Think fast

[Ray Pina]

You have to face your ultimate empty hand combative experience.... fighting for the light heavy weight UFC belt... or facing of against an athletic man slightly larger than yourself in a bar... or fending off an unarmed robbery by a sketchy looking dude who's slightly shorter and narrower than you but wearing a hoody.

You have zero training. You have eight months to prepare (money is not a factor and you have no other commitments/responsibilities) but can only train at one place. Which will it be?


The Wudang Temple

The Shaolin Temple

The boxing gym under the elevated train

The third floor kickboxing gym

The mixed martial arts gym on the outskirts of town

[TenTigers]

I would definately choose WuDang Temple.









But I would have the best boxing, Muay Thai,Grappling, and power trainers there with me.:p

[David Jamieson]

8 months?

wow, talk about hypothetical lol.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i would have sex with all their grandmothers so good they wouldnt want to mess with me.

[NJM]

cross train in Monkey to deal with the grappling issue.




you won't see me wasting time boxing either.

:):):):):):):):):)

Train at the MMA gym to fend off the unarmed robbery from the smaller guy.

[Mr Punch]

Ray,

no offence mate, but since you made your training more realistic I'd've thought you would've had better things to do with your time than procrastinate with ludicrous hypothetical bull**** that's been done to death.

RD, you're plain ol fulla****.

[uki]

the ignorance of this thread topic is astounding. to equate the benefit of training based on where one trains is absurd. it's not where you train, it is how you train... to think that people actually jump onto this bandwagon train of though is asinine to say the least... but do carry on... label yourselves and your training places; give all things a sticker so you can identify with it...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like stickers.

espeically the mr. yuck ones. reminds me of getting head.

[uki]

espeically the mr. yuck ones. reminds me of getting head.apparently from a man...:p

[Ray Pina]

I'm torn between choosing kicking boxing and MMA. I wonder if in the eight months, the time devoted to learning a little BJJ would detract from working hands and feet. But the escapes from side control, mount, guard could be easily learned in 8 months. So MMA.

Also, I think WHERE you train determines HOW your train. So I think it is most relevant.

[Ray Pina]

I'd've thought you would've had better things to do with your time than procrastinate with ludicrous hypothetical bull**** that's been done to death.

Sorry. Didn't know a similar topic was already posted.

The day is long and I'm without TV right now. So internet while eating or while listening to some tunes before surfing works for me.

Interesting to note you have 2,000 more posts than me. What are you doing with your time? You'll see what I've been doing with mine when I post my next fight footage.

[uki]

Also, I think WHERE you train determines HOW your train.then you are seeking externally for what can be found internally. it's the state of mind that dictates how you train... mind is the path.:)

[MasterKiller]

then you are seeking externally for what can be found internally. it's the state of mind that dictates how you train... mind is the path.:)

If you are standing in horse for half the class while your teacher shouts "More qi!" I doubt your performance in a fight is wholly dependant on your state of mind.

If the place you train is sub-par, chances are so are you.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

apparently from a man...:p

http://brooke-a-brac.com/images/2007/20071031MrYuck.jpg

[uki]

If you are standing in horse for half the class while your teacher shouts "More qi!" I doubt your performance in a fight is wholly dependant on your state of mind.then stop doubting...


If the place you train is sub-par, chances are so are you.i train in the best school there is... it's called life and nature is my teacher...

interesting... sub-par is below par... and that is more beneficial than being par; don't you golf?:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

then stop doubting...
i train in the best school there is... it's called life and nature is my teacher... I hope Nature is also your doctor and insurance agent.



interesting... sub-par is below par... and that is more beneficial than being par; don't you golf?:rolleyes:

sub�par
ADJECTIVE:
Not measuring up to traditional standards of performance, value, or production.

[uki]

I hope Nature is also your doctor and insurance agent.of course it is... laughter and sunlight are by far the best medicines. :)


Not measuring up to traditional standards of performance, value, or production.who said anything about adhering to traditional standards...

[Ray Pina]

tit's the state of mind that dictates how you train...

True that.

[Ray Pina]

i train in the best school there is... it's called life and nature is my teacher...

This is going a little too far. Sounds cool, but...

Plenty of guys think they know something and don't. Many people think they're hard and they don't know what hard is until they look into the eyes of a killer. There's a difference.

I'm not a killer and I know it. So I train real f@(king hard.

[Lucas]

Shaolin

Wudang

MMA

I would choose one of these three. With the knowledge I am training for 8 months with the goal to defend myself at the end of the training. I think that the teachers at any of these locations would train you accordingly to your goal. Likely putting you in the sanshou training right away, skipping forms, for the MMA school, we know its all fighting.

I dont know if the shaolin or the wudang temple would even except me for training knowing i would be there ONLY for strictly fight training. If they were to except me knowing in 8 months I would be fighting....who knows. Chances are you would be turned away anyhow. But i do know shaolin has sanshou training, ill assume that wudang does as well. So it would be straight to the fight training.

to fight in UFC uh.....you need MMA training. Since its MMA. pretty simple on that one. But i dont expect ANYONE to win UFC championship with only 8 months of MMA training. not gonna happen.

To fight in a bar or in your home, I dont think you need mma training. Bars and homes have weapons. Since I'm not picking the fight you can be rest assured I WILL use a weapon if one is handy and I can get to it. in a bar scenario, unless you get blindsided you probably have a bottle or glass already in your hand, thus already armed, probably in a chair or stool too, and if you do get blindsided your finished regarldess of your training, cuz we all get KO from a sucker punch just as easy from behind.... Or if i can get my knife into play.....for these situations I would probably be fine training in just boxing or kickboxing, but since I use my legs boxing is an out because I will kick given an opportunity.

but then again im also the type of guy that will stab you or shoot you given the opportunity if you attack me for no reason. IMO people that are attacking me without cause deserve no better than a large wound.

[uki]

This is going a little too far. why so? everything man accomplishes is derived from the fundementual laws of nature... everything from physics to genetic engineering... nature is the supreme teacher of all.


Sounds cool, but...it sounds cool because it is cool...


Plenty of guys think they know something and don't.and then again plenty of people do know something.



Many people think they're hard and they don't know what hard is until they look into the eyes of a killer. hard and soft is an illusion...


