Learning without a Teacher. [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hebrew Hammer

09-17-2008, 12:56 PM

Here is my two cents worth...

Do you have prior Martial Arts experience? If so you can practice/perfect the skills you already have by perfroming kata/forms or whatever at home...

Work on your physical conditioning...buy some gear from say MartialArtsMart.com (nice plug eh) set up a mini gym at your house...do some bag work, jump rope, agility drills, running, flexibility etc...physiscal condition is one of the biggest factors in becoming a better martial artist.

Secondly, go check out that Karate school, beggars can't be choosers. According to martial arts lore, Karate was derived from Chinese styles...every style has something to offer, you might even learn something new, and make some new friends in the process.

Lucas

09-17-2008, 01:07 PM

if i had nothing but a lousy McDojo around, I would still go to at least spar.

good karate can produce some good fighters. and there is something to be said for the power in a good karateka

jdhowland

09-17-2008, 01:50 PM

I live out in the middle of no where.

Hey, I've been there! I'm from West Nowhere, myself.

All the above is good advice. If you are afraid that karatedo will give you bad habits, don't worry about it until you have decided on a particular style/tradition that you like better. The training can be valuable as long as it is a self-consistent system (not a hodgepodge of someone's collected techniques).

And don't be in a hurry. You can develop superb gung fu just by emphasizing strength, suppleness and endurance training for a couple of years without regard to striking methods. If you don't get into a class, find someone to wrestle with, any style. It will give you a sense of range and body placement that can apply to any gung fu system.

Good luck.

jd

MightyB

09-17-2008, 02:33 PM

It's going to be difficult- but like the rest of the posters said- it can be done with video tape. At least the basics. Forms/Sets are really for teaching beginners- and if you are honest with yourself and in not too much of a hurry to get through a couple of forms from a good video source- you should be able to get the basic movements down. The best advice I can give is that with a teacher- you learn about 3 or 4 moves from a set a week so that you can spend time perfecting the form. So use that as a general rule. If you have a form on tape that you're learning- pace yourself so that you can spend a lot of time paying attention to a short series of movements. Don't just rush through the tape so you can say- hey- I know this form. Slow down- break it down- take at least a month to learn each new form.

Then work on your flexibility and explosive movement- read everything you can- and find a teacher as soon as possible.

TenTigers

09-17-2008, 02:44 PM

about vids-although I am a Hung-Ga practitioner, I would highly recommend Doc Fai-Wong's videos. Ng Lun Ma (Five wheel horse) and Ng Lun Choy (Five wheel fist) are excellent training forms to establish a strong horse, supple waist and shoulders, and great movement.
They would be considered the Southern version of Tan Tuie. From that foundation, you can go anywhere.
BTW-if you're looking for Northern, find a good Tan Tuie video

RD'S Alias - 1A

09-17-2008, 02:48 PM

I have done both, learned form books and videos, AND had great teachers.

I have found that I got the best education from study under great teachers, BUT I have had the greatest break throughs, through my own practice and independent study.

Books and vids are good to pick up forms. I myself am particularly giifted in working out forms from books, and can often do them better that way than others can learning from a teacher. However I really needed live coaching on fundamentals, and applied skills to reach my best when it came to usage.

At some point, just a training partner can take you places neither books, or teachers can as well.

For me, all 3 were what it took to really "Get it".

David Jamieson

09-17-2008, 03:00 PM

if yer a total newb, check out the karate class.

don't bother starting from scratch with only resource materials. You will waste your time.

If you have prior background and understanding of the mechanics of fighting, then by all means, crack a book and try, watch a vid, pay attention and give it a go.

and definitely, it helps to train with someone, if you are in a vacuum there is little if any value to be had from training in stylistic stuff. But you can get a heavy bag, some weights, some mats and get a head start on things as well.

SanHeChuan

09-17-2008, 03:37 PM

Train the karate, when you get the chance train something else. If you're always waiting to start because you can't find the right school you may never get started, or at least end up regretting the time wasted.

When I was in Okinawa I didn't train because I only wanted to do kung fu. When I got back to the states the only option for me was still Okinawan karate, so I gave in a trained that, and then regretted the time I wasted not training anything.

TenTigers

09-17-2008, 03:38 PM

ahh, yes, I forgot about the Karate school.
What style and what school? In most cases, you should enroll and get a strong foundation.
BUT, I have seen some really poor schools, who by being McDojos, turned out students with weak, incorrect stances, zero structure, improper punches, and these bad habits could very well be ingrained in you for a long time, and actually ruin your chances of development.

Lucas

09-17-2008, 03:41 PM

does that school have a website by chance, we love to scrutinize prospective training grounds. :D

WhitePanda

09-17-2008, 05:45 PM

iron_leg_dave

09-17-2008, 06:40 PM

The Karate school is pretty good. It is Chito-ryu, okinawan style karate. I have studied there on and off when I was younger, but I have been moving/traveling so much the last 4yrs I couldn't advance past yellow belt.

I also have about 2 years of TKD experience, but again to unforeseen cercumstances I only have my yellow belt in that as well.

This winter I'll be going to thailand to train in MT and China hopefully to learn some kung fu.

I am also recovering from a broken hand, so I can't punch anything but the air(even a tad hesitant to do that at full speed). Not to mention I am about 30 to 40lbs over weight.

I really love practicing martial arts and I would absolutely hate to give it up.

No doubt.

Here is the thing to do. For real.

Do whatever you want to do in thailand for muay thai, when you get back to wherever you're staying, right everything you can remember down, which should take you an hour or more.

