poll: who is the best wing chun practioner youve seen?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

my instructors (nobody famous) augustine fong, eddie chong, and david grados top my list.

[couch]

my instructors (nobody famous) augustine fong, eddie chong, and david grados top my list.

My mom. Definitely.

[JGTevo]

Yip Man :D

Bruce Lee had the fitness worked out, regardless of the arguments of how much/how little he knew - He had the physical aspect worked out to where he could have looked incredible doing ANY form. He also had the creative mind to attempt to expand his knowledge - Successful or not, I've seen some pretty pathetic attempts to emulate this :( I've also seen some really good attempts as well.. He seemed to have believed in expandng his knowledge of all things though, rather than the current trend of simply mixing and matching styles.

[Liddel]

Well id be mad if i didnt say my teacher. Sifu Yau - Lok Yiu Lineage.
At 63 his structure and timing still make you think hes a strong guy when he aint :p

Heres a pic from the late 70's when he was in a few independent HK films -

http://hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=3977&display_set=eng

Im always impressed with many from the WSL line.

Gary Lam / Clive potter / Sifu Bayer (sp)

I like this guys Chi Sao and Gor Sao, hes got a good foundation....must have a good teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ysiddiqui

Quite a broad question really. But thats my lot.

DREW

[RGVWingChun]

Master Samuel Kwok has by far been the most impressive wing chun practitioner that I have had the distinct pleasure of training with and crossing hands with.....I, of course, still have to give Grandmaster Ip Ching the hugest amount of respect!!!!!!!!!!!

Moses

[Dave P]

Wong Shun Leung and Philipp Bayer

[Vajramusti]

Lots of folks will list their sifu and/or their sigung. Plus, there are experience differences in
who really has seen what when and how.

joy chaudhuri

[Paul T England]

Difficult to give an order but....

The people I study with and keep going back to must impress me!!! Trevor Jefferson, David Peterson, Lun Kai.

In only met Barry Lee and Wong Shun Leung once but they both impressed me with their skills and attitude.

Ip Chun, Ip Ching and Tsui Shong Tin have unique skills that impress me.

Duncan Leung, Robert Chu, Alan Orr, Ernie Barrios, Gary Lam Sam Kwok & Gwok Gai Jan would also be on my list.

[CFT]

I like this guys Chi Sao and Gor Sao, hes got a good foundation....must have a good teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ysiddiquiHe's Michael Louison from the WSLVT line.

Mainly from sifus: Nino Bernardo and Ng Chun Hong according to his website.

I only have first hand experience of Alan Orr and Alan Gibson teaching in a seminar setting and very much liked their teaching style.

There are some really fine clips (and DVDs) of Alan Orr sifu teaching Chu Sau Lei WCK body structure.

Similarly there are some good clips and DVDs of Alan Gibson sifu out there. I've got to say the WSL line of teachers are very impressive with their directness.

___________

Best wishes,
Chee.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

This is off the subject but what's Gor Sao?

[RGVWingChun]

gor sau is like free application chi sau

[Ernie]

I have seen many ,, trained with many ,, some might say a few of the big names ..
been around the globe a bit as well

to answer your question .... based on ''hands on'' directly with the main individual or senior students [ which is really the true testament to a persons training methods ,,how well they can pass it on to the regular guy ,, not just how special that one individual may or may not be ]

and as far as Im concerned there is no best ... best in respect to what ? definitely not fighting none of these cats are out fighting most are to old or just not interested .
so you got some guys good at Chi sau which is 90% trickery or set up that only exist because your doing ''chi sau ''

some are good Technicians in the training methods of there particular system or approach ( since they set the rules and create there individual nuances of course they control there game )

some are flashy and entertaining

so the ''best'' you can hope for is to enjoy what ever ''show'' you signed up for :cool:

[Hendrik]

I still didnt find one who do 60% of what the ancient kuit recorded. I dont find doesnt mean they dont exist.

Keep looking still.

[k gledhill]

Philipp Bayer

[Ultimatewingchun]

William Cheung, when I first met him back in 1983,84,85...simply incredible at that time. Including having the best, strongest, fasted, and most versatile kicking arsenal I have ever seen in any wing chun guy to this day - with the lone exception to that being Bruce Lee....although William's overall wing chun arsenal left Bruce in the dust, I'm sure.

In fact, his overall knowledge and skill level of wing chun (be it TWC or Center-of-mass wing chun) was beyond anything or anyone I had ever met, touched hands with (ie.- Moy Yat, Victor Kan, Mak Po)...or seen in books, magazine articles, or videos.

I regret the fact that William has pretty much dropped COM wing chun from his program as the years went by and began only teaching that which is markedly different about Traditional Wing Chun (TWC)...different than COM (ie.- the blindside strategy and it's corresponding footwork, central principles, etc)...

as an MMA guy at the present time - which I prefer to understand as "Multi" Martial Arts rather than "Mixed" Martial Arts - since the latter now cannotates a certain type of technique program that I prefer to go beyond - SUCH AS ADDING WING CHUN INTO THE MIX (as well as lots of catch wrestling)...

as such an MMA guy - I prefer to MIX both approaches to wing chun.

That said, the elements of TWC clearly dominate my total wing chun package.

And a very honorable mention to people like Wong Shun Leung, Gary Lam, and Duncan Leung - the training vids I have (or have seen) by these three being top shelf examples of COM wing chun.

[weakstudent]

sifu jose grados

[Kris Wu Tang]

my sifu mark hobbs for sure the best I've ever seen and practiced with.

[Vajramusti]

The late "Moe"- he was better than Larry and Curly

joy chaudhuri

[paul resnick]

the best wing chun master i ever saw is without a doubt sifu sergio iadarola

www.sifusergio.com

[Matrix]

The late "Moe"- he was better than Larry and Curly

joy chaudhuriJoy,
C'mon. Larry is definitely the top stooge. :p ;):D

[RGVWingChun]

Just watched a video of Ip Ching doing Chi Sao with Samuel Kwok...I'm gonna have to go with Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok with still much props to Ip Chun.

Moses

[bennyvt]

my teachers sifu barry lee is the best ive seen or felt. But any wsl or lok yui teacher would top my list

[Achilles1987]

Definetly Grand Master Leung Ting. He is an extraordinary man. Dai-Sifu Emin Boztepe could be the second greatest Wing Tsun man i have ever seen. One of my friends who is studying under Sifu Murat Kaplan has joined few seminars of Grand Master Augustine Fong and he says he is an extremely good Wing Chun practionner. Also he said that Sigung Augustine has a very good sense of humour and he laughes and smiles very oftenly.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,
C'mon. Larry is definitely the top stooge. :p ;):D[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Moe's biu gee and wu sao better than Larry's?

joy chaudhuri

[htowndragon]

kenneth chung

[Wu Wei Wu]

This Sifu demonstrates a pretty good palm strike technique on his assistant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2szNKnsXo

(pretty much sums up how pointless this thread is!)

[anerlich]

Jackie Chan

[Ernie]

Bruce LeeRoy :rolleyes:

[Katsu Jin Ken]

what are the throwing wings in chum kiu used for? Always kindof been a mystery to me any thoughts?

[k gledhill]

ballistic bong sao's aka line clearing methods to end the fight quickly....:D

[zuti car]

David Cheung

[couch]

what are the throwing wings in chum kiu used for? Always kindof been a mystery to me any thoughts?

Also something to consider is: Where are your hands in the form BEFORE and AFTER the technique is performed. I think a lot of the techniques are situational. That's why in Chum Kiu, before you perform the double low-Bong Sau, most lineages drop their hands first.

Eg: If your hands are down and an opponent strikes you low, you wouldn't have the time to bring your arm up and then back down using a Gan Sau....your elbow is already at the perfect height and can fire out with a Low Action Bong quite quickly!

Best,
Kenton

[hunt1]

Enough already. We all know that you think your Sifu or Sigung etc is/ are the best ever. Blind love of Sifu and all he teaches is alive and well. I get it.

