What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?

[LoneTiger108]

Here's a clip from Beijing 2008, where an International Wushu and Sanshou Competition was promoted alongside the Olympic Games

http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

I've never been one for competitions, but I've followed the development of Wushu and it's proposed Olympic status. I can see why so many students would benefit from training to compete in Taolu, Dulien and Sanshou, so isn't the Olympics where we should be looking towards for our future generations?

Sanshou Competitions are already established and present a decent enough platform for Wing Chun fighters to enter, surely?

What do you think?

[t_niehoff]

If you view WCK as a kickboxing method, then it is a great idea.

[LoneTiger108]

If you view WCK as a kickboxing method, then it is a great idea.

Why would a Wing Chun fighter have to use a Kickboxing method?

[anerlich]

Why would a Wing Chun fighter have to use a Kickboxing method?

Um, because, if you're using WC with gloves on under San Shou rules you'll be doing a lot of kicking and punching?

A number of WC practitioners have succeeded in events under kickboxing, San Shou and MMA rules. The problems some have had are generally due to an inability of unwillingness to adapt rather than problems with the rules or with WC per se.

To succeed at an elite level in these arenas you will need to cross train and work with different styles of fighters. though IMO only a fool would regard that as something to be avoided.

[Fa Xing]

though IMO only a fool would regard that as something to be avoided.

It's just our luck that the martial arts world is full of such fools!

[t_niehoff]

The point is they are not "using WCK with gloves on" for the most part -- they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren't effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing). That easy to see. They are not predominantly using the movements of WCK, those movements/techniques in the forms and drills but are using mainly nonWCK movements (jab, cross, round kick, etc.), movements not in the WCK forms and drills. That's why they always end up looking like poor muay thai fighters. For example,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znYE1PoY-AQ

I think kickboxing is great. If you want to kickbox, however, it makes more sense to practice an art where the movements you learn and train are the movements you actually use in kickboxing as opposed to tan, bong, fook, etc.

I agree that crosstraining is great too. If you want to kickbox, you need to crosstrain. If you want to fight on the ground, you need to crosstrain. But it doesn't make sense to go to a subgrappling competition or a kickboxing cometition to practice your WCK.

[stonecrusher69]

If you want to do San Shou then just do That why train Wing Chun to compete in San Shou competitions. If I my goal was to compete in San Shou I would not want to learn Wing Chun what good what that do?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i've tried chi sau and other drills with 12 and 8 oz gloves on it messes with you considerably, pok with boxing gloves is out imo as well as many others youd be restricted to using tan bong fuk imho

[JPinAZ]

The point is they are not "using WCK with gloves on" for the most part -- they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren't effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing). That easy to see. They are not predominantly using the movements of WCK, those movements/techniques in the forms and drills but are using mainly nonWCK movements (jab, cross, round kick, etc.), movements not in the WCK forms and drills.

This could be true, if only look at WC from a technique POV. But WC has concepts and principals that can be used in any environment. Maybe some 'techniques' won't work because of gloves or rules, but the strategies/tactics and concepts are still there. WCK isn't just a bunch of techniques or 'moves'...

[anerlich]

The point is they are not "using WCK with gloves on" for the most part -- they are kickboxing with gloves on and throwing in a few WCK moves (which mostly aren't effective) from time to time (WCK kickboxing).

I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.

So must Alan Orr and his guys.

Still waiting for you to walk the talk, T. At the moment you're just demonstrating that you can talk about a subject a great length and still be ignorant thereon.


pok with boxing gloves is out imo as well

Crap.This is a basic boxing parry. Read Jack Dempsey's book and educate yourself.

I agree you can't chi sao with boxing gloves, but you can't fight with chi sao either.

[t_niehoff]

This could be true, if only look at WC from a technique POV. But WC has concepts and principals that can be used in any environment. Maybe some 'techniques' won't work because of gloves or rules, but the strategies/tactics and concepts are still there. WCK isn't just a bunch of techniques or 'moves'...

If you look at any martial art -- ANY martial art -- it is easily identifiable from its movements. We train our bodies. Our bodies perform movements, actions, not concepts. If we have concepts or principles, they inform our movements. The language of any martial art is movement. When you aren't using WCK mvements, you are not using the WCK language. You are speaking a foreign langange.

[t_niehoff]

I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.


No, you guys "practice WCK" (do the forms and drills) and also practice kickboxing where you spar without using much WCK and incorporate kickboxing techniques so that you can perform at that range. As I said, it is easy to see -- just look at your movement while sparring and count the WCK movement. You'll see that you aren't moving like you do when doing forms and drills, you are moving like kickboxers, doing what they do.

And that's fine, but it's not WCK.



So must Alan Orr and his guys.


No, they're not.



Still waiting for you to walk the talk, T. At the moment you're just demonstrating that you can talk about a subject a great length and still be ignorant thereon.


Still waiting for your visit -- as I said, I'll be glad to meet with anyone. In person.

But it reaqlly doesn't mattter -- you don't need any significant skill to see the truth of this. A complete beginner can grasp it if they look at it objectively. You learn to move a certain way in the forms and drills, you train that same way of movement, but when you fight you do something else. How can this be what you have learned and trained? How can this be good learning and training?

If you say that isn't the case, that you do use the same movement in fighting that you do inthe forms and drills (which obviously you don't claim, as you would have already adddressed that), you could show it.



Crap.This is a basic boxing parry. Read Jack Dempsey's book and educate yourself.

I agree you can't chi sao with boxing gloves, but you can't fight with chi sao either.

This wasn't addressed to my comments but I'll comment on it --

Pak sao isn't the same thing as what boxer's do (cuffing). This is what happens when you look at things from a kickboxing perspective.

And yes, you don't use chi sao while fighting. But you do use the contaact skills that you learn from chi sao while fighting since WCK is a contact fighting method (it really makes great sense to learn and practice contact skills at great length to kickbox, doesn't it?;) ).

[TenTigers]

ok, what am I missing? Do you chi-sao only with your hands, or do you use your bridge? Tan, bong, fook are relying on hands? I must have been taught completely wrong. Dang! All those years wasted!

Jack Dempsey's book is pure gold.
Everyone should own or read this book-especially for his punch.
I laugh every time I see the term, "Straight Blast."

[KPM]

.

But it reaqlly doesn't mattter -- you don't need any significant skill to see the truth of this. A complete beginner can grasp it if they look at it objectively. You learn to move a certain way in the forms and drills, you train that same way of movement, but when you fight you do something else. How can this be what you have learned and trained? How can this be good learning and training?



I gotta agree with the Big T here. Many many moons ago I used to compete in the point tournaments that were very popular at the time. It always amazed me and frustrated me that you could watch the first part of the competition where the Black Belts competed in forms and see some really cool looking stuff. You might see Goju competing against Tae Kwon Do competing against Shaolin Kung Fu. But then later in the day it would come time for the sparring competition and you couldn't tell these guys apart! What happened to all those cool Kung Fu moves? What happened to those strong Karate stances and punches? They all did the same thing in the sparring ring. I wondered way back then why anyone would spend all that time learning those fancy forms if they couldn't use it in fighting.

[JPinAZ]

If you look at any martial art -- ANY martial art -- it is easily identifiable from its movements.