When you get to china, don't look for kung fu, look for the internal styles, look for the bagua which might be "pa kua", tai qi, and h'sing yi/ xing yi. Schools are all over the place in both the mainland and hong kong. When you start, do the same thing, write everything down. But this time, when your done taking notes, write down every question you can think of that night, and bring the paper in, and ask your teacher for the answers. Write the answers down. If there is a misunderstanding explain your situation to your translater or the teacher if he speaks english.

Write every single point, no matter how seemingly irrelevent, that you you can recall from your experience down. Really study hard. Not forceably, just intently. If you can draw, draw some ****, not to look at later and learn from but to help you remember the actual class.

Whenever you are with the teacher, ask him to manually coreect your posture. After you have done your writing, ease into those postures and hold them while you count six breaths.

When you get back to the U.S, seek advice from this or another genuine chinese gong fu forum, and explain what you did.

Peace.

-Dave

RD'S Alias - 1A

09-17-2008, 07:05 PM

Video everything you learn as soon as you can after learning it.

Years later you will look back on it and cringe over how much you suck, but it's a great thing to reference when it is still all new to you.

I have some absolutely horrifying video of myself from 12-14 years ago when i was first learning my current system. still, I occasionally review it and it always reminds me of good things I nearly forgot about.

IronWeasel

09-17-2008, 07:09 PM

I live out in the middle of no where.

What else can I do?

...Move....

Eddie

09-18-2008, 08:03 AM

I saw a whole collection of teach yourself TKD (up to black belt) VCD;s at Hankou (in wuhan) Wall mart yesterday. Im considering learning this so I can teach TKD in China. Seems like theres a bigger market in China for TKD than for CMA.

;-)

TenTigers

09-18-2008, 08:05 AM

Xiao3 Meng4

09-18-2008, 09:02 AM

SimonM

09-18-2008, 09:09 AM

The other thing is that right now South Korea is a massive cultural exporter to China.

Korean food, fashion, television, movies and martial arts are all immensely popular with Chinese youth who, thanks to the 4-2-1 problem, are increasingly able to allocate time and money to pop culture. Japan is still pretty widely hated and the whole pop culture thing is pretty new still in China. So they pick it up out of Hong Kong and South Korea, where the greater affluence over the past 20 years has allowed pop culture to flourish.

TenTigers

09-18-2008, 09:27 AM

I was actually told that in China, non-chinese MA are more popular among parents who want to send their kids to some kind of MA because the non-chinese MA are less likely to be assosciated with Triads. (?) Apparently, CMA actually has a continuing rep of being assosciated with gangs, especially in HK. Whether or not that's still the case, I don't know, but it was the explanation given to me regarding the popularity of non-chinese MA in china. :p

It happens here in the US as well. I had a Chinese family come in and the father asked me who I was with.
I started to mention my Sifu, and he said,"No. Who are you with?"

So I told him I was Libertarian, and he stormed out.
F****in liberals.

uki

09-18-2008, 02:19 PM

David Jamieson

09-18-2008, 03:13 PM

most martial arts styles were created by individuals who developed methods and techniques all by themselves... the only true master is the one which dwells in each of us, just waiting to be discovered. you are what you practice... practice someone elses style and you'll be somebody elses martial artist. :)

well, they weren't practicing in a vacuum and had to figure out how to actually dominate in a fight.

this was not done in solo fashion and the whole idea of empty hand forms to supplement this only has come about recently relative to the overall development of martial arts.

so, for empty hand, the rules then were the same as now when it comes to solid application, IE: in your head is no good / actual application is where it's at.

so, yes, people fashioned martial arts back in the day, but they came from practical experience and not from reading books with forms and definitely not from watching. All real learning comes from doing and if you are stuck "doing" with inferiors and misunderstood methods then that is the fruit that your tree will bear, IE: inferior and misunderstood.

iron_leg_dave

09-18-2008, 05:38 PM

naja

09-18-2008, 05:59 PM

I live out in the middle of no where. There are is only one martial arts school with in driving distance. They teach karate there, not kung fu.

Not to mention I am about 30 to 40lbs over weight.

Go to the karate class. It may not be what you ultimately want to learn, but you will still learn something, if the school is worth its salt. You should at the very least get some of the extra weight off, which will help when you travel to study the other arts.

uki

09-18-2008, 06:17 PM

well, they weren't practicing in a vacuum and had to figure out how to actually dominate in a fight.and each of them had to do it on an individual basis... there are many like body types and even more like minds, but i believ e it was those who delved deeper than what was established and found something new... this is why martial arts keep evolving.

this was not done in solo fashionyet most of the time it is... most practice time for any martial artist is by oneself.

and the whole idea of empty hand forms to supplement this only has come about recently relative to the overall development of martial arts.only because it was forgotten for a time...

so, for empty hand, the rules then were the same as now when it comes to solid application, IE: in your head is no good / actual application is where it's at.i beg to differ... mind is the path. the human mind is a super-computer and when it is open, all avenues of possibility and thought are understood. one can program oneself for any confrontation provided one can visualize the concepts.

so, yes, people fashioned martial arts back in the day, and they are still fashioning it now.

but they came from practical experience and not from reading books with forms and definitely not from watching. it comes from practicing with your mind, body, and spirit.

All real learning comes from doing and if you are stuck "doing" with inferiors and misunderstood methods then that is the fruit that your tree will bear, IE: inferior and misunderstood.depends one what ones definition of inferior is... one mans trash is another mans treasure.

Lol, martial arts were all developed over generations.after generations of individuals...

Someone has to been watching too much "kung fu panda".haven't seen it yet... hope i didn't spoil your attempt at a snide remark.:p

David Jamieson

09-19-2008, 05:35 AM

Uki, despite your begging to differ, it doesn't change the fact that that was then, this is now, but the continuum of it is same/same.