[htowndragon]

i dont do wc. so i can say im neutral

[bennyvt]

i was taught the main use for the double low bong was when someone is grabbing and pulling you keeping your wrist down hence the bigger step this is to firmlte the force without having to be able to lift your wrist. But it is also the first time you are in the proper fighting stance. There are other but less used ideas

[couch]

i was taught the main use for the double low bong was when someone is grabbing and pulling you keeping your wrist down hence the bigger step this is to firmlte the force without having to be able to lift your wrist. But it is also the first time you are in the proper fighting stance. There are other but less used ideas

If in Wing Chun you're always attacking the attack, that means that you're hitting all of the time. Therefore the elbow from the Bong is a type of 'attack' that is going after someone hitting you while you're hitting over top (think Kwan Sau, but the Tan hand is showing a path to hitting). The Bong clears the line of attack just enough...

If someone is grabbing one of your wrists, that's great! You already know where one of their hands are...so you can just hit them. If they have both hands, Kwan Sau can break the structure but the immediate action is always to hit.

I also think of the stance as a 'following' stance or 'finishing' stance. Not going to start there, but there is a possibility that I'll finish there, chasing my opponent. If I have to take larger steps to chase and move, I can move the back leg like in the dummy form.

I can see what you're saying about the step and Dai Bong, however. I've been taught to 'give in' to a pulling force. We develop this through the beginning of our Lop Sau drill. Giving in is the starting stage and then, I feel, you have to really 'crash' into your opponent when they pull...driving that Bong elbow at their (sternum, ribs, face, pinning their arm, clearing the line, whatever presents itself, etc).

Best,
Kenton

[bennyvt]

vt doesnt always attack the attack. Sometimes we need to just block. Yes attack is better but this means that you are always better them ur opponent. Ie if pull is not hard you bong. If harder you bong and pivot, if really hard you must step. If you opponent has you wrist and keeps it down the note will allow you to block without lifting the wrist. The bong before this move when facing to the side is a striking bong or power bong but is stil not an attack. Just like kwon sao is a block until the tan sao becomes an attack and the bong should have been changed so you dont punch over your bong

[k gledhill]

i was taught the main use for the double low bong was when someone is grabbing and pulling you keeping your wrist down hence the bigger step this is to firmlte the force without having to be able to lift your wrist. But it is also the first time you are in the proper fighting stance. There are other but less used ideas

not what its for...

there is a primary idea based on the premise of attacking as the defense simultaneously.

Chum kil gives us a breakdown of certain actions we repeat due to the relatively complex nature of a non thinking response with more than a simple punch .

The focus is usually on the bong's rather than the idea the bongs support... to make way for the vu-sao to strike from an angle along the centerline .

The body learns to pivot on its axis line delivering a balanced turning, shifting, stepping, sliding ability
to respond to and move with in harmony , an attacking action.

When we do the low bongs , it isnt an application, never was ....

Once you have flanked a guyand you have a lead leg , either one [you cant dance to the side your opponent strikes ; ) ] you use a bong like any other.

...any other does the same thing , it displaces force-lines laterally to your centerline, so the vu-sao can deliver a response to continue your attacking actions...

So if I have managed to flank you and am now attacking forwards into your side, and you have managed to get an arm over mine or I have shifted to face another guy ...I cant change feet or have to to deliver a bong while coming AT YOU.

The bongs force goes left to right or vice versa, not up/down or forwards ...if I attack forwards I need to move your arm left or right as I step to strike ...if I push forwards with the bong I push you away from my force /strike ....If I want to jam you I use lan sao , not bong sao.

if you combine a bong to a line of force coming at you, you will displace it without thinking , as chi-sao 'should' have taught you...ie we x the line in chi-sao with bong wrists because we wont ever fight like a double extended hand drill of chi-sao , enabling us to be trapped....this is a redundant aspect of chi-sao training....

back to low bongs ... when we use a 'facing ' bong its only practiced in unison low to avoid high uneven neck cracking practice...the arms snap inwards forcefully and back to tan saos to train bong and back to elbows in hitting , as everything....
the step with the low bong is to imply we are attacking as we displace your arm....there is no further
action in the CK because we cant know whats going to result from the action....ergo , no kata.

it works in close proximity , when you vu-sao can extend to touch the target as well...in other words
I am only doing a bong sao in the speed of a 'blink of an eye' to be hitting you with the rear hand
....

If you attack forwards you have to have actions , incorporated in your attack that allows the force of the opponent to go 'somewhere' relative to your incoming attack lines....we use economy of motion to displace this incoming force along acute angles of the forearms as we strike , displace etc...

iow the bong displaces so we can regain the displacing strikes we have developed ....tan allows the inward held elbow positions [outside of the forearms to strike from a vu-sao while lowering bong.]..it is trained on the dummy as kwan-sao but we dont turn away from an attacker this is only done on the dummy as if we have rotated from the previously done actions on the dummy...rotating through kwan to tan and jum [ tan & sideplam] ...imagining if you didnt turn and step into the dummy and kept attacking along the wall the dummy is against, like chasing a guy along a cage ...you would keep going after them...if they changed directions you would simply face their movements and fire...without thinking...if they X-ed your arm you would do a bong and back to hitting as you shifted attacking them....not to stand in front and turn their energy like chi-sao...this would place you in a even face off, they have 2 hands hitting you , not good %'s


an example is to have a partner place an arm over your arm that would allow you to do a bong sao with it....stand facing roughly 45 * pick a side , as if you have put them ther or they over stepped to you etc...as you attacked from the side they tried to hit/grab you with ....one leg should lead, doesnt matter once you are on the side because you will go in after them now...

take your arm thats xed and move the arm on top away from you sideways , sharply to a sudden stop.....you should be trying to turn them so you have them with only one side able to respond ,
[ beware the spinning backfist ; ) ]...with the bong sao alone ....alone ...

like a pak sao slapping from side to side stopping sharply on your centerline making the contact point take the energy and shift....like a tennis racket hitting a ball but not following through when it reaches the centerline.....the rear hand is always in the position to fire directly forwards ...the chum kil contains many actions for this idea...jut , pak ,turning juts from bong sao, lateral shifting steps to close down on the defender....forwards displacing bongs to enable you to keep delivering an attack from any direction without allowing them a beat to attack back ...its important to maintain this assault to deliver the idea.....if you stop or break off because they placed an arm over yours , or simply stepped away from you ...your attack has failed...

the science of in -fighting is to deliver an unstoppable unrelenting assault ...without thinking.... not
application 1 for this or if they grab do # 3....

... if they can walk up and grab your wrists low , question their and your fighting ability ; ) take that !!! a double low wrist grab , get out of that sucker !! lamfao...Oh yeah i have double low bong saos just for that !! to silly. Its implying that the techniques where developed with just that ONE thing in mind ...

like the wrist grab removal using the sliding hand.[ tut sao ]..only a fool would believe this.