There's a difference. yeah... one is real, the other is not.


I'm not a killer and I know it.i am a killer and i understand it.


So I train real f@(king hard.i train at a natural pace.

[The Willow Sword]

You guys remember Rocky IV right? He watched his best friend and once rival get killed in the ring by a better fighter. He decides to go up against this great fighter and he travels to his challengers own ground and trains in the dead of winter at some farm in the middle of nowhere and then goes to face his opponent and he WINS!!!:) Yayyyyyy he wins he wins.

Now flash to this question that Ray Pina asked of us here. So if you suffer from Rocky IV syndrom in that you need a place to REALLY train and to REALLY prepare for the fight of your life, where would you go? Well i cant think of a better place that at Gunneddownatrocity's pad.:D
No seriously, thats where id go. Besides, after a hard day of training you get to sleep with the finest stock of grandmothers that GDA has to offer. No-one can resist a good Gummin' after a hard day of punchin and kickin. (enter the Koolaid man bustin through the wall "OH YEAHHH!!! )))

Peas,,TWS

[Fa Xing]

You guys remember Rocky IV right? He watched his best friend and once rival get killed in the ring by a better fighter. He decides to go up against this great fighter and he travels to his challengers own ground and trains in the dead of winter at some farm in the middle of nowhere and then goes to face his opponent and he WINS!!!:) Yayyyyyy he wins he wins.

Now flash to this question that Ray Pina asked of us here. So if you suffer from Rocky IV syndrom in that you need a place to REALLY train and to REALLY prepare for the fight of your life, where would you go? Well i cant think of a better place that at Gunneddownatrocity's pad.:D
No seriously, thats where id go. Besides, after a hard day of training you get to sleep with the finest stock of grandmothers that GDA has to offer. No-one can resist a good Gummin' after a hard day of punchin and kickin. (enter the Koolaid man bustin through the wall "OH YEAHHH!!! )))

Peas,,TWS

This post is awesome.:cool:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Besides, after a hard day of training you get to sleep with the finest stock of grandmothers that GDA has to offer. No-one can resist a good Gummin' after a hard day of punchin and kickin. (enter the Koolaid man bustin through the wall "OH YEAHHH!!! )))


Peas,,TWS

i maintain a strictly polygrip free training facility.

plus i dvr mammas family. i know vicki lawrence wasn't really old, but as long as she wore that wig i'd hit it like the fist of an angry god.

[iron_leg_dave]

This thread is a joke right?

8 months?


Boxing?

[phoenix-eye]

This thread is a joke right?

8 months?


Boxing?

A year ago I would have laughed Ray Pina to death......I thought he was a massive troll.

However, he took his dumps (beatings) on the chin and i think he now speaks a lot of sense.

It's a fair question.... What gives quickest results in today's environment??

IMHO....it's the MMA gym.

And its sad to say that I come from a solid TCMA background. In the last 4-5 years I have more or less abandoned my traditional training because i felt it was adding nothing to my practical skills.

Paul

[SPJ]

You have to face your ultimate empty hand combative experience.... fighting for the light heavy weight UFC belt... or facing of against an athletic man slightly larger than yourself in a bar... or fending off an unarmed robbery by a sketchy looking dude who's slightly shorter and narrower than you but wearing a hoody.

You have zero training. You have eight months to prepare (money is not a factor and you have no other commitments/responsibilities) but can only train at one place. Which will it be?


The Wudang Temple

The Shaolin Temple

The boxing gym under the elevated train

The third floor kickboxing gym

The mixed martial arts gym on the outskirts of town

oops, I was going to say to learn some grappling and shuai jiao.

8 months may not be enough to improve on punches and kicks.

if the opponent is bigger, my punches and kicks probably would not knock him out.

but I may get close, and shuai him or learn some shuai and be good at them in 8 months,

:)

[Ray Pina]

i am a killer and i understand it.


I have to say, I'm enjoying our conversation and I agree with a lot of what you say. I can say life, nature or the Tao has taught me the most important lessons, things hard to explain but that have been imparted to me on a personal level.

With that said I have never taken a human life and I hope I never do. I know killers. I don't judge it. In the instances I can say the people were truly paying people back for real attempts on their life.

I don't know you. I don't know if you're being honest, and if so if it was in war or on the streets or whatever. But I respect your mind so far. And peace be with you.

[Mr Punch]

A year ago I would have laughed Ray Pina to death......I thought he was a massive troll.

However, he took his dumps (beatings) on the chin and i think he now speaks a lot of sense.

It's a fair question.... What gives quickest results in today's environment??

IMHO....it's the MMA gym.

And its sad to say that I come from a solid TCMA background. In the last 4-5 years I have more or less abandoned my traditional training because i felt it was adding nothing to my practical skills.

PaulFair post.

The question is old and cheesy however which is why I was surprised that Ray was asking it. Unfortunately he took it as insulting.

And to you Ray, don't forget some of us came out of rigid traditionalism and took our beatings way before you... before you start with the 'what have you been doing' crap right back at me! I can post at work so that means nothing either.

OK, so for an answer of course it's MMA or boxing, though I don't know anything about the wudang training regime.


i am a killer and i understand it.
OK, I'm gonna bite. What are you talking about? Have you killed people? A person? Cos killing animals and fish just ain't the same.

[uki]

I can say life, nature or the Tao has taught me the most important lessons, things hard to explain but that have been imparted to me on a personal level.the beauty of the way...


With that said I have never taken a human life and I hope I never do. I know killers. I don't judge it. In the instances I can say the people were truly paying people back for real attempts on their life.don't get confused... killing and murder are two different concepts... one is justified, the other is not.


I don't know you. I don't know if you're being honest, and if so if it was in war or on the streets or whatever. But I respect your mind so far. And peace be with you.it's a mentality... if you program yourself to believe you can't, or hope to don't, or whatever when it comes to the act of killing... it may be a fatal flaw... so it is easier to tell yourself that you can kill, without hesitation or remorse if the situation arises. with that being said it is safe to say that i am a killer who hasn't killed... but will if i have to. from another angle, i believe in re-incarnation and rebirth... the whole bodhisattva concept and all... so for me, killing is no big moral or spiritual stumbling block, it's just part of life.

