Kung Fu bothers me

[Ray Pina]

Up in NY two weeks ago, my brother's jiu-jitsu coach (whom I've met and trained with once) offered for me to train with him for free while I was in town.

Renzo Gracie academy charged me $20 a day. I was there from 9a.m. to 9p.m. Mon through Sat.... had my own locker the whole time. Access to awesome training, free play and showers. Even a laundry service for my gi and towel.

Wanted to visit my Chinese master, someone who I've always admired, drove home after training for a few years.... his daughter/manager charged me $215 (the monthly rate) to attend a single night's class. Obviously I wasn't wanted. Obviously I passed on the offer.

Logged onto Empty Flower when I got back, just to see what's a going in the world of IMA... someone posted who let me back (I was barred for posting truths over two years ago) and instantly kicked out again.

No doubt Chinese Kung Fu finds safety hiding in its own little world. Everyone's a master as long as they don't have to put up.

It's a sad state of affairs.

[TenTigers]

don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Ray.
Those are just two people, two incidents, two experiences.
Also, from what you shared with us about your experiences with these people, if I recall, you had some serious issues with them, and vice-versa.
People are individuals, with their own experiences, their own views, and their own realities. As you yourself have yours. Not everyone everyone who trains in TCMA shares the same thinking.

[Ray Pina]

That goes without saying.

I wasn't surprised by what happened with my master.... he's the one who taught me, if there's someone you don't want to train quote them a crazy price. It's better then saying no. That is just one of the many useful things he has taught me.

I love my master. He taught me very valuable life changing lessons and technique.

I am disappointed that I was treated that way by people I've spent a lot of time with and helped any way I could. Not to mention that it was rude and unprofessional.

Empty Flower.... I could care less other than losing the ability to point out how ridiculous most of those people are.

But now that I'm thinking about it... I've had continual bad experiences with kung fu: countless waisted training hours lion dancing to pad teacher's pockets. Disqualified from a chi sau event for "too hard of contact"seconds after the head judge said my "arm flipping didn't count" because it had no power. I have video of this. ... apparently what looked powerless packed a decent punch. And then disqualified for head contact against a guy who weighed more than 45lbs than me. Who kept charging in.

You are right, the problem is I don't think like most CMA practicianers. I believe you train martial arts to forge yourself into a warrior. And there just aren't that many in CMA circles.

There's lots of talk of honor... but what is it based upon?
There's lots of talk of courage.... but what's that based upon?
There's lots of talk of superior methods... but what's that based upon?

Its a lot of talk. I've only met one man that impressed me to have something unique and valuable. And he's a crazy, paranoid old Chinese man God bless his soul. I wish him and his style well. They're going to need it after he's gone. He's the last of his kind.

[Fa Xing]

That goes without saying.

I wasn't surprised by what happened with my master.... he's the one who taught me, if there's someone you don't want to train quote them a crazy price. It's better then saying no. That is just one of the many useful things he has taught me.

I love my master. He taught me very valuable life changing lessons and technique.

I am disappointed that I was treated that way by people I've spent a lot of time with and helped any way I could. Not to mention that it was rude and unprofessional.

Empty Flower.... I could care less other than losing the ability to point out how ridiculous most of those people are.

But now that I'm thinking about it... I've had continual bad experiences with kung fu: countless waisted training hours lion dancing to pad teacher's pockets. Disqualified from a chi sau event for "too hard of contact"seconds after the head judge said my "arm flipping didn't count" because it had no power. I have video of this. ... apparently what looked powerless packed a decent punch. And then disqualified for head contact against a guy who weighed more than 45lbs than me. Who kept charging in.

You are right, the problem is I don't think like most CMA practicianers. I believe you train martial arts to forge yourself into a warrior. And there just aren't that many in CMA circles.

There's lots of talk of honor... but what is it based upon?
There's lots of talk of courage.... but what's that based upon?
There's lots of talk of superior methods... but what's that based upon?

Its a lot of talk. I've only met one man that impressed me to have something unique and valuable. And he's a crazy, paranoid old Chinese man God bless his soul. I wish him and his style well. They're going to need it after he's gone. He's the last of his kind.

Amen! And some CMA people wonder why the younger generations are turning towards things like MMA or Krav Maga....

[Ray Pina]

It's because this new generation didn't grow up with Kung Fu movies and Ninjas like mine did. That nostalgia isn't there.