[k gledhill]

vt doesnt always attack the attack. Sometimes we need to just block. Yes attack is better but this means that you are always better them ur opponent. Ie if pull is not hard you bong. If harder you bong and pivot, if really hard you must step. If you opponent has you wrist and keeps it down the note will allow you to block without lifting the wrist. The bong before this move when facing to the side is a striking bong or power bong but is stil not an attack. Just like kwon sao is a block until the tan sao becomes an attack and the bong should have been changed so you dont punch over your bong

kwan isnt a block... in chi-sao world maybe . using kwan to fight one arm is an option , it covers the entry like a hi/lo gaun sao. but to use it facing and turning someone who doesnt turn with you and you just discovered why not to do it :D

[bennyvt]

Well that was a big explaination so ill have to have more time but on way to work, but firstly. saying things like, you "should" have learnt, tends to turn these things from a discusion to people having a go at each other.
Just quickly:
I never said that you would do two bong saos, I took it that it would be obvious to all that it would be used one at a time as I think most people realise that you dont hit two people next to you in the second section of SLT. I was not talking about any follow up movements with wu sao but simply saying what I learn is the most common use for the technique.
If stepping forward with the bong sao is at the right angle and is held in correct postion it should either move the attack to clear the centre or your body will move into the coresponding postion.
The bong should be pushed forward. It may move from the centre to inline with the shoulder but if you think about going around it tends to lead to the wrong movement. This may just be a case of differing terminology.
Kwan sao is a block, it is the movement of moving your hands into tan and bong and pivoting to negate too much force. Hence the kick in the dummy with kwan, as you dont want to just block. If the tan becomes an attack it is called something different, not good on the chinese but "bong Da"? I was always bad with the names but a bong with either a punch your plam coming over the top.
Completely breaking it down you can think of it as:
just to practice the step
Practice a low bong sao
Learn how to bong sao without raising the wrist
of any combination of hands to go with it.
I was just stating one main use for it, but using low bong and stepping forward into an attack when the wrist is held in a low position (with the back hand doing what ever you want), is a normal use for this technique, hence in chi sao when someone lap saos you hard you have to step forward.
The section before this with the bong to the side is a different stance with the feet being parrallel so it is not how you would be fighting someone if ront of you so the section with the double low bogs is the first that you are actually in a stance you should be in a fight after one step is taken.

[k gledhill]

turning to negate to much force...is chi-sao speak :D..im not having a go at you personally, just the points raised, I did this thinking too ,but discovered the errors inherent in it. We dont turn from the attacker like a chi-sao drill:D

the chum kil is simply moving to acquire a target while its moving ....we have the SLT chu ying =facing equally to reach with either hand against one arm. IOW we have to be able to make a triangle point/apex reach to make contact at all times during the engagement. This is coupled with tactical focus of isolating the man by fighting his 50% with our 100% .
We can achieve this goal by having the ability to fire and face from any angle relative to the line of force they deliver, without thinking , as they move to and from us. We stay with the attack and follow it to deliver our counter assault.

We dont adopt a lead leg until we have entered the flanks otherwise we are moving into their center with either arm capable of wailing on us as we stand with lead leg going in and out ...getting it low thai kicked . IOW we already commit a leg to a position , rather than adopt side stances that give us the ability to face and shift to sudden entry, while adopting an attacking posture....no pre lead leg, until we are obviously in need of following them .
We can use seung ma - toi ma steps to train to both deliver and receive attacks ...taking proper angles and stalking the prey , rather than rushing it like a bull to the hidden sword.

[bennyvt]

yes in slt you want to be able to hit with both hands but we are talking about ck and the low bong sao the kwan was an example and is not any either form. Which we use to get back to slt. Normally kwan will be used with a person moving in and changes the angle so they are turned and you should only pivot as much as possible so you dont face away from them. Chi sao or fighting you pivot. This doesnt mean you face away from ur opponent. Pivot if its too much, if its getts worse or structure fails step back. And i was always told that you can step into the centre or the outside. Most flank as their hands arent good enough to break the centre and keep it as flanking is easier but gives less targets to attack

[k gledhill]

...because their hands aren't good enough to break center :D okay ;) read 'dont know what the hands are doing in the first place' :D we dont fight guys who do chi-sao with arms occupying the center ...its a drill to develop the arms for free-fighting , not how we engage the fight .

less targets to attack ?? you think going into their center is a good % trade off ? remember they have a knife in each hand ...or do you suddenly 'think' to change your training fighting ways as you fight for real ?

your talking in common chi-sao thinking ...chi-sao drill positions and arms both extended is redundant to actual fighting ....your still thinking to face someone head on and turn their force using one arm as a low bong, and the other as a tan :D

kwan sao isnt in any form ..because ...? we do an arm rotation into and out of kwan in the dummy
ie...low gaun + high jum strike >arms rotate from deflection to striking angles...low gaun become a striking tan using the upper dummy arm as a focus point , while > high jum [strike] rotates to a bong sao, using the low arm to develop a slapping force to train line displacement , not a low bong , but bongs force> this position rotates to bong becoming a a striking tan angle and side palm [jum] while training to adopt the facing entry angles.....from another flank.:D

iow I'm training my arms to rotate into attack/deflect/attack/deflect chase along a parallel line while facing....then adopt flanking LEAD LEG ENTRY with either arm, tan angle or jum angle [ you dont know which one you will use] and aim to be able to reach with either position while aligning the elbow wrists to the line of your strikes attack angle....

for fighting, not chi-sao betterment ;) no kwan static pose ...get it. you can adopt any arm positions to kick , its not a set piece to kick and kwan :) some just do a bong kick, some bi-jong , some gum etc....

[bennyvt]

i was using a kwan sao as an example of a move that is just a block. This went from being about the low bongs in CK into people having two knives?, pivoting and the dummy.
Some givens in VT
*You only pivot as much as you need to, this may mean pivoting for power, reach, angle or to resist force (this is more of an ecentric movement).
*You can go to the inside or the outside, I normally go to the outside as you are more protected but being smaller once their hands are up it is more difficult to hit the persons head unless you go underneath. My teachers teacher always said it is better to go through the centre but is alot harder and you need to be better.
*There are a hundred ways of looking at the same move in the forms. Each move can be broken down to praticing a single technique (ie tan sao), you can think of it as a combined move of all patrs or with any variation you can think of (ie tan can be thought of as a strike or just a block) or can be thought of as a concept of how you move to different stimulis. I was saying one exampple of what the low bongs could be used for. I meant the bong is kept low and you step forward and do what ever you want with the other hand, I didnt mean two bongs. This is not to say that the other examples you have given are not valid.
*Some times you just have to block. This is never the prefered option as attack is always best but sometimes you are put in a position when you really need to block it and then attack. Especially when the person is better and bigger you need to keep in a good position to be able to strike him when the chance arrives, be this blocking, range or attacking him there are many options but blocking is always one of them.

[couch]

i was using a kwan sao as an example of a move that is just a block. This went from being about the low bongs in CK into people having two knives?, pivoting and the dummy.


Hey bennyvt,

Just to explain where this conversation went and why: Phillip Bayer from the WSL family views the system from the Baat Jam Do form down to SNT - not the other way around. Although I am very far from understanding the 'WSL Way,' it does keep my interest and I have a strong inclination to learn from some of its practitioners. After a few years of watching Kevin type on the boards and some e-mails back and forth with him as well as other WSL practitioners, etc...a little more than before is starting to make sense.

What Kev means when he's talking about the knives is that if someone were to try and stab you/slash at you...you can't meet that force staying squared to your opponent and going forward...you HAVE to get on the flank. Or as Kev uses the idea of a bucket of water: if I throw a bucket of water at you, you can Tan Sau the water down the centre but there's a good chance you'll still get wet (read: get hit).

Adding on to the idea of flank, there seems to be two key concepts from the WSL family. They are the Tan Sau and Fok/Jum concept. The idea (in my very small understanding) is that you want to 'block/control' and hit at the same time. But instead of thinking that simultaneous attack and defense is simply and Gan Sau with a Da making it a Gan Da...or a Tan Da...or a Pak Da...it's just that the Tan BECOMES the Da and the Fok/Jum becomes the Da. Add the flank in there and you have a pretty solid bare bones self-defense tool. The rest of the system is used to micro-adjust your angles, stay on the flank and keep hitting. Again, I mean no disrespect to the folks who have put a lot of time into the WSL Way. I'm still hashing out the details until I can personally train with some of you!

Here's an article on the subject of strikes and the the first picture is about the Tan and Fok concepts: http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=60

Anywho bennyvt...just wanted to add this stuff to the discussion so that things might make more sense coming from Kevin's posts. While I do agree that the low Bong can be used for different things, I'll agree to disagree about the primary use being a defense from a wrist grab. If someone's got my wrist, there's nothing better than hitting them in the face with my free hand.