[TenTigers]

it is safe to say that i am a killer who hasn't killed... .

that says it all

[Ray Pina]

don't forget some of us came out of rigid traditionalism and took our beatings way before you...

Can you be sure of this?

I started my training in 1978 at the age 4. Six days a week.

[Ray Pina]

is easier to tell yourself that you can kill, without hesitation or remorse if the situation arises. with that being said it is safe to say that i am a killer who hasn't killed... but will if i have to. from another angle, i believe in re-incarnation and rebirth... the whole bodhisattva concept and all... so for me, killing is no big moral or spiritual stumbling block, it's just part of life.

I'm quite certain I could kill without hesitation if needed to. And I don't really believe in morals too much. It's all perspective.

But I respect all life. I try not to even kill bugs in my place. But time and place, right? Two days ago I was taking a dump and a saw a spider and my first instinct was to crush it but I let it go, actually enjoying its unique way. But wait. There's another one. And then a third. It became an infestation. I quickly smashed the three and then found baby crawling near my feet. Wiped out the whole family and went for a surf and didn't think about it again until now.

I'm full of love but can be a cruel MF too. :)

It's all a possibilities, right?

[Mr Punch]

Can you be sure of this?

I started my training in 1978 at the age 4. Six days a week.**** me pal, will you stop trying the ****ing contest thing? I wasn't having a go at you in the first place.

What did you start in age 4? I'm guessing traditional something. I was talking about when you had your epiphany that the trad ways were not necessarily enough and branched out into more solid, tested cross training... which was when?

I've always tested my arts against other arts with what are now called throwdowns... and had my ass handed to me on a plate enough times to modify what I was doing tech and training and principle-wise... since the second year of my training which would be 16 years ago now. I took my first fully resistant JJ (tho admittedly JJJ - shock!!!) about 12 years ago. I'm not calling you out, playing the expert or otherwise dissing you, but you started with the 'what have you been doing with your time' **** so knock it off. That's my last word: go ahead and have yours.

[MightyB]

whatever one that was hardcore (includes hard sparring/randori and conditioning-conditioning-conditioning), offered 6 days a week classes, that last 2 or more hours a pop. Also, has to have a teacher, master, coach, guru that has enough common sense or experience to know what's bs flowery mess and what's real deal combat training. 8 months is more than adequate using any of those styles as long as the above criteria are met. Even MMA training can suck in the hands of the wrong teacher.

[Ray Pina]

no offence mate, but since you made your training more realistic I'd've thought you would've had better things to do with your time than procrastinate with ludicrous hypothetical bull**** that's been done to death..

I notice your technique is to pretty up your attacks and insults. Those were your first words to me.


**** me pal, will you stop trying the ****ing contest thing? I wasn't having a go at you in the first place.

**** you. You were and I train hard so I a) don't have to take no **** from some punk a$$ without a gun and b) deserve the same respect any other man does. And will fight for it.


I'm not calling you out, playing the expert or otherwise dissing you, but you started with the 'what have you been doing with your time' **** so knock it off. That's my last word: go ahead and have yours.

No. Again. You did call me out. And once out I don't play games or talk ****. I put it just as it is. I plan on kicking some a$$ in Dec. and win or lose I'll post it like I always do.


What did you start in age 4? I'm guessing traditional something. I was talking about when you had your epiphany that the trad ways were not necessarily enough and branched out into more solid, tested cross training... which was when?

I started with Issin-Ryu karate and actually hold it in very high esteem. My sensei's, sensei (a proud black man in Newark NJ) was climbing up six foot ladders and landing on his knuckles. My sensei was ripped. Real. A fighter. His son was a pro kick boxer. They raised me with respect and discipline. Unfortunately, and this is 100% true, Kung Fu deprogrammed a lot of good things out of me. My master had his reasons and he taught me plenty, but I'm now working hard to regain some valuable things, many of them a certain fortitude, that I lost while sleeping.

[Ray Pina]

whatever one that was hardcore (includes hard sparring/randori and conditioning-conditioning-conditioning), offered 6 days a week classes, that last 2 or more hours a pop. Also, has to have a teacher, master, coach, guru that has enough common sense or experience to know what's bs flowery mess and what's real deal combat training. 8 months is more than adequate using any of those styles as long as the above criteria are met. Even MMA training can suck in the hands of the wrong teacher.


BEST POST. YOU WIN..... Can we please close the thread?

[Mr Punch]

Good luck in your next fight Ray, as always. Kick some ass.

:rolleyes: at the rest of your nonsense.

[uki]

that says it alloxymorons have been a weekly theme. think about it though... you go off and join the marine corp and the whole cirriculum is based on making you a killer... is it any different to train your mind without some a$$hole screaming in your face from sun-up to sun down?

I'm quite certain I could kill without hesitation if needed to.now that is the proper mindset.


And I don't really believe in morals too much. it's not believing in morals... it is practicing them.


It's all perspective.relative to the postion.


But I respect all life. all life?


I try not to even kill bugs in my place. trying is not doing.


But time and place, right? Two days ago I was taking a dump and a saw a spider and my first instinct was to crush it but I let it go, actually enjoying its unique way. But wait. There's another one. And then a third. It became an infestation. I quickly smashed the three and then found baby crawling near my feet. we have spiders all throughout our house... can't find it in us to kill any of them... a wolf spider lives in our bathroom and drops it's skin on the towels... the most we do is sweep up the webs and take them outside.


Wiped out the whole family and went for a surf and didn't think about it again until now.not quite something to brag about... not that you are, just a statement for the rest of the spectators...


I'm full of love but can be a cruel MF too.balance is the key.


It's all a possibilities, right?of course... just be mindful of the repercussions.

[iron_leg_dave]

oxymorons have been a weekly theme. think about it though... you go off and join the marine corp and the whole cirriculum is based on making you a killer... is it any different to train your mind without some a$$hole screaming in your face from sun-up to sun down?
now that is the proper mindset.
it's not believing in morals... it is practicing them.
relative to the postion.
all life?
trying is not doing.
we have spiders all throughout our house... can't find it in us to kill any of them... a wolf spider lives in our bathroom and drops it's skin on the towels... the most we do is sweep up the webs and take them outside.
not quite something to brag about... not that you are, just a statement for the rest of the spectators...
balance is the key.
of course... just be mindful of the repercussions.

