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word
10-06-2000, 03:17 AM
Here's the truth on Raul Ortiz. He didn't know what the hell he learned before. Was it pure mantis? No. It was mantis combined with choy lay fut, hung gar and other styles. He made tapes that were supposed to be 7 star though. If you look at his post " WHY SO MANY FORMS" a member (yee ho society) asks him why he uses tiger claws etc. ......... ORTIZ RESPONDS BY SAYING HE NEVER CLAIMED TO TEACH 7 STAR! THATS' HIS EXPLANATION FOR HIS MIXED UP STYLE. TODAY HE IS TEACHING A MORE LEGITIMATE 7 STAR BECAUSE HE HAS FOUND CL AND LEE KAM WING. bEFORE HE WAS MAKING UP **** AS HE WENT ALONG.

ORTIZ, EVERYONE IN THE MANTIS CIRCLES KNOWS YOU MADE UP ****. NOW YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH A LITTLE BETTER MANTIS SINCE YOU FOUND BETTER SIFUS. YOU PRODUCE THE BEST MANTIS STUDENTS AROUND? ARROGANT AREN'T YOU?

Tang Lang
10-06-2000, 06:56 PM
WORD (EARTH WORM)

I wasn't going to comment on your bull****!, but since you are trying to offend me my Sifu's and my clan, I felt compeled to answer.

Get your facts straight you PUNK!...either you're STUPID or you can't READ!

What I said was the tapes that I made do not say 7 Star mantis style. First of all if you knew anything about mantis, you would have known that they are northern mantis forms.

I always taught 7 Star at my school. And where the hell do you get that my mantis is a mix of Choy Lut Fut, you idiot.

You can say what ever you want about me and you can call me arrogant, because I have earned the right to be arrogant and conceited. You see, little earth worm, if you have done it, then is not considered bragging.

If you don't think that I have produced some of the finest mantis students around, lets put it to a test. You call the place and time and I'll be there with my students.

After they rip you apart, you tell me if I'm arrogant. Listen punk, I want you! and when I find out who you are, you will regret the day you decided to talk **** about me and any other Sifu or student on this board, trust me earth worm! lot's of people are looking for you.

AND WE WILL FIND YOU SOONER OR LATER!

Remember PUNK you have my school address, if I'm not all that, come on take me on, what the hell do you have to lose?

I call you out once again, yet you do not accept.
Why are you AFRAID? (I'm no good according to you, so you should be able to wipe the floor with me)come on lets dance?

Another thing is amazing how you can interact with some of my students and yet you consider me no good, you really make me laugh, oh boy I think I'm going to pee in my pants from the laughter.

You have my address you EARTH WORM! use it!

(Tang lang is my student, please any response answer to Qi Xing Tong Long.)
Ortiz, Sifu
/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

Magnus750
10-07-2000, 09:29 PM
Wow, that was an intelligent and dignified response that surely will result in no legal action of any kind, LOL. I saw you on a tape, and you seem to have good point sparring skills, but you miss the point(that spinning top drill hanging from the string was hilarious). It is about Jin, and the drills should reflect that. The most effective attacks are elbows, and you need to address that if you are marketing yourself as "authentic" Mantis. The waist, hips, and feet/legs are the source of power, and you seem to ignore that. Do you know what the three bows are? Do you know the concepts of Dan Tien and Tsun Kwan? Do you even condition yourself? Lift weights? You lack a fighter's humility as well. If you want, set up an NHB match. I will be competing next summer (when I have time off from college /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). This is not an offensive challenge, like the one you posted, but rather an opportunity for you to take a real direction in fighting and not this cultish "I WANT YOU" approach LOL.

word
10-08-2000, 08:58 AM
WOW! you sure dont' act like a sifu. Looks like I touched a soft spot eh? I know many people agree with me but hold back on posting. Magnum agrees with me. ARE ALL OF YOU GOING TO CALL HIM A TROLL NOW? If you do , that says a lot about kung fu today. Raul does the first section of a hung gar form (tiger Crane) with a mantis hand and passed it off as traditional 7 star mantis. That was a joke. My post got 5 stars. That's cool.

