Ready to Teach?

[WoodenYummy]

Hello fellow WingChunners!

At what level do you suppose someone is ready to begin teaching WC? Is it when they've been shown all the forms & techniques in their lineage or is it when they've "mastered" all of these said forms & techniques? Is it when they have a solid understanding of the basic principles of WC? What I am getting at is that it seems many (if not all) Sifu's are still essentially learning themselves. So ultimately, how does one know when they are "qualified" to begin teaching the basics of WC to others? I know certain schools & lineages have a specific "level" or "grade" where one receives the title instructor, but I am curious what others believe are the basic prerequistes for teaching the art. And please, can we avoid the obvious answer of "when your Sifu tells you that you are"...

For me personally, one of my biggest goals in studying WC is to get to the point where I can teach it to others. Partly because the desire to teach and share knowledge with others is in my nature, and partly because I believe "teaching" is a great medium for mastering the art. (i.e., by exploring how so many others experience and struggle with the art, you can gain a much deeper understanding of it) Not to mention that teaching, by its very nature, demands that you must continue to practice regularly into your old age. I know there are several Sifu's on this website so I am particularly interested in their thoughts, but as this is only a "title" per se (no disrespect intended), I am also interested in the views of those who have not attained this rank. Lets hear it!

[Liddel]

Personally i think you must have a sound understanding of most of the system -
Forms - drills and at least one of the weapons.

Sound understanding = knowing the why and How... we do what we do.

When my Sifu learnt from Sifu Lok you had to spend time as an assistant to then learn how to teach what you have. He was his assistant for a few years.

That lends itself to your point about when you teach you also are learning yourself... I followed this example - teaching newbies answering questions before Sifu pipes up etc etc

The final pre requisite for my Sifu was you had to have three real fights before being allowed to teach, which i strongly believe in also. Nowadays i consider ring experience or even a challenge match with another style on par...

Real use and experience is the important part IMO.

DREW

[JGTevo]

I firmly believe in the following: A normal student should never teach until they have developed themselves both mentally, physically and have extensive knowledge of what they are teaching.

It doesn't matter if you know the entire curriculum however, if you have not developed yourself mentally to teach, you will not have the confidence to lead your students to knowledge.

However, leading drills or or classes is very different than teaching, and this can be done as soon as the student has the physical ability and confidence to execute the techniques properly.

[bakxierboxer]

... as this is only a "title" per se (no disrespect intended), I am also interested in the views of those who have not attained this rank.

To westerners, it seems that it is exactly that, a "title".

It is not a title.

To a great degree, it is an "honorific" that is used to denote a specific relationship.
That relationship is a teacher/student one with "parental" overtones/aspects.
In the absence of that relationship, the term is either inappropriate or has no meaning whatsoever.

In proper use, it is only the student in such a relationship who addresses his teacher/parent with this term.

You will not normally hear a traditional teacher attempt to "elevate" himself by use of that term.

[RGVWingChun]

when I used to be in one wing chun association, they authorized people to start teaching kids at a chum kiu level and actually required 100 teaching hours working with the kids (all taught Siu Lim Tao level stuff) in order to be able to advance into Biu Jee.

I don't think there is a set standard of when simply because there is audience to consider. If you are teaching adults, you better have a firm grasp on what you are doing. Then you have to ask, "are you going to be instructing in a familiar place with familiar people" or are you going to be venturing out on your own? Are you going to be teaching as an assistant or as the head honcho in charge?

Personally, I think someone's sifu recognizes when their students are ready to teach at each level. Also, there are some people who may know the whole system etc...but are not suited to be teachers. Perhaps they don't have the demeanor for it, they have trouble speaking in front of groups, they don't understand teaching methodology and tactics, or they don't have the patiences, etc....everybody varies in those things.

Could also depend on how detailaed and developed ones Wing Chun system is. Some are very simplistic while others overcomplicate Wing Chun by adding other things not explicitly contained in the system like Iron Palm techniques; you have to consider if the person is competent to teach all that is within a particular system.

Those are just my thoughts

Moses

[couch]

IMO: If you know it, you can show it.

I think it's a good idea for the students who have been around for a little while (a few months even) to show the beginners the basics: stance, punch, theory, etc.