You simply cannot learn in a vacuum, you will learn less from an inferior partner and even less again if only staying within the boundaries of your own mind.

when it comes to actual martial art, the greatest teacher is loss. You cannot lose unless you are doing and if you are not doing, you are neither winning or losing which are the only two extremes at the end of a martial contact and the only things one trains for.

If you stay in your head, you lose, if you reach out and "be" then your opportunity to win is greater.

Martial arts is what it is. there's no need to take something that is inherently simple and to layer all the dreck of soft philosophy on top of it. It's an insult to everyone who's ever raised a hand or arms in the defense of others or themselves.

SimonM

09-19-2008, 08:00 AM

What it comes down to is that to do is the best way to learn.

If you want to be a good painter you have to paint.
If you want to be a good hiker you have to hike.
If you want to be a good mathematician you have to do math.
If you want to be good at waving your hands around in the air in a graceful way you should do forms.
If you want to be good at fighting you have to fight.

uki

09-19-2008, 12:39 PM

If you want to be good at fighting you have to fight.a good fighter doesn't need to fight.

Uki, despite your begging to differ, it doesn't change the fact that that was then, this is now, but the continuum of it is same/same.whatever happened to the fact that history, does infact... repeat itself...

You simply cannot learn in a vacuum, you will learn less from an inferior partner and even less again if only staying within the boundaries of your own mind.an open mind has no boundries.

when it comes to actual martial art, the greatest teacher is loss.no. the greatest teacher is nature.

You cannot lose unless you are doing and if you are not doing, you are neither winning or losing which are the only two extremes at the end of a martial contact and the only things one trains for.i train to express myself. it's not about winning and losing, it's about creating peace within your being.

If you stay in your head, you lose, if you reach out and "be" then your opportunity to win is greater.if one is not seeking to win... this line of thought becomes useless...

Martial arts is what it is. it is what one makes it.

there's no need to take something that is inherently simple and to layer all the dreck of soft philosophy on top of it. why so? just flour and water makes a bread, but it will taste rather bland... might aswell spice it up with whatever you have in the spice rack.

It's an insult to everyone who's ever raised a hand or arms in the defense of others or themselves.perhaps those who feel insulted should change their perception... i have learned that not taking anything personally leads to a stressfree life.

SimonM

09-19-2008, 01:39 PM

Let me rephrase this for the space cadets in the room:

To become a good fighter you have to fight.

There, does that satisfy you are do you want to spend some more time in fantasy land of mystically communicated magic martial arts taught by the wind.

uki

09-19-2008, 02:58 PM

To become a good fighter you have to fight.let me rephrase my previous reply... a good fighter doesn't need to fight.

There, does that satisfy you are do you want to spend some more time in fantasy land of mystically communicated magic martial arts taught by the wind.i am not satisfyed... i like my lessons from the wind much better.:p

1000 years of experience can manifest in an instant.

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 03:48 PM

let me rephrase my previous reply... a good fighter doesn't need to fight.

it's a question of what makes "good"

one can contemplate a single sword stroke in isolation for twenty years; one can train this contemplation to the point where the ego that apprehends the perfection thereof has completely melted away; one can then face a person in combat without fear of preserving or loosing; what actually happens will not matter to "you", because "you" are no longer there; the outcome is irrelevant; this is the absolute, which is the ground out of which all existence springs and returns; it is, inherently, neither good, nor bad; and as such, there is no need to fight, for there is nothing against which to do so

but we also live in the relative, and the provenance by which the absolute functions is necessarily diverged in the objectivity of the relative, the realm within which comparison is generated in order to continually create and destroy; if we construe such terms as "good" or "bad", we are by necessity in the realm of the comparative; as such, the term "good" exists only in contrast to another which creates the condition of it's temporary assignation; without comparison, there is no demarcation; and thus, by virtue of it's own function, to be "good" needs must have first been compared to another and achieved some predetermined benchmark in a manner more expediently o more completely than its adversary;

in the absolute, there is no conflict, no need, because that which cannot observe itself lacks the generative principle;

in the relative, there can only be comparison, conflict, resolution - it is the imperative of the pre-condition;

so "good" is relative, in the sense that whoever defines it according to their needs does so at their own behest; if all the world agrees that a "good" fighter is the one left standing following a match, I can still disagree and it ultimately makes no difference save that I will be alone in that estimation...

unkokusai

09-19-2008, 03:50 PM

a good fighter doesn't need to fight.

whatever happened to the fact that history, does infact... repeat itself...
an open mind has no boundries.
no. the greatest teacher is nature.
i train to express myself. it's not about winning and losing, it's about creating peace within your being.
if one is not seeking to win... this line of thought becomes useless...
it is what one makes it.
why so? just flour and water makes a bread, but it will taste rather bland... might aswell spice it up with whatever you have in the spice rack.
perhaps those who feel insulted should change their perception... i have learned that not taking anything personally leads to a stressfree life.

The above post may be used in the case of accidental poisoning to induce vomiting.

unkokusai

09-19-2008, 03:52 PM

let me rephrase my previous reply... a good fighter doesn't need to fight.
i am not satisfyed... i like my lessons from the wind much better.:p

1000 years of experience can manifest in an instant.