Rochester7StarMantis
10-08-2000, 11:27 PM
Magnus,
I thought only Word was capable of ruining perfectly good threads.
How can you expect anyone reading this to take you seriously. What is your Name? Who did you train with? You live only a few mile from Ortiz's school, and rather than go there and talk crap to his face, you hide in cyberspace and post B.S. Do everyone a favor, go back to standing in front of a mirror and telling yourself how tuff you are.
As for word, a friend of mine seen him and told me he is no good. He also said that word gave up training after being cut from the Special Olympic Tae Kwon Do team.
Brian,
Rochester7StarMantis
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magnus750
10-08-2000, 11:55 PM
Look, I fully intend on taking a look at Raul's school, and I don't stand in front of a mirror LOL ... that's for you point sparrers /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do use mirrors when shadow boxing sometimes, to check angles, form, stance sometimes... but you don't box, do you...? Btw, the word is spelled "tough" LOL. Plenty of people take me seriously, I could care less about a gay stranger such as yourself. As far as that goes, I don't believe that line about the special Olympics TKD team, and I didn't know that the special Olympics had a TKD team at all. Making fun of the Special Olympics and the handicapped people who have more heart than you and your ilk ever could is shameful, anyway. You and Raul deserve each other; you both post ridiculous self-aggrandizing threads that are personal insults (rather poorly presented, I might add) and totally avoid the questions of legitimacy. I trained with Rick Marallo in VT. He learned Mantis with Kris Valentine. That's as far as I know, and I did not think to ask for a ridiculous "82 forms lineage chart", as we used Mantis concepts as part of our whole training. Also included was a lot of Boxing and Karate. Mantis was always my favorite though /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The concepts of crossing Jin (torque) and generating power through rotational power and the use of the legs, hips, and waist was the important thing to grasp, and we did it well. I make no effort to "hide" LOL I practically posted right where I live, and I included my e-mail for contact information. Rick was quick to point out, many years ago, that modern wu shu was useless and "flicky". That is the kind of movement that I saw on Raul Ortiz's tape. The drills involving the top and striking with the finger will get you killed in a real fight. Mantis uses the elbows and a lot of palm attacks. That's real Mantis, though, not fantasy point sparring, where tagging someone with the fingertips can make them fall. Also I have trained in some jujitsu (though I don't have a belt rank) and I have trained with some collegiate wrestlers, two of whom were state champions from Middlebury, VT. I also knew other wrestlers, many of whom trained harder than the point sparrers who tried to stay at range and kick. I will check out Ortiz's school, if it makes you feel better, when I get a car, and when I have the time, probably in December when I am out of college. I would much rather make the commute to Lawclansman's school, since he has a lot more character, insight, and legitimate credentials than Ortiz. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. If you and your "ninja" clan want to look for me LOL like word, be my guest. I will be happy to knock you unconscious. I really think it is a bad idea, though, since you obviously need those two brain cells that you and Raul seem to share, what with all your "WE WILL FIND YOU" posts. You're a joker anyway, this is more of an expository post than a true rebuttal, as such concepts are likely wasted on cretins such as yourself anyway.

mantis7
10-09-2000, 05:08 AM
Look I trained with Sifu Ortiz for a long time... When we trained and fought it was always full contact.. We even touched hands ( bare ) quite a few times and I can tell you what he does in class is far from the point sparring done in tounamemts,,,
Just fot FYI... My training now consist of just drilling my basic concepts and body conditioning.. That means drilling my basic skills hundreds of times. Conditioning my arms legs and other body parts on a new iron pipe dummy I just recently built.... Shadowboxing with my techniques and heavy bag work along with strength training in the gym.....as well as taking yoga...and enduracnce building training...

