Traditional weapons questions

[Hebrew Hammer]

In my brief stint in Choy Lee Fut, I asked one my instructors about the small rings attached to top side of chinese sword...he stated that they were used to entangle an opponents weapon. But how? The rings are pretty small and it would be hard to imagine what might get caught in there...can someone shed some light on that for me?

My second question is in regards to chinese archery and TCM...are there any styles that incorporate bow and arrow training? If not why? Is it a cost issue or where there restrictions imposed on the the people that only allowed for archery to be praticed by the military? It seems that some of the Korean and Japanese arts include archery as part of their curriculum.

[SimonM]

Do you mean the rings on the 9 Ring broadsword? AFAIK those were decorative.

[Lucas]

I always thought the rings were also there for the added weight. easier to chop through leather/bamboo armor and bone.

however if you were to lock blades withsomeone, and were to have rings, I could see how the blade would be stopped from reaching your guard. keep in mind you would have to reverse your blade though, which I dont think I would want to do.

[uki]

AFAIK those were decorative.don't you research anything?

[Hebrew Hammer]

Do you mean the rings on the 9 Ring broadsword? AFAIK those were decorative.

Yes...decorative? You mean like a nose ring? :confused: Are you sure about that?

[SimonM]

I've heard the weapon entangling theory. It doesn't hold water.
As for the added weight argument... it's slightly less unlikely but it's a bit impractical.

Now the 9 ring was originally an executioner's weapon. As such it's use was frequently ceremonial. Ceremonial weapons frequent gain adornments that are largely there just because.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I always thought the rings were also there for the added weight. easier to chop through leather/bamboo armor and bone.

If thats true, why not just use a heavier or thicker blade? The rings rattle, make noise, you would think that they aren't the most stealthy of items to bring into battle. Or is that their appeal/function...cause fear or to help locate someone in battle?

[xcakid]

1) added weight as already mention, to help chop through light armor and bone.
2) to blunt the other guys sword, not to tangle it with. In many forms there is a move where you encirle the sword (with the point pointing downward) around your body and then slash. The encircling is blocking with the blunt end of the sword, coming around and then slashing to the neck or ribs or any limbs that get in the way.

That's at least the application I learned in both my former Eagle Claw school and the current Long Fist school that I am now. 2 different northern schools yet same application and concept, there must be something to it.

[TenTigers]

ok, just how blunt do you need to make a sword before it won't harm you? Anyone who has ever handled a blade, be it a broadsword or a kitchen knife knows that a dull knife will cut you.
As far as entangling a weapon in the rings? Great. Now You're stuck as well.
And how exactly will a weapon get tangled? Even if it was the hairs on a spear, you would have to wrap and wind it many times to entangle it-unless the tip of the spear got caught right inside one of those little rings...remember-this is all going on in the heat of battle.
you see how silly this sounds?

Ok, here's what I heard, tell me if it sounds at least a bit probable:
There were large cadres of soldiers, such as the Big Sword Group. and they carried..um, big swords. So as these batttalions approached, their rings would make all this clamour, just as the American helicopters playing Vagner's Flight of the Valkyries in Apocalypse Now, as they launched their attack. It had a psychological effect on the enemy.

Now, the earrings on the Monk's Spade, the pom-poms on the Kuan-dao?
I think that was just good fashion sense. You need to accessorize!

[SanHeChuan]

One thousand soldiers with one thousand nine ring broadswords sound like Ten thousand soldiers. When dealing with formations of troops stealth is not an issue. Better then to be feared. It was common practice for armies to make alot of noise, marching in step, banging of shields, drums and horns, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h5wHsWkFts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PG0RnlvzmY

[TenTigers]

let me add to this-there are many people who say that the horse hair on the end of the spear was there to soak up the blood, so that it doesn't run down the shaft and get sticky.
I don't buy into this theory for two reasons:
1) a spear is a razor sharp double edged blade, on the end of a long pole. All you need is a flick to sever tendons and arteries. Not enough to get gobs of blood dripping down the shaft. As far as thrusting goes-you thrust quickly, in and out. Again, blood doesn't pool immediately, and there is not enough blood left on the spear to warrant this. Besides, using a snapping movement like chiburi in Iaido, would remedy this, and there are plenty of snapping movements in the spear.

2) A spear is played with constant quick circling, and darting in and out. The hairs serve as a distraction. Your eyes will track the hairs, and lose sight of the blade-which when coming at you is hard to see anyway. So you cannot judge the distance, or tracking of the blade. Try it. Face a partner who has decent spear play, and see if you can follow the blade's movenet as he approaches yo with all the in and out, circling, and darting movements.
Form follows function.

[SimonM]

San He Chuan: Sunzi would have disagreed with that assertation. Moving troops secretly is one of the best ways to win a war.

[Lucas]

there is a time and place for everything of course though.

while secrecy is definately a boon while maneuvering, once engagement has taken place, its not a bad idea to seem more than you are.


such as lighting 3 times as many camp fires at night, so as to appear a larger force.


TenTigers;

Im with you on that one. Besides if there was so much blood that it needed to be soaked up by the hair, eventually the hair would be come sodden with blood and it would no longer serve its intended purpose.

[TenTigers]

I guess then you then can use it to fling blood in their faces!!:D

(I almost wrote feces rather than faces. That would require an entirely different technique):eek:

[Lucas]

I guess then you then can use it to fling blood in their faces!!:D

(I almost wrote feces rather than faces. That would require an entirely different technique):eek:

ROFL

"and this move we call, 'the tiger flings blood into the feces', now you try"

[SimonM]

I'd be more concerned with flinging feces into blood.

[Lucas]

I'd be more concerned with flinging feces into blood.

:eek:

"and this we call 'infect with hepatitis', now you try"

[David Jamieson]

moving troops secretly is strategy, inciting fear with them is tactics. :)

the rings are noise makers. they make noise for all sorts of reasons. You can also tie decorative flags to them, which in turn helps identify you on a battle field etc etc.

also, it may have to do with the buddhist ideal that they are used in a spiritual sense.

[SanHeChuan]

San He Chuan: Sunzi would have disagreed with that assertation. Moving troops secretly is one of the best ways to win a war.

secretly and stealth are not always the same thing.

You cannot conceal the movement of a large body of troops, as long as there is someone to observe them. Thousands of armored troops, horses, supply wagons, camps, etc. If the enemy is not close it doesn't matter how loud they are, they will not be heard. The trick is to use the stealthy guys to take out the enemies forward observes so the enemy does not know of your passing.

Or better yet, as Sunzi would say, go where they are not looking.

[GeneChing]

...I can't find that thread right now. I'm still looking.

As for archery, there's this thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37406). We also ran The Missing Link: Archery in China By Tim Louie in our 2007 March/April issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=693).

[Hebrew Hammer]

Thanks Gene, that is a very interesting and informative thread.

[GeneChing]

I hope he's right. But speaking as a martial arts weapons vendor for 35+ years, I'm skeptical. It reminds me of one of those pitches you sell to the PRC market when they have no sense of the global market.



Traditional Martial Arts Weapons Market is Projected to Grow Massively in Near Future with Profiling Eminent Players- WESING, DA YE HENG TONG, JIANG SHI SWORD (https://www.mccourier.com/traditional-martial-arts-weapons-market-is-projected-to-grow-massively-in-near-future-with-profiling-eminent-players-wesing-da-ye-heng-tong-jiang-shi-sword/)
husain December 28, 2020 4
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Section (5 6 7): Product Type Segmentation
Martial Arts Knife
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Industry Segmentation
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