Only if you are looking from a technique POV, which you are obviously doing. I don't think we can even have a conversation here on a WC forum because, frankly, you really don't seem to undersand WCK.


We train our bodies. Our bodies perform movements, actions, not concepts. If we have concepts or principles, they inform our movements. The language of any martial art is movement. When you aren't using WCK mvements, you are not using the WCK language. You are speaking a foreign langange.

What are you even talking about? What is a 'wing chun movement'?? Are you talking about the techiniques like Taan Bong Fook? What supports these movements? Answer: the concepts/principals.
Sorry, but you're wrong - WC isn't just a bunch of movements. I can use WC concepts with boxing gloves on or off. No duh, some of the 'movements' don't work, but the ideas of center line, body structure, 2-line, gate thoery, etc still remains. Ok, so I can't use a fook with gloves on, so does that mean I can't use WC because I can't use a few techniques?

It's funny, you come here saying what is and isn't WC, how would you even know? It's clear why you think someone would be speaking a foreign langauge, you don't even know how to say hello with WC....

[Knifefighter]

I guess my classmates that have succeeded using WC in kickboxing, MMA, and kyokushin rules must be wrong then, unlike you, a non-fighter.

So must Alan Orr and his guys..

Here's the problem. When boxers, BJJ, MMA, and MT fighters fight, they look very much like they do when they drill and spar.

Most WC, including Alan and his guys, look very little in fighting like they do when they are doing their WC drills. In my opinion, most of any success they have comes from their crosstraining, rather than their specific WC training.

[t_niehoff]

Only if you are looking from a technique POV, which you are obviously doing. I don't think we can even have a conversation here on a WC forum because, frankly, you really don't seem to undersand WCK.


We can't have a conversation because you are dealing in fantasy (on many levels) and I in reality.

Athletes practice movement, regardless of the athletic activity. You don't do anything physical except through your movement. No movement, no martial art. The movement that WCK practitioners learn and train is WCK movement. This is true for all martial arts.



What are you even talking about? What is a 'wing chun movement'?? Are you talking about the techiniques like Taan Bong Fook? What supports these movements? Answer: the concepts/principals.


Your body can't do a concept/principle -- it performs a movement. Tan/bong/fook are actions, they are movements that have a specific objective. Throwing a ball isn't a concept, it is a movement, a skill (a movement with an objective).



Sorry, but you're wrong - WC isn't just a bunch of movements. I can use WC concepts with boxing gloves on or off. No duh, some of the 'movements' don't work, but the ideas of center line, body structure, 2-line, gate thoery, etc still remains. Ok, so I can't use a fook with gloves on, so does that mean I can't use WC because I can't use a few techniques?


All your theories are nonsense, fantasy. If you are not using WCK movement, you are not using WCK. If you are not using boxing movements, you aren't doing boxing. The movements are the "tools" of your art. You guys like to kid yourselves into believing that while you can't use the tools of WCK in fighting, that you know and "understand" WCK.



It's funny, you come here saying what is and isn't WC, how would you even know? It's clear why you think someone would be speaking a foreign langauge, you don't even know how to say hello with WC....

I'm sorry, what do I need to do -- steal some forms, make up some history, call myself grandmaster, found a lineage, come up with a nonsensical theory to "know" what I am talking about? ;)

It is easy to see if someone is boxing or not or if someone is wrestling or not or if someone is doing judo or not -- you can look at their movement, and see if they are doing the things (the movements) they learn and practice in their sparring. Simple. It's so simple that even you should be able to see it.

[sihing]

I think it is fair to say that if one is training in WC at a intense level, that this will be seen in what they do in their fighting actions, up to a point. The goal is to never perform WC. And this is where I see the problem today. If you go on youtube, all you really see is practitioners trying to use WC, performing tan sau's, bong sau's, chain punches, etc..., the problem with this is WC is NOT a application art. It is a training system, the drills and forms teach us body mechanics and attributes (facing, fast stable footwork, straightline punching, structure, efficency, short power, etc...), the drills are not meant to compete with, nor are they meant to fight with. It is the attributes we gain from the training that we use when defending ourselves, so it is I that is moving, punching, kicking, not the art of WC. The application of it is totally up to the individual, and IMO no two practitoners (even from the same lineage), should not look the same when using what they have learned from the training.

A old story about WSL, most have probably heard this before, but he was fighting in a beimo match, and the opponent had his head in a lower level position, WSL brought his knee up and hit his opponent with it, ending the match. He was chastised by his fellow practitioners for not using "WC technique", he replied by saying that he used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun. The techniques bring alive the concepts and prinicipals that WC teaches us, but economy of motion dictates to us that we only use what we need from the system to get the job done, and to not be a slave to it.


As far as the question this thread askes, I do not think it is possible to use WC in san sau comps, as it is always the individual practitioners that are using anything they have learned. WC is not meant for comps, not because it is too "deadly", rather because it is limited in it's application and not designed for such a purpose. San sau, like all "fighting, is a comparison of combat skills btwn two individuals looking to find how good they are. Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can't defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.


James

[t_niehoff]

I think it is fair to say that if one is training in WC at a intense level, that this will be seen in what they do in their fighting actions, up to a point. The goal is to never perform WC. And this is where I see the problem today. If you go on youtube, all you really see is practitioners trying to use WC, performing tan sau's, bong sau's, chain punches, etc..., the problem with this is WC is NOT a application art. It is a training system, the drills and forms teach us body mechanics and attributes (facing, fast stable footwork, straightline punching, structure, efficency, short power, etc...), the drills are not meant to compete with, nor are they meant to fight with. It is the attributes we gain from the training that we use when defending ourselves, so it is I that is moving, punching, kicking, not the art of WC. The application of it is totally up to the individual, and IMO no two practitoners (even from the same lineage), should not look the same when using what they have learned from the training.


Another great example of trying to explain why you can't use the things you learn and practice -- in this case, your theory is that those things you learn and practice are never meant to be used in the first place!! Brilliant! Spend years, decades, doing forms and drills, practicing movements that you will never use. That makes absolutely no sense -- and you won't develop any "attributes" that way.

The "attributes" only matter in using our tools, our movements -- what does it matter if a boxer or a wrestler has good "attributes" if he doesn't have a boxer's or wrestler's tools (skills)? Good technique (movement) not only uses attributes but maximizes them. You develop good technique from practice, from repetition of movement.

Of course it is up to the individual, and no two will look the same, but that is true of boxers, wrestlers, MT, BJJ, etc. Yet, they all move the same way in application (fighting) as they learn and practice.



A old story about WSL, most have probably heard this before, but he was fighting in a beimo match, and the opponent had his head in a lower level position, WSL brought his knee up and hit his opponent with it, ending the match. He was chastised by his fellow practitioners for not using "WC technique", he replied by saying that he used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun. The techniques bring alive the concepts and prinicipals that WC teaches us, but economy of motion dictates to us that we only use what we need from the system to get the job done, and to not be a slave to it.


The story is silly. Who says knee strikes aren't in the WCK arsenal?

Closest weapon to the nearest target is not WCK "theory". Not only that, but that "theory" itself makes poor sense. Nor does or can "economy of motion" -- another nonWCK "theory" -- dictate anything we do. Where do people come up with this crap?

The only thing people seem a slave to is nonsensical "theory".