...

You people obviouslly don't have ****roaches...

If you ever see a roach, my advice is, kill it, as quickly as possible.

I keep picturing this dude sitting in a lawn chair in rural Kentucky listening to Chinese Classical music drinking a virgin margarita while covered in welts swarmed by unswatted mosquitos.

[uki]

...
You people obviouslly don't have ****roaches...we got roaches around here... when they get outta line my girlfriend sets the traps. we don't kill spiders in the house, hornets, wasps(though we tend to remove them). we have a few family mice...


If you ever see a roach, my advice is, kill it, as quickly as possible.why? the worst i do to them is catch them and feed them to my fish...


I keep picturing this dude sitting in a lawn chair in rural Kentucky listening to Chinese Classical music drinking a virgin margarita while covered in welts swarmed by unswatted mosquitos.actually i am in semi-rural pennsylvania... mosquitos are a pain, but atleast the biting flies are gone this year because the goats are gone. it's not margarita's, it's usually harp or guiness; sometimes mosquitoes do get the swat... :D

[SimonM]

. from another angle, i believe in re-incarnation and rebirth... the whole bodhisattva concept and all... so for me, killing is no big moral or spiritual stumbling block, it's just part of life.

Uki this shows your fundamental failure to understand the dharma. Sorry. :o

[uki]

Uki this shows your fundamental failure to understand the dharma. Sorry. what is to understand.

[SimonM]

There is no "I" to reincarnate. Killing another causes terrible suffering and is the opposite of what one on the bodhisattva path should do.

[Ray Pina]

I truly see it as all nothing... yet at the same time all me. We are all aspects of the one living universe. To harm one part is to harm oneself in one way. And at the same time there's nothing to harm.

I've put so much thought into all of this only to come back to the same basic lessons my Christian mom taught me. They work just as good. The golden rule so to say.

Not everyone sees things the same way. Best policy is to be kind and respectful to people, animals and nature and things in general. Any deviation from this stems from ones own inner anger/issues, and will always catch up with the person.

[uki]

There is no "I" to reincarnate. there is just a singular expression that periodically forgets and remembers itself...

Killing another causes terrible suffering and is the opposite of what one on the bodhisattva path should do.perhaps you should clarify the statement by replacing the word killing with the word murder... killing and death are a natural part of life... a bodhisattva belongs to no path and is outside the karmic cycle... we are untouchable in a sense. the sole purpose of a bodhisattva is to help spread the light of truth... whatever attains that purpose is acceptable... there is no right or wrong in our eyes.

[SimonM]

I am not referring to the individual of the bodhisattva. Rather I refer to the more important bodhisattva path which is the road one walks in their simultaneous pursuit of enlightenment and of the liberation of all beings from samsara. I say more important because most people are not bodhisattvas but every person should aspire to liberate themselves and others from samsara.

As for the issue of non-dualism, I do concur that Buddha councilled against self-other dualistic ideals. That being said the primary purpose for the dharma, the whole reason why Buddha chose to teach disciples in the first place was in order to liberate everyone from samsara. And killing, in the context we were discussing, is contrary to that goal.

[uki]

I am not referring to the individual of the bodhisattva.there is no path for a bodhisattva.

Rather I refer to the more important bodhisattva path which is the road one walks in their simultaneous pursuit of enlightenment and of the liberation of all beings from samsara. you cannot lead other people to the truth until you have discovered it for yourself... all suffering is choice. people desire to walk the road of suffering hand in hand... the path to enlightenment is ones own journey... you cannot take passengers until you are liscenced to drive the bus.:)


I say more important because most people are not bodhisattvas but every person should aspire to liberate themselves and others from samsara.again most people should just concentrate on liberating themselves before liberating another... as for the bodhisattva's numbers... 144,000 to be exact... so in a sense you are right... there is not many of us.

[Lucas]

144,000 to be exact.

How do you come by this figure?

[uki]

How do you come by this figure?9 is the number of change...

here's something a bit more simpler to ponder. :)http://www.earthmatrix.com/essay124.html

[Ray Pina]

all suffering is choice. people desire to walk the road of suffering hand in hand... the path to enlightenment is ones own journey.

Word......

[Ray Pina]

9 is the number of change...

here's something a bit more simpler to ponder. :)http://www.earthmatrix.com/essay124.html

I'm curious about the numbers too: 144,000 and 9. Anything on 5... that's a special number to me. I just can't read all of that $hit. Especially on Sat.

[cjurakpt]

classically (that is, in accordance with Buddhist doctrine) a bodhisattva is, quite simply, an individual who, while having the capacity to attain Nirvanna, compassionately forswears and forestalls doing so until all other sentient beings have been liberated;

a bodhisattva cannot liberate another person; even the Buddha said that the two things he could not do was to erase someone's karma and liberate someone else; which isn't really the point anyway - in a way, a bodhisattva is like the camp counselor who waits at the back of the line until the fat slow kid gets to the top of the mountain - he can encourage him, give him hope of reaching the top, but he won't carry him...

to walk the path of a bodhisattva, again, in classical terms, means to take a specific vow that is more involved and complex than the one one takes when one takes refuge; it inherently is more restrictive in terms of lifestyle, but again, this is from a classical doctrinal perspective; for this reason, a very small percentage of Buddhists take this vow, because it's actually considered a rather serious step (no backsies, cross-fingers allowed...);

of course, one may use the term and construe it however one likes: the strength of our culture is that we are often able to make progress because we blatantly defy the conventions of the past; OTOH if one is going to use the specific term, one might want to utilize it in accordance with the accepted definition as opposed to co-opting it according to one's own subjective experience, picking and choosing certain aspects of it and eschewing others for the sake of convenience or personal taste; not that it really matters ultimately, but given that the Buddha used the term in order to demonstrate specific points, it seems prudent to give him the benefit of the doubt;

ultimately, the dharma is but a boat used to cross the river, certainly no point in carrying it along when one has reached the other side; of course, ditching early may not be the wisest choice either: having the opposite shore in sight is not quite the same as being there...

[uki]

classically, blah, blah, blah...the classics are nothing more than old, new ideas...

