What are the differences between the pao ting and Beijing styles of shuia chiao?

[phantom]

I have read that beijing style requires more strength, while Pao ting is faster. Also, beijing style also has some solo routines in it. Are there any other differences betwwen the two? Thanks in advance.

[Three Harmonies]

Overall not really. But you must realize that you are opening a can of worms as about 95% of the people in the US are from Chang's camp, and about 100% of the people on the board are Chang's lineage.
Each teacher focuses on certain things. My teacher was a student of Pu Liu, but he is really, really small. So he focused much more on Kuai Jiao (Fast thows) set up off of punches and kicks. I have trained with many of the SC cats in north America and they all have different approaches. Not good. Not bad. Just different foci. Some relied on a lot of strength and power. While others flowed a bit more.

Cheers
Jake

[lkfmdc]

I did Chang's lineage under Jeng Hsin Ping (a long time ago, I'm old) and now we have a Beijing lineage guy teaching short term in the school. All things considered, pretty similar actually. Maybe, big MAYBE, Beijing is a little more aggressive, Chang's via Jeng's a little more "sneaky" ..... but I would cautiong that it may rather be JENG's flavor, seen different flavors among even Chang lineage

[Three Harmonies]

Exactly my point! Each teacher will bring something different to the table. Why it is okay to have variations on the same theme in MA! Too bad so many people are short sighted and do not understand this!
Jake

[lkfmdc]

heh heh, don't want to de-rail someone's thread, but the reality is, it's all shades of gray. I have my guys doing the Beijing lineage stuff now. They see throws that to them are similar but different than what they have done in my San Da program. To me, actually, all the same, but they focus of course on the differences. Then, to make matters worse, I have to confess to them that what I do is a BLEND of all my influcnes, not just Shuai Jiao or Lama, but Hapkido, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc etc etc. I get more confused every day, old age setting in :p

[Fa Xing]

heh heh, don't want to de-rail someone's thread, but the reality is, it's all shades of gray. I have my guys doing the Beijing lineage stuff now. They see throws that to them are similar but different than what they have done in my San Da program. To me, actually, all the same, but they focus of course on the differences. Then, to make matters worse, I have to confess to them that what I do is a BLEND of all my influcnes, not just Shuai Jiao or Lama, but Hapkido, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc etc etc. I get more confused every day, old age setting in :p

I don't think it's a big deal. There are no styles in fighting anyways.

[lkfmdc]

I don't think it's a big deal. There are no styles in fighting anyways.

another glorified kickboxer! :p:D

yeah, I'd have to say in my tradition, I mean not only my experiences but Chan Tai San's as well, every teacher has a certain flavor.... and combining flavors creates even more diversity, all for the better IMO

[Oso]

heh heh, don't want to de-rail someone's thread, but the reality is, it's all shades of gray. I have my guys doing the Beijing lineage stuff now. They see throws that to them are similar but different than what they have done in my San Da program. To me, actually, all the same, but they focus of course on the differences. Then, to make matters worse, I have to confess to them that what I do is a BLEND of all my influcnes, not just Shuai Jiao or Lama, but Hapkido, Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc etc etc. I get more confused every day, old age setting in :p

sweet, glad I'm not the only one...that's why I end up just grabbing them and showing what I'm trying to say...plus that's more fun for me :D

[sjnation]

Haha, I have to agree and disagree with you guys. From what I've researched and know, Chang's Baoting style is a mix from his Taiji and Xingyi experience as well as a few others but its a more practical approach in terms of actual combat and fighting usage. But it developed into a more just Shuaijiao competition later on when Sanda or Sansou wasn't as popular in the United States.

As for Baoting Kuaijiao, or just Kuaijiao, I'm not sure of its origins or the true meaning of its name, but word for word it just means "fast feet". It comes from Baoting from what I understand but I don't know if its a substyle or just an emphasis on quick setups for throws and takedowns because I don't think there is a style called Manjiao or Gangjiao which would be "slow feet" or "strong feet"which would counter or supplement the other style.

The Beijing style comes from more of a history of competition, demonstrations, and the entertainment part of Chinese Shuaijiao (Shanpuying Era). I think it is more formalized and a more uniform style in terms of how training and practicing is setup and how (i think) almost all possible moves techniques are termed and defined. But the Beijing style is mostly for competition usage as they do not focus on self-defense, kicking, punching, etc. The throws, yeah you can arguably say you can use in a real life situation, but they do not teach those parts of the application. You often won't see as many of these fighters transition into Sanda or Sansou fighters compared to those that learn Chang's Baoting style because that is how it is setup.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I have come to understand so far. There aren't many books on just Shuaijiao so it's hard to try and put everyone's story together.