As far as the question this thread askes, I do not think it is possible to use WC in san sau comps, as it is always the individual practitioners that are using anything they have learned. WC is not meant for comps, not because it is too "deadly", rather because it is limited in it's application and not designed for such a purpose. San sau, like all "fighting, is a comparison of combat skills btwn two individuals looking to find how good they are. Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can't defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.
James

It's not a question of whether or not it is "meant for competition" -- the issue is whether if we have fighting skills we can use them in a fighting environment, including competition. And obviously, as long as the rules of the competition don't prevent us from using our skills (as putting a wrestler in a boxing match would, for example) we should be able to use them. The rules of the sanshou competition impose outside (noncontact) fighting, so it will "look" like boxing or kickboxing and not WCK.

[KPM]

The rules of the sanshou competition impose outside (noncontact) fighting, so it will "look" like boxing or kickboxing and not WCK.

Bingo! But I think you need to explain to everyone what you mean by "outside/noncontact" fighting vs. "inside/contact" fighting. Not everyone understands their WCK this way, which is the problem. I have been training my WCK this way following things I've learned about Robert Chu/Alan Orr's approach and its made a big difference in what I do. So I think I understand what you are saying. But my bet is that I'm probably the only one here that does. :)

[Knifefighter]

Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can't defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.

LOL @ the old self-defense rationalization... one of the biggest cop-outs ever invented.

[sihing]

Another great example of trying to explain why you can't use the things you learn and practice -- in this case, your theory is that those things you learn and practice are never meant to be used in the first place!! Brilliant! Spend years, decades, doing forms and drills, practicing movements that you will never use. That makes absolutely no sense -- and you won't develop any "attributes" that way.

The "attributes" only matter in using our tools, our movements -- what does it matter if a boxer or a wrestler has good "attributes" if he doesn't have a boxer's or wrestler's tools (skills)? Good technique (movement) not only uses attributes but maximizes them. You develop good technique from practice, from repetition of movement.

Of course it is up to the individual, and no two will look the same, but that is true of boxers, wrestlers, MT, BJJ, etc. Yet, they all move the same way in application (fighting) as they learn and practice.



The story is silly. Who says knee strikes aren't in the WCK arsenal?

Closest weapon to the nearest target is not WCK "theory". Not only that, but that "theory" itself makes poor sense. Nor does or can "economy of motion" -- another nonWCK "theory" -- dictate anything we do. Where do people come up with this crap?

The only thing people seem a slave to is nonsensical "theory".



It's not a question of whether or not it is "meant for competition" -- the issue is whether if we have fighting skills we can use them in a fighting environment, including competition. And obviously, as long as the rules of the competition don't prevent us from using our skills (as putting a wrestler in a boxing match would, for example) we should be able to use them. The rules of the sanshou competition impose outside (noncontact) fighting, so it will "look" like boxing or kickboxing and not WCK.

I think you may have missed the point, but that is okay, we all see what we want to see in interpreting things based on our POV.

Good Luck to you.

James

[Edmund]

It is the attributes we gain from the training that we use when defending ourselves, so it is I that is moving, punching, kicking, not the art of WC. The application of it is totally up to the individual, and IMO no two practitoners (even from the same lineage), should not look the same when using what they have learned from the training.


I agree.
Training drills and forms will not always look like how it is applied. A great example is judo. The uchi mata as seen in Judo kata or static drills only demonstrates the basic idea of the throw. In competition, it almost never looks like that. There's so many variations of mechanics, grips, setups and entries for uchi mata because of individual preference or the situation.





WC is not meant for comps, not because it is too "deadly", rather because it is limited in it's application and not designed for such a purpose. San sau, like all "fighting, is a comparison of combat skills btwn two individuals looking to find how good they are. Self defence is different, it is unexpected, with no fore knowledge, and much more dangerous. WC is designed to teach us how to efficiently defend ourselves, finish the job fast and get out with the least amount of injury, not to trade blows with someone, to score points or to win approval from the crowd. Different environments, different needs. This is not to say that competiton guys can't defend themselves, off course they can, but this is not the purpose of their training.


I think that you can't prepare for a san sao match without adapting to the format. You'd have to train more specifically for that sort of thing. There's rules and equipment. It's not possible to just enter on a whim. You'd have to change your style to do well.

Having said that, the techniques of WC are a decent fit for san sao matches. There's kicks, punches and throws. The main problem is that high throws score quite highly compared to strikes AFAIK.

[Edmund]

The rules of the sanshou competition impose outside (noncontact) fighting, so it will "look" like boxing or kickboxing and not WCK.

I think that's a little inaccurate. You have to watch some of it from China. In san shou, you throw when you are in contact. Even a little trip or sweep scores a bit. They do not let you just hug it out for 10 seconds though.

[Liddel]

Another one of these threads in fine form. LOL

My boxing friends HATE light sparring without Gloves, i love it. They cant handle the contact without raps and padding.

I have TKB sparring partners (one of which is my best friend) who dont use elbows or kness in sparring cause they are to dangerous. (thats thier training approach)

I have a grappler friend who cant roll with strikes, and forget about trying to practice in my garage with a concrete floor, we have to go to the local school to use the grass field.

IMO these are just some similar examples to what we are discussing here with VT in a specific setting. (SanShou)

I feel there are some valid points about how VT aint the best approach for competing in SanShou comps etc.

Personally in a comp setting just with gloves on i feel i need more space, my elbow must give more space, my center punching must be wider, im not allowed to kick knees or stomp to start and end combos....elbows are out :o

So while i agree with some points about VT ineffectness in certain settings i know what settings it is good for. :rolleyes:....

and i personally believe if you dont see what i call the base habbit actions of VT. Bong Tan Pak. the diff stepping shapes and weight dist, the timing behaviour - action vs reaction.... in such a setting. That particular person doesnt belong in the comp using VT in the first place. :o

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

Functional wing chun has got to look very similar to boxing, kickboxing, etc. until if and when the fight is very close quarter - and even then there's much that will happen that can and will look alot like boxing or Muay Thai - but perhaps with more of an emphasis on center-of-mass or blindside positoning, forward pressure while attacking his center-of-mass and of course some signature wing chun moves like lop, pak, lan, bil, garn, vertical fist punches, low heel kick, etc.

But not always. The fight could be over by knockout or into a clinch before hardly any of the above happens.

Certain wing chun principles can be used at other ranges - but wing chun "signature" moves will only be seen at close quarters - and could come and go in the blink of an eye.

Marrying wing chun to boxing, kickboxing, etc. is the answer - whether people admit what they're doing or not. No knock on Alan and his guys - especially since I think they're good fighters - and certainly no knock on Keith Mazza'a TWC guys who've appeared on this forum via tournament vids....(to use but 2 examples)...

but they look alot like boxers/kickboxers - and the same "criticism" was leveled at me several years ago when I posted some sparring vids.

But it is what it is.

[t_niehoff]

"Functional wing chun" is using the movement of WCK successfully in fighting (if you can't use it successfully, how can it be functional?). But, there is really no such thing as "functional wing chun" -- that's like saying "functional tennis". You simply perform at your level.

If your movement/technique "looks" like boxing or kickboxing, then you are not using the movements of WCK as boxing and kickboxing has a different sort of movement than WCK (and WCK has a different sort of movement than boxing and kickboxing). Just look at the traditional WCK forms and drills -- how much does THAT movement "look" like boxing or kickboxing?