Kids today aren't dumb. They see jiu-jitsu guys doing jiu-jitsu. They see boxers boxing, wrestlers wrestling and fencers fencing. It's all open, public and competitive.... the competition fuels progress. The openness cuts out the BS.

You either tap someone or get tapped. No one cares about lineage. Its the ability to produce results. That's what matters.

CMA training? Most of it more closely resembles Chinese opera training to me, right down to the swinging of fake, prop weaponry.

Of course there will be a million Kung Fu players who will take offense and defend their training ... using words over the internet. All these schools in all these cities in all these countries and not one impressive Kung Fu fighter? Am I too believe that Kung Fu draws a 100 percent pacifist group? Or perhaps that their training methods and technique fall so far below today's combat standard that they either do not dare or qualify to compete at the highest levels?

[Lucas]

The problem is that, from what I've seen, for the most part you're right.

especially with MMA being such a big entertainment sport now. its on tv....kids sure as hell dont miss that.

when you see a couple of very serious MMA fighters go for 3 rounds toe to toe and display some awesome skills, and conditioning....its hard to be impressed by a kungfu form. kids now see real fights, real fighters. thats what the kids are looking up to, thats who they want to become.

its not about bruce lee anymore.

I feel there are some good kungfu schools out there that are doing well. sanshou is getting more popular. that is the area i think we will be seeing a major development in the kungfu world from.


cross training. big time element. the more kungfu guys that start to learn the ground, the wider their field of vision will become.

no body wants to hear it but i'll say it. if kungfu wants to prove to anyone that it is a viable form of martial arts, it needs to put up at the same places everyone else is putting up. against the same guys everyone else is putting up against.

sanshou is great. lets you see a guys abilities...but its just to un known.

you tell your average 14 year old kid you practice kungfu, chances are hes gonna say "kungfu sucks you need to do mma"

and in truth, i do believe that most kungfu guys are just plain scared to enter the cages. not all mind you (some do), but most are. they hide behind things like "a kungfu man doesnt need to fight in the cage to prove anything to himself" its all a big puff of smoke if you ask me.

EVERY fighter needs to go where the top of the game is if he wants to claim superiority, and prove it with his body.

im glad more sanshou guys are crossing over to mma.

[Lucas]

A lot of the 'real kungfu fighters' are the guys that are taking what they have learned after years of cma practice and are walking way with it. using it in the realm of the rest of the world. not allowing themselves to be closed off and quarentined from the rest of the MA community.

kungfu material is just as viable as any other martial art in a fight. but you cant just hide behind your own walls and play with yourself all day and think your art will survive the scrutiny the rest of the world puts towards all MA.

you can be the best long distance runner in the world, but no one will believe you until you prove it by BEATING the best that is known.

[uki]

you can be the best long distance runner in the world, but no one will believe you until you prove it by BEATING the best that is known.but in the end it doesn't really matter what others think... being the best at something doesn't mean you need to prove it.

[Lucas]

this is true.

but in the same light, if it doesnt matter people shouldnt get offended and feel the need to defend.

generally that comment you quoted tho was directed to the "superior methods" kungfu guys. the "to deadly for the ring" kind of guys. and all the guys that mouth box with the best but have yet to gain a title in the realm with the rest of the tough guys sweating and bleeding for a mariad of reasons.

i dont compete, i do what i do for my own reasons. the major reason being love.

but on the fighting aspect of the martial arts community. the only way to show results is to actually fight.

[unkokusai]

... being the best at something doesn't mean you need to prove it.




Um, yes it does. Otherwise you are just believing it, claiming it, bull****ting it, but it is not so.

[uki]

Um, yes it does. Otherwise you are just believing it, claiming it, bull****ting it, but it is not so.if you don't claim to be the best at something... it doesn't really matter if you are. people who get bent out of shape over the notions of egotistical urges to prove ones worth leads to competition... competition only satisfies the ego. the best fighters do not fight... they don't have to.

[B-Rad]

If they don't fight then they're not fighters. They're something else :p

[Lucas]

If they don't fight then they're not fighters. They're something else :p

I agree with this. While I have fought in the past. I dont currently, and dont really feel like it anymore.

I like to spar but thats as far as I want to go any more.

I would have called myself a fighter about 8-10 years ago when I used to look for that sort of thing. but now i just call myself a martial artist.