1 minute of pretentious bull**** can nauseate in an instant. :rolleyes:

uki

09-19-2008, 04:34 PM

1 minute of pretentious bull**** can nauseate in an instant. only to those with a weak stomach. :)

if all the world agrees that a "good" fighter is the one left standing following a match, I can still disagree and it ultimately makes no difference save that I will be alone in that estimation...a good fighter doesn't fight... period. even in confrontational situations it is not actually a fight... it's practice. there is nothing to fight when you embrace this aspect of being. fighting satisfies the ego... practice satisfies the being.

unkokusai

09-19-2008, 04:51 PM

Holy leapin' LARPin' loser, Batman!

iron_leg_dave

09-19-2008, 05:11 PM

Holy leapin' LARPin' loser, Batman!

lol

Got Reality?

If so, could you share a glass with uki?

unkokusai

09-19-2008, 05:16 PM

lol

Got Reality?

If so, could you share a glass with uki?

I don't think he's developed a taste for it yet.

Lucas

09-19-2008, 05:35 PM

I dont think Uki is saying that one should never fight, but rather that when you are fighting, it is not to be as fighting, you are simply doing.

example: when you are walking, do you think " i am walking, i am walking, i am walking, must be good at walking" or do you just do it.

this is a pretty well known mindframe though. history is wrought with men who have killed in combat and have stated such as this in their martial doctrines.

Miyamoto Musashi comes to mind.....

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 05:53 PM

this:

a good fighter doesn't fight... period. even in confrontational situations it is not actually a fight... it's practice. there is nothing to fight when you embrace this aspect of being. fighting satisfies the ego... practice satisfies the being.

is essentially an example of this:

one can contemplate a single sword stroke in isolation for twenty years; one can train this contemplation to the point where the ego that apprehends the perfection thereof has completely melted away; one can then face a person in combat without fear of preserving or loosing; what actually happens will not matter to "you", because "you" are no longer there; the outcome is irrelevant; this is the absolute, which is the ground out of which all existence springs and returns; it is, inherently, neither good, nor bad; and as such, there is no need to fight, for there is nothing against which to do so

and this:

in the absolute, there is no conflict, no need, because that which cannot observe itself lacks the generative principle;

the only difference is then you have to necessarily take out the qualifier "good" (as well as the notion of "satisfaction" which is also an inherently dualistic proposition); you can't use the relative to qualify the absolute, plain and simple; so to say that someone is a "good" fighter, you are necessarily invoking the duality of "good" / "bad". and as such, are now beholden to whatever relative criteria encompass these terms; such is the nature of going down into the weeds...

nevertheless, we cannot eschew that fact that we exist within the confines, so to speak, of the relative; meaning that in order to survive in the current physical reality that we find ourselves within, and dualistic functioning is the means by which we do so; by the above definition of a "good fighter" as one for whom fighting is merely practice, it does not hold out the proposition of whether or not the fighter actually wins any of his "fights"; now of course, one can maintain that "winning" and "loosing" are also illusions, and that is true, ultimately; one would then have to concur that, if there is no attachment to winning or loosing, then the "fighter" wouldn't care whether he beat down his "opponent" or got his face smashed in - now be honest: what would be the point of training martially for the latter outcome? somewhat of a contradiction, right? since we do train martially, the implication is that we are training in order NOT to get our faces bashed in by another; I mean, we admit the possibility of having our butt handed to us, but if / when that happens, it spurs us on even harder towards achieving the opposite;

my point is that to use the totality of the absolute to move beyond the limits of the relative is a mistake: one can fight from an ego-less state and be either a "good" fighter (meaning one who "wins") or a "bad" fighter (one who "looses"); that may change from day to do, or be the same every time; but one is not a precondition of the other;

Lucas

09-19-2008, 05:57 PM

but can one be fighting from this ego-less state, yet how ever be considered "good" from outside sources.

So could they in turn be a good fighter, though they themselves do not recognize such?

but if this were the case, what would happen if one were to inform them that they are in fact very 'good' at fighting?

would the world implode? :eek:

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 05:58 PM

I dont think Uki is saying that one should never fight, but rather that when you are fighting, it is not to be as fighting, you are simply doing.
and the way to train that is to acclimate oneself in such a way that it becomes similar to other things we do all day; some would argue that solo practice (e.g. - meditation, etc.) is sufficient; others would argue one has to engage in live, pressure-testing against resisting opponents in a scenario as close to that "reality" as possible

I would suggest that both are necessary...

Lucas

09-19-2008, 05:58 PM

also does the simple fact that were are conversing about this corrupt us???:confused:

Lucas

09-19-2008, 05:59 PM

and the way to train that is to acclimate oneself in such a way that it becomes similar to other things we do all day; some would argue that solo practice (e.g. - meditation, etc.) is sufficient; others would argue one has to engage in live, pressure-testing against resisting opponents in a scenario as close to that "reality" as possible

I would suggest that both are necessary...

it would be beneficiary to recieve as much training from as many 'good' (theres that word again) sources as possible

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 06:05 PM

but can one be fighting from this ego-less state, yet how ever be considered "good" from outside sources.
a "good" fighter has necessarily been evaluated by a set of externally generated criteria; if someone doesn't care if they are "good" or not, they will typically not enter into a situation where their performance can be evaluated in that regard; and this may not matter to them, which is fine: I can practice my forms, train hard etc. on my own, and be in harmony and at perfect peace with myself and surroundings; but I also have to admit that I would have no idea how I might do against a resisting opponent; of course, it doesn't mean I might never win a fight either - there is something to said for the development of equanimity in the way; but this person would never qualify this particular approach as "good" because they would be beyond attachment and the relative - they might go so far as to say that this approach was "good" for them, and that would be true; but no further...