[Fa Xing]

another glorified kickboxer! :p:D

yeah, I'd have to say in my tradition, I mean not only my experiences but Chan Tai San's as well, every teacher has a certain flavor.... and combining flavors creates even more diversity, all for the better IMO

LOL. It's sad when people call us that, especially when they bull**** things with "too deadly to spar" comments. I've told people who act like that, that we can fight and I won't care if he "kills" me but they never take me up on it.

If you don't spar how do you know whether or not you are okay with getting hit in the face? Do they think attackers are just going to follow along like the drills you do in class? C'mon!

[Three Harmonies]

SJ Nation (remind me of your name again?) - :confused:
You said basically the same thing I did ;) Everyone brings there own experiences to the table. As for Kuai Jiao's origins I have no clue. Commonly used term though. Though I stand to be corrected, but the versions I have seen are the same hanzi for Shuai Jiao, no?!?! Makes sense though, fast feet to enter as most of the throws are self defense based (all I mean is not so dependent on grabbing a garment, and often set up off of strikes / kicks), so therefore one would have to enter quickly, and incorporate their footwork / leg positioning into the throw.

But what do I know :p

Cheers
Jake

[lkfmdc]

The "jiao" in Kuai Jiao is "throw" not "feet"...

No question Chang's SJ had Tai Chi and Hsing Yi influences (also Lo Han) and because of Chang's profession(s) he was very application/fighting minded... but it was still Shuai Jiao, and the techniques the Beijing people are doing "for sport" are still pretty much the same.

[sjnation]

SJ Nation (remind me of your name again?) - :confused:

Whatsup Jake, it's Emeric. yeah, i'm not too sure on all the different styles and such but its just more of a difference in subtle emphasis on each system. From the forms and applications learning part between of Beijing and Chang's style is more obvious than others but I'm still trying to understand the bigger picture.

I'm reading some good input here though.

[YouKnowWho]

I believe the difference is:

- 撕 Si (tear apart) - not commonly used in Beijing style.
- 崩 Beng (elbow crack) - not allowed in Beijing style.
- 捅 Tong (punch to shoulder) - not allowed in Beijing style.

[mawali]

Chang was essentially a shuaijiao adept who saw that 'modern' forms lacked any martial intent. Through his experience he could/would regularly point out problem with other styles!
He did learn taijiquan and xingi later due to his various teaching engagements at local academies and through exchanges with other masters was able to incorporate martial structure to the well known performance arts, as many systems were merging what we know as wushu today!

Many contemporaries of shuaijiao were Mongol, Manchu or Hui.

[Three Harmonies]

YKW
What does "not allowed" mean? Competitions are competitions, regardless of style, no?
Emeric,
True dat! Subtle differences are all I have seen, but I am far from an expert!

Jake

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know, both "elbow crack" and "punch" (only to the shoulder) are considered illegal moves in Chinese SC tournament today, except in Baoding local tournaments. If you get any SC book that's published in China in the past 20 years, you may not be able to find those 3 moves in there.

It's the flavor difference. Baoding SC guys don't like to stay in any clinching situation (dead lock) too long and like to break it apart and take advantage during the breaking.

[Three Harmonies]

So are those techniques allowed in US Shuai comps?

What you describe is general enough to be anyone's strategy. Not sure the qualifies as a difference between subsystems.

Jake :)

[YouKnowWho]

Those moves are allowed in the US because most of the SC judges are from Baoding style.

Baoding is only 80 miles southwest of Beijing. People travel between these 2 cities quite often. The difference is only the flavor on their:

- Fight posture.
- Clinching breaking strategy.
- Circle running.
- Some moves are more popular than others.

Other than these, there are not that much difference.


while Pao ting is faster.
Fast hand wrestling means "the moment that you grab, the moment that you attack". This approach has PRO and CON. The PRO is "you don't give your opponent enough time to get ready." The CON is "You may not be 100% ready either when you attacking". In other words, Baoding SC guys like to create chance and take risk, and don't like to wait for chance. Again, any Beijing SC guy may also use this strategy, so the difference is in general and not by individual.