I practice because I enjoy it. Its great exersize. Promotes excellent mental clarity and focus. Gives me the ability to defend myself if I need to. Its a great hobby. But since I dont competitively fight, i dont consider myself a fighter.

imo all fights are a competition. even if your fighting for your life. its you competing against another man. Hell solo rock climbing is you competing against nature.

ego flows up and down among the scales of competition of course, but its not always the only factor involved.

[Ray Pina]

I don't think one needs "to fight." The notion of "fighting" actually goes against all the Kung Fu principles I've learned. Don't go fight, go beat somebody.... that's my master.

Thing is, it's not that easy. Especially if you want to compare against others who are also training.


With that said, I don't need to see Kung Fu players lined up outside an MMA cage. What I need to see are fewer guys walking around all proud with medals for doing drunken forms and then bailing out. I need to see headgear and boxing gloves and the ability to jam a real attack.

The real point of my first post was to demonstrate the remarkably different attitude between kung fu (prone to talk) and jiu-jitsu (no talk, all doing)..... one is completely open, welcoming all comers. The other is exclusive, which sounds more high-level, but its based on insecurities. They don't even want you questioning them on their message board (talking to you EmptyFlower).

Anyone can walk into Renzo Gracies and offer a challenge and on any given day there are 5 to 10 professional fighters in there who would be willing to beat some a$$. Most purple belts and up would gladly do the same. Everyone knows this, which is why it doesn't happen and also why its a very cool, egoless vibe in the place. Everyone is soaked in sweat. Everyone is either training hard or sitting against the wall exhausted from training hard.

I love it.

[Vash]

Show me a martial art that doesn't have ANY practitioners who talk bigger than their cup size, and I'll call you a liar and sleep with your wife.

[MightyB]

The real point of my first post was to demonstrate the remarkably different attitude between kung fu (prone to talk) and jiu-jitsu (no talk, all doing)..... one is completely open, welcoming all comers. The other is exclusive, which sounds more high-level, but its based on insecurities.



I saw this when I joined Judo- basically you can walk into any club, people recognize the rank, and you can play. What's even cooler is that a lot of clubs will host guests- meaning that you don't have to pay if you aren't a regular because most judo players want to randori with people that aren't in their clubs. They welcome the challenge. The thing that most non judo/ non jiu jitsu people don't get is that Randori/Sparring isn't a fight. It's a test done in a friendly manner because it's not cool to hurt your training partners. So yeah- you walk in- people naturally want to spar against you- but it's in a friendly way---

For all of their self proclamed humility- too many kung fu people have too big of an ego to enjoy this type of inter-club learning and partnerships.

[Three Harmonies]

You are acting a bit entitled don't you think?
Jake

[Ray Pina]

Show me a martial art that doesn't have ANY practitioners who talk bigger than their cup size, and I'll call you a liar and sleep with your wife.

BJJ, Thai boxing, Judo, even TKD has found its way into today's top fighting venues. They have earned the right to talk... who hasn't been known to stretch a fish tail here and there?

Kung Fu talks as if it has battled its way out of jaws of Megladon, when in fact it remains a guppy barely afloat in its own secluded fish bawl.

[TenTigers]

it is extremely hard to find good trainng buddies who aren't azzoles. Whether it's throwing, grappling,joint-locking, or striking, finding someone who can adjust their levels, intensity, and still maintain control, and be totally egoless, is a rare find indeed. I am lucky-my grappling partners all have over thirty years in MA and have passed that ego stage long ago. My SPM teacher and bros all have thirty-plus years as well. Sure, there is the occaisional oops factor, but on the whole, we can play with each other without fear.
I have met some great players over the years-some NHB fighters that allowed me to roll with them, some Greco-Roman guys who let me roll with them, Peter Chema once brought over his heavyweight shuai-jiao champion-the guy was like Andre the Giant, and we played together. Each one of those guys could have squashed me like a bug. They had skill, size, strength, but they had zero ego.
Then at a Wally Jay seminar, I partnered off with some 30 something Sandan, who gave me a fractured foot from an ankle lock. Azzole.

[lkfmdc]

You are acting a bit entitled don't you think?
Jake

I have a ton of students who relocated but come back in town from time to time and want to train. I usually ask for a "donation" just so they show some respect for the gym but I'd never expect someone to pay a month's tuition for one night's training

[Ray Pina]

MightyB has hit the mark exactly.

It's not really a sense of entitlement. It's recognition of like.