I think that is where the danger lies - when one hits on what is right for them, one has to be careful not to extrapolate that onto anyone else;

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 06:08 PM

also does the simple fact that were are conversing about this corrupt us???:confused:

of course - hence the expression "going down into the weeds" - it's a Ch'an metaphor (ok, here I go, giving away the "good" stuff) for the use of language to teach: essentially every time you open your mouth you put your foot into it; which is why a lot of the Ch'an teachers preferred to teach via shouting, holding up a finger, blowing out a lantern at night, twirling a cat by its tail, slamming a door on someone's foot, etc. - by teaching directly in this way, they avoid the pitfalls inherent to language

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 06:19 PM

if someone doesn't care if they are "good" or not, they will typically not enter into a situation where their performance can be evaluated in that regard;

now I will give an example of how I think this could be accomplished, such that someone can engage in a "competative" event without concern for the outcome: a few years ago I participated in a tournament, demonstrating a sword form I created (on a mountain, at night, during a thunder / lighting storm); it was a direct personal expression of where I was "at" at the time; I had no plans for this form per se, but as it turned out, my step-daughter was competing at a tournament in Atlantic City with her TKD school and I was the one driving her there; so I figured, why not, let me "compete"; I honestly didn't care if I won or not, my whole perspective was this: let me share with whoever is interested what I have - maybe fate will make it so that someone with similar tastes will be there and see me do my thing and we would have a nice chat / sharing afterwards as a result - (which is pretty much what happened)- so there was a concept of community attached to my impetus; as it turns out, I won the division (geriatric weapons) I competed in; and I know the form was "good"; why? because of where it came from, and what I did with it - it was "good" in context of the criteria I attached to it; now, if you have been paying attention, you will note I sort of contradict myself here - because I still went in with a set of criteria for "success" - but they were not comparative relative to the performances of the other competitors, and in a sense were met before I moved one inch into the form...

FWIW, I never competed with that form again, nor will I ever: because if I did the form purely out of "using" it to win, then my heart wouldn't be in it, it would be like tasting a meal I had eaten the day before and regurgitated (more Ch'an imagery) - yuck! if I ever do so in the future, it will be because I have something I wish to share and that's that

I am sure that I am not the first nor last person ever to have had this experience, BTW

now that you know of my perfect equanimity, feel free to adulate...

SanHeChuan

09-19-2008, 08:17 PM

I often compete without care as to the outcome. To me the biggest reward of winning is that you often times get to play longer. :D

I dont really know how this applies to this conversation, but then again I dont really care. :D

unkokusai

09-19-2008, 08:45 PM

I participated in a tournament, demonstrating a sword form I created (on a mountain, at night, during a thunder / lighting storm);...

....................................... please say you are kidding

.............please

cjurakpt

09-19-2008, 09:17 PM

....................................... please say you are kidding

.............please

ok; I'm kidding;

uki

09-20-2008, 03:51 AM

funny the power of one word can have... no wonder people are always at war.

iron_leg_dave

09-20-2008, 04:50 AM

....................................... please say you are kidding

.............please

This forum is rediculously entertaining lately.

Who's seen Napolean Dynamite?

"Bow, to your sensei!"

"Well... I'm pretty good with a bostaff"

uki

09-20-2008, 04:54 AM

This forum is rediculously entertaining lately.
just the way it should be... if we weren't all having fun, we'd all wouldn't be here.:)

cjurakpt

09-20-2008, 01:26 PM

a few years ago I participated in a tournament, demonstrating a sword form I created (on a mountain, at night, during a thunder / lighting storm);

....................................... please say you are kidding
.............please

ya know, I'm a curious guy by nature - just wondering, without any rancor, what it is exactly about this that you found troubling?

unkokusai

09-20-2008, 01:48 PM

ya know, I'm a curious guy by nature - just wondering, without any rancor, what it is exactly about this that you found troubling?

Leaving aside all that wrong with the idea of 'making up' a sword form in one night.

I just didn't want to believe you could really be such a melodramatic dope.

iron_leg_dave

09-20-2008, 04:26 PM

Leaving aside all that wrong with the idea of 'making up' a sword form in one night.

I just didn't want to believe you could really be such a melodramatic dope.

Seriously though, and don't drag kung fu into your BS. There is no way someone that clueless actually was actually taught some kung fu. This is why there should be a governing body.

Very offensive, the whole idea.

Get a grip.

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 03:41 PM

Leaving aside all that wrong with the idea of 'making up' a sword form in one night.
ok, to be fair, the process took place over the course of ~4 days, during a Taoist meditation retreat I assisted my teacher at on a mountain in Tuscanny in July 2003 (no, we slept inside in a building and ate "real" food), so I certainly was very "in the zone" w/the whole process; the form was ~25 - 30 moves and was the template I used for the eventually somewhat longer form I did at the tournament; and it certainly did not spring ex nihilo, but was a fusion of concepts that included moves from different sword forms I had learned previously and practiced for between ~3 to 15 years respectively, as well as some other Taoist-based movements; the thunder / lightning storm took place on the last night of the retreat which was when I did the form in front of the other retreat participants and it was not directly overhead, but probably about 20 miles away; although it included a section that I purposefully left "blank" in order to allow for a brief period of "spontaneous" movement (which, if you are familiar with classical Taoist training, is considered to be a component of that practice)

I just didn't want to believe you could really be such a melodramatic dope.
it was done in context of a Taoist meditation retreat at the behest and support of my teacher, as an indication of where I was "at" at that point in my studies w/him; I really don't construe it as indicative of anything else beyond that (e.g. - that I now have magic powers, that I am more sensitive/holistic/enlightened/prone to fits of creative dance on crowded Manhattan streets than someone else, that I can now singlehandedly fight off an army of orcs, etc.); so I don't quite get why there would be any melodrama associated w/the whole notion - it was what it was, I really never thought it was that big of a deal, I brought it up in context of making a point about the nature of ego / competition (I think...)