[Vash]

I don't think my body could handle the shear volume of drugs I would need to do to come close to understanding uki's posts.

[cjurakpt]

the classics are nothing more than old, new ideas...

the so-called "classics" are to remind us that we're not nearly as original as we like to think that we are

and my point had nothing to do with the content of any so-called classics beyond delineating usage of the term bodhisattva; but I'll bet you knew that already, Huckleberry ;):D:cool:

[uki]

the so-called "classics" are to remind us that we're not nearly as original as we like to think that we areall those so called classics were somones original idea... by your reasoning, you seem to be implying that there are no more original ideas... how transparent...


and my point had nothing to do with the content of any so-called classics beyond delineating usage of the term bodhisattva; i used the term bodhisattva so folks here can identify with the concept.


but I'll bet you knew that already, Huckleberryi understand somebody feels like their toes are being stepped on. :)
I don't think my body could handle the shear volume of drugs I would need to do to come close to understanding uki's posts.you don't understand them because you are not awake yet.

[cjurakpt]

all those so called classics were somones original idea...
but who (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNC-aj76zI4) really deserves the credit?


by your reasoning, you seem to be implying that there are no more original ideas...
this is the pivot of the case - treat each new discovery with great joy and and great doubt; the question is whether you do the same form every day or not;


how transparent...
aw shucks, ya see right through me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1AbxBrr8A8)...


i used the term bodhisattva so folks here can identify with the concept.
to use the term is to be necessarily beholden to it's correct usage; if you want to alter the terms, feel free, but the name doesn't come along for the ride


i understand somebody feels like their toes are being stepped on. :)
well, my feet were killing me, but now that you've washed and massaged them for me they feel much better!


you don't understand them because you are not awake yet.
who can sleep with all this banging of pots and pans?

[uki]

but who really deserves the credit?the way of nature needs no credit...


this is the pivot of the casemore of that legal jargon.:p


treat each new discovery with great joy and and great doubt;be like a child.


the question is whether you do the same form every day or not;to greet each new day as a new experience... doing the same thing everyday gets boring...


aw shucks, ya see right through me.what's to see through?


to use the term is to be necessarily beholden to it's correct usage;there are many mis-conceptions of the term...

if you want to alter the terms, feel free, but the name doesn't come along for the rideit does come along for the ride if i choose to pack it and take it along for the journey.


well, my feet were killing me, but now that you've washed and massaged them for me they feel much better!glad i could be of service... would you like a happy ending with that?


who can sleep with all this banging of pots and pans?what noise?

i must say... you keep me on my toes.:p

[iron_leg_dave]

I've never understould why wherever there is gong fu, there are cults.

Is it because gong fu has a unique appeal to the weak?

[Mr Punch]

Nice posts Chris.

And I thought you were incapable of writing comprehensible sentences! :)

[uki]

I've never understould why wherever there is gong fu, there are cults.just like anything else... people who are insecure in their identities tend to cogulate into groups of similar dispositions... it is a biological reflex to find safety in numbers when the individuals are still controlled by fear.


Is it because gong fu has a unique appeal to the weak?it may have an appeal to the weak... but only the strong have it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Actions do not create karma. Clinging creates karma.

Clinging to samsara causes karma. Clinging to dharma causes karma. Clinging to saving others from samsara causes karma. Clinging to Buddhism causes karma. Clinging to killing causes karma.

Killing does not cause karma, clinging causes karma. If when killing, there is no clinging, there is no karma.

Inherently there is no death. If while living there is no clinging to life, there is no death.

Inherently no one suffers. When there is no clinging, there is no karma. When there is no karma, there is no suffering. If there is no clinging, there is no suffering.

Inherently there is no one to save, so what need is there for bodhisattvas.

Life is a game; if we take the rules too seriously we are bound by the rules. While the rules serve a purpose, they are inherently arbitrary, they are pretend. If we cling to the rules we create karma. Although we do not cling to the rules we may still play by the rules because the rules bring with them worldly consequences.

[cjurakpt]

Actions do not create karma. Clinging creates karma.

Clinging to samsara causes karma. Clinging to dharma causes karma. Clinging to saving others from samsara causes karma. Clinging to Buddhism causes karma. Clinging to killing causes karma.

Killing does not cause karma, clinging causes karma. If when killing, there is no clinging, there is no karma.

Inherently there is no death. If while living there is no clinging to life, there is no death.

Inherently no one suffers. When there is no clinging, there is no karma. When there is no karma, there is no suffering. If there is no clinging, there is no suffering.

Inherently there is no one to save, so what need is there for bodhisattvas.

Life is a game; if we take the rules too seriously we are bound by the rules. While the rules serve a purpose, they are inherently arbitrary, they are pretend. If we cling to the rules we create karma. Although we do not cling to the rules we may still play by the rules because the rules bring with them worldly consequences.

killjoy...:mad:

[cjurakpt]

the way of nature needs no credit...
yes, it's a cash-only enterprise


more of that legal jargon.:p
I should start a billing invoice...


be like a child.
hungry - eat; full - stop;


to greet each new day as a new experience... doing the same thing everyday gets boring...
and given the impossibility of doing the same thing everyday, one can never get bored


what's to see through?
only that which one creates by looking for something


there are many mis-conceptions of the term...
it does come along for the ride if i choose to pack it and take it along for the journey.
kicking and screaming if by no other means


glad i could be of service... would you like a happy ending with that?
stop playing dead, you crafty old tiger...


what noise?
...


i must say... you keep me on my toes.:p
no need to pounce, I lower my head and wish you and your family peace, Grasshut

[cjurakpt]

Nice posts Chris.

And I thought you were incapable of writing comprehensible sentences! :)

I do slip up from time to time...

[cjurakpt]

I've never understould why wherever there is gong fu, there are cults.
Is it because gong fu has a unique appeal to the weak?
you search for what you think you lack; if the person who you think has what you want is teaching out of their neurotic need for self-validation through the subjugation of others, you've found a great match;


just like anything else... people who are insecure in their identities tend to cogulate into groups of similar dispositions... it is a biological reflex to find safety in numbers when the individuals are still controlled by fear.
yep

[uki]

and given the impossibility of doing the same thing everyday, one can never get boredhmmmm... there are alot of people stuck in a groundhog day.


only that which one creates by looking for somethinglooking for something is better than doing nothing.


kicking and screaming if by no other meansbut it is still going for the ride.


stop playing dead, you crafty old tiger...i have to keep honing my skills... i don't fall for the mask on the back of the head trick either.