:),
Kenton

[k gledhill]

i was using a kwan sao as an example of a move that is just a block. This went from being about the low bongs in CK into people having two knives?, pivoting and the dummy.
Some givens in VT
*You only pivot as much as you need to, this may mean pivoting for power, reach, angle or to resist force (this is more of an ecentric movement).
*You can go to the inside or the outside, I normally go to the outside as you are more protected but being smaller once their hands are up it is more difficult to hit the persons head unless you go underneath. My teachers teacher always said it is better to go through the centre but is alot harder and you need to be better.
*There are a hundred ways of looking at the same move in the forms. Each move can be broken down to praticing a single technique (ie tan sao), you can think of it as a combined move of all patrs or with any variation you can think of (ie tan can be thought of as a strike or just a block) or can be thought of as a concept of how you move to different stimulis. I was saying one exampple of what the low bongs could be used for. I meant the bong is kept low and you step forward and do what ever you want with the other hand, I didnt mean two bongs. This is not to say that the other examples you have given are not valid.
*Some times you just have to block. This is never the prefered option as attack is always best but sometimes you are put in a position when you really need to block it and then attack. Especially when the person is better and bigger you need to keep in a good position to be able to strike him when the chance arrives, be this blocking, range or attacking him there are many options but blocking is always one of them.


The reason I expanded was to explain the whole to understand the parts....
By your rational the Vt system is everything you want it to be and MORE :D
Thats when we get the confusion , we dont understand the root so we look for answers in the leaves...thinking this leaf is for this and this is for that and if they do this we use the low bong , applications and arm chasing ensues. We stand in front of each other doing so much chi-sao we lose sight of the fight.... to address your *

*You only pivot as much as you need to, this may mean pivoting for power, reach, angle or to resist force (this is more of an ecentric movement).

I only pivot to face you to attack you


*You can go to the inside or the outside, I normally go to the outside as you are more protected but being smaller once their hands are up it is more difficult to hit the persons head unless you go underneath. My teachers teacher always said it is better to go through the centre but is alot harder and you need to be better.

The system is designed to allow us to deliver flanking attacks , by design , we can fight from a perimeter in side stances , protractor , we can do anything ...% of constant fighting , read 'constant' armed or not will be in YOUR favor by adopting this thinking.
If you play chi-sao with a complying game player you can do whatever you want its only a drill. you can do it blindfold too standing on one leg while humming a tune :D

*There are a hundred ways of looking at the same move in the forms. Each move can be broken down to praticing a single technique (ie tan sao), you can think of it as a combined move of all patrs or with any variation you can think of (ie tan can be thought of as a strike or just a block) or can be thought of as a concept of how you move to different stimulis. I was saying one exampple of what the low bongs could be used for. I meant the bong is kept low and you step forward and do what ever you want with the other hand, I didnt mean two bongs. This is not to say that the other examples you have given are not valid.


You said it was the 'main' reason for low bongs , it isnt.
You have to have the whole of the systems thinking to make sense of the basic parts , ergo my digression into a knife scenario....everything is geared to allow us to maintain an attacking action, while maintaining the % factor, even if the arm is x'ed over while we turn and re-flank, shift to entry on us and flank, chase along a converging position , to a position we cans trike from while attacking , side shifting , facing in a flanking position....iow I have entered your flank , like I started on the dummy side...here I am and your moving backwards while I have managed to gain entry to your weak-side....you attempt to x over my arm, I have a lead leg and I am attacking with constant forward steps/pressure to maintain my striking zone . I use bong to knock your arm out of the way while still attacking . The height of my bong is only relative to your arm and mine at that point in time , the idea of bong is still the same , not an application of a grabbed wrist....or I can only do low bongs if I'm going forwards...sounds silly doesnt it...so if I have to do a higher bong like we do in chi-sao, it has to have the same ballistic removal force 'couple' with forward force I am also delivering ...2 forces one action 3 things at once if you include the step which delivers the leg force = to the amount of energy you push into the ground...but I digress even further :D...
so if Im going forwards, hitting , and want to keep hitting with force , I make by bong move your potential force sideways, relative to my tactical flanking goal, dissipating your line of force by my ear/shoulder... as I deliver a simultaneous linear strike along the centerline, transferring the bongs clearing action to the vu that strikes using a 'tan' trained forearm angle, not to block but to strike .recovering the bong back to vu , using the tut sao actions to maintain an attacking rear free hand ...if you grab my hand I have bil gee , developed for just this grabbing idea....not chum kil. By design BG allows me to regain the relentless attack of the SLT/CK bubble without stopping the attack. Lop sao , bowing down elbows etc...all help us to regain the momentum of the attack without resorting to....."application z for move 45, facing , with one lg on ground."
You can have a 100 ways if you dont know the way to the destination. You can take the scenic route :D many do because they have no map. They ask directions from guys who are also lost but have videos for sale making them beyond reproach :rolleyes: and a book series further compounding their ideas, doesnt mean THEY dont work , just not working for a single common idea of vt attack as defense, attack as defense , attack as defense.



*Some times you just have to block. This is never the prefered option as attack is always best but sometimes you are put in a position when you really need to block it and then attack. Especially when the person is better and bigger you need to keep in a good position to be able to strike him when the chance arrives, be this blocking, range or attacking him there are many options but blocking is always one of them.

How do you know they are better ? If you apply the thinking of the system, force has no place to rest on you , except when it grabs you , ergo bil gee.
The ideas of chi-sao arent to place force at the wrists and seek a place to put that force ...we dont seek out the arms to become functional in chi-sao , we simply offer random lines of force to each other with entry combined to develop instinctive angling away from facing force with force, we dot keep 2 arms extended either always man/vu, unless bil gee...we use 2 in fast rotation against one with overwhelming force to attack a weaker side with the combat idea to end the fight asap , not have 10 rounds or 5 rounds to play for time , wear the guy out , feel him out , back off and try again ...you CAN but its not what we are developing ...other systems have a combat variety of thinking that changes its delivery , thai boxing for one can become elbows , knees and straight shots with constant forward entry ...think about the idea of attacking as the defense...how would you develop to be able to sustain that idea ...
what techniques would you use to do it, straight lines, unthinking delivery to overwhelm the thought process of the recipient....% ideas rather than rigid rules . training drills specific to the delivery of the primary goal...willing partners developing each other for this goal. Drills that include methods to recover the ability to maintain the primary idea....a dummy to focus the arm angles on repeatedly with solid arms to develop ballistic displacement and a facing positions. symmetry of techniques so you could flow like water either side of the counter flow , seamlessly without thinking .
A relentless attack ....

I used to think like you, a lot of you , I would question what this was for and that. You wont find the answers in chi-sao, its simply a tool to build a greater idea.
I would think that we attacked center too because we do so much chi-sao like that, we get lost in the thought process. Out of this thinking Kwan sao is born, with turning force etc... the idea makes you think to stand there in the first place , like yu said they might be better , so why stand there and give them the chance to show you or take you down ...you fight like you train, many policemen got shot because they practiced on lanes , standing facing against a paper target firing back only no bullets ...over and over ... then someone fires for real and you stand and fire back like the range. :confused:

[bennyvt]

ok maybe not the most common should i have said the easiest to see the application or a common use for this move, you keep saying im talking about chi sao when i am not. Going into the centre means inside the opponents gaurd or punch not inside a tan sao or any other chi sao position. My point was that you can do both, you cant say it can be many things but you must flank the person, as it doesnt make sense. I dont know he they are better then me but in our school we always take that they are better them you. Therefore you dont rely on speed, Power etc.. And as far as listening to people that dont know what they are saying. We at the barry lee ving tsun dont have videos or books to sell but if you ask phillip bayer who barry is he will tell you he knows what he is talking about. . I was answering a question for someone else, you can give some big example with all the water and tree stuff but people want an example which is what i have given. And yes the tan can be a block or strike but in saying that it is still a block. Also if i can reach i would punch when grabbed, but sometimes i cant reach or they are pulling me and i cant resist so you have to step forward with the bong as the bong not only changes the angle and allows your facing but it may block something coming in. You said that it is not what it is for, i say that its is one of many ways to use it not that it is the only or best example

[couch]

Also if i can reach i would punch when grabbed, but sometimes i cant reach or they are pulling me and i cant resist so you have to step forward with the bong as the bong not only changes the angle and allows your facing but it may block something coming in. You said that it is not what it is for, i say that its is one of many ways to use it not that it is the only or best example

If they can reach out and grab and pull you...you can hit them. Self-defense doesn't happen at Tae Kwon Do range...they are in your three feet of personal space already. So, as they teach in all martial arts: if he can kick me, I can kick him. If he can punch me, I can punch him. If he can grab me, I can grab him. I'm not talking about fighting some 7' tall guy and I'm 4'. It doesn't matter...if they can reach, I can reach. So when someone goes for the arm grab and pull, I can hit them: they're in my hitting range.