Seriously though, and don't drag kung fu into your BS. There is no way someone that clueless actually was actually taught some kung fu.
you are right; that said, I'm going to talk to my current sifu of 15 yrs. and demand a refund; I'd also go ask my other 3 Chinese teachers from before I studied with him, but they unfortunately have all passed away, so I guess that the joke is on me...

This is why there should be a governing body.
seriously?

Very offensive, the whole idea.
why? I apologize if I have offended you in any way, it was not my intention to do so

uki

09-21-2008, 03:54 PM

I apologize if I have offended you in any way, it was not my intention to do sowhy would you waste energy apologizing for something you don't regret in any way? aside from political correctness... it serves no purpose; those who take offense have their own issues to resolve...

just thought i'd chime in. GONG!!!

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 04:43 PM

I don't quite get why there would be any melodrama associated w/the whole notion -

If you didn't intend to be dramatic why did you even mention the setting & weather?

uki

09-21-2008, 05:35 PM

If you didn't intend to be dramatic why did you even mention the setting & weather?because forms are an expression of ourselves... depending on the setting likewise affects ones form and the expressions of it. practicing on ice is different than on dry sand... practicing in the wind is different than practicing in the calm air... practicing in a thunder storm on a mountain is... well... just awesome. i am personally a fan of practicing forms in snowstorms at night.

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 05:45 PM

If you didn't intend to be dramatic why did you even mention the setting & weather?

I mentioned the setting because, for me, those aspects were part of what generated (dare i say "inspired"?) what I did; indeed, whenever I practice that form, I see the lighting from that night in my minds eye, and feel the mountain wind on my face - does that make me even less palatable in your eyes now? personally, I found it to be a very cool experience, and I figured I would share that with others who might think the same thing; evidently that was not only lost on you, it generated the opposite effect, to the degree that you felt compelled to sarcastically ask for a retraction; why was that? did you take umbrage at the perceived context (me being "dramatic")? is this something I should avoid in the future if I know you are going to be reading my posts? I suggest putting me on "ignore" then, because I really can't guarantee I won't post similar content in the future;

oh, and before you head over to the "select ignore" page, maybe you could let me know why you failed to speak to my clarification regarding the timeline and background of the form's content; is that because with further exposition you now find my activities in that capacity acceptable according to your particular world view? or are you so horrified now that you have been made privy to the full range of my depravity that you find yourself at a loss for words?

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 05:51 PM

because forms are an expression of ourselves... depending on the setting likewise affects ones form and the expressions of it. practicing on ice is different than on dry sand... practicing in the wind is different than practicing in the calm air... practicing in a thunder storm on a mountain is... well... just awesome. i am personally a fan of practicing forms in snowstorms at night.

dude - I don't know what I'm gonna do w/you - I mean, the whole "Dharma combat" bit was a real treat (usually only Scott Brown and TC Bob are good for that sort of thing around here); then, TBH, you kinda lost me w/all the Atlantis / Divine Geometry / DNA conspiracy bit; then you go and provide pictorial proof that you physically train like a madman; then you come out w/ the whole "a good fighter doesn't have to fight" bit, which I took issue with; now you come out w/the above, which is pretty much why I mentioned it (you know, the whole "those who get it, get it etc.")

make up your mind puh-leeze...

uki

09-21-2008, 06:09 PM

dude - I don't know what I'm gonna do w/youfirst you could answer my PM so i can send you the gift that i physically hand made for you.

- I mean, the whole "Dharma combat" bit was a real treat (usually only Scott Brown and TC Bob are good for that sort of thing around here);there are plenty of us out here that the world does not yet know about... i happen to enjoy stirring things up, be a part of humanity... add some insight.

then, TBH, you kinda lost me w/all the Atlantis / Divine Geometry / DNA conspiracy bit;not everyone becomes a doctor and not everyone becomes a hairdresser.

then you go and provide pictorial proof that you physically train like a madman;just to appease resident skeptics... aswell as offering another angle of perception to training.

then you come out w/ the whole "a good fighter doesn't have to fight" bit, which I took issue with; i believe it's true... i'll just continue to juggle iron balls and increase the weight and demonstrate that i would really hate to have to hit someone.

now you come out w/the above, which is pretty much why I mentioned it (you know, the whole "those who get it, get it etc.")then perhaps you should be thankful that someone else gets it and is giving you the well-deserved props for being true to yourself and honoring the way of nature.

make up your mind puh-leeze...... you do realize i am a wood tiger... no?

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 06:22 PM

Leaving aside all that wrong with the idea of 'making up' a sword form in one night.

I just didn't want to believe you could really be such a melodramatic dope.

Rather than putting it aside...I would spend your time questioning your own inability to not be able to put together any kind of form in one night. If you can't do it, you are still a novice and shouldn't be criticizing your betters!

Your comment makes you the dope!

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:28 PM

then perhaps you should be thankful that someone else gets it and is giving you the well-deserved props for being true to yourself and honoring the way of nature.
to me, shoving Twinkies down your throat while sitting in front of the tube is also honoring nature: input / output or cause / effect; the part I don't get is that while people who work diligently on making their bodies healthy and balanced don't complain when they get the results they were working for, the people who worked really hard on turning themselves into paragons of ill-health seem to get upset, or worse, surprised by the fact that they are sick and in pain :confused:

... you do realize i am a wood tiger... no?
Fire Rooster (a.k.a. Flaming C0ck...LOL!)