Oh Magus remember that Sifu Ortiz created those videos quite sometime ago.... Everyone evoles ( hopefully) also remember that anyone who makes a tape and I mean anyone usually holds back info or skill on the tapes..... plus you perform a video for instructional use and not to show case your true skill......also video tapes are for money plain and simple..( my personal view )

and waist jing can be defined as a top but it can be more of a cork screw type of drilling but with every type of movement either in a punch or kick is diffrent and hell in a throw there is waist jing.. When moving like that it is more of a top drilling movement like a drill going into the ground... but that is my take on it...plus a few of yiming yang students take on it also but I am still researching it also so I am open to ideas and theroy...

I dont like the idea of using vidoe tapes to learn gung fu for the simple reason you can not learn to fight from them unles you have some type of training to truly understand it...
Boxer dont do it.... but I digress.. Fightting in Sifu Ortiz school included all ranges ( yes ground fighting) There were knock outs ( belive me I know I have given some and take a lot) This was at the south bronx school...

So becareful what you are willing to do.. Either you are very dumb to issue a challenege and then say you will check out the school expecting to be able to walk away with out backing your WORD up or your THAT DAM GOOD and have no fear... Remember beaing sure of yourself is a good thing but having no fear isnt and by no means am I blinded to the fact the Sifu Ortiz can be beat but I know win or lose both of you are going to the hospital....

Also I am wondering are you related to WORD he stops posting then you start.... Just coiencednce (sp) but hey you two seem to write a like....but hey what do I know...

oh yeah I am currently training under Sifu Albright in 7 star praying mantis...and I can tell you HE IS THAT DAM GOOD... ( you guys got to see his sticking skills )

Victor

Oh and Magus I dont think you are a troll and neither is word.. LOL I just love to bust his chops as much as he does everyone else.... but proof is in the pudding stick your finger and taste I just hope you dont draw back a nub..

( This has been a another 2 cents from the peanut gallery brought to by the Gung fu is for crazy people association )
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by mantis7 on 10-09-00 at 10:16 PM.]

Tang Lang
10-09-2000, 10:22 PM
Magnus:

First of all no one is questioning my credentials, I worked hard to earn every bit of knowledge that I have gained and still seeking.

You stress yourself on the fact that you say 82 forms is rediculous, well maybe to you, you say i have no Jin, well that is your opinion, you also state that you have seen me with your own eyes, well that is a lie, you have seen me in a tape done when I was in my 20's, I am in my 40's now.

Do you honestly think that I have not been practicing. I have to agree with you in the matter of me coming on to strong towards word, but you see, this word, is just a troll, all he does is talk bad about everybody. And it gets to the point when you get upset.

Let me get back to the forms, it's not just knowing the forms, but knowing how to use them that matters and you are correct, just cause you know the forms doesn't make you a fighter.

But you see, I am a fighter and have been known as a fighter, I have fought in bare knuckle tournaments, you say you did Kyokushin, well in 86 I took the bare knuckle championship,by the way I used my traditional techniques from my forms with my Jin.

About the tapes, you mentioned in another post that you saw me hitting the top lids hanging from a string, but what you had mentioned on that post is wrong. You see I never said that by using this type of training method that you would be able to drop someone with a finger strike.

What I said was, these is one method that you can use to help you focus your finger strike to a moving target. This way when you fight your eyes and your finger will be accurate in your strike to your opponents eye.

Listen, everyone has their own training method that helps them. There is a saying in spanish "POR GUSTO SE HICIERON LOS COLORES" meaning, "Colors were made for individual taste".

My tea might not be your cup of tea, but to come out bluntly and say that I'm no good, you don't even know me or how I teach. So, since you go to school not to far from my school, I suggest to you to stop by and we can chat, and we can exchange ideas. This way you can observe how I teach and if you still can find what you are looking for in my school, then fine, but at least you have witness it by yourself in person and not by what you saw on a video.

No instructor that I know would put what he completely on a tape. We might teach a for, but in order to understand that form, don't you think that it's important to go and seek that Sifu and find out.