Last night a blue belt from Cornell, NY somehow found my coach while on vacation down here and trained with us last night. He's coming back today for no gi. My coach forgot to charge him. No big deal. We all had fun and got to play with a stranger. It was positive.

As far as entitlement, I don't know what to call what I thought should have happened when I called my master of several years and told him, "Master, I'm in NY for a couple days. Can I come by and train?"

His response: "What do you want to come here for. You're a grabber now."

[TenTigers]

BJJ, Thai boxing, Judo, even TKD has found its way into today's top fighting venues. They have earned the right to talk... who hasn't been known to stretch a fish tail here and there?

Kung Fu talks as if it has battled its way out of jaws of Megladon, when in fact it remains a guppy barely afloat in its own secluded fish bawl.

Kung-Fu seems to attract alot of people who should up their dosage.

[lkfmdc]

Kung-Fu seems to attract alot of people who should up their dosage.

somewhere in the past 10 to 15 years, I don't know exactly when, what or HOW, but in the past decade or so something has changed CMA.... all for the worst IMHO

[wiz cool c]

I can relate to this. I have a story of my own. I get to Beijing over two years ago I want to study Shuai Jiao and Bagua. So first I search out the shuai Jiao, cause it is slightly more important to me. So I find a place to train the teachers the nicest guy in the world, student where young but good kids who train hard and are nice and humble.

So when it is time to check out the Bagua school, I have already decided to do privet lessons cause I know the silliness that goes on in the Kung Fu world. So what happens I get to the class they are all foreign students. Within 20 minutes I am talking to a student who does Xing Yi he is telling me Xing Yi' s for killing. I watch him do his form with a bad ass face on. Walk around the school with his chest up then work a partner application with somebody. So the drill is to do this application off a jab. So the Xing Yi killer is doing a half ass jab from very far distance not allowing the guy to work his technique cause he is too far away. Then the Xing Yi killer say to the guy. You'd be dead by now. His jab wouldn't have hurt an 8 year old girl and he was too far away for the guy to practice his technique. Also I know for a fact this school never spars.

Back to the the Chinese wrestling. Guys train hard all the time nicest people to be around. NO tough talk just straight up hard training and good attitude.

[unkokusai]

Back to the the Chinese wrestling. Guys train hard all the time nicest people to be around. NO tough talk just straight up hard training and good attitude.




Having to actually do what you are training tends to have that effect.

[unkokusai]

His response: "What do you want to come here for. You're a grabber now."



What an *******.

[unkokusai]

if you don't claim to be the best at something... it doesn't really matter if you are. people who get bent out of shape over the notions of egotistical urges to prove ones worth leads to competition... competition only satisfies the ego. the best fighters do not fight... they don't have to.



Bull**** that is, Obi-Wan. Out of your ass you must pull your head, yes.

[lkfmdc]

I missed the "grabber" quote, dear lord :rolleyes:

I will never get this.... I've said it a million times already, my sifu went to study western boxing and Japanese Judo.... I've trained and continue to train with others all the time. We just got a former OSU wrestling coach in the gym!!! New toys :D

I've taken my guys to seminars by Muay Thai's Kansak, CHute Boxe's Rua brothers, Erik Paulson, etc ... so they can be exposed to more stuff and to open their minds

I can only really come to one conclusion when I hear stuff like this, raging insercurity and lack of faith in what you do

[Fa Xing]

I just think there's so much bull****, and I'll be honest I've contributed in the past but not anymore. I think some people just don't want to work hard, and they don't like things flying at their face or getting hit. I see it thewith newbies that start training at the school I'm at all the time. People are just afraid.

However, they usually get better as long as you bring them in slowly with light sparring drills, and such. Yet, if the idea is fostered that if you do these forms, solo or otherwise you will be deadly. Definitely too deadly to spar. It's absolute BS 100%.

I've challenged some of these guys to a match who thought they were too deadly, and told them that I didn't care if they thought they would kill me. Not one ever took me up on it.

[Ray Pina]

No one likes or wants to get hit.

Proper training takes the newbie and starts to form attributes and qualities that soon have the student seeking out higher levels of challenges. When I was teaching my problem was explaining to guys why they had to wait a few more months before they could go 100% live against some of the more experienced guys. They felt so good about what they drilled they couldn't comprehend that they could get into trouble from what they haven't trained yet.

Good training fosters the ability, will and desire to mix it up.