...banging pots and pans makes no noise over the postings on an internet forum.


no need to pounce, I lower my head and wish you and your family peace, Grasshutthe first thing that pops into my mind was a big huge house made from marijuana buds... thank you for the blessings... crackpot.
LOL... there was just a post about a university finding on the mind registering words regardless off mis-spellings as long as the begining and ending letters are correct... the first thing i saw on your handle was crackpot... hehehehe... i'm a grass(marijuana)hut and you are a crackpot. :D

[cjurakpt]

hmmmm... there are alot of people stuck in a groundhog day.
don't drive angry...


looking for something is better than doing nothing.
nothing to do anyway, really


but it is still going for the ride.
better buckle up then...


the first thing that pops into my mind was a big huge house made from marijuana buds... thank you for the blessings...
they fall all around, waiting to be snatched up


crackpot.LOL... there was just a post about a university finding on the mind registering words regardless off mis-spellings as long as the begining and ending letters are correct... the first thing i saw on your handle was crackpot... hehehehe... i'm a grass(marijuana)hut and you are a crackpot. :D
ha! Grass Hut and Cracked Pot - going up in smoke and pouring out the hole!

[uki]

ha! Grass Hut and Cracked Pot - going up in smoke and pouring out the hole!just when you think something has been contained...

[Scott R. Brown]

killjoy...:mad:

That's what you get for coming out of hibernation too early!;)

[WanderingMonk]

Let's take your reasoning to its logical conclusion. Let's say A kill B without any clinging. So, A's action carries no consequence because A has no clinging? what if B's relative come and kill A for revenge? Would the karma be caused by B's relative's because they have clinging?

Karma is Sanskrit for action. The fruit of action is its reaction, its karmic retribution. Typical usage of the word karma in English implies karmic retribution. A ball hits the ground without any clinging because it is not sentient. but, it sure does bounce back up. so, extending your logic to its logical end, the ball should just stay on the ground and does not bounce because as long as there is no clinging, there is no karmic retribution. :eek::confused::eek:




Actions do not create karma. Clinging creates karma.

Clinging to samsara causes karma. Clinging to dharma causes karma. Clinging to saving others from samsara causes karma. Clinging to Buddhism causes karma. Clinging to killing causes karma.

Killing does not cause karma, clinging causes karma. If when killing, there is no clinging, there is no karma.

Inherently there is no death. If while living there is no clinging to life, there is no death.

Inherently no one suffers. When there is no clinging, there is no karma. When there is no karma, there is no suffering. If there is no clinging, there is no suffering.

Inherently there is no one to save, so what need is there for bodhisattvas.

Life is a game; if we take the rules too seriously we are bound by the rules. While the rules serve a purpose, they are inherently arbitrary, they are pretend. If we cling to the rules we create karma. Although we do not cling to the rules we may still play by the rules because the rules bring with them worldly consequences.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Wandering Monk,


Let's take your reasoning to its logical conclusion. Let's say A kill B without any clinging. So, A's action carries no consequence because A has no clinging? what if B's relative come and kill A for revenge? Would the karma be caused by B's relative's because they have clinging?

Karma is Sanskrit for action. The fruit of action is its reaction, its karmic retribution. Typical usage of the word karma in English implies karmic retribution. A ball hits the ground without any clinging because it is not sentient. but, it sure does bounce back up. so, extending your logic to its logical end, the ball should just stay on the ground and does not bounce because as long as there is no clinging, there is no karmic retribution. :eek::confused::eek:

Perhaps you missed this paragraph:


Life is a game; if we take the rules too seriously we are bound by the rules. While the rules serve a purpose, they are inherently arbitrary, they are pretend. If we cling to the rules we create karma. Although we do not cling to the rules we may still play by the rules because the rules bring with them worldly consequences.

The action, absent clinging, creates no spiritual consequence, but all actions have world system consequences. I refer you to the Bhagavad-Gita and D. T. Suzuki's, "The Zen Doctrine of No-Mind"

[uki]

The action, absent clinging, creates no spiritual consequence, but all actions have world system consequences. if something has no spiritual consequence, it will not manifest into a physical one. the world and it's system of operation is based on fear and lies... the only consequence for spreading light is that things get brighter by the moment. the world is darkness, truth is the light and darkness cannot cling to light. it's the age old Christ teaching of living in the world, but not being a part of it...

[Ray Pina]

How did my combat topic turn into this bull$hit:confused:

[Mr Punch]

How did my combat topic turn into this bull$hit:confused:

Ray,

no offence mate, but ... to procrastinate with ludicrous hypothetical bull**** that's been done to death.:D

:p

;)

[Ray Pina]

I brought the potential for a serious discussion about training for combat and posted it in the "Kung Fu" forum.

Members here turned it into a philosophical debate. Not surprising.

[TenTigers]

How did my combat topic turn into this bull$hit:confused:

thanx, Ray. I just spit coffee all over my keyboard!:D:D

[Vash]

I brought the potential for a serious discussion about training for combat and posted it in the "Kung Fu" forum.

Members here turned it into a philosophical debate. Not surprising.

Well, to bring it BACK to topic, I would choose . . .

THE REAL.

THE RAW.

THE ONLY METHOD WITH ZERO PRETENDERS, ZERO EGO, AND 100000% "COMBAT" EFFICACY. NO WASTED MOTION. NO WASTED TRAINING TIME. JUST 100000000% PURE, RAW, REAL, POWER.

I'm going to be an internet badass.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Actions do not create karma. Clinging creates karma.

Clinging to samsara causes karma. Clinging to dharma causes karma. Clinging to saving others from samsara causes karma. Clinging to Buddhism causes karma. Clinging to killing causes karma.

Killing does not cause karma, clinging causes karma. If when killing, there is no clinging, there is no karma.

Inherently there is no death. If while living there is no clinging to life, there is no death.