Skill in WCK is using the movements that we practice, those things/tools from the forms/drills successfully in fighting. If you are not using those movements, then you are not doing WCK. So if what you are doing "looks" like boxing or kickboxing, you are not using WCK.

But when people try to fight on the outside in nonattached fighting, it will come to "look" like boxing or kickboxing because it has to. For example, take greco and fight on the outside and you won't see any greco movement, you will see boxing/kickboxing. That's what happens when you take a attached (contact) fighting method like WCK and try to make it "work" on the outside -- it will "evolve" into kickboxing, devoid of most WCK movement (which is attached, contact movement).

Seeing this, people rationalize it (after all, their grandmaster couldn't be wrong!) by saying "well, yes, you can't use the movements, but you can use the principles of wing chun"! They don't see that you can't separate the movement from the principle. When you aren't using WCK movement, you are not using WCK principle.

[LoneTiger108]

It's good to see sensible discussion about a topic I created! :D

I personally like the Sanshou model and can see many points being raised here that only add to my sometimes wayward opinions.

If only the UK based BCCMA had more Wing Chun competitors! :( Maybe then there would be a recognised arena for us to roll-out Internationally.

Time will tell.

[punchdrunk]

i think wing chunners have to adjust their training and fighting methods for competition, just like every other art, depending on the venue. bjj, wrestling, boxers, thai boxers everyone changes for mma vs other forms of comp vs self defense. Stances change, strikes change, grappling changes so does the training methods... it comes down to the athlete not the "style"

[Liddel]

t_niehoff
Skill in WCK is using the movements that we practice, those things/tools from the forms/drills successfully in fighting. If you are not using those movements, then you are not doing WCK. So if what you are doing "looks" like boxing or kickboxing, you are not using WCK.


I agree to an extent - and thats to say we need to be more specific in whats similar and whats totally different.
I can only speak of myslef in this regard.

When i saprr in a ring, you see a more mobile horse and a less obvious Bi Jong pose or guard if you will, from say Gor Sau ... but its still VT.

Youd see rounder punches because of the space i need with 16oz gloves.
A lack of several habbit actions wouldnt come out, like elbows and stomps...so i counter that with using more round punches like hooks etc.

You can say it looks like im boxing but in fact i create round punches in a different way to boxing. Im not widening my elbow away from my body... my turning body creates the round shape still adhering to techniques in my VT.
It snaps in a different way and takes a differnt path but "looks" similar cause its still a punch dam it LOL

You would see habbit actions like Tan to open space for my punch, if anything it is more pronounced as my punch requires more space with a glove on.
Youd see me Parry (Pak) actions like jabs and even crosses.

Youd see me bong Guarn or Gum kicks.
I use front kicks like my Kickboxer sparring partners but my touch point is differnt and i raise the action differnt, my body support is differnt but to a lamen it looks similar......so i feel you should see elements of VT not something totally foreign to other fighting arts...

Its when you see nothing that resembles VT then theres a problem.

DREW

[t_niehoff]

I agree to an extent - and thats to say we need to be more specific in whats similar and whats totally different.
I can only speak of myslef in this regard.


The issue isn't similarity or dissimilarlity -- comparisons will always produce similarities. The issue is: are you doing what (the movement) you learn and train to do when you fight? If you learn/train movement X (WCK) but then do movement Y when you fight, you're not using your training.



When i saprr in a ring, you see a more mobile horse and a less obvious Bi Jong pose or guard if you will, from say Gor Sau ... but its still VT.


That's what they all say -- I'm doing things differently than I learn/train but I'm still doing it!



Youd see rounder punches because of the space i need with 16oz gloves.
A lack of several habbit actions wouldnt come out, like elbows and stomps...so i counter that with using more round punches like hooks etc.


Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.



You can say it looks like im boxing but in fact i create round punches in a different way to boxing. Im not widening my elbow away from my body... my turning body creates the round shape still adhering to techniques in my VT.
It snaps in a different way and takes a differnt path but "looks" similar cause its still a punch dam it LOL


It "looks" like boxing because you are using boxing movement (technique). And if you don't train boxing, then you are most likely using the movement poorly. You've thrown out your WCK for something else that you don't train.

If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK. You can't use WCK technique and have it not look like WCK. We all do turning punches in WCK and they look like turning punches, not boxing punches.



You would see habbit actions like Tan to open space for my punch, if anything it is more pronounced as my punch requires more space with a glove on.
Youd see me Parry (Pak) actions like jabs and even crosses.


If you're fighting on the outside and "parrying" jabs and crosses (where do people come up with these ideas?), you're kickboxing.



Youd see me bong Guarn or Gum kicks.
I use front kicks like my Kickboxer sparring partners but my touch point is differnt and i raise the action differnt, my body support is differnt but to a lamen it looks similar......so i feel you should see elements of VT not something totally foreign to other fighting arts...


In other words, you're using the same movements as the kickboxers but you may see "elements" of WCK -- well, that's exactly what all "WCK kickboxers" do: they mainly kickbox using nonWCK movement and occassionally try and perform a WCK movement (a "parrying" pak sao, for example) here and there.



Its when you see nothing that resembles VT then theres a problem.

DREW

Imagine a boxer saying when I spar, what I do doesn't really look like what I have learned or train to do (in terms of movement) but I do occassionally throw in a boxing movement -- and I don't have a problem with that, after all, it is only when you don't see anything that resembles boxing movement that you've got a problem. ;)

[Edmund]

and i personally believe if you dont see what i call the base habbit actions of VT. Bong Tan Pak. the diff stepping shapes and weight dist, the timing behaviour - action vs reaction.... in such a setting. That particular person doesnt belong in the comp using VT in the first place. :o


I think that's a really good point.
Base habits and concepts like timing and angles are the most important foundations that apply in all sorts of settings whether it's san shou comps or self defence.

If you only rely on close quarters skills without those base skills, I think you're going to be very ill prepared for any form of fighting. Not all fights are going to be in close quarters.


Functional wing chun has got to look very similar to boxing, kickboxing, etc. until if and when the fight is very close quarter - and even then there's much that will happen that can and will look alot like boxing or Muay Thai


Agreed. When people complain it looks like kickboxing, it's actually looking like a real fight with big strikes at long range. This is what real fights look like until they clinch up.

Having said that, you can tell the difference in MA backgrounds of kickboxers IF you know what to look for. San Shou fighters look different from MT. Some kickboxers have a karate background and others have a TKD background. They have visible differences that a lay person can't see.

WC fighters also have their own characteristics based on how they've trained.
The WC exercises that aren't in contact range give WC fighters a different look from other kickboxers: e.g. drills involving long range strikes and movements.


i think wing chunners have to adjust their training and fighting methods for competition, just like every other art, depending on the venue. bjj, wrestling, boxers, thai boxers everyone changes for mma vs other forms of comp vs self defense. Stances change, strikes change, grappling changes so does the training methods... it comes down to the athlete not the "style"

Yeah. I think you'd have to adjust if you want to compete. To think you can just train as normal to enter a san shou competition would be completely arrogant and ignorant.

You'd have to tailor your training to emphasize the striking and throwing aspects of WC and not the chi sao.

[Edmund]

Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.


What the? If you don't adapt your punch to the fact that you've put 16 oz gloves on you are an idiot..... It makes a big difference. They're not small gloves.



