5 elements in wing chun

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Ive heard of Gary Lam talking about it anyone else heard? If so is it in there? personally i know little about internal MA any enlightening would be greatly appreciated.

[RGVWingChun]

I know that William Cheung has some information on the 5 elements and how they relate in Wing Chun. My old sifu, Master Ron Heimberger taught the 5 elements to us as well. I know that I have heard Ip Ching say that his father, Ip Man, took out the metaphysical aspects of the art (like the 5 elements) in order to simplify teaching the art. YOu can find this quoted in Ip Ching's article on his father that is found on the Ving Tsun Athletic Association website as well.

Moses

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Ive heard wing chun called "a good mix of both internal and external" <-from Sam Kwok Im just 1 1/2 years in the chun so my knowledge of the finer points is limited. Know any aspects that would make wing chun an internal MA?

[Buddha_Fist]

5 Elements are a mnemonic to help you remember. Problem is, there is no time to try to remember using a mnemonic - there is only time for trained reactions. Ving Tsun is simple, don't complicate...

[Katsu Jin Ken]

just looking for the internal connections

[RGVWingChun]

Ive heard wing chun called "a good mix of both internal and external" <-from Sam Kwok Im just 1 1/2 years in the chun so my knowledge of the finer points is limited. Know any aspects that would make wing chun an internal MA?

Are you training with Master Kwok? He's coming down to Texas for a seminar in October.

As per the internal elements, my old sifu used to teach the internals in the first third of the Siu LIm Tao form which seems to be generally where most people teach them. Generally they associate the different positions with a corresponding element. For instance, the chamber position under my old sifu was the earth element, the tan sao was the metal element, the huen sao was the water element, the wu sao would be the the wood element and the fook sao the fire element. The breathing or "hei gong" was emphasized here as well though it seems that different teachers do something different here as well. Some do a hard style chi kung breathing (like my old sifu) while some do a soft style chi kung . I think Ip Chun says in one of his books with Michael Tse simply mentions to breath while placing your tongue on the roof of your mouth.

As somebody already mentioned though, the elements do complicate things and apparently Ip Man felt the same way and took them out of the system.

Moses

[couch]

I think Ip Chun says in one of his books with Michael Tse simply mentions to breath while placing your tongue on the roof of your mouth.
Moses

I put the tongue on the roof of my mouth as well. I've bitten it too many times during training sessions! LOL

...it also completes a circuit within the human body's energy system.

Best,
K

[RGVWingChun]

yup...completing the energy circuit is the idea with the tongue on the roof of the mouth....but during training? LOL I haven't heard that one....I only do it during the form....breath in through your nose and out through your mouth was what I was about it....during training like Chi sao and other stuff I usually just keep it natural and in my mouth so I don't bite it especially during chi sao since "you never know" ;) lol

Moses

[LoneTiger108]

As somebody already mentioned though, the elements do complicate things and apparently Ip Man felt the same way and took them out of the system.

I find the 5 element concept actually simplifies many things, but can understand why Ip Man felt like it wasn't needed (to teach commercially)

Fortunately for Lee Shing I think he was very familiar with these 'old ways' and how they are useful in the coaching process, more than we all really know imo.

Anyone who has a Mui Faa (plum blossom/5 petal flower) within their logo really should know how the 5 elements are adapted into their own training. Older Taoist principles are utilized by some of us but I've found this to be outside the norm in many Wing Chun circles.

The 'characteristic' approach is actually quite well promoted in a movie I once saw, called 'Warriors of Virtue'! And I believe that the number 5 plays a significant role in Chinese Martial Art history and folklore, so why wouldn't it be neccessary? Why would Ip Man discard it for some and not others?

Five Elements in Wing Chun? How does Lam Sifu explain it's use?

[Vajramusti]

The five elements are deeply embedded in aspects of older Chinese culture.

It is also there in TCM. I would not jump to conclusion on what Ip Man thought about the 5 elements. It's too easy to make broad generalizations.

joy chaudhuri

[RGVWingChun]

Well I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions about what Ip Man taught about the elements. According to Ip Chun, Ip Man did teach with the elements to the early students in Foshan but when he moved and taught in Hong Kong he removed those teachings. The foshan students would criticize the hong kong students for not having knowledge of the elements and other concepts but said that the practices and stuff that the elements tried to get across were still there, just not in the same language (This is in Ip Chun's Wing Chun Martial Arts book).

Also, Ip Ching has an article about his father in which he also states that his father did not teach things like the elements, or the mui fa jong as they he felt that they complicated a simplistic art. This article can be found on the VTAA website . I believe the article is called "My Father, Ip Man".

Me personally, I think I have missed much by not continuing my training with the elements. I think it becomes overly complicated thinking in chi sao - but more power to ya if you can - to be processing movements according to elements and seeking the corresponding element to destroy or neutralize the incoming element. I know teachers who teach the 5 elements on the Mook Yan Jong!!! "If the dummy attacks you with a water movement, the next movement should be a wood movement" =/ just seems a bit tedious when you can say something like "it makes sense to use such and such movement...."

Moses