[JGTevo]

It's not just kung fu unfortunately. I had a buddy who did boxing for awhile and thought he was some tough man cause he knew how to throw a jab cross, and a hook. He always talked about how he beat so many guys in so many fights so one day I got a chance to spar with him a bit. Even though I went really easy and didn't even use hard contact, just slapped him around, It was sad. But still, the ego continued because he knew I had much more experience in boxing, so thus that must be the reason I beat him. So one day I get him to spar with my cousin who weighs 5lbs less than him, and has no experience in boxing whatsoever and I tell them both to go all-out with gloves and headgear on. The big-ego guy got destroyed. For a full minute he got smashed and thrown around until he had to quit because he couldn't take it anymore.

And ya know what he learned? Nothing. He still has the ego and talks big about his boxing abilities, but now when I ask him to spar or train with me he won't dare, lol.

[unkokusai]

So the moral of the story is that you are tough.... :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

too bad your teacher is a bit of a wad there ray, but it happens.

as for internet site memberships, well, it is pretty safe to say that that has little if anything at all to do with kungfu.

perspective mang. :)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting posts all around. Here's what I've thought about on this.

Pre-industrial CMAs/JMAs were frequently being tested, applied, and modified in military, police, and self-defense situations. Their historic reputations are well-deserved.

They also found a unique place in certain spiritual practices, with spiritual seekers using combat as a means to practice and develop awareness. Again, well deserved reputations.

CMAs did not, however, adapt to the post-industrial sports world as fast or as well as they could have. Perhaps the masters, traumatized by the cultural revolution, struggled too long to preserve the old ways. Or maybe the sports initiatives put forward by visionary Martial Artists were co-opted by a government with no interest/understanding in the market values of such sports. Or maybe the sports initiatives put forward by CMA proponents outside of Asia weren't strong enough, since they had to compete with pre-existing combat sports ranging from boxing and fencing (old school,) to Judo, Tae Kwon Do and Muay Thai (post-WWII Asian exports with US Army backing), to BJJ and MMA (contemporary combat sports.)

The two true CMA sports that we see today are Wu Shu and San Shou/Da. Both are valid, and both have wonderful, unpretentious athletes. Both are relative latecomers, though, and the market value of these sports is still very low. San Shou/Da in particular seems to have been surpassed by MMA, and I doubt that it will recover. Still, if someone trains at a school that focuses on at least Wu Shu or San Shou, the experience can and generally should be a positive, fulfilling one.

That leaves a load of CMA (and JMA) schools that have no connection to sports whatsoever. For the sake of argument, let's assume that a portion of these schools are spiritually oriented, another portion are health oriented, a third are traditional, and the rest are, well, I'll get to that in a moment.

The spiritually oriented schools may very well focus on the idea of warriorship. The difference between warriors and fighters is an often misunderstood one, and is probably deserving of its own thread. In brief, a school that trains warriors may not necessarily train competitors, yet still develop practitioners of firm character, grounded in realism and practicality.

The health oriented schools make no effort to even imply fighting skill. They exist in the same vein as Yoga or Aerobics. I'd say that a quality health-based CMA school is less deluded about fighting ability than your average tae-bo, boxercise or aerobic kickboxing class. Training with these people is like stretching or running with a group of friends. No real pretenses, just lots of fun. I admit, though, that this is probably the second smallest category of CMA school.

The traditional schools are dwindling quickly, and have been for a long time. I'd say that a travelling MA researcher would be lucky to find one true traditional instructor every 5-10 years. My definition of a true traditional instructor is one that trains in the old ways and is not afraid to demonstrate, test, or share his/her skills in the presence of an unbiased audience. In 10 years of training and travelling, I've met 2. One's a Chen guy, the other's a Wing Chun guy. Like I said, they're few and far between.

This leaves us with a load of CMA/JMA schools that are not sports based, not spiritually based, not explicitly health based, and by the above definition, definitely not traditional. I'd go as far as to say that the MAJORITY of CMA/JMA schools fall into this McDojo/McKwoon category. The shenanigans found in these schools are amazingly varied, yet invariably related to the ideas of power, control, and money. They abuse traditions to attract a gullible public, and continue to rely on the historic reputations of their arts, without ever thinking they ought to add to them.

I've said nothing new in this post. I just think it's important to remember that 95% of the problems with the Martial Arts are school related, not art related. As long as a school is honest with itself about what goes on there, I don't think there's any need to bash it.