If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK. You can't use WCK technique and have it not look like WCK. We all do turning punches in WCK and they look like turning punches, not boxing punches.


You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch.

These are the skills you're expecting to use in a fight?
I think they won't work.




In other words, you're using the same movements as the kickboxers but you may see "elements" of WCK -- well, that's exactly what all "WCK kickboxers" do: they mainly kickbox using nonWCK movement and occassionally try and perform a WCK movement (a "parrying" pak sao, for example) here and there.


How about you don't try to rephrase Liddel's words because they make too much sense?

He specifically listed his personal differences between himself and other kickboxers (who he actually SPARS with). Since you can't rebutt them, you just ignore.

Everyone is a glorified kickboxer except yourself huh? Rename yourself to HardWork9.

[t_niehoff]

What the? If you don't adapt your punch to the fact that you've put 16 oz gloves on you are an idiot..... It makes a big difference. They're not small gloves.


It doesn't make any difference in terms of the punch (hey, put a 16 oz. glove on and do the punch like you do in the first form -- having any trouble? no). The gloves do make a difference in other things you do, but that wasn't the point. Why WCK people are wearing 16 oz. gloves makes no sense to me, btw -- except that they are doing boxing/kickboxing.



You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch.


No, I'm not kidding. I'm not saying that you turn back and forth throwing punches -- obviously you need to know where, when, how to use the turning punch. Hint: it's not on the outside (why you don't see kickboxers use it).



These are the skills you're expecting to use in a fight?
I think they won't work.


Well, they won't work in kickboxing range (the outside) -- they are contact skills, to be used while attached to your opponent. Since WCK kickboxers fight on the outside, they can't make most of their WCK movement/skills work as they are attached, contact movement/skills.



How about you don't try to rephrase Liddel's words because they make too much sense?

He specifically listed his personal differences between himself and other kickboxers (who he actually SPARS with). Since you can't rebutt them, you just ignore.


That he spars is a good thing; that he spars without using WCK movement won't develop his WCK. Practice kickboxing and you develop kickboxing.

I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing. That misses the point: he's not using WCK movement in his sparring (except throwing in an occassional WCK movement from time to time). When you are not using WCK movement (however your kickboxing looks differently than other kickboxers), you're not doing WCK or using WCK principles.



Everyone is a glorified kickboxer except yourself huh? Rename yourself to HardWork9.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you try to use (fight with) WCK on the outside (in free movement), you won't be able to use WCK movement (and WCK principles). It's the same if you try to use greco movement on the outside -- you can't. That's not where that sort of movement works. WCK movement is inside movement, attached-fighting movement (why we practice that movement while in contact with a dummy or a partner (chi sao)). Try to use it or fight on the outside, and you will need to do kickboxing because kickboxiing movement is what works on the outside, in free-movement.

I thought even an "idiot" and "retard" could grasp that. ;)

[Edmund]

It doesn't make any difference in terms of the punch (hey, put a 16 oz. glove on and do the punch like you do in the first form -- having any trouble? no).


LOL. I think it changes things. 16 oz are big gloves. Trying doing a form is the wrong test. Try fighting with them.




No, I'm not kidding. I'm not saying that you turn back and forth throwing punches -- obviously you need to know where, when, how to use the turning punch. Hint: it's not on the outside (why you don't see kickboxers use it).


I don't agree. They have very little use. Terrible example IMO.



Well, they won't work in kickboxing range (the outside) -- they are contact skills, to be used while attached to your opponent. Since WCK kickboxers fight on the outside, they can't make most of their WCK movement/skills work as they are attached, contact movement/skills.

There are other WC skills that don't involve contact.
You probably don't practice them unlike Liddel who actually spars against other MAists.



I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing.

You're saying he's a glorified kickboxer not a WC person.
It's a lame arg that HW8 uses as well: "You aren't doing WC"

[Liddel]

The issue isn't similarity or dissimilarlity -- comparisons will always produce similarities. The issue is: are you doing what (the movement) you learn and train to do when you fight? If you learn/train movement X (WCK) but then do movement Y when you fight, you're not using your training.

Yes i totally agree...which lends to this...



That's what they all say -- I'm doing things differently than I learn/train but I'm still doing it!

I feel where your argument is stuck T is that the setting of competition is different to my training. so it stands to reason there will be
adaptations :rolleyes: you wont see the same adaptations in a free for all fight. No change necessary. If i train with no pads full contact anything goes...

Same setting = same behaviour.



Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.

Thats a gross assumption bro. I dont throw it out... i marginally adapt it...

One example - The whole reason i use a vertical fist is due to space required to get it inside a guard, if the size of my fist changes so must the whole i need to get it to the same spot... theres a downstream effect with some actions IMO



It "looks" like boxing because you are using boxing movement (technique). And if you don't train boxing, then you are most likely using the movement poorly. You've thrown out your WCK for something else that you don't train.

Yopur getting caught up with what i call (or my use of the word) "similar".
Perhaps if you witnessed me spar youd call it VT for all i know.
Dont get caught up in the wording. The boxing MMAs do in UFC isnt considered typical boxing by my boxing friends they call it brawling...LOL
Perspective is everything.



If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK.

This is worthless IMO, what does VT look like ?
Stick with the fighting should look like your training, cause everybodies VT looks different to me.



If you're fighting on the outside and "parrying" jabs and crosses (where do people come up with these ideas?), you're kickboxing.

LOL BS. My VT contains Pak Sao on the outside and inside, its part of the Dummy actions as well as being in the form. The tell tale sign is the energy, and touch point. Last time i checked boxing doesnt parry like VT and vice versa.

KB doesnt have an exclusive on parrying T :p in fact i think my sparring partners (7 years in KB) dont parry all that good compared to me. :o
Although if i tried it with Ernando houst (sp) the outcome would be differnt :o LOL

We're close in opinion im just not so fixed on what VT is and isnt i think.
We can call what we do VT but in reality we could be worlds apart. State of the style man....:(

DREW

[Liddel]

I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing. That misses the point:

No you miss the point - im an open minded individual who posted from the POV that someone (not me) could assume its KB from just look ing a dn not sparring with me.... But i furthed my POV stating why it is VT.

I personally think i look like VT and more importantly are mirroring what i do in training. If anything in a friendly sparring platform im doing less than what i do in training, my buddies get ****ed when they use kickboxing and side kick my lead leg only to have me stomp a knee and drop them right away. Mook Jong 101 LOL

End of. :D

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch." (Edmund)


***YOU'RE catching on, Edmund. :rolleyes:;)

[t_niehoff]

I feel where your argument is stuck T is that the setting of competition is different to my training. so it stands to reason there will be
adaptations :rolleyes: you wont see the same adaptations in a free for all fight. No change necessary. If i train with no pads full contact anything goes...


My point is that WCK (used in sparring/fighting) will "look" like WCK -- like the movement you see in the forms, in the dummy, in the drills (chi sao) -- or you are not doing WCK, you're doing something else. Moreover, I'm also saying that a person can't move like that in kickboxing 'range', that you can't move like you do in chi sao or in the dummy, in a noncontact, nonattached fighting/sparring environment. At the free-movement, outside range you can kickbox and throw in an occassional WCK "technique" but won't be able to sustain WCK movement on the outside. So, if someone says they are using WCK on the outside, I think they are kidding themselves (and others). On the outside, a person can either kickbox or go "WCK caveman" (straight blast and front kick).