In my Moy Yat lineage, I was taught that a strong Lap Sau could be countered by a good Bong Sau elbow crashing into them using their own force. But that's pulling force. If they want to pull my wrist down...all the better! Gravity will help keep their hands down there while my other hands hits their face. :)

[k gledhill]

Ill leave it there..if you want to think what to do with a move in 100 ways thats your business...just fuel for thought.

[bennyvt]

ok. Well im 165 cms and i have had a 6'3 dude grab me. So no i couldn't hit them. There are several ways of getting out of it, this was one example. Yes when someone asks what a move is for i have an example. All the lines me force and no technique is a fine way me thinking but makes it hard to teach someone. At no point did i say to put force in the wrists in chi sao. You push your elbows forward towards your partner and note when they leave an opening. But when we teach we say this is a trap, this is how you block it not just note his line me force. We explain using example, concepts and theories.but i find it interesting that you use the knives to explain. We normally use slt as a reference. We normally say slt is the best as you can attack and defend wit both hands, ck is when you are attacked from side or move to far, bj when you duck up. Slt is very general as mower have many uses but as forms in one the variations me the notes become more specific.. Im not saying its bad i have never heard me doing it this way. And dont get me wrong, you have some good ideas about the moves that i agree with i just dont get that technical when answering as it gets too hard without being able to show them what you mean

[k gledhill]

When someone asks what a move is for ....there should be the main reason your training
first...then the "and you can do this and that , and some of this "..BUT its really for this idea .

chi sao has a distinct purpose in redundant stages ...many stay locked into the chi-sao methods, when they are to be discarded , just for mutual workouts to better the techniques.

:D

[bennyvt]

Some of my previous posts are hard to understand as I was using my phone and it has that premtive text.
Yes I was taught that the move is used to disolve the force of a grab and pull. This was not anything about chi sao I just think that when someone is asking on the net about what a move is for in CK they probably havent learnt it or have just learnt it. The information you gave while being interesting is way too much for any person learning it to understand. I tend to change my explaination as to how they ask the questions. I just find that over the net you have to read everything five times to understand it

[k gledhill]

I dont expect you to grasp everything I write , because its 'alien' to usual mainstream vt thinking....most will think of the system as 'moves' with chi-sao thrown in ..for what, to make you want to stick to someone ? jam them with a bong ? use a lop-sao to grab the wrist..sounds like something an untrained guy would do, so why train to do it yourself for everything ? answer you dont , you use jut sao....bong is to clear the way of a blocked strike, to strike again, if they grab use Bil Gee elbow goes over their forearm and drops to break the grip while recovering your arm to be free to hit again, not get into an arm wrestling match...we can use our body momentum to crash into guys who grab us , but adopting a low bong as we do it is redundant thinking...like kwan sao, you CAN use it , but your tans pointing up in the air off-line to the guys head /center chasing an arm that you wouldn't even care about , if you'd used the tactical thinking from the knives to start with in the first place. And then using the wrong thinking to adopt a chi-sao face off BEFORE you fight a guy :D does a matador adopt a SLT stance and hold the cape before him to block the horns while standing in front of the bull turning to towards one horn ? NO? why not ? because they don't know what side they will have to take as it charges ...they have a tactic that works over and over, in close proximity to a lunge of force....a subtle shift , economical action, not in and out lead leg head on to the horns...
they might adopt a angled sword to mimic a bong sao and deflect a horn as the other hand delivers the fatal cutting action...then they step away and watch it bleed out....all that went on before was a show for the audience....ole' , ole' ..oooh almost got him ...ole'
If they wanted it to be over quickly it would only last as long as the first and last charge of the bull. If they play around for the crowds of onlookers , they have rounds :D

VT is designed from top down to follow a common objective, the forms serve to allow a timeout and focus on specific parts of this objective, repeating them over and over , not as 'moves' but to maintain the objective without losing the rush of the attack to thought and allow the guy to counter your flow ...

[k gledhill]

you can see some knife on this clip of Philipp Bayer...:D guys a machine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg&NR=1

[Faruq]

Steve Lee Swift.

[RGVWingChun]

Grandmaster Ip Ching

[shawchemical]

VT is designed from top down to follow a common objective, the forms serve to allow a timeout and focus on specific parts of this objective, repeating them over and over , not as 'moves' but to maintain the objective without losing the rush of the attack to thought and allow the guy to counter your flow ...

Kev.

It's clearly designed from the bottom up. There can be no other way to view the system accurately. Basic positioning and concepts taught in SLT, expansions given more advanced context in Chum Kiu, and the things which fall outside of the box in biu jee.

[k gledhill]

Kev.

It's clearly designed from the bottom up. There can be no other way to view the system accurately. Basic positioning and concepts taught in SLT, expansions given more advanced context in Chum Kiu, and the things which fall outside of the box in biu jee.

Dont forget the system also has 2 weapons , each a major contributor to the development of the 'vt fighter'. Its easier to see if you do the weapons and have them explained by someone who has learned them and used them to fight , not just do forms. Once you see how integrated their ideas are with the physical vt actions, especially the pole, you can begin to expand your views.

I can imagine the bare handed pole fighter would try to make their arms acts as poles, always pointing at the opponent with centerline alignment, while displacing off the line with ballistic force for strike entry, coupled with bodyweight momentum in the strikes. All 3 together....

maybe one day you will meet P Bayer, ask him to explain the system to you, you might just change your opinion like i did and all those who meet him :D

the proof isnt in doing chi-sao with others its fighting with the system...we are all relatively equal doing chi-sao, arms etc....try the fighting development and its going to be pretty clear whats going on...I learned the hard way....but i learned, better late than never.

There is more to VT than SLT, CK, BG....

[shawchemical]

Dont forget the system also has 2 weapons , each a major contributor to the development of the 'vt fighter'. Its easier to see if you do the weapons and have them explained by someone who has learned them and used them to fight , not just do forms. Once you see how integrated their ideas are with the physical vt actions, especially the pole, you can begin to expand your views.

I can imagine the bare handed pole fighter would try to make their arms acts as poles, always pointing at the opponent with centerline alignment, while displacing off the line with ballistic force for strike entry, coupled with bodyweight momentum in the strikes. All 3 together....

maybe one day you will meet P Bayer, ask him to explain the system to you, you might just change your opinion like i did and all those who meet him :D

the proof isnt in doing chi-sao with others its fighting with the system...we are all relatively equal doing chi-sao, arms etc....try the fighting development and its going to be pretty clear whats going on...I learned the hard way....but i learned, better late than never.

There is more to VT than SLT, CK, BG....

nope. learning the weapons before your hands are perfect does not increase your ability, but hinders your learning and reflexive conditioning. The pole too early destroys your footwork, and the knives too early destroys your hands and feet.

They are extensions of the empty hand techniques and concepts, and thus you are correct, there is similarity between them. However, the fundamental (ie no weapons) techniques can be hurt by adding unnecessary confusion into the attempt to program the best reflexive response to a situation.