You are going to college right know, are you cutting your courses by a 1/3 or 1/2? I'm sure you are not. So, why would you cut the mantis by so much?

When you study medicine, you study the whole thing, not just certain subjects. How you practice your medicine will determine how great of a doctor you become.

Same thing with the mantis system, you might think that 82 forms is stupid, well I have to say that is a matter of opinion, but then all you have done is just scratch the surface, and we must go in deep into the system to even understand Jin.

I have no ill feelings towards anyone including you. Because I know what I know, if you care to share, then I will, if not so it be. But remember we the mantis family from the CCM line are trying to work together and better ourselves.

I make mistakes just like anyone else and I am willing to correct them as well. That's the true warrior. My reputation as a fighter speaks for it self and I have been there and done that. Just remember one thing (I think that you are in your 20's, but not sure)I have been your age, but you still have not been mine.

Good luck in your journey!

(please address to Qi Xing Tong Long, Tang lang is my student, just used his reply forum)

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

WongFeHung
10-18-2000, 03:14 AM
Magnum, tell me when you go to Sifu Ortiz' mo gwoon, I love watching him fight!-Seriuosly, I have competed with, demonstrated with and have done seminars with Sifu Ortiz, and you can rest assured, his Mantis is the real deal, (you don't have to like him,hey, alot of people don't like me either, get in line!)don't think for a moment that you can judge a person's knowledge by what he gives away for free to the general public in a video. It is an unwritten law in kung-fu that you don't give out to non-initiates, look at Paul Eng's books,or Lee Kam Wing's, is he showing high-level technique? Of course not, he is showing the "profane" simple applications so they can get a handle on the system, not mastery.Gung-Fu is taught in layers. A Sifu might teach many versions of the same form to his students; one for the entry level, one for more advanced, and still another version for closed-door disciples. If you are not aware of these facts, you need to spend more time with your Sifu.

BeiTangLang
10-18-2000, 01:48 PM
First off I have to say that this is not about sifu ortiz, his instucion, nor his tapes. I do not know him, have not seen him & have no reason to at this time at my level(low). It is a reply to TenTigers.

Different form variations per level?? Ludicrous! That would boost forms required to be known to a b/s level of numbers. As far as videos are concerned, if you are not going to show something that is the truth, then what you are showing is a lie. Showing a simple but true application for movements & advancing the applications for the moves is the way a student should be advanced regarless of being an open/closed/swinging door student or not.
Just my take on things of course, but a form should be a form, should be a form; only the level of application should change.
-my 3 cents....one day I'll have enough to buy somthing....LOL!
-BT

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

WongFeHung
10-19-2000, 12:59 AM
okay, maybe I should make this more clear; subtle changes in stance, faht ging,striking areas, or anatomical weapons would have a profound effect on the form, thus changing it. For a beginner student, these concepts are too obscure. BTW, my Sifu teaches different versions for the major forms in our system, but then again, there are only four major forms in the system,so it's not like learning 80 somewhat forms over again.(however, the major forms each contain over 200 moves, so it is still work)

bamboo_ leaf
10-19-2000, 03:27 AM
Can any one here actuly say that theve done anything to promote CMA other then find some one who dose and then attempt to discreadit them.

The leaders of the mantis community are responsable for accrediting teachers or people teaching X-mantis style. I see none of them posting on this borad. So what is gained from all this? ///

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

Magnus750
10-19-2000, 07:00 AM
fellas, with a very few exceptions (this is not aimed at everyone on here), you all should stay out of any kind of fights. I come back to this forum in a few days and I find a boatload of excuses and more forms talk. CMA needs serious reform, or it will die. All that will remain are a couple of gay forms collections, that will get beat down and sodomized in any real fight by the likes of any brawler. You people(you know who you are) should wake up.

word
10-19-2000, 08:07 AM
Raul Ortiz sucks.