Thats a gross assumption bro. I dont throw it out... i marginally adapt it...

One example - The whole reason i use a vertical fist is due to space required to get it inside a guard, if the size of my fist changes so must the whole i need to get it to the same spot... theres a downstream effect with some actions IMO


The whole reason I use a vertical fist is functional (I NEED to) -- because on the inside you absolutely need to keep your elbow down, and if you have your elbow down your fist will naturally become "vertical". When your fist roates to horizontal, your elbow comes out --and on the inside this means disaster. So when you punch and you keep your elbow down, it is a vertical punch.



Yopur getting caught up with what i call (or my use of the word) "similar".
Perhaps if you witnessed me spar youd call it VT for all i know.
Dont get caught up in the wording. The boxing MMAs do in UFC isnt considered typical boxing by my boxing friends they call it brawling...LOL
Perspective is everything.


It is boxing because they are using boxing movement. Even "modified" for MMA it still "looks" like boxing (and not karate, not WCK, not etc.).

My point is that if you are sparring on the outside it won't be WCK because it can't -- as sustained WCK movement won't work on the outside. This is like me saying if you use it on the outside it isn't greco. You can't modify greco movement to work on the outside, and you can't modify WCK movement to work on the outside. They are both inside, contact, attached methods. And their movement reflects that. You can only use sustained greco or WCK movement on the inside.



This is worthless IMO, what does VT look like ?
Stick with the fighting should look like your training, cause everybodies VT looks different to me.


Everyone's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc. is different yet we can look at it and recognize the art instantly because each discipline has movement that identifies it, and all their practitioners will use a subset of that movement individualized to suit them.



LOL BS. My VT contains Pak Sao on the outside and inside, its part of the Dummy actions as well as being in the form. The tell tale sign is the energy, and touch point. Last time i checked boxing doesnt parry like VT and vice versa.


If someone kickboxex and does occasional WCK movements they are not doing WCK, they are kickboxing and using occasional WCK movements (even if they are movements from the dummy). WCK is using all WCK movement all the time, in everything you do. The WCK movement is sustained throughout the fight. That's doing WCK. The "tell tale" sign isn't the "energy" or the"concept" (that isn't true for boxing or wrestling and it isn't true for WCK): it is the movement, what they are doing. When you look at chi sao/gor sao, for example, you see sustained WCK movement, right? Yet when you see the same people spar, that sustained WCK movement is gone, replaced with other, nonWCK movement and an occasional WCK "technique." Why? Because WCK movement won't "work" at the kickboxing, outside range. So they will out of necessity need to do something else besides WCK movement if they want to fight at that range. Hence the kickboxing (which is the appropriate movement for that range).

As I said, I think kickboxing is great. But it is not WCK.

[KPM]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing! :D

[t_niehoff]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing! :D

Keith, in my view WCK does have "ways" (tactics/movements) to get inside -- there wouldn't be much of a point to having an inside game if you never could get to the inside (and get there safely).

FWIW, I don't think it useful or proper to talk about what WCK was "designed for". We don't and can't know that. We can't even say with any assaurance that WCK was "designed" (my own view is that it probably wasn't designed but evolved along side many similar approaches). What we can say, however, is that WCK is fighting with WCK movement (which can be said of any martial art, and that if we aren't using the movement, we aren't doing the art).

[Liddel]

I understand where your coming from T and i agree to an extent. But hey my KB buddies want to spar with me outside our respective training.

They want to put on the gloves and bang, and i love the experience of mixing it up with other styels so i play by thier rules. Im being honest when i describe the changes i feel i have to make and i guess the biggest thing one can take from that is that im still learning and adapting myself to this platform.

The biggest thing in relation to this discussion is that - the changes i make, i feel are minimal compared to my actions that remain distinctivly Ving Tsun.

That said, i still know that my VT can and does work at longer ranges although i think you hit the nail on the head with the use of the word 'sustained'.

Fighting from longer range is not something i totaly adhere to, its not like i hang out there as my bread and butter strategy...its more like picking and choosing my bridging/ranging techs, i never hang out there i just prefer to time my entries well.

Ive never been one to unintellegently crash someones center just because...

Good chat
DREW

[Edmund]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing! :D

Both of you are missing the point which was "how to adapt to san shou comps".

If you're unwilling to adapt, you won't win. You're stuck on trying to imitate your WC movement rather than using what fits the situation.

[KPM]

Both of you are missing the point which was "how to adapt to san shou comps".

If you're unwilling to adapt, you won't win. You're stuck on trying to imitate your WC movement rather than using what fits the situation.

No. I don't think either of us have missed the point. I think Wing Chun can still be effective in San shou comps. Its just that if you go in doing most of your fighting on the outside then you aren't doing Wing Chun. You have to be willing to bridge in and close with the guy quickly and make your fight on the inside. I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know how workable that is. But if the rules don't allow for that, then the situation created is a false one. You wouldn't be adapting Wing Chun to it, you would be creating something separate....maybe a "Wing Chun-ized Kickboxing", but not straight-up Wing Chun. Now there is nothing wrong with doing a version of Kick-boxing on the outside, and then transitioning to straight-up Wing Chun on the inside. From what Victor has posted it sounds like this is his approach. But don't let yourself think that you are doing "traditional", "original", "authentic" or "old-fashioned" Wing Chun (whatever that is) if you are fighting on the outside. I can't speak for Terence, but I think that was his point.

[Edmund]

Who said San Shou was straight up wing chun? No one!

It's called cross training...

[KPM]

Who said San Shou was straight up wing chun? No one!

It's called cross training...

Original posting that started this thread:

What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a clip from Beijing 2008, where an International Wushu and Sanshou Competition was promoted alongside the Olympic Games

http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

I've never been one for competitions, but I've followed the development of Wushu and it's proposed Olympic status. I can see why so many students would benefit from training to compete in Taolu, Dulien and Sanshou, so isn't the Olympics where we should be looking towards for our future generations?

Sanshou Competitions are already established and present a decent enough platform for Wing Chun fighters to enter, surely?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?


I think San Shou competitions are a wonderful testbed for martial artists.

If the only exposure someone has to a San Shou environment is at a tournament, though... what's the point?

I say, get a few people in class trained up as judges and refs; Get some AIBA (http://www.aiba.org/aiba/licensees.aspx) approved equipment, for maximum safety; and have your own in-house sessions. Dedicate at least one class a week to San Shou sparring, and one class a month to San Shou proper. That way, there's a possibility of actually learning to express the concepts of your own specific art within San Shou rules. No real in-house San Shou means no real knowledge of the environment. That's been the biggest drawback of Wing Chun and other arts... they don't have in-house San Shou. Only pseudo San Shou, often with light contact and no throws.

San Shou is a training tool, not a style in and of itself. Use the tool to train, and you will get results.

[Edmund]

Original posting that started this thread:
..
..


I fail to see where that says San Shou is WC.

It was a question: "What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?"

Andrew N, punchdrunk, myself and others said you need to adapt to compete. No one said San Shou is WC.

You and Terence seem to be trying to justify not cross-training. i.e. You pay lip-service to kickboxing saying it's good skills but when it comes to actually learning some by participating in comps or training with others in that format, you don't want to.