SLT is the collection of the most useful parts of VTK. AS the context becomes more fluid, we learn how to adjust those fundamentals to return to their simplicity. The most useful concepts are not hidden later in the system, but taught from the very beginning.

[k gledhill]

Wrong again...but your entitled to your misinformed opinions.

The pole enhances all parts, enhances endurance, footwork, structure, core strength, focus, re-enforces the concepts of unity in action, momentum.
The knives 'enhance' footwork making us very fast in movement to enter and retreat and is left last to avoid footwork confusion ( different footwork for each, bare hands & knives ).
The knife footwork is adopted to give fighters the high degree of mobility required to fight with razor edge weapons swinging wildly. They strengthen the arms, shoulders, timing of facing and knife manipulation as you work the early basic moves, to 'ingrain' them early on in your training. They too enhance the 'fighter'

The pole is used day one to convey the methods the arms adopt to fight along the centerline. You should know this. Why we dont cross or chase across the centerlines is proven with pole fighting too....;) We dont teach the pole physically until the student has reached CK / Dummy, but you dont have to fear that the 'hands' will be ruined, in fact its the opposite.


the strategic, tactical directives to 'how to fight' are in the weapons. WE LEARN THIS DAY ONE, the information is given early as possible so you know what your developing into. The physical use of the weapons comes as you progress, but not left for the 10 year itch :D

within 4 years you should have done the whole pole form, drills with poles, sparring etc...knife work too. Knife versus pole ....And the hands are still seeking perfection ;) go figure.

So you havent done weapons ? if yes , how many years would you suggest one waits to use the pole ? 5 years, 10...? and the knives, when should I explain the thinking of the knives, when you have attained perfection of the hands ? Whats the use of perfect hands without a tactical idea nurtured simultaneously along with them...sparring. Sparring isnt lead leg back and forth chain punching like idiots.

i have news for you , its a holistic system, each enhances the other, you cant be perfect in the hands without the others....crazy idea huh ?

This is YM/WSL/PB ...thinking.

I'm sure there are teachers who 'milk' thier students for every $ making them wait, maybe they dont know the knives, pole ...? so they create reasons for you to wait years, saying it will ruin your hands [ cr ap ], maybe never even pick up a pole, never mind hear the tactical ideas of VT knife fighting.

[bennyvt]

"Wrong again...but your entitled to your misinformed opinions."
Didn't you say that you thought you knew before then changed when you went to phillip. Isn't it possible that it could happen again? since you haven't meet our teacher or Barry maybe you are the one who is misinformed.

"to 'ingrain' them early on in your training. They too enhance the 'fighter'"
No they confuse the fighter that is trying to learn how to use his hands, not knives or weapons he has to change his moves slightly to make up for weight, range etc therefore learning to do it wrong when he doesn't have his hands.


"the strategic, tactical directives to 'how to fight' are in the weapons."
If you think the only thoeries to fighting are in the weapons then maybe you are missing something. Fighting and how to fight is taught from SLT onwards.

"Whats the use of perfect hands without a tactical idea nurtured simultaneously along with them...sparring. Sparring isnt lead leg back and forth chain punching like idiots."
As I said the tactical ideas are from the start and the knives ideas are simliar but different due to range, weight etc. Sparring has nothing to do with the weapons.


"This is YM/WSL/PB ...thinking."
I think nearly every other WSL guy would have a different idea. Yes it is the KG/PB thinking as you explain it.

"Its easier to see if you do the weapons and have them explained by someone who has learned them and used them to fight , not just do forms."
So phillip has been in lots of fights using the knives and pole. WOW lucky he is not in jail. The things you say the weapons enhance are true but once you have attained a certain standard.

[shawchemical]

Kev.

There is nothing that should be unknown when you progress to the knives and pole. The fundamentals should have long been second nature, and the ideas you use not new ones.

Of course there will be alterations you make, adjustments to make due to the differing properties of both weapons in relation to your own body.

All that you have posted simply clarifies that you don't understand how to condition reflexive responses.

If you overwhelm a person with choices before they are capable of choosing correctly, they will always choose the wrong tool. They will do it in good faith, but regardless they still choose incorrectly wrong.

[k gledhill]

"Wrong again...but your entitled to your misinformed opinions."
Didn't you say that you thought you knew before then changed when you went to phillip. Isn't it possible that it could happen again? since you haven't meet our teacher or Barry maybe you are the one who is misinformed.

"to 'ingrain' them early on in your training. They too enhance the 'fighter'"
No they confuse the fighter that is trying to learn how to use his hands, not knives or weapons he has to change his moves slightly to make up for weight, range etc therefore learning to do it wrong when he doesn't have his hands.


"the strategic, tactical directives to 'how to fight' are in the weapons."
If you think the only thoeries to fighting are in the weapons then maybe you are missing something. Fighting and how to fight is taught from SLT onwards.

"Whats the use of perfect hands without a tactical idea nurtured simultaneously along with them...sparring. Sparring isnt lead leg back and forth chain punching like idiots."
As I said the tactical ideas are from the start and the knives ideas are simliar but different due to range, weight etc. Sparring has nothing to do with the weapons.


"This is YM/WSL/PB ...thinking."
I think nearly every other WSL guy would have a different idea. Yes it is the KG/PB thinking as you explain it.

"Its easier to see if you do the weapons and have them explained by someone who has learned them and used them to fight , not just do forms."
So phillip has been in lots of fights using the knives and pole. WOW lucky he is not in jail. The things you say the weapons enhance are true but once you have attained a certain standard.

pointless arguing , you have your opinion...we create a package deal, all in ...

tell me how long before your teacher lets you do pole work ? or Knives ? thanks

btw im always open to other ideas, sparring will show if they make sense or not.

[k gledhill]

Kev.

There is nothing that should be unknown when you progress to the knives and pole. The fundamentals should have long been second nature, and the ideas you use not new ones.

Of course there will be alterations you make, adjustments to make due to the differing properties of both weapons in relation to your own body.

All that you have posted simply clarifies that you don't understand how to condition reflexive responses.

If you overwhelm a person with choices before they are capable of choosing correctly, they will always choose the wrong tool. They will do it in good faith, but regardless they still choose incorrectly wrong.

It shows that you are missing key elements in your development ;) its proven by sparring. Incorporating certain elements too late will effect your development as a total package ...

[k gledhill]

Individual Improvement Strategy

Author: Philipp Bayer

"Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear."

"Following that, it becomes about deciding how you can achieve these goals most efficiently. This is also a part of the system."

"Unfortunately, Ving Tsun is too perfect, such that in one’s life-span, no more than approx. 70% of it can be mastered * even with great efforts! The Human Factor, as always."

- Philipp Bayer -

Ving Tsun can best be looked at in it’s entirety for an individual improvement strategy, but also as a correction system for mistakes. More modern than the quality management systems of today, the individual behavior during a fight is corrected. This is why optimally, all elements are developed simultaneously from the start and all fit together. As I said before, it is a fatal mistake to learn certain parts too late. Then the other elements would have to be developed without these important elements. In this manner, the result will be totally different and very difficult to correct, according to the motto: What Johnny doesn’t learn now, John will never learn again.

The only obstacle always is the soul of Ving Tsun: not learning Chi Sau the right way, directly from master to the student... giving adequate strength with an enormous speed which contrastly generates a particular handling from the student... Ving Tsun will remain a mystery... as it is regularly read about, seen and experienced in public.

Ving Tsun cannot be classified in a such manner that you could say: now learn this or that, or once you have learned this, we can start with sparring. The forms serve to correct the errors, which constantly appear in times of stress: to bring the elbows in the correct position, train the stance, and to generate a certain behavior that is necessary to have in a fighting.