RODRIGUEZ
10-19-2000, 01:15 PM
Raul Ortiz sucks.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]
Word, Do I sense jealousy? Yours seems to be a case of ad hominem. Surely you cannot be making the 'sucks' remark in reference to Sifu Ortiz's skill in his martial arts ability. I think you know this and probably first hand,but what do I know right.This leads me to believe that this is very personal. Does he have something you wish you had? Has he achieved something you wish you had? By chance have you ever gotten your A** whipped by him in a tournament or elsewhere in days gone by?

mantis7
10-20-2000, 08:00 AM
Hey word your old buddy is back... So I got a question for you word... Have you ever been to one of his classes have you seen him fight live??? have you anything besides his tapes to base your assumption on ????

Just wondering... oh yeah when are your tapes coming out I am dying to see it....

WongFeHung
10-20-2000, 04:36 PM
Magnum, as far as promoting Chinese Martial Arts, tournament competition gets us out there, and producing videos does more than line your pocket, it puts you out in the public's eye. This of course opens you up to all sorts of criticism as well, but these are the risks we take, and in this case Sifu Ortiz is no exception. He has also brought Lee Kam Wing out here for seminars, and he has performed seminars in the area with other martial artists, in an attempt to bring the CMA community together. In the Chinese Martial Arts Community (Mo-Lum),it is a very small world, NY particularly is small, if I sneeze out here on LI, you can bet someone in Chinatown is saying "gesundtite"(doesn't sound very Chinese, does it?) The problem with alot of Kung-Fu schools is that tthey don't compete. There are the usual excuses, like 'the judges are from Karate, and don't know how to judge us" or whatever, but Sifu Ortiz, and myself as well as a handfull of CMA out here have been competeing in open tournaments, and Chinese tournaments, and we've been highly successful in both arenas, while the majority haven't even seen a tournament, let alone competed in, judged,officiated, or reffed one. It's all very easy to sit behind your pc and point fingers and sling mud, but untill you get out there, on the floor,in the judges seat, or as a center ref in the middle of two heavyweight fighters, it would be best to keep silent.

MiamiMantis
10-20-2000, 04:43 PM
I agree. Lets keep this related to the promotion of Praying Mantis, not personal attacks. If you have a problem with someone, keep it out of the forum, and go visit him or her at their school if possible. You can express your personal view, but not as character attacks. Remember were all playing the same game just on different teams. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

bamboo_ leaf
10-20-2000, 05:58 PM
yes i agree, but i don't see not competing in the turnaments here as a problem. some of the other mantis Sifus take thire classes to China or sponser seminares in China or even bring well known people from Asia to broden our understanding of mantis.

attemping to evaluate well known people on a public fourm dose what?

as one post said, go to the school or talk directly to the Teacher.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

word
10-22-2000, 03:58 AM
Raul is just playing the political game. Many sifus are playing this political game to help their name get out. Tournaments, seminars, meeting every sifu . . .

Do you ever see these " sifus" discussing techniques? No. They just talk about crap..

word
06-09-2001, 08:14 PM
afdssfdsdfadf

Taijimantis
06-10-2001, 10:04 AM
I am dissappointed that someone who would stick up for the heart and soul of the handicapped people, would use the word "gay" to describe things as stupid. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with intelligence.

As for the rest of you I will repeat what I have said in the past.


Word is full of ****.
You know word is full of ****.
I know word is full of ****.
Even word knows he is full of ****.

Why not just leave it at that? Getting all upset only fuels his motivation.
You guys just be glad I am not a moderator :)

As far as 86 forms being ridiculous...
Tai Chi Mantis has at least 100.
That is the empty hand sets.
The two man empty hand sets.
The single weapons sets.
The double weapons sets.
The two man weapons sets.
The three man weapons sets.

Then there is the Tai Chi side of it...

Northern mantis is a big system.

May peace be your guide and serenity light your path.

Namaste.

Taijimantis
06-10-2001, 10:06 AM
Word is proud his post got four stars...