There is long range techniques in San Shou. So what? Learn some.

[KPM]

I fail to see where that says San Shou is WC.

It was a question: "What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?"

Andrew N, punchdrunk, myself and others said you need to adapt to compete. No one said San Shou is WC.

You and Terence seem to be trying to justify not cross-training. i.e. You pay lip-service to kickboxing saying it's good skills but when it comes to actually learning some by participating in comps or training with others in that format, you don't want to.

There is long range techniques in San Shou. So what? Learn some.


Wow Ed! You really need to get over yourself! :eek: The original post asked about WING CHUN in San Shou comps. It didn't ask about adaptations or modifications of Wing Chun. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cross-training and using approachs other than Wing Chun. But if you are doing most of your fighting on the outside....it ain't Wing Chun! That was the point, and hence back to the original question in the post that started the whole thread. I never said San Shou is Wing Chun. Terence never said San Shou is Wing Chun. No one ever said there is anything wrong with kickboxing. But kickboxing is not Wing Chun. Can you follow that logic? :rolleyes:

[Achilles1987]

I don't think Wing Chun Kuen is a sport. It is a supreme cruel martial art. If one of the competitors use Wing Chun completely there would be casualties, it is inevitable...

[Edmund]

Wow Ed! You really need to get over yourself! :eek: The original post asked about WING CHUN in San Shou comps. It didn't ask about adaptations or modifications of Wing Chun. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cross-training and using approachs other than Wing Chun. But if you are doing most of your fighting on the outside....it ain't Wing Chun! That was the point, and hence back to the original question in the post that started the whole thread. I never said San Shou is Wing Chun. Terence never said San Shou is Wing Chun. No one ever said there is anything wrong with kickboxing. But kickboxing is not Wing Chun. Can you follow that logic? :rolleyes:

That's the "logic" that keeps WC people from doing comps.

"It ain't WC" == "Don't want to do it"

[anerlich]

I don't think Wing Chun Kuen is a sport. It is a supreme cruel martial art. If one of the competitors use Wing Chun completely there would be casualties, it is inevitable...

Counterexamples:

Cheung v Boztepe
Draheim v Mazza
Asbel Cancio v Dave Beneteau
David Levicki (I think) v Rickson Gracie
Bruce Lee v Wong Jack Man
Any number of rooftop fights in HK vs Choy Li Fut guys

If WC is so deadly, where are all the corpses buried and why aren't the people involved doing hard time in maximum security?

[anerlich]

But kickboxing is not Wing Chun.

But there is some commonality ... opinions vary on how similar or different the two are, and where the boundaries lie. IMHO you feel WC is more restricted than I do, FWIW.


The original post asked about WING CHUN in San Shou comps. It didn't ask about adaptations or modifications of Wing Chun.

No qualification was made in the original post regarding "pure" or "adapted" in the original post, nor did it place the consideration of Wing Chun plus X, Y and/or Z out of bounds.

It sounds like we all agree WC is of limited value in San Shou comps unless you adapt it or add stuff to it, or forget it and kickbox. BFD.


Wow Ed! You really need to get over yourself!

IMO #1 contender for needing to get over himself is T. Others also perhaps (where's that mirror?), but I'm not sure Edmund is among them ...

[duende]

But there is some commonality ... opinions vary on how similar or different the two are, and where the boundaries lie. IMHO you feel WC is more restricted than I do, FWIW.


+1

If one's understanding is limited to shapes then that is all they are ever going to see.

Knowing the concepts behind so called WC techniques is fundamental to knowing how to express and apply these same concepts to other so called "non-WC" techniques.

There are no restictions... no rules in fighting... just inside the box, and outside the box for the WC expression.

[LoneTiger108]

I think San Shou competitions are a wonderful testbed for martial artists...
... San Shou is a training tool, not a style in and of itself. Use the tool to train, and you will get results.

My thoughts exactly.


It sounds like we all agree WC is of limited value in San Shou comps unless you adapt it or add stuff to it, or forget it and kickbox. BFD.

I guess I was looking for a discussion that asks, what would be a good example of 'Wing Chun Sanshou'?

It's not how we add something, or takeaway, attack inside our outside, it's how we demonstrate skilled Wing Chun in a Sanshou environment.

Regardless of what you face, Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

[anerlich]

what would be a good example of 'Wing Chun Sanshou'?

Perhaps you should Google 'Wing Chun Sanshou'?

I did, but I wouldn't want to blunt the thrill of discovery for you.


Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

Apparently not. We all seem to be at odds about where WC ends and Glorified Kickboxing (TM) or MMA begin.

Also, Wing Chun != Sanshou.

[kung fu fighter]

Here are a couple of clips of what wing chun generally looks like in san shou competition!

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/722344

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/722334

In order to apply wing chun in san shou competition, one would generally have to apply the WC principles and concepts at long range to generate power.The gloves used in these compititions will muffle wc short range power turning your short range strikes into pushes rather than fa jing.

[stonecrusher69]

Who was the one doing W.C.?

[KPM]

Stonecrusher wrote:

Who was the one doing W.C.?

---I couldn't tell in either clip! I guess they have "adapted" their Wing Chun so well to San Sau competition so that it is unrecognizable!



Lonetiger wrote:

Regardless of what you face, Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

---If those clips are supposed to be representative of Wing Chun in San Sau competition, then the answer is....evidently not!!! :eek: But then, since Ed is supposed to be the paragon of virtue, I guess I just need to get over myself! ;)

[stonecrusher69]

Stonecrusher wrote:

Who was the one doing W.C.?

---I couldn't tell in either clip! I guess they have "adapted" their Wing Chun so well to San Sau competition so that it is unrecognizable!



Lonetiger wrote:

Regardless of what you face, Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

---If those clips are supposed to be representative of Wing Chun in San Sau competition, then the answer is....evidently not!!! :eek: But then, since Ed is supposed to be the paragon of virtue, I guess I just need to get over myself! ;)


My point also.Why bother with wing Chun if you can't even use it? just train San Shou which I guess is some kind of generic kung-fu.By the way those fighters stink.

[Edmund]

Stonecrusher wrote:

Who was the one doing W.C.?

---I couldn't tell in either clip! I guess they have "adapted" their Wing Chun so well to San Sau competition so that it is unrecognizable!



Lonetiger wrote:

Regardless of what you face, Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

---If those clips are supposed to be representative of Wing Chun in San Sau competition, then the answer is....evidently not!!! :eek: But then, since Ed is supposed to be the paragon of virtue, I guess I just need to get over myself! ;)

Maybe you should. As should Stonecrusher69.
You're criticising them for not doing WC: "They didn't look like they were doing WC"

The objective is to do San shou. i.e. Learn something via competing with people doing something other than your own style.

The WC person was the guy wearing black in the first clip and the guy wearing red in the second clip. It's obvious because they are the ones who were punching in combinations and trying to walk forward with their punches. They were landing good punches as well and punching far better than their opponents.

Well done to both guys.

[anerlich]

I have to question some of the attitudes on display here.

The guys in those clips appear to be young guys with a few years training. They are out to win the match, not put up some demonstration of stylistic purity. If you think there are better vids of WC in a sporting context, or any other fight against a resisting opponent, please post them.