Inherently no one suffers. When there is no clinging, there is no karma. When there is no karma, there is no suffering. If there is no clinging, there is no suffering.

Inherently there is no one to save, so what need is there for bodhisattvas.

Life is a game; if we take the rules too seriously we are bound by the rules. While the rules serve a purpose, they are inherently arbitrary, they are pretend. If we cling to the rules we create karma. Although we do not cling to the rules we may still play by the rules because the rules bring with them worldly consequences.

i disagree that clinging/shenpa is the only source of karma. while i admit i'm not extensively learned on the subject, i see karma more as consequences for actions - regarless of intent. not that karma works as a punishment / reward system, just that everything has a cause and an effect. karma is simply the causal relationship between our actions and our lives. i hear what your saying about shenpa, but for me personally its more comforting to think that i somehow chose the circumstances in my life through my actions, the one thing i have control over, vs my thoughts/emotions/clinging/etc which i have no control over. i could be off base, but this is where im at today.

i also think that homeless people should be used to help eliminate world hunger.

[SimonM]

I agree that karma, within a Buddhist context, is simply the word used to apply to the understanding of cause and effect. However I think that gaining control over thoughts / emotions / clinging is an important goal to develop.

And I don't disregard compassion, the most important part of the dharma.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

. . .. but isn't the idea to abandon the notion of fixing your emotions and thoughts? to accept them as natural for you in the moment and focus instead on how you react to them, or better yet on not reacting to them?

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry guys!

Ray doesn't want the conversation off his intended topic. I will respect his wishes!:)

[bakxierboxer]

i also think that homeless people should be used to help eliminate world hunger.

GREAT idea!
The only economic problem with it is the need to fatten them up before
sending them to the processing plant.

[uki]

GREAT idea!
The only economic problem with it is the need to fatten them up before
sending them to the processing plant.american society seems to be above par on resolving that issue.:D

[Ray Pina]

Sorry guys!

Ray doesn't want the conversation off his intended topic. I will respect his wishes!:)

I appreciate it. But let the flow go I guess.... no use trying to stop it.

Personally, I spent so much time thinking about all that $hit and I've learned to just live in the now, do what comes naturally. Cause and effect, of course. But you never can be sure what caused what and what effect is due to what cause. Why waist the brain power? No point arguing over personal truths.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I appreciate it. But let the flow go I guess.... no use trying to stop it.

Personally, I spent so much time thinking about all that $hit and I've learned to just live in the now, do what comes naturally. Cause and effect, of course. But you never can be sure what caused what and what effect is due to what cause. Why waist the brain power? No point arguing over personal truths.

no point in arguing, but hearing another's personal truths may lead to new insights for your own. also . . . for me personaly, its not so much about figuring out exactly what caused what, but embracing the idea that in some way i caused it. i like to think that i have personal responsibility for all of my circumstances. even if its not always the case, it forces me to approach life a little differently and never play the victim.

[KC Elbows]

I think part of the importance of clinging to producing karma is that it is clinging that causes one to do the actions that create such results. If one is not clinging, then one is more apt to allow things to be as they are, and so has little cause to interfere. Addressing past karma is like dealing with something after it is actually a bit late to do so, while dealing with desire is preventative. The main gain from considering either is ceasing to view desire as need, but one way is directly dealing with the source of the problem, the other trying to get a view of where the problem was before, but may no longer be.

[Ray Pina]

i like to think that i have personal responsibility for all of my circumstances. even if its not always the case, it forces me to approach life a little differently and never play the victim.

Amen brother. And those things we can't control.... we can control how we handle them.

Bust of luck in all your endeavors.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well then Ray, with your permission:

Hi uki,


if something has no spiritual consequence, it will not manifest into a physical one…

This can be viewed as true or false depending upon the context one is using. When we speak of the material world system, cause and effect hold sway; consequences for our actions do occur. However, if there is no clinging, the person experiencing the world system consequences will react “as if” they didn’t occur, from an emotional/mental perspective. This is because they make no distinction between good and bad, so anything that occurs is merely experienced without a value being attached to the experience. When no value is added, there is no spiritual karmic consequence even though a material consequence may occur.

As an example:

During the beginning of the Vietnam War a number of Vietnamese Buddhist monks immolated themselves in protest of the war. They composed themselves in a public place, sat in the lotus posture, doused themselves with gasoline, and set themselves on fire. (There are news reels of these acts.) The monks sat peacefully in their meditative postures, not moving, while they burned to death.

If the monks did not possess a clinging mind, there was no karma created that would bind them to the world of samsara. However, they did experience the material consequences of setting themselves on fire. They did indeed burn to death.

While they were still subject to the cause and effect consequences of the material world, they were not subject to spiritually karmic consequences if they were absent any mental clinging. No clinging, no karmic consequence. However, if you set yourself on fire, you will burn. These are two acts, one mental/spiritual and the other material, are different forms of cause and effect with different forms of consequence.

Here are a few excerpts from a manuscript of Bodhi-Dharma’s sayings which were discovered at Tun-huang, China. The translation is by D. T. Suzuki:

”All is mind-made. It is like a man’s painting a devil, a creature from hell, or a dragon, or a tiger. He paints it, looks at it, and is frightened. There is, however, nothing at all in the painted figure itself which is fearsome. All is the brushwork of your own imagination. From the first, not a thing is, except what you have made out of your own illusive mind.”

“If the Tao (=the Dharma) universally prevails in all things, why is it criminal to destroy life and not criminal to destroy plant life? The master answers: To talk about the criminality of a deed is an affair of human imagination, and concerns its effect in a world of events, and this is not at all the right way of viewing it. Just because a man has not attained the ultimate reason of the matter, he says he has committed a murder. So he has a ‘mind’ which bears karma, and he is said to be guilty of a crime. In the case of a plant-life, it has no imagination, and hence no ego-consciousness, and he who destroys it remains indifferent about it; he conjures up no ghost of imagination. The result is that no idea of criminality is involved there……..If, on the other hand, there is a “mind” in you which makes you hesitate and deliberate and feel uneasy, even the destruction of a mosquito will surely tie the knots of karma for you…when your mind is free from the idea of private possession, all goes well with you. But as soon as there arises in the mind the thought of “mine” and “thine” you are slaves to your karma.