As we all know, teaching is another great way to learn something. Explaining things can sometimes be difficult, but the effort is worth it.

Best,
K

[LoneTiger108]

I was my teachers assistant for a few years, as were all my generation. Once I wanted to teach independently Sifu recommended us to the BCCMA and that is how it all began. New name, new insurance company, new curriculum!

I feel that I'm a Sifu to nobody, but a coach to few.

Teaching any Martial Art as best you can is a very difficult thing to achieve these days imo without the right amount of time, money and students.

All good kung fu requires uninterrupted training over long periods. Forever progressing. Teachers are normally 'selected' by Masters.

Just a thought...

[Liddel]

Teaching any Martial Art as best you can is a very difficult thing to achieve these days imo without the right amount of time.....


This actually reminds me of when i first met my teacher and asked him the approx time frame (his) VT required, to learn most of the system... thinking at that stage one could then teach.

Sifu said about 8 thousand hours. (bare in mind in his day it was 7 days a week 8 hours plus per day)

I come from a family of trades people and when i thought about this i realised its about the same time frame as an apprenticeship in a trade. :rolleyes: :o

Ive trained four times a week at two hours a pop on average.

8 (hpw) x 52 (wpy) - 416 (hpy) x 12 years (total training) = 4992 hours

Looks like im a little short :eek: :p

DREW

[WoodenYummy]

Drew - Great points, I particularly like the idea of 3 fights before teaching, I don't think the specific number really matters, but that you actually have used what you know in a full-contact scenario is a VERY valid point. As for the hours of training required, I hear you loud & clear... Too bad we all couldn't train 8hrs a day like in the old days ;) Living on rice and cleaning Sifu's house for a living (LOL)!!!!!!

JGTevo - I totally agree with you about the mental preperation required to teach, and some just do not have this, I think that goes for teaching anything. Also, the notion that leading a class is a great first step, but not at all the same thing as teaching students all by yourself.

Bakxierboxer - point well taken, as I said earlier I honestly do NOT mean any disrespect, I was just trying to make a point. And while I do agree with you about how the term "should" be used, I would be foolish to assume that every school and every teacher is deserving of this "term", even though they use it freely... But I do understand the siginificance of the term and the relationship it should imply. FYI, I have the utmost respect for my Sifu, and I do not consider it just a title

Moses - Your post reminds me of another thread I started 6 months ago, does a good teacher HAVE to be a good fighter, are the two mutually exclusive? I don't think so, as is the example of so many boxing & football coaches... Sometimes knowing something well and doing something well can have no visible connection at all...

And lastly Spencer - What is the BCCMA?

FWIW, I have no delusions that I am ready to teach any time soon, in fact I imagine I have at least another half-decade (if I'm lucky) of training before I could even seriuously consider it. My reason for raising these questions is that I am an extremely "goal-oriented" person so I like to have as clear an understanding as possible of where I am going and what it will take me to get there.

Thanks to all of you for your input!

[CFT]

And lastly Spencer - What is the BCCMA?British Council for Chinese Martial Arts

[LoneTiger108]

Correctamundo...

www.bccma.com

[Katsu Jin Ken]

The way its done at my school is after you learn all the forms (including dummy, knives, pole) then sifu has you start showing some of your younger kungfu brother drills, techniques ect...and you just go from there. As far as opening a school on your own. I believe that if your sifu and sigung gives you their blessings, thats how id do it.

[KPM]

IMO: If you know it, you can show it.

I think it's a good idea for the students who have been around for a little while (a few months even) to show the beginners the basics: stance, punch, theory, etc.

As we all know, teaching is another great way to learn something. Explaining things can sometimes be difficult, but the effort is worth it.

Best,
K

My thoughts exactly! :) You can learn from anyone!

[TenTigers]

hmmm, not sure about that, Bakxierboxer. When I was in Malaysia, the tour guide referrd to the bus driver as Sifu. (yeah, I did ask if he did Gung-Fu:-)

I know I'm having a knee-jerk reaction to this question, but in all actuality, the answer you don't want to hear, is still (in most cases) the best: When your Sifu says so.
Too many people teach prematurely.
Too many people teach for the wrong reasons-ego.

A certain amount of humility is needed to be a good Sifu.