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:30 PM

I mentioned the setting because, for me, those aspects were part of what generated (dare i say "inspired"?) what I did; indeed, whenever I practice that form, I see the lighting from that night in my minds eye, and feel the mountain wind on my face - does that make me even less palatable in your eyes now?

Yes, it makes you sound like a LARPerific little kid.

:rolleyes:

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:32 PM

Yes, it makes you sound like a LARPerific little kid.

:rolleyes:

oh, I see; is that bad?

I mean, I'm not, really, I promise;

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:32 PM

maybe you could let me know why you failed to speak to my clarification regarding the timeline and background of the form's content; is that because with further exposition you now find my activities in that capacity acceptable according to your particular world view? or are you so horrified now that you have been made privy to the full range of my depravity that you find yourself at a loss for words?

It's because I feel you have made enough of a cartoon out of yourself already.

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:33 PM

oh, I see; is that bad?

I mean, I'm not, really, I promise;

Yeah, it is.

You have the entire Kungfu series on DVD, don't you?

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:34 PM

Your comment makes you the dope!

Scott, don't feel threatened, he's not coming after your job...

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:36 PM

i'll just continue to juggle iron balls and increase the weight and demonstrate that i would really hate to have to hit someone.

LOL! I believe you would!

uki

09-21-2008, 06:37 PM

to me, shoving Twinkies down your throat while sitting in front of the tube is also honoring nature: input / output or cause / effect; yet just like one can divert water to the fields, one can also divert water away from the crops... yet the water is still doing what it does...

the part I don't get is that while people who work diligently on making their bodies healthy and balanced don't complain when they get the results they were working for, the people who worked really hard on turning themselves into paragons of ill-health seem to get upset, or worse, surprised by the fact that they are sick and in painthey need to hold someones hand. they need someone to suffer with them... all suffering is choice, but it is thru the fires of suffering that we refine the beauty of joy.

Fire Rooster (a.k.a. Flaming C0ck...LOL!)ha. ha. i hope you are not implying that 10,000 sources tell me i am a wood tiger just so that i could be hoodwinked by a culture... because i find it highly improbable that it is the case... i understand the energy interplays...

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:37 PM

I would spend your time questioning your own inability to not be able to put together any kind of form in one night.

In another life that might have become an actual sentence.

uki

09-21-2008, 06:41 PM

In another life that might have become an actual sentence.and again in another life, you might of actually understood it...

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:44 PM

and again in another life, you might of actually understood it...

Yeah, 'cause you dopes are just so deep... :rolleyes:

uki

09-21-2008, 06:47 PM

Yeah, 'cause you dopes are just so deep...either that or you are just to shallow...

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 06:50 PM

either that or you are just to shallow...

Yeah, that would feed your juvenile, self-centered, comic-book fantasies, wouldn't it?

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:52 PM

Yeah, it is.
oh, ok; well, I never LARPed in my life; but I do practice a classical Taoist lineage; and Taoism, fundamentally, is shamanistic, meaning that it involves practicing at the level of interface between rational perception and other aspects of the natural world in order to bring about a subjective "state change" to be able to move outside of the confines of linear cognition - sort of a proto "drawing with the right side of your brain" practice (although the PRC did a pretty good job of sanitizing it into what we have now, modern "qigong"); as such, there is an expressive aspect of Taoist practice that involves things like practicing sword during a lightning storm (hopefully omitting those poses where you stand up tall and point the sword straight up, of course...), in order for one to embody certain noumenous aspects of that experience, yada yada yada; of course, contemporary so-called "western" culture would tell us this is silly: subjective experience has no real value in the world, and should therefore be mocked and ridiculed at ever opportunity; and when it comes to, say, doing surgery or building nuclear reactor, I'd say that is not a bad idea; when it comes to self-examination though, it can be somewhat useful, although I wouldn't advise crossing Broadway while in that "mode"; ultimately, the "point" is to provide one with a greater capacity to function within society as a balanced and integrated individual; of course, there are other ways to achieve that as well: LARPing probably keeps some people from going for-real psycho; what keeps you from going squirrel-bait?

You have the entire Kungfu series on DVD, don't you?
nope, not a one; I think I've seen the show less than 10 times in my entire life, and found it rather silly in most cases, TBH; personally, I have a lot of Brit humor, about 5 really good TCMA films (Prodigal Son, Kung Fu Instructor), a bunch of opera DVD's (probably where I get my melodramatic penchant) and all those gritty, early '70's Pachino films where you can practically feel the heat coming up off of the sidewalk...
so, what's on your shelf?

uki

09-21-2008, 06:56 PM

Yeah, that would feed your juvenile, self-centered, comic-book fantasies, wouldn't it?lets just say i was swigging the end of a bottle of wine as i read your reply...

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:57 PM

yet just like one can divert water to the fields, one can also divert water away from the crops... yet the water is still doing what it does...
bingo

they need to hold someones hand. they need someone to suffer with them... all suffering is choice, but it is thru the fires of suffering that we refine the beauty of joy.
I will read that to the next person w/fibromyalgia I treat (the secret I learned the hard way: don't get them better too fast - they'll hate you for it)

ha. ha. i hope you are not implying that 10,000 sources tell me i am a wood tiger just so that i could be hoodwinked by a culture... because i find it highly improbable that it is the case... i understand the energy interplays...
no - I am a fire rooster; my son is, I believe, a wood monkey...of course, I think that stuff is all a bunch of BS anyway (no really, I do, honestly; see? I can be just as infuriatingly contradictory :D)

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 06:59 PM

lets just say i was swigging the end of a bottle of wine as i read your reply...

if it wasn't a good vintage, I will have lost all respect for you...