CSP

[TenTigers]

I don't think your previous teacher was being a "wad," or whatever, Ray.
I think he still remembers that you were going on and on, all over the internet, on different forums, how you felt that his students could not fight, and that you were the only one who could.
Sure, you were going out and fighting, and testing yourself, and you felt that your doing so was representing your Sifu's teachings, even if it was without his approval. And yes, your teacher was and will always be a fighter.

But, your words and comments about his students whether you agree or disagree, whether you like it, or not, are saying that HE is not a good teacher, as a teacher is only as good as the students he produces.

What you did was in his mind, character a$$asination. He in turn, reacted accordingly.
It may all be water under the bridge for you, but not for those you have hurt and offended. In this case Ray, you can't go home again.

[David Jamieson]

just for the record, you can say ass tt. :)

[TenTigers]

***!
hey, you're right!
***!!!!!!***!!!!
***!!!



***!
(this is fun)

[JGTevo]

So the moral of the story is that you are tough.... :rolleyes:

You missed it entirely... the moral of the story is that delusions of grandeur aren't limited to kung fu. Some people will do anything to protect their blown up egos.

[unkokusai]

Some people will do anything to protect their blown up egos.




So it seems................

[unkokusai]

And yes, your teacher was and will always be a fighter.
.




How do you know?

[Ray Pina]

Wonderful post Xiao3 Meng4!

For the record. Kung Fu bothers me but it has a special place in my heart, always will.

I never said my master was a bad teacher. On the contrary, he imparted a lot of information and body memory into my thick skull. My classmates: loved and respected each and every one of them.

My issue was coming back after fights I lost and being reprimanded for all these mistakes I made.

Can't fault them for not supporting my dream. Can't fault them for not offering to be in my corner, literally. I can fault them for talking ****.

Let me make it clear that Master Chan is a true warrior in its fullest sense. A great man with great technique. But if you're not willing to go out or prepare to send one of your students to go, you have NO RIGHT to discuss the faults of BJJ, TKD or any other combative that you FEEL is low level.

There are tons of people pouring their hearts and souls into their training and putting it on the line. It's waaaaaaayyyyyy too easy to be the king of NYC within the confines of your small training hall in which your word is law and your students too.... gullible? ... to question such outlandish claims. It's actually promoting a dishonorable mindset.

He is my master and always will be. I love and respect him. But I tell my own flesh-and-blood father he's full of **** when he's talking out of his a$$. I tell him he's wrong for throwing a receipt on the ground moments after leaving the diner. And why. Not for the pollution. For not being a man and taking responsibility for all his actions. Regardless of how small.

An eager martial artist full of love who wants to come see your technique... and you turn him away?

[Ray Pina]

I've learned some wonderful things from Kung Fu.... first among them, sticking. Thank you Wing Chun and Southern Mantis.

I learned power generation and structure. Big up to Hsing-I. I love it. Wish I learned Ba Gua's footwork. That was what I wanted and would have been willing to pay $800 for a private lesson for. If I would have gotten to at least see my master.

Truth is though. I get to train and incorporate all of those principles every single day training jiu-jitsu. Kung Fu doesn't have exclusivity, patents on that technology. Its just those things are a given, acquired naturally in the training. All my one year BJJ training partner white belts can stick, read, collapse, press, left. sweep, name it.

Truth is, I've never seen a kung fu school train hard enough to be competitive. I don't consider what Coach Ross does or San Da "kung FU"... I have too much respect for it.

It was time for me to leave and be among fighters. Train with fighters. Hang with fighters. Training harder then ever and I've brought all the stuff I like with me.

[MysteriousPower]

Ray,
Your generalizations are based off the fact that your feelings got hurt. Come on, man. That's the real reason for this particular rant. Why can't you just say that it bothered you that your old master wouldn't welcome you back with open arms? Instead you use that as evidence that kung fu schools are closed off.

If you got more involved with your feelings instead of being so disconnected from them it might solve some of your issues.

[Fa Xing]

Ray,
Your generalizations are based off the fact that your feelings got hurt. Come on, man. That's the real reason for this particular rant. Why can't you just say that it bothered you that your old master wouldn't welcome you back with open arms? Instead you use that as evidence that kung fu schools are closed off.

If you got more involved with your feelings instead of being so disconnected from them it might solve some of your issues.

Besides that fact, I would agree that kungfu schools tend to be more closed off. Everyone there wants to live in a god-forsaken kungfu movie, they're great to watch sometimes but we live in reality.