[sjnation]

Oh, I'm kind of getting it now but now because i remember that phrase "one you're touched you get thrown" from a book, I forgot which one. but I'm a little confused on what's the difference between Baoding Kuaijiao and just Baoding styles of Shuaijiao.

[YouKnowWho]

Kuaijiao (fast hands wrestling) = Baoding style SC.

[sjnation]

Good to know. What are the differences in Mongolian and Tianjin and other styles of Shuaijiao? Or are they mostly subtle or just because it evolved from a different region they named it that way?

[YouKnowWho]

Mongolian SC - 1 round decide the winner. No time limit. No leg grabbing are allowed. Depends on more strength then skill. SC jacket are made of leather and hard to grab.

Tianjin SC - it has pretty much been integrated with Beijing SC in that past 50 years. They like to move their body forward and backward (switch between 4-6 stance to 3-7 stance) more than others.

Yi SC - Very similar to western wrestling. You win by making your opponent's shoulder to touch the ground.

SanXi SC - Like to use single or double legs shooting. There have 36 (or 48) different ways to shoot to the leg.

Beijing SC - Use very low stance.

Baoding SC - Like to run in circle. Punch and joint locking are allowed. Like to break opponent's grips before attacking. Like to create opportunity than to wait for opportunity.

[Three Harmonies]

Can you elaborate on the Shanxi style of attacking the legs? I am curious how they get 48 variations of the single and double leg takedown!?
Where is Yi SC out of?

You know what would be great..... a side by side view of the various styles take on a handful of techniques. I am not sure anything like that is out there, but just saying it would be great to see that!

Thanks John!
Jake

[sjnation]

I agree, that would be pretty interesting to see a side by side comparison of the different styles/rules. All I've really been exposed to is the tiajin/beijing, mongolian and boading styles. I wish there were more books on Shuaijiao.

Emeric

[YouKnowWho]

Yi is one of the minority Chinese race and they live in Yunnan province (Stone Forest area).

The SanXi SC can be seen in this clip:

http://johnswang.com/sc14.wmv (starting from 2.35).

As far as how many ways that you can execute the leg shooting, I assume you can throw your opponent

- forward,
- backward, and
- side way.

The contact points can be:

- Both hands on the outside of your opponent's legs.
- One hand inside and another hand outside.
- One hand in front and one hand on the waist.
- One hand behind the ankle.
- Both hand behind the ankle.
- ...

I try to find that book but so far I still have not found that book yet.

Since I don't know Beijing, Tinjing, Mongolian, Yi, and SanXi styles SC, I cannot give any comparison but general difference.


I wish there were more books on Shuaijiao.
David C. K. Lin's Combat SC book will be available at the end of this year. My 1st combat SC book "Head Lock - How to grow a tree from root" will be available early next year. Since you asked, I just take this advantage to have some free advertisement for David's book and my book.

[Three Harmonies]

By all means please do keep us informed of both of your books! I for one am REALLY looking forward to them!!
Thanks John!
Jake

[MightyB]

Yi is one of the minority Chinese race and they live in Yunnan province (Stone Forest area).

The SanXi SC can be seen in this clip:

http://johnswang.com/sc14.wmv (starting from 2.35).



Seriously- what movie is this from? I want to see it.

[Three Harmonies]

King of Shuai Chiao is the name of it.
Jake

[sjnation]

The SanXi SC can be seen in this clip:

http://johnswang.com/sc14.wmv (starting from 2.35).

That's a great clip. I should watch that whole series.

[YouKnowWho]

http://johnswang.com/sc_king/sc2.wmv

In this SC King movie (the only SC DVD so far), the SC teacher said:

- Beijing SC is famous in "鉤子 Gou Zi - hooking".
- Tinjing SC is famous in "别子 Bie Zi - blocking".
- Ginnan SC is famous in "揣 Chuai - bowing" (there is no Ginnan SC but just for the movie).

but those moves are all commonly used in all styles. Even the "left and right twist and spring - attack one leg and when your opponent shifts weight off that leg then attack another" used by that SanXi SC guy in the early part of the last clip, that move is also commonly used by the Baoding style.

If you understand Chinese you can hear that in this clip, the SC teacher said, "In the north there is fancy butterfly, in the south there is ..." He mentioned how the nickname "fancy butterfly" came from. It's very interest to me at least.