Any idiot can rate these things if I remember correctly.

aw.axis
06-12-2001, 01:02 AM
Thanks for the poll Word, all I can say is that if i am ever in the states I will look up Sifu Raul and you to see how you both train and what you both could teach me. Perhaps you will let us know where we can train with you so I can judge for myself the merits of your techniques. You guys obviously dont get on for whatever reason, but for those who are interested in training why not tell us where you train or which sifu you learned under so we can see and learn.

Good luck to you.

Nathan
06-18-2001, 04:33 AM
Please do not react to comments about associated members of our sect. YOU must learn not to let others negativily effect your judgement and actions. We are not puppets on a string.

Nathan Chukueke

Hua Lin Laoshi
06-18-2001, 07:45 PM
al

Where do you train? I just got back from England and was wondering where I might find some Mantis schools in case I have to go back.

aw.axis
06-19-2001, 12:35 AM
Leicester (7 star mantis) is my school in the UK, if you log on to the ITSWA web site you will find a list of the 7 star schools and details on the ITSWA instructors around the UK. I am afraid I cant help if your an 8 Step or Tai Mantis practitioner, as I havent come across any UK schools as yet.

Hope this helps.

alecM
06-19-2001, 11:37 AM
Hi al I'm a Choy Lee Fut practitioner but I have two close friends who are 7 Star mantis instructors up here in the North East, Sifu Paul Tenet and Sifu Dave Graham. I have met Sifu Fearson a couple of times and I have had the honour of meeting Master Lee Kam when I once came down to Leicester .

Saying is not boasting at all. These views and words are mine, and do not represent my Sifu or school.

Hua Lin Laoshi
06-19-2001, 10:12 PM
al

I practice Wah Lum but I like to visit other schools in the area when I travel.

alecM

I just got back (to the U.S.) from Lancaster and I didn't see any Kung Fu around there. I'm not sure yet if I'll be going back but I'd like to know what's in the area just in case. Preferable Mantis but Choy Lay Fut is interesting as well.

aw.axis
06-20-2001, 01:00 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys its good to know there are other UK kung fu practitioners out there, TKD and karate seem to be flavour of the year in the UK at the moment. Alec there is a summer school scheduled in Barnsley in July with Sifu Lee Kam Wing teaching, as well as Wing Chun, Lion Dance, Tai Chi and Chi Kung. You would be very welcome if you wish to attend, I hope to make at least a day of the training (Kwan dao v Kwan dao form and double tiger hooks could be a possibility for more experienced mantis practitioners, as well as basics). Hua, there used to be Wah Lum Mantis but it seems to have gone quiet over here over the last few years (would appreciate any information on existing clubs from any other guys who are looking at this forum). If you ever return to the UK and are around the area you would be welcome. I dont know of any clubs around the Lancaster area (sorry not being much help there) but I will keep my ears/eyes open for you.

All the best

Hua Lin Laoshi
06-20-2001, 10:31 PM
Sifu Dave Hawkins used to have a Wah Lum school in Hinckley I believe. He left Wah Lum awhile back and is currently training/teaching Choy Lay Fut. I haven't seen him in years.

aw.axis
06-22-2001, 02:28 AM
Yes Hua, Sifu Dave Hawkins is still around the Leicester area and he does indeed teach Choy Lee Fut now, I have never trained with him but he was involved in the Chinese New Year celebrations for the year of the dragon some time back, and said hello to some of his students who were involved in the lion dance. They seemed quite a friendly bunch and the celebrations seemed to go well. I dont know why he stopped teaching Wah Lum and started with Choy Lee Fut, but he is certainly still teaching at the moment.

Best Regards

Al

alecM
06-22-2001, 05:14 PM
Sorry I won't be able to a tend the seminar with master Lee Kam due to personal reasons. As for Dave Hawkins he is indeed teaching Choy Lee Fut he is currently a student of my Sifu Edmund Ng.

Saying is not boasting at all. These views and words are mine, and do not represent my Sifu or school.