[uki]

but we live in reality.a reality that we create...

[Ray Pina]

So all these kung fu players who fancy themselves "experts" wouldn't get their a$$ kicked if they really believed it and acquired the courage to go out and participate in a collective combative reality where people actually strike each other?

Hasn't been my reality so far. And I would say I've ventured deeper and longer than most looking for it.

[firepalm]

I would have to agree with much of what Xiao3 Meng4 had to say. I love the culture & diversity of CMA but truth be known when it comes down to fighting aspect (& the training that goes into it) a very large percentage of CMA 'Masters' have their heads up their 'a s ses', in my opinion.

I would also agree with Xiao3 Meng4 that typically a Wushu or Sanshou CMA school is generally a positive environment. And I would agree that many, not all but many so called traditional CMA are centered on things like power, control, money & greed and feed on gullible individuals.

Many the garden variety CMA Sifu & their schools here in Vancouver are complete paper tigers. So few of them will produce competitive fighters and many are supposedly about being 'traditional' and teaching CMA for fighting yet they don't actually spar. I used to listen with an open mind when most 'traditional' CMA Sifu talked about how Wushu or Sanshou wasn't real or this or that or how their styles were the real deal... now however I really believe when it comes right down to it in so far as fighting goes most of them and their students would have their heads handed to them in any sort of level of sparring / fighting with the average MMA / Kickboxing / Sanshou school.

All of this being said I do believe their are some decent traditional CMA Sifu and schools, they just aren't the norm. :confused::confused:

[MightyB]

All of this being said I do believe their are some decent traditional CMA Sifu and schools, they just aren't the norm. :confused::confused:

The question is... why are there so many paper tiger schools- and what can WE do about it?

[Lucas]

The question is... why are there so many paper tiger schools- and what can WE do about it?

for the same reason there are so many mcdojo's

CMA isnt alone in this. You will find that a variety of 'traditional' martial arts are being exploited this way.

CMA has such a large variety and abundance of outlets, it certainly seems to be the MOST exploited, due to the population within the CMA world.

some of it has to do with romantacism. plain and simple. people romantacise about being this bad ass martial arts guy so they go train, but never actually want to bleed or break bones. This in turn causes them to gravitate towards others of the same ilk.

IMO what we can do about this is to continue to educate people.

Fortunately modern wushu is and has been drawing a very distinct line between itself and martially applicable practices.

[lkfmdc]

TCMA is a product of the society and culture in which it was created. That traditional society (what the May 4th and later communists called "feudal" even though it was not truely a feudal society) is sectarian, xenophobic and superstitious. And that included the educated! Among the undeducated of course we had even worse conditions! :eek:

Well into the 20th century, taditional schools viewed themselves almost as cults and viewed all other schools and methods as the enemy. You don't cross train because you don't give the enemy your "combat secrets" :rolleyes:

Much "theory" was based upon superstition and plain ignorance. You didn't spar because the techniques were deadly. You never applied the scientific method to your suppositions

Some might also argue that once it became a business, it benefitted you to discourage students from visiting the competition and testing your methods left you open to potential failure and financial ruin. We do know some schools crumbled when a sifu didn't mean the test of a challenger.

Much maligned here, the MMA approach in fact is valid science, can you reproduce your results under the same conditions over and over again. If your theory is disproven, you move on and find the actual answer. MMA peopel cross train, the expose themselves to new material, they IMPROVE.

I've said it many times before, there is much practical, in fact excellent, fighting material in TCMA. The problem is that no one in the TCMA world is practicing in a way that gives them access to the attributes necessary to use the material.

Furthermore, since they haven't tested the proposition, many people in TCMA are focussed on the crap, and aren't aware which material IS the good material

[iron_leg_dave]

My finding is that most people that "do" gong fu, don't even do it. They sometimes will even strut like they really know something. When you push hands with them, they are self analytical and get confused really easy. They also usually come from schools that don't have any gloves in them, and not because they barenuckle box.

That said, some people that do nothing but gong fu, really terrify me.

[firepalm]

I've said it many times before, there is much practical, in fact excellent, fighting material in TCMA. The problem is that no one in the TCMA world is practicing in a way that gives them access to the attributes necessary to use the material.

Furthermore, since they haven't tested the proposition, many people in TCMA are focussed on the crap, and aren't aware which material IS the good material

Amen to both statements!
:)