Therefore, it is very important to learn everything as a total package. It is pointless to learn a certain component, for example the ' dummy training’ after 15 years, because, by then, the personal development at this stage has probably reached it’s end. A certain behavior has then already been established. Also, when starting from scratch it is very difficult to incorporate a new element. It is always asking for trouble to change movements which are already frequently trained, even if it only concerns relatively small changes. The total package conversely leads to the development of a feel for fighting, timing, feeling for distance, punching power, spontaneity, and perseverance * fighting skills are attained.

Afterwards the system is tested by means of sparring and the weak points become clearly visible. Common errors are, for example: the elbows point outward, Wu Sau placement is still not good, the position of the legs is worthless, the position of the hips is incorrect and because of this, mobility, balance and power are diminished. All this is corrected by the forms and Chi Sao. As soon as most errors disappeared, the pressure is intensified, as a result of which new errors become visible and can again be eliminated.

The errors are very individual - there are simply people, who can handle less stress, and in despair turn themselves away and as a result have difficulty protecting themselves. Others have the inclination after a strong counter attack to allow their opponent some space to recover and display no perseverance. Others make the situation more complicated than necessary or start an attack from the wrong distance and unnecessarily waste valuable energy.

It is therefore clear that Ving Tsun is very individual, in each area, in methods, training or fighting. Everyone is bound by his own potential, which requires its own treatment. Gradations play no role, everyone knows each others errors and still encouraged to use these to their own advantage.

Everyone who makes errors should want their trainings partner to focus on these errors * this way each one assures the quality of the other. Wong Shun Leung had superior methods to help someone progress... perhaps another time more about this.


PB

me, philipp learned directly from WSL , not a student of wsl or did a few years then left....he started in '83 . As PB told me WSL had many VISITORS but FEW STUDENTS. You figure it out by meeting PB...not typing on a keyboard. Personally I have met quite a few lineages first hand....have you?

[chusauli]

LOL! WSL vs WSL!

PB is correct - understanding the genius of WCK should just take an afternoon -but practicing and perfecting will take a lifetime.

70%, I don't know the context in what he speaks of. If you apply it right, you've hit 100%. So perhaps PB is being humble.

"Total package" is right - you have WSL/PB, Beeny has WSL/Barry Lee, David Petersen has WSL/DP, others have other blends - all packaged.

Hawkins once said to me, "Many create wing chun patterns to sell,
but wing chun has no pattern.
Many sell their patterns as wing chun,
but wing chun is beyond these patterns.
Real wing chun is formless.
We create patterns based upon our opponent's pattern.
We study forms to reach a formless state.
When one has reached a high level in wing chun,
one discovers the variations in timing
and changes in position that are possible in application.
In Chinese, we call this bien faat—variations or changes.
How many spend the time and research to develop
their wing chun to this point?"

That is in the Kuen Po I pass down to my students.

[k gledhill]

package implies forms , dummy, pole, knives, sparring in a holisic approach. Gaining the benefits of the total approach , rather than modular $ stages with grades, membership $, grading $ or simply bad coaching , without a fighting goal. More a confused mishmash of generalisms to cover the lack of a specific idea to aim for....ive met many with this 'I can create all things from the forms' approach...but handed them their ars.e sparring. go figure. And I'm not that good at VT sparring ! hah

[bennyvt]

So WSL should have sucked then as he learn it all seperately. He didn't learn the dummy or especially the weapons for years. So if your thinking is correct that would mean he wouldn't be able to do it themself.
Yes you have your opinion I have mine. The difference is you think the way oyu think is the only way. While what you say is correct it is only a small part of the puzzle. Your extremist veiws seem to cut everything else off.

We don't have gradings, haven't "paid" my teacher in years.
and the learning off WSL. Barry was their full time living in the school in the seventies and continued to learn off him up to his death, so yeh totally agree. Lots of people go and learn bits off him not many spent years living at the school, doing challenge matches etc. Does make a difference.

So you didn't metion all the knife and pole fights your teacher has had as to why it is better to learn off someone who has used the weapons.:D

[shawchemical]

Individual Improvement Strategy

Author: Philipp Bayer

"Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear."

"Following that, it becomes about deciding how you can achieve these goals most efficiently. This is also a part of the system."

"Unfortunately, Ving Tsun is too perfect, such that in one’s life-span, no more than approx. 70% of it can be mastered * even with great efforts! The Human Factor, as always."

- Philipp Bayer -

Ving Tsun can best be looked at in it’s entirety for an individual improvement strategy, but also as a correction system for mistakes. More modern than the quality management systems of today, the individual behavior during a fight is corrected. This is why optimally, all elements are developed simultaneously from the start and all fit together. As I said before, it is a fatal mistake to learn certain parts too late. Then the other elements would have to be developed without these important elements. In this manner, the result will be totally different and very difficult to correct, according to the motto: What Johnny doesn’t learn now, John will never learn again.

The only obstacle always is the soul of Ving Tsun: not learning Chi Sau the right way, directly from master to the student... giving adequate strength with an enormous speed which contrastly generates a particular handling from the student... Ving Tsun will remain a mystery... as it is regularly read about, seen and experienced in public.

Ving Tsun cannot be classified in a such manner that you could say: now learn this or that, or once you have learned this, we can start with sparring. The forms serve to correct the errors, which constantly appear in times of stress: to bring the elbows in the correct position, train the stance, and to generate a certain behavior that is necessary to have in a fighting.

Therefore, it is very important to learn everything as a total package. It is pointless to learn a certain component, for example the ' dummy training’ after 15 years, because, by then, the personal development at this stage has probably reached it’s end. A certain behavior has then already been established. Also, when starting from scratch it is very difficult to incorporate a new element. It is always asking for trouble to change movements which are already frequently trained, even if it only concerns relatively small changes. The total package conversely leads to the development of a feel for fighting, timing, feeling for distance, punching power, spontaneity, and perseverance * fighting skills are attained.

Afterwards the system is tested by means of sparring and the weak points become clearly visible. Common errors are, for example: the elbows point outward, Wu Sau placement is still not good, the position of the legs is worthless, the position of the hips is incorrect and because of this, mobility, balance and power are diminished. All this is corrected by the forms and Chi Sao. As soon as most errors disappeared, the pressure is intensified, as a result of which new errors become visible and can again be eliminated.

The errors are very individual - there are simply people, who can handle less stress, and in despair turn themselves away and as a result have difficulty protecting themselves. Others have the inclination after a strong counter attack to allow their opponent some space to recover and display no perseverance. Others make the situation more complicated than necessary or start an attack from the wrong distance and unnecessarily waste valuable energy.

It is therefore clear that Ving Tsun is very individual, in each area, in methods, training or fighting. Everyone is bound by his own potential, which requires its own treatment. Gradations play no role, everyone knows each others errors and still encouraged to use these to their own advantage.

Everyone who makes errors should want their trainings partner to focus on these errors * this way each one assures the quality of the other. Wong Shun Leung had superior methods to help someone progress... perhaps another time more about this.


PB

me, philipp learned directly from WSL , not a student of wsl or did a few years then left....he started in '83 . As PB told me WSL had many VISITORS but FEW STUDENTS. You figure it out by meeting PB...not typing on a keyboard. Personally I have met quite a few lineages first hand....have you?

Here you go with the nut riding hero worship again kev.

So much of what you write is true, and you spoil it by adding nonsense. I will stick with Barry's, and Bill's teaching methods.

The whole point of training is to establish reflexive behaviours using the simplest tools. Not to overwhelm people and inhibit the imprinting of the correct reflex.

[k gledhill]

you can only find out by fighting, we agree, the reflexes need to be nurtured to use the simplest tools , no argument there, but the by-products of concurrent training of weapons will enhance the fighter. Like dummy training is developing the unity of momentum of CK with hips and arm angles of SLT, as they move around, so the weapons give us the strategy to engage an opponent from a face off, the knife and bare hands share the same strategy, only the techniques and proximity change.

How many years would you give before letting a student lift the pole for the first time ?
When would you start basic pole footwork drills ?

Question, how long before barry and bill showed you the dummy , pole , knives ? curious.