There is a difference between being a good practitioner, and a good teacher. Teaching requires not only skill and understanding of your system, but the ability to communiucate this to your students. That, and the sensitivity to see each student as an individual, and be able to see what each student needs in order to grow and develop. It's nurturing, like growing a tree from a seed.

[bakxierboxer]

hmmm, not sure about that, Bakxierboxer.

Hmmmm.... wasn't "Not Sure" the name of the (anti)hero in "Idiocracy"?



When I was in Malaysia, the tour guide referrd to the bus driver as Sifu.

Aside from the small fact that you were in Malaysia.....
"Context is everything."



(yeah, I did ask if he did Gung-Fu:-)

I note that you're not telling us what his reaction was.



I know I'm having a knee-jerk reaction to this question....

:cool:
Again, "Context is everything."

:)
A "knee-jerk reaction" might be a great response to seeing an opening during a clinch in the octagon, but it would be a totally inappropriate response to a pair of soft/warm/suckulent/female lips on your tool.
:rolleyes:


in all actuality, the answer you don't want to hear, is still (in most cases) the best: When your Sifu says so.

"That depends."
(Izzattanuddah "context"?)
(maaaaaaybeeee it's two "contexts"?)
(could there be "even more" "contexts"?)

Contextually/IME, I've had several men I called "SiFu" in several different TCMA.

My first SiFu was a "nominal" SiFu in a "nominal" "TC"MA.... and that man told me to call him by that term. I actually meant it when I said it.

That man introduced me to another SiFu who didn't seem to care one way or the other what I called him, but he was clearly more proficient in TCMA.
I called him SiFu.
I really meant it when I said it.

I moved.
I opened a school.
People called me "SiFu". :confused:
Why?
When my first class started, one well-intentioned student asked me what he should call me.... I didn't have any better answer, so..... I said what I thought I should, and, at the time, I meant it.

In 1966, I was at an unlikely event to find/"bump into" a SiFu.... a NYC karate tournament.
Seeing the dual, dual-crossed knives on my gi-top sleeves, one fellow took exception to the idea that I taught a TCMA. saying:
"There's a real SiFu here!".... and more or less "challenging" me to come meet this paragon.
I went with him and I was surprised.... the guy actually was Chinese.
One thing led to another, and I shortly began calling him SiFu.... and meant it.

I took a trip back to SoCal, and started trading sets with the first man I called SiFu.
I still called him that.
He introduced me to an older Chinese man who very matter-of-factly asked that I call him what amounted to "Mr."
I asked him to teach me a set.
He put me with a senior student and watched, deadpanned, from the sidelines.
I came to notice that was his only "expression".
One day, he "did something" inexplicable.
I stood there and gawked, speachless.
He turned to look at me.... deadpanned.
I returned to the East Coast.
I thought about it.
I dreamed strange dreams.
A couple of years passed.
I returned to SoCal.
I went to see him.
I unthinkingly addressed him as SiFu, and really meant it.
His face split open in a grin I can only liken to the Cheshire Cat in "Alice in Wonderland".
He still does "inexplicable stuff", and, seemingly, there are no other students "involved".... even when they are "there".
He still "greets me" with that grin when I see him.
(which happens to be "a good trick" in itself, since he can seemingly become "invisible" to most folks)

The same first SiFu also introduced me to yet another TCMA teacher that he called by name.
I learned a lot from him, and I also addressed him by his name.

Time passed.
"Stuff happened."

My 3rd SiFu was injured in several auto accidents and couldn't get about, let alone teach me.
I asked him if I could take lessons from another SiFu in a "similar" style.
He said "OK".
I went to see the man, and he told me it would be "very expensive".
I replied that was OK, because I learned fast.
He asked who I'd trained with.
I told him.
He went behind his desk, took out a pair of ball-bearings and refused to talk any more.
I left, "disappointed" at the least.
The next thing that happened was that I got an angry call from my SiFu demanding to know why I'd gone there and "made trouble", and that the other SiFu had referred my visit to one of the Associations for "redress", apparently thinking I was there to "do him ill".
I explained what had happened in minute detail.
My SiFu reported back to the Association, which in turn told the other SiFu to p1ss off.

More time passed.
I still wasn't learning anything.

