Kan gave me while doing a seminar here in NYC ..."dont argue with anyone " thats why everyone is so polite lmao !!

I had a similar discussion while doing several seminars on the west coast...at a dinner banquet after the show ,we sat and discussed guns etc...how london had restrictions, no less than 3 guys at the table of eight , pulled the guns out under the table to show them...another guy took me to his car to show me his car 'armoury ' this was in SF .

[WoodenYummy]

Instead of imagining ("I imagine it could . . . ") why not find out for yourself? The only way to see what YOU need is by seeing what you need. In my view, this is a major part of training -- seeing where you are lacking. No one can tell you. You need to see that for yourself. The only way to see that is by putting yourself in a position to see it.

Thanks Terrence, I was not suggesting I need you guys to help ME make up my mind, I was just asking others for their thoughts on this idea (the one mentioned in the book)... The way you talk about it you'd think I'm a useless slug with no mind of my own, waiting for others to "tell" me what I should do. Sometimes I really think you are the King of common sense! I was curious what others have seen paired with WC, and how effective they thought it was. I wasn't asking for you to analyse me and tell me my short-comings.

As to everyone else, I think the discussions turn to hand-guns was interesting. It wasn't something I had considered when asking this question, but I do see it as a valid point. Though I am opposed to carrying one myself, to each his own. Some of the earlier posts suggested JuJitsu, are the principles REALLY that close to WC? I have some expereince in small-circle JJ, and while I think the two can certainly be merged, I don't think they operate on the same principles at all. Same goes for the stick arts & tai Chi. I think they can all add another layer to your game for sure, but none of these seems to "fit" with the principles of WC... Any thoughts?

[k gledhill]

vt + bjj = natural flow I added some of my own 'other' arts...practical pistol competitions are fun and can focus the mind . They can be mixed with 'pre-event' stress simulations like 25 squat thrusts, push ups... running to a 50 yard line and back to beat a guy , then have the 'range officers' hide the gun when you get back :D those guys ....or having big flash/bangs go off with smoke so you cant even see your targets, then have a guy screaming in your ear to shoot specific shots....and having another range officer , shoot a 9mm at your feet while its all going on to 'simulate' [ thats real to me :D] a guy shooting at you...you feel the dirt hit your legs from the impact of the bullets...these are friends doing this ;):D:D:D

[SimonM]

Misc. wrestling: a mix of judo, wrestling, jjj, shuai jiao, etc - whatever works.

[Iron-Man]

In my view and from my experience, eye pokes - like the other "foul tactics" - can be useful. Their significance is however greatly over-portrayed by the fantasy guys; they tend to be mainly distractions and not fight-stoppers.

In the ring they are certainly a distraction and not usually a fight stopper and you will rarely not see a time-out when it does accidently happen. But on the streets a finger in the eye would certainly put you at an dis-advantage psychologically and physically in a fight ! Whether one could pull it off consistently is debatable i guess its like you said .......are you a skilled fighter and do you seriously train to execute the move. The same would apply to Head-butts........illegal in the ring yet effective if you can pull them off.

At the end of the day WC was not concieved with competition in mind hence the inclusion of the 'foul tactics'. If WC had recently been designed for the modern ring then i am sure it be quite different........... or more likely WC would not have been concieved at all ! Its rather pointless to compare a centuries old fighting system against a much more modern MMA !

If you went back in time and compared Grecco to WC then that would have been interesting.

To say that WC is an effective street fighting art would not be inaccurate but to suggest that a traditionally trained WC fighter could effectively compete against a modern MMA in the ring would be a rather ludricous IMO !

[t_niehoff]

In the ring they are certainly a distraction and not usually a fight stopper and you will rarely not see a time-out when it does accidently happen. But on the streets a finger in the eye would certainly put you at an dis-advantage psychologically and physically in a fight !


As I said, these sorts of things can be useful, but they are greatly over-blown in terms of possible effectiveness (in terms of effect they will have). Effectiveness does not depend on the location/venue of a fight. Realistic skills work under realistic conditions regardless of venue.



Whether one could pull it off consistently is debatable i guess its like you said .......are you a skilled fighter and do you seriously train to execute the move. The same would apply to Head-butts........illegal in the ring yet effective if you can pull them off.


The trouble with "foul tactics" is that we really can't practice them realistically, so we can't really develop much in the way of skill doing them under realistic conditions.