[k gledhill]

LOL! WSL vs WSL!

PB is correct - understanding the genius of WCK should just take an afternoon -but practicing and perfecting will take a lifetime.

70%, I don't know the context in what he speaks of. If you apply it right, you've hit 100%. So perhaps PB is being humble.

"Total package" is right - you have WSL/PB, Beeny has WSL/Barry Lee, David Petersen has WSL/DP, others have other blends - all packaged.

Hawkins once said to me, "Many create wing chun patterns to sell,
but wing chun has no pattern.
Many sell their patterns as wing chun,
but wing chun is beyond these patterns.
Real wing chun is formless.
We create patterns based upon our opponent's pattern.
We study forms to reach a formless state.
When one has reached a high level in wing chun,
one discovers the variations in timing
and changes in position that are possible in application.
In Chinese, we call this bien faat—variations or changes.
How many spend the time and research to develop
their wing chun to this point?"

That is in the Kuen Po I pass down to my students.


I met Hawkins Sifu during a seminar in L.A. when I was an assistant to GM V. Kan ...I also met you. I did chi-sao with you and the other guys. I remember everyone asking me how long before you learned the dummy ? like it was a secret.
I agree many sell the system in belts/grades. stages...extra advanced dummy training, advanced instructor training...$$$ few actually have anything worthwhile to study.

[k gledhill]

to Benny and shawchemical, remeber that Im not singling you out in any way, Im just making it clear that there are alternative ideas worth investigating....its up to you to follow your way. I make no $ for writing here :D...WSL admitted to doing bad VT to PB as he progressed he evolved too....humble guy.

[shawchemical]

you can only find out by fighting, we agree, the reflexes need to be nurtured to use the simplest tools , no argument there, but the by-products of concurrent training of weapons will enhance the fighter. Like dummy training is developing the unity of momentum of CK with hips and arm angles of SLT, as they move around, so the weapons give us the strategy to engage an opponent from a face off, the knife and bare hands share the same strategy, only the techniques and proximity change.

How many years would you give before letting a student lift the pole for the first time ?
When would you start basic pole footwork drills ?

Question, how long before barry and bill showed you the dummy , pole , knives ? curious.

It is not about the amount of years which you train for, but how hard you train and the level of competency you reach.

[k gledhill]

It is not about the amount of years which you train for, but how hard you train and the level of competency you reach.


you didnt answer the question....?

[shawchemical]

you didnt answer the question....?

YOu didn't ask the right question.

[k gledhill]

otay...:rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

I thought this thread was about who is the best you have seen?? Seems to have turned into yet another pi$$ing match :rolleyes:

FWIW As a loyalist, I'll have to say my own Sifu Joseph Man who was taught by Lee Shing. If you're on Facebook, here he is showing some 'water' element (being the Avatar that he is!!)
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691719531#!/video/video.php?v=1449828439884
Also one of his students is uploading clips on Youtube too...
http://www.youtube.com/user/enjun7138#p/a/u/0/34pZgA-aq8I

I also heard crazy stories about Joseph Chengs speed and power!

Some bros were quite formidable in my day too, like Barry Lewis and Tony Marsh, both also having learnt from Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang.

From outside the family, I like Anton Thomas' style, Gary McKenzie and James Sinclair have all given their time to promote Wing Chun over the years in the UK! Also Master Wong is an eccentric character and produces some good looking DVDs too...

[Faruq]

Yeah, I heard Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang were really good though secretive about showing their best stuff, and I have to say I got a Wai Po Wing Chun tape maybe 10 years back that was really disappointing. I guess he didn't want to show any of his technique on tape, or didn't want his rivals to see his moves.

[shaolin_allan]

The best wing chun practicioner i've seen in person is the master of my organization named Jeff Webb his hands are so fast u cant even see them, and you would never guess it from seeing him in person. I am also fond of Duncan Leung's stuff and Eddie Chong

[KJW]

There's a guy in London called Simon Lau, I think he's probably the best I've ever seen.

[nasmedicine]

my instructors (nobody famous) augustine fong, eddie chong, and david grados top my list.

my current sifu, duncan leung, phillip brayer, wong nim yi (in no particular order)

[nasmedicine]

LOL! WSL vs WSL!

PB is correct - understanding the genius of WCK should just take an afternoon -but practicing and perfecting will take a lifetime.

70%, I don't know the context in what he speaks of. If you apply it right, you've hit 100%. So perhaps PB is being humble.

"Total package" is right - you have WSL/PB, Beeny has WSL/Barry Lee, David Petersen has WSL/DP, others have other blends - all packaged.

Hawkins once said to me, "Many create wing chun patterns to sell,
but wing chun has no pattern.
Many sell their patterns as wing chun,
but wing chun is beyond these patterns.
Real wing chun is formless.
We create patterns based upon our opponent's pattern.
We study forms to reach a formless state.
When one has reached a high level in wing chun,
one discovers the variations in timing
and changes in position that are possible in application.
In Chinese, we call this bien faat—variations or changes.
How many spend the time and research to develop
their wing chun to this point?"

That is in the Kuen Po I pass down to my students.

very nice post and very true...

[Vajramusti]

I don't follow the point of this thread. My bad.

[deejaye72]

the three best practioners i have ever seen were of course my father ( who is my sifu) sifu miquel hernandez of moy yat ving tsun and of course my fathers sifu my sigung jason lau, who used his wing chun on the streets of flatbush avenue in new york in the 70's and early 80's

you should hears sigung's stories sheesh, i love hearing him tell them,he's a trip!

[nasmedicine]

the three best practioners i have ever seen were of course my father ( who is my sifu) sifu miquel hernandez of moy yat ving tsun and of course my fathers sifu my sigung jason lau, who used his wing chun on the streets of flatbush avenue in new york in the 70's and early 80's

you should hears sigung's stories sheesh, i love hearing him tell them,he's a trip!

My sifu is freinds with Jason Lau from when he first started teaching in Brooklyn, back in the day. I have heard some great stories about Sifu Lau from my sifu as well.

[deejaye72]

My sifu is freinds with Jason Lau from when he first started teaching in Brooklyn, back in the day. I have heard some great stories about Sifu Lau from my sifu as well.

pm me dude i would love to talk to you

[Faruq]

the three best practioners i have ever seen were of course my father ( who is my sifu) sifu miquel hernandez of moy yat ving tsun and of course my fathers sifu my sigung jason lau, who used his wing chun on the streets of flatbush avenue in new york in the 70's and early 80's

you should hears sigung's stories sheesh, i love hearing him tell them,he's a trip!

I'd love to hear his stories too!

[iwingchun]

Sifu Brebos William's Cheung student.:)

[RWilson]

Lots of folks will list their sifu and/or their sigung. Plus, there are experience differences in
who really has seen what when and how.

joy chaudhuri

You are just upset because no one said your name.

This thread should have been titled, "Whose chi sao do you like better since that is all wc people do"?

[Vajramusti]

you are just upset because no one said your name.

This thread should have been titled, "whose chi sao do you like better since that is all wc people do"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
troll!

[deejaye72]

You are just upset because no one said your name.

This thread should have been titled, "Whose chi sao do you like better since that is all wc people do"?

i have been elbowed in the face so hard i almost couldnt drive home, kneed in the balls, multiple busted lips, busted nose that started bleeding, various joint locks put on, this is with and without gloves, went from chi sao to grappling many, many times, all with resistance, all within wing chun class. you went to the wrong wing chun school buddy!!!

[Christos WC]

Hello people,

Does anyone know Delta Wing Chun and the lineage of Sifu Lakis Philippou?
Please watch the videos in youtube and comment to the thread here

Thank you!

[Christos WC]

Philipp Bayer

Hello,

Does anyone know Delta Wing Chun and the lineage of Sifu Lakis Philippou?
Please watch the videos in youtube and comment please. I am quite new in Wing Chun so please help me.

Thank you!

[Phil Redmond]

Me, because it's "my" expression of WC ;)