Stance.

[Grilo]

Hello, my question to all is about stance opening. When you start your yee gee kim yeung ma do you start with your feet together or shoulder width or a space between. Do you have a high stance, low stance, abnormally low stance. Have you tried any other way.

I am new to wing chun(at it about 6 months) but I am not new to understanding. As I grow and reseaching I am wondering the opinions as to the variety in the stance of wing chun. I have studied human mechanics and rooting and kinetic linking so I am curious as to how people feel a taller stance or lower stance is better or more suited.

I ask questions to open doors in your mind. If you stop thinking about what you are doing, are you doing it right or just mimicing movements?

Thank you in advanced and please dont flame this thread. There should be some stickys on basics for new people to this site. Stance, Centerline theory, Punching, Pivoting.

Grilo.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The normal way of doing this is to have the feet together. The toes out and then heels out will give you a ball park spread between the feet. If it is not comfortable, you can just spread them out until you feel very comfortable. Having too great a spread, or wide horse, you lose mobility so some extent. The same thing applies to having the feet too close together. The stance is not just going to give you mobility to move in and out, but it gives you the ability to root down solid. If you stand fully errect with feet close together you can not muster enough force to shove a large heavy object. But by dropping down and spreading them out a little you can put force directly into the push. If you are down a few inches you will throw punches at close to a 45 degree angle upward. That lines up very close to the angle of the leg that is your root. I can remember a very long time ago when I first started to learn this stance. It was the most awkward feeling position I have ever tried to hold. But, I was doing it wrong. One of my older brothers finally broke down and showed me the proper stance. I was trying to bend at the hips, which is quite common among some styles. I stand up errect with my back straight. I just bend at the knees and as the knee moves forward I begin to drop lower and lower. I go down about 4 inches. I can go lower. I used to practice this. I would bend at the knees until I was almost touching the ground with the knee. Then I would go back up. I did this sort of like a squat, over and over. The only thing that really hurt was my feet as they tried to come up from the floor and I forced them to remain flat. The toes bent in slightly will take stress from the hips and upper legs too.

[WoodenYummy]

Stances: wider = more stable, narrower = more mobility. WC = perfect mix of the two ;)

Also, in regards to sinking, I have heard from numerous sources, in many different circles (Kung Fu & Pilates) that the knee should never extend beyond the toes. It puts undue stress on the ligaments in the knee and can cause damage. Having wrecked my knees from snowboarding last, this is very apparent to me. I damaged my ACL last season, and although I have recovered quite well, I can tell (quite painfully) whenever my knees go past my toes...

I am a fairly intelligent guy and I have never found it "hard" for me to learn new ideas or subjects, but what drew me to the study of WC is how completely different it is to teach your body something new! Learning with the mind is one thing, learning to coordinate your core & limbs in new (and simultaneously different) configurations is a whole new struggle for me. If it was easy we'd all be masters already, right?

Best of luck in your studies. I hope you stick with it, I find Wing Chun to be one of the most rewarding studies I've ever encountered, and I say this after 8 years of college and grad school!

[k gledhill]

the more important focus should be on becoming a highly mobile fighter....the 'stance' is just for timeout to train certain aspects required ...to become a fighter, not a practitioner of forms and chi-sao.
Old school methods would adopt lengthy stance sessions to check ones resolve to further teaching . That is an archaic method , redundant to fighting.
The toes are turned in to give the hip stability , either foot that leads when fighting is turned in slightly . This turns the upper thigh joint into a more stable position to support all the forces and combined energies you will both give and receive simultaneously, while
FIGHTING.

The SLT stance should have the feet together if the range of motion of the toes is sufficient to gain the right 'end'...if the student has less range of motion to spread the toes out while 'measuring' the distances by toe/heel actions, a starting gap between the feet can be done , all depending on the individual doing it....as long as the student understands the reasons and the end positions the 'EXACT' positions are only relative to the person doing it...no such thing , just guide lines.

The term 'hands' is used to measure horses, we measure our 'horse' by turning the toes out and the pivotin gon the big toe to slide the heels out to achieve the 'hip stability' . A further posterior tilt of the pelvis brings the lower back into alignment.

The connection you make from the heels into your fist should be basic physics...
equal and opposite reactions/force....whatever you drive into the ground with in terms of lbs force, should have a 'channel' back from the ground ,through your structure to your contact points ,during the fight.

The width of your stance is also guided by the need to make lateral flanking shifts while staying balanced along your axis line head to ground. Movements and energies will all be combined when FIGHTING to allow stability under pressure...

If you practice the stance think to isolate the time to perfect these requirements, rather than be a good stance alone toes in hips tucked back shoulders relaxed , focusing on the ELBOWS ;)

Chum Kil will give you the ideas of how to engage the opponent with shifts , facing, turning relative to their movement , not pre-rehearsed 'applications'....you will be a moving 'hard target' not a statue fighter who stands before all comers and then attacks down the center with a lead leg chain punching:D

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, you have an elegant way of putting words together. I wish I had that. Anyway, Rather than make the stance a static position, In my first year of training I would stand in the stance for periods of time to become comfortable in it. The understanding was that I would actually tweak and move about and perfect it to meet my own body mechanics. I learned to shift horses and apply the regular footwork while remaining in that stance. I even ran the horse while remaining in the stance. This way I could very naturally be in a stance all the time so that I could apply technique with maximum performance for my own body. My brother Jimm could walk faster than an average man could run. All my brothers would walk with the feet at stance distance. Habit I think more than anything.
I have bad knees now, but even with the bad knees I can still drop low into a neutral stance and hold it for a very long time and not feel any stress or strain at all. I can walk and even run in that same stance with no discomfort. Another way of training the stance is to have yourself a post or tree or something solid to push against, drop into the stance and push against it. As hard as you can. This helps you to tweak the stance for stability and structure. Arm position and such as well.

[Phil Redmond]

We start out with the heels together and the toes pointing at 45 degrees outward. It's just like the position of attention in the U.S. Military.

[Hendrik]

it is entering an energy state, not standing a stance.....



according to Yik Kam's kuit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g



my 5 cents