What, there are no demos of elite level WC guys in sporting contexts? Only those too immature in the style to know you can't actually use WC in sportfighting, or who can't do it well enough so that they have to use cruder, but more high percentage techniques - which actually work?

The supposed "purists" don't seem to fight competitively. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that they don't want to because they know they're going to get their a$$e$ handed to them, and that would derail their money trains, and make them sound like hypocrites when continuing their critical bombast on internet fora.

And the "real Wing Chun is too dangerous" excuse is ridiculous and bloown out of thje water by numerous counterexamples already mentioned.

Hardwork8, not someone I see eye to eye with on issues, posted another competitve clip a while ago of a WC guy against a karateka. His stuff looked a bit more like WC, for those that for some strange reason think this should have been his goal, other than winning.

Props to any WC guy who gets in the ring or has done so in the past. We should get behind these guys, not insult them IMO.

Brickbats to those whose only outlets are chi sao demos and imaginary streetfights demonstrating the pure system. JF Springer's fate should demonstrate where that leads.

[KPM]

Andrew wrote:

The guys in those clips appear to be young guys with a few years training. They are out to win the match, not put up some demonstration of stylistic purity.

---Good point. I think we may have been a bit unfair to them in our criticisms. But then those clips shouldn't be held up as what Wing Chun will look like in San Sau competition, precisely because they are likely beginners and don't have a good Wing Chun foundation.


If you think there are better vids of WC in a sporting context, or any other fight against a resisting opponent, please post them.

---The vids I have seen of Alan Orr's guys in action are much better! The Wing Chun IS recognizable! But I don't have links to clips to post. Surely the guys in your gym look better than the guys in those two clips? I haven't seen you or your comrades in action, but from what I've read I have some faith in the skills of your teacher and the quality of training in your gym. Again, surely you guys do better than the two young Wing Chun fighters in those clips?



And the "real Wing Chun is too dangerous" excuse is ridiculous and bloown out of thje water by numerous counterexamples already mentioned.

---I definetly agree with that! I've always thought that was a bogus argument.


Hardwork8, not someone I see eye to eye with on issues, posted another competitve clip a while ago of a WC guy against a karateka. His stuff looked a bit more like WC, for those that for some strange reason think this should have been his goal, other than winning.

---The goal should be to win, no to look a certain way. But its not a good reflection on one's quality of training if all of your structure and technique goes out the window the minute its put under stress. If you are going to look like some form of kickboxing when you try to fight under stress, then one should just train that way and forget about good Wing Chun structure. One should just concentrate on the "crude high percentage techniques" as you referred to them. Why waste time on traditional Wing Chun training? And I'm not trying to be an a-hole. There might actually be some truth to this line of thought! After all, the guys doing Muay Thai don't worry about looking like they are doing Muay Thai, but they are unmistakeable in the ring. Maybe that's because its all "high percentage" technique?


Props to any WC guy who gets in the ring or has done so in the past. We should get behind these guys, not insult them IMO.

---I agree. And I intended no insult to the young guys in those clips. I was only trying to say that if they are being held up as what Wing Chun should look like in San Sao competition, then just forget the Wing Chun and kickbox!

[Liddel]

Its a little off putting when you realise that the majority of VT out thier isnt for fighting, based on what we see... this isnt a slight on a persons style/lineage rather just peoples approach to training really.

This has to be the obvious reason we dont see lots of vids out there...lots of competent vids anyway :rolleyes:

I mean, Andrews clip of his teacher posted eairlier this year had a part with a ring fight where you could see actions that were not VT and ones that were...it was a good example because hes a mix of styles and if you can determine which actions are which style etc hes doing something right IMHO.

I remember seeing a Bong used to protect against a side kick and he had 16 or 18oz gloves on for crying out loud. Its was VT through and through (for that action)... no denying it.

Its obvious that if you dont see the very basics used which IMO are Tan Pak and Bong, regardless of effectivness..then the level of VT for that practitioner isnt that high.... they are chi sau kings ;)

If your adapting actions like punches etc stepping and range, IME this can help your VT in certain settings but you still have to have the basics at the very least.

Come on guys... :o

DREW

[stonecrusher69]

I myself did not to be overly harsh, but I think if you claim to be a WC fighter and I don't see even the basic punch used( in the first clip) I have to question it.

[anerlich]

I myself did not to be overly harsh, but I think if you claim to be a WC fighter and I don't see even the basic punch used( in the first clip) I have to question it.


Did either guy actually claim to be doing Wing Chun? Maybe it was there somewhere in the text superimposed at the start. No point denigrating claims they don't actually make themselves.

I referreed at a BJJ tourney here on Sunday. Over 200 fighters from Sydney and other parts of the state. There are pics up on the web and no doubts some vids licking around as well. No one's going to say "those guys didn't use BJJ!".

That and we still can't find more than a few WC sportfighters in the whole of modern history, and the ones that do are apparently poor reps of the art. What a parlous state of affairs.


One should just concentrate on the "crude high percentage techniques" as you referred to them. Why waste time on traditional Wing Chun training? And I'm not trying to be an a-hole.

These are legit questions for the WC populace as a whole based on the evidence provided (basically zero). and I'm not trying to be a tool either.

Keith, Liddel. thanks for the good words about my instructor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I mean, Andrews clip of his teacher posted earlier this year had a part with a ring fight..."


***WHAT'S the link to that fight, Andrew? Would like to see that.

[anerlich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwxUSBgrB3I

NB - this was a demo match with a senior student.

Rick has had 37 pro kickboxing matches, > 100 amateur matches, and had demo matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwxUSBgrB3I

NB - this was a demo match with a senior student.

Rick has had 37 pro kickboxing matches, > 100 amateur matches, and had demo matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace.

I have always liked his stuff, you can see the power, the fluidness.
Good stuff.

[Wayfaring]

San shou's format gives high point advantages to throws. Skilled san shou fighters I've seen - mostly Cung Le students - tend to have basic to good striking kickboxing skills, but cross the bridge or space very quickly to clinch range and use judo throws and wrestling takedowns that they have trained well.

The throws score 1-3 points. Those who are not skilled at throws or takedowns in every match I have seen are outscored by those who do. So very basic logic here tells you that those are areas to train to win san shou matches.

Can you adapt WC to san shou matches? Of course you can. However, if you can't throw or take someone down you'll still likely lose, unless you are so good at protecting your bridge nobody can clinch with you. That's hard when you're fresh - harder when you're tired.

A lot of argument here is differences between WC principles and WC movements. In my view WC movements like tan, bong, fuk are tools to accomplish the principles. To keep and attack centerline, you need better tools than a boxer's guard. Sports with padding on the hands affect the tools, so they too must be adapted in a sport situation.

Sometimes the adapted tools with WC principles may look a lot like other skilled sport fighters. Like for instance, the 1 inch difference in a flanking step that works and one that doesn't. Or the 1 inch difference stepping in opening a centerline or not. I watched a Klitschko boxing match where that 1 inch step put him in short power distance up the middle all match, and he easily won. He wasn't doing WC - he's a boxer. But he was illustrating a WC principle more clearly than a whole lot of WC youtube clips.

So I don't know - I guess you could be a semantic a$$ and say that if you're not using strict WC tools you're not doing WC. But honestly, the WC I've learned that helps me the most are the principles which I'm able to use across many cross-training scenarios and sport match scenarios.

Buy hey, YMMV.