With some trepidation, I asked my SiFu if I could train under his teacher.
I got the "OK", and started taking lessons from him.
I called him SiGung and meant it.
Somehow I got "lumped in" with his disciples, who included my then-SiFu....
I had a question.
I asked the disciples about it, and they said "go ask your SiFu".
I asked my then-SiFu about it.
He told me to "go ask your SiFu"....
I went with it.
With a good deal of doubt, I addressed him: "SiFu.... blah, blah, blah....."
He looked at me and gave me an answer.
That was a rather long time ago.... probably longer than most of the board members have been alive.
I still call him SiFu and have never even considered looking for another.

I still "look at" other Masters, but it's largely "curiosity" to see if they "measure up" to the man I now call my SiFu....
I have absolutely no question as to whether or not I really mean it.

When I think about "my life", there are many people in it....
Some of them are men I called "SiFu" and I will continue to call them that.
I'm not able to "demote" them in my thinking, after all, they did "teach me".

OTOH, when I think about my TCMA, there is only one man at the center of it, and he has been my only measure for what I've done in it.... for a rather long time, now.

[bennyvt]

Hi
My teacher is called "Bill", his teacher is "barry". We only call barry sifu to tease him. He doesnt like to be called a sifu he finds it strange. Bill only got Sifu papers as a legal and insurance thing.
I depends on what you are teaching, as long as you know why they need to do it and all the steps needed it should be fine. Except chi sao, my teacher was allowed to teach chum kiu but not chi sao until barry said he was ready. Barry strongly believe that you have to learn chi sao right or your training is stuffed.
Oh and Barry also doesnt think he has finished the system as he is still working on a bit of the knife form. And he finished the forms etc in the seventies but he says you are learning until you die.
So it probably seems weird that in other posts I call them bill and barry but this is no disrespect. They dont need titles to show who they are, actions speak louder then words. And in australia we tend to be pretty laid back.

[Achilles1987]

In my organisation and in all GM Leung Ting Style based organisations it requires the "SiFu" title to make examination and give degrees to students. For being a Sifu you need to be at least 2nd Tecnician Grade but normally a person becomes a Sifu at 3rd Tecnician Grade and that means approx. 9 years of active learning and practice of the style. In my opinion a you do not need to be a SiFu to teach but you need at least 12th Student Grade approx. 3 years of active learning and practice. That means full knowledge on Siu nim Tau and Chum Kiu forms and their applications and superior knowledge of self-defence in practical.

[bennyvt]

This is not meant as a thing against other schools but I have never really liked the whole grading system thing. I used to teach children and I had to make a grading system because I felt children needed the encouragement and sense of accomplishment that comes from the symbol of the grading. But I have always hated the belt system or other alternatives as several reasons. *People think that the title actually means something*It is normally used as a marketing tool and cost money each time you go up levels*As more people start there is a pyramid style of title meaning that eventually people have to make others masters, grandmasters and great grandmasters because you have to move other people up levels so they cant be on the same one.
*Politics start to become involved on who should move up etc. VT has never needed grading, in our school you learn until you are told that you can run a school (there are only 6 people that are allowed to run a Barry lee school in Australia maybe one or two in germany). As soon as you learn something you are helping to teach others that are junior to you so really you are always teaching. You even teach you teacher sometimes. When I went to china I found people that needed you to call them things so they felt important. Others knew they were good so didn’t need it, Sifu Cliff Au Yeung being a prime example, he is Cliff I call him cliff and deeply respect him. Most others were really nice people that talked to you normally. In my experience the people that could kill you are the nicest as they know they can they don’t have to prove it to themselves by people falling over them.;)
But I also understand the need for people to be able to tell if people are legit, but there are so many different levels of ability that it makes it very hard. You also have people that claim stuff that isn’t right so you need some sort of middle ground.
In the history of vt peoples titles especially ones given to themself have been a big problem

[Paul T England]

Hi,

You should be able to teach what you know.

I think if you are helping your sifu or teaching a few friends then you can start teaching early on, let’s say after SNT. If you are teaching publicly then you should be close to Black Belt / Sash level and for Wing chun I would say have at least a solid SNT & CK + some dummy or 3rd form. (Or 3-4 years experience as you would expect from a brown or black belt)

Paul