At the end of the day WC was not concieved with competition in mind hence the inclusion of the 'foul tactics'. If WC had recently been designed for the modern ring then i am sure it be quite different........... or more likely WC would not have been concieved at all ! Its rather pointless to compare a centuries old fighting system against a much more modern MMA !


In my view, such comparisons are necessary.



If you went back in time and compared Grecco to WC then that would have been interesting.

To say that WC is an effective street fighting art would not be inaccurate but to suggest that a traditionally trained WC fighter could effectively compete against a modern MMA in the ring would be a rather ludricous IMO !

I don't think it makes sense to say an art is effective. It's not the art that is effective, it is the person using the art that is or is not effective (the art doesn't work by itself). And that depends more on how they train than anything else. WCK fighters that train like modern fighters have fared well.

[Liddel]

LOL... I've been eye gouged several times for real. Never stopped me. When I was at the Gracie academy, people who came in for the challenge matches often tried eye gouges. I never saw one be successful.


In a street fight Dale / training / or cage match ?
Cause i ask....can you really practice an eye gouge ?

IME on the ground or standing, you take position and lightly press but every time the defender feels this they have time to react...why ? cause im not actually gouging his eye with intent ! i can't !

Nor would the guy in the vid you posted Dale, i doubt he had enough balls, i wouldnt... eye gouges are ruff.. and youd only break it out when your life depended on it NOT if your in a challenge match....but IMO...

If an opponent can press a little before you react then the reality is that if they wanted to, they could and would press so hard that you could only scramble and scream in pain....but its training man.

Ive been shown CQB takedowns that are very effective using wrap around eye gouges from the clinch, does BJJ have similar techs ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic.... Woody -

My VT training is coming to an end, Sifu is already retired but hes ending his home school (15 of us) after 12 years for me, and ive been eyeing up (excuse the pun) a BJJ school with a freestyle MMA class so i can continue to work my VT...but add an all important ground game....

DREW

[Iron-Man]

I don't think it makes sense to say an art is effective. It's not the art that is effective, it is the person using the art that is or is not effective (the art doesn't work by itself). And that depends more on how they train than anything else. WCK fighters that train like modern fighters have fared well.


I think i would not be wrong in saying that if we took Aikido to the streets that it would not be as effective in that enviroment as say WC. Off course i am assuming we are talking about the same training for both. I'm sure there is a bad way to do the breast stroke and a more efficient way regardless of training .........


It is pretty much accepted that 'no one style has it all'.............and some have more than others and that MMA strive to put the best together. Then we have different MMA depending on what you mix together ?

[couch]

I think i would not be wrong in saying that if we took Aikido to the streets that it would not be as effective in that enviroment as say WC. Off course i am assuming we are talking about the same training for both. I'm sure there is a bad way to do the breast stroke and a more efficient way regardless of training .........


It is pretty much accepted that 'no one style has it all'.............and some have more than others and that MMA strive to put the best together. Then we have different MMA depending on what you mix together ?

Aikido, IMO, sucks mostly because of the same reason any MA sucks: it's not pressure tested in situations that you are likely to encounter. Sure, you can have all these straight-arm chops to start out with in Aikido...but that's where the progression can stop.

Same with WC...could stagnate at all types of stages...including the Chi Sau stage. Could stagnate in Karate at the point-sparring stage or the kata stage.

Best,
Kenton

[t_niehoff]

Aikido, IMO, sucks mostly because of the same reason any MA sucks: it's not pressure tested in situations that you are likely to encounter. Sure, you can have all these straight-arm chops to start out with in Aikido...but that's where the progression can stop.

Same with WC...could stagnate at all types of stages...including the Chi Sau stage. Could stagnate in Karate at the point-sparring stage or the kata stage.

Best,
Kenton

More accurately, I think the reason aikido practitioners or anyone for that matter never attains good functional fighting skills is because of how they train. Physical skill in doing anything comes from really doing it, not by not doing it. Not "pressure testing" it -- doing it. In a fighting art, doing it means doing it in fighting, so the pressure is just the environment in which we do it. You can't do it without the pressure. Boxers, for example, don't "pressure test" their boxing -- boxing is doing it under pressure. No pressure, no boxing (sort of like saying you're not swimming unless you are in the water; it's not a matter of "water testing" your swimming).