D. T. Suzuki comments on these passages:

“When ‘I’ is an illusion, all that goes on in the name of this agent must be an illusion to, including moral sins, various kinds of feelings and desire, and hell and the land of bliss. With the removal of this illusion, the world with all it multiplicities will disappear, and if there is anything left which can act, this one will act with utmost freedom, with fearlessness…But at the same time the possibility of a moral world is annulled, and then how can licentiousness be distinguished from holiness?”

and

“According to this, when your mind functions with Nature, being no more harassed by the dualistic thoughts of good and bad, just and unjust, merit and demerit, Heaven and Hell, but inevitably as fire burns and water soaks, you are not responsible for whatever deeds you commit and consequently no course of karma is attached to them. You behave like the wind, and who blames the wind when it leaves havoc in its wake?”

and lastly,

“When you are like this, no karma can tie you up to any form of obligation or responsibility, though of course this does not mean that you escape the laws of causation which regulate this empirical world of ours. These laws may be artificial, human-made, being the outcome of moral deliberations, but they work just the same.

While your own mind is free from discriminative thoughts and feeling, other minds, not so free as yours, and given up to imaginations, will no doubt affect your life under the guise of moral laws.”

We are always subject to the moral codes of the world system no matter how imaginary and arbitrary they may be. We may be free from clinging, and our actions may not produce karma, however, if we murder, we are still subject to the arbitrary moral codes of the world system.

We are free to eat meat, kill mosquitoes and even kill humans, whether excused by the moral codes or not, the only karma accrued is the karma we create out of our own minds.

We are also subject to the material laws of cause and effect. Fire still burns and water is still wet. A ton of bricks will still crush you!


…the world and it's system of operation is based on fear and lies... the only consequence for spreading light is that things get brighter by the moment. the world is darkness, truth is the light and darkness cannot cling to light. it's the age old Christ teaching of living in the world, but not being a part of it...

In a world of darkness, those that shine light on the illusion, if they are too ostentatious, are ostracized or killed. I refer you to Plato’s allegory of the cave and Christ’s crucifixion, even Buddha experienced persecution and Hui-Neng was persecuted by his fellow students when they were offended that he was given his master’s bowl and cloak. That is one reason why Lao Tzu and other Taoists preferred out of the way places.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi GDA,


i disagree that clinging/shenpa is the only source of karma. while i admit i'm not extensively learned on the subject, i see karma more as consequences for actions - regarless of intent. not that karma works as a punishment / reward system, just that everything has a cause and an effect. karma is simply the causal relationship between our actions and our lives. i hear what your saying about shenpa, but for me personally its more comforting to think that i somehow chose the circumstances in my life through my actions, the one thing i have control over, vs my thoughts/emotions/clinging/etc which i have no control over. i could be off base, but this is where im at today.

i also think that homeless people should be used to help eliminate world hunger.

There is “cause and effect” of the material world and there is “cause and effect” of the mind.

When we cling emotionally or mentally to anything we create a consequence that binds us to the world of illusion. This is “cause and effect” of the mind. The act of clinging “causes” the “effect” of karma. Karma, within this context, is a mental bondage to the world system, which is slavery to illusion.

Think of an actor in a movie who does not remember it is pretend. He thinks the events are real even though they are just pretend. Let us say in the movie this actor’s movie daughter dies in a horrible accident. Since he has forgotten it is all just pretend, he will react as if his “real” daughter has “truly” died. He is bound by the illusion due to his act of mental clinging. Since he believes it is real, it creates a karmic consequence. It is real for him and he suffers the consequences of his clinging to it as reality; this IS the creation of karma. His clinging to a false reality created emotional consequences that would not occur if he had recognized it was all just pretend! When we cling to the illusion of life we suffer the consequences that come from that clinging, those consequences are karma. No clinging, no consequences, no karma!

On the material plane there is also cause and effect, if I hit may hand with a hammer, it will hurt. If I commit a crime and get caught, I will suffer the consequences of the law, even it the laws are arbitrary and inherently illusive. This is karma of a difference sort and is not inherently related to karma caused by clinging. If there is no clinging, we do not accrue karma of this sort, while we are still subject to the physical and social “cause and effect” consequences of the material world system, which can be referred to as karma, but it is of a different sort.


. . .. but isn't the idea to abandon the notion of fixing your emotions and thoughts? to accept them as natural for you in the moment and focus instead on how you react to them, or better yet on not reacting to them?

To be mindful of our thoughts is a tool that may be used to transcend their control over us. The only control our thoughts have is the control we give them by clinging to them. It is believed that once we are aware/mindful of our thoughts we will recognize their inherent illusory nature and therefore, the futility of clinging to them.

Clinging, then, becomes a volitional act, once it is volitional we are free to choose not to cling. For most of us, clinging occurs automatically; it occurs as a consequence of conditioning and becomes an habitual act, that is, we have no conscious choice over it. By being mindful of our thoughts, we are able to make the conscious choice not to cling; with conscious choice clinging is no longer an habitual compulsion over which we have no control.

[cjurakpt]

in concrete terms, the notion of "karma", as Scott has noted at the end of the previous post, can be considered in terms of habitual function: if I have become (for whatever reason) conditioned to react in a certain way to a certain set of circumstances, then my capacity to respond out of choice to that (or a similar) situation is limited by my function out of that habit; for example, if everytime I get stressed I bite my nails without consciously choosing to do so, that is reactionary; if everytime I get into an argument with my spouse / child I physically strike them out of anger, that is reactionary; if everytime I feel stressed at work I have to drink a six-pack, that is reactionary;

this is not to say that any of these things, in a different context is necessarily good or bad per se: to varying degrees, these actions might, under certain specific circumstances, be exactly what is necessary; the "problem" is when they are a knee-jerk, unconscious response (a hint as to whether this is the case is if and the degree to which we feel remorse afterwards, and also how we then deal with that remorse as well...)

training mindfulness seeks to enable us create one thing, and one thing alone: a pause; that is, a brief moment during which we might refrain from our unconscious habit to consider out of what ground our reaction arises; if we act out of this pause, then we become responsive as opposed to reactive; as the Ch'an story goes, the difference between the gates of hell and the gates of heaven is one second (or something like that...)

just some thoughts...