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 07:03 PM

I think I've seen the show less than 10 times in my entire life, and found it rather silly in most cases

And why did you find it silly?

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 07:04 PM

lets just say i was swigging the end of a bottle of wine as i read your reply...

That much I can respect.

uki

09-21-2008, 07:07 PM

I will read that to the next person w/fibromyalgia I treat (the secret I learned the hard way: don't get them better too fast - they'll hate you for it)if you tell them that it will make them suffer more... mind your manners.:p

no - I am a fire rooster;no wonder i command your interest...

my son is, I believe, a wood monkey...2004 is the wood monkey in general... my daughter is january 9th of 2005, but still part of 2004...

of course, I think that stuff is all a bunch of BS anyway (no really, I do, honestly; see?i must admit you are too convincing.

I can be just as infuriatingly contradictoryblending in is second nature.

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:07 PM

And why did you find it silly?

because David Carradine is a bad actor, the fighting choreography was lame, the dialogue was cheesy and the plots were transparent and cliched

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:14 PM

if you tell them that it will make them suffer more... mind your manners.:p
I don't even treat adults much anymore - too much BS, and most chronic types are looking at you like another notch of their belt in the game of "how many healers can I beat?"; kids are much more fun...minus the crazy parents, of course;

no wonder i command your interest...
are you suggesting that you feed my flame?

2004 is the wood monkey in general... my daughter is january 9th of 2005, but still part of 2004...
yeah, my shrimp is Nov '04

i must admit you are too convincing.
don't let on...

blending in is second nature.
I do a pretty good bannana smoothy myself...

uki

09-21-2008, 07:15 PM

if it wasn't a good vintage, I will have lost all respect for you...you know it wasn't. it was the end of my girlfriends bottle of bully hill niagara... i would call it quality wine, but because of the fact they do not use a cork, i must label it as cheap... but it does taste swell. naturally i drink all the dry reds, yet i go through periods of beer and then wine... so when my beer ran out i finished the available wine... i hope my honesty negates the cheap wine respect issue.

unkokusai

09-21-2008, 07:17 PM

because David Carradine is a bad actor, the fighting choreography was lame, the dialogue was cheesy and the plots were transparent and cliched

How do you know if you never watched it?

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 07:27 PM

Scott, don't feel threatened, he's not coming after your job...

He's in a different class all together I would say! So I feel fine thank you!:)

YOU on the other hand are a different matter! The least you could have done is let me know you were coming out of hibernation! There is nothing to do when your mommy won't let you come out to play!:D

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:28 PM

How do you know if you never watched it?

redeaing comp not your strong suit, eh?

please note my original post on the topic (bold mine, added for emphasis):

think I've seen the show less than 10 times in my entire life, and found it rather silly in most cases, TBH;

I guess math isn't your strong suit either, is it? FYI, there is a whole world of positive integers out there between 10 and zero (also known as 1 through 9);

:rolleyes:

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 07:31 PM

Yeah, that would feed your juvenile, self-centered, comic-book fantasies, wouldn't it?

Projecting your own inadequacies is evidence of your own immaturity!

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:33 PM

He's in a different class all together I would say! So I feel fine thank you!:)
gesundheit!

YOU on the other hand are a different matter! The least you could have done is let me know you were coming out of hibernation! There is nothing to do when your mommy won't let you come out to play!:D

it's pretty much uki's fault, really - a real wing-nut in a grass hut (but apparently a dedicated family man);

what can I say, you were getting boring, especially since you were just posting all the same stuff that that strange voice in my head was telling me to write anyway...and how many times can you be killed by someone before it becomes derivative?
anyway, post some more, I may be inspired to return to my erstwhile state of somnolence...

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 07:36 PM

gesundheit!

it's pretty much uki's fault, really - a real wing-nut in a grass hut (but apparently a dedicated family man);

what can I say, you were getting boring, especially since you were just posting all the same stuff that that strange voice in my head was telling me to write anyway...post some more, I may be inspired to return to my erstwhile state of somnolence...

Take that :p:p:p:p:p you curr!!!!!!!

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:39 PM

Take that :p:p:p:p:p you curr!!!!!!!

oooh - you "immortalized" the pre-edited version of my riposte: so, I will have to dispatch you like that! <snaps fingers>

uki

09-21-2008, 07:43 PM

oooh - you "immortalized" the pre-edited version of my riposte: so, I will have to dispatch you like that! <snaps fingers>i feel as if i am watching an internet kung fu version of grumpy old men.:p

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 07:46 PM

oooh - you "immortalized" the pre-edited version of my riposte: so, I will have to dispatch you like that! <snaps fingers>

OUCH!!! Not so loud please! That hurt my ears!:o

...and I am not interested in your re-post!

If you can't post it correctly the first time I refuse to read it a second time!

Mr Punch

09-21-2008, 07:47 PM

Yes, it makes you sound like a LARPerific little kid.
Because he enjoys different things and has a different cultural experience to you?

I don't remember him claiming that his form-making experience made him a badass, or helped him fight in any way.

Then you're nitpicking about his having watched Kung Fu... is there a point any more, or have you forgotten why you logged on this morning?

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:54 PM

OUCH!!! Not so loud please! That hurt my ears!:o
I was hoping it might have an efffect on your sword-fighting skills, Giacomo...

...and I am not interested in your re-post!
oo, a hit, a barely palpable hit

If you can't post it correctly the first time I refuse to read it a second time!
well, if you aren't going to post it a second time, then I'm not going to re-read it the first ti...no waitaminute, that's not quite it; ok, if you aren't going to post it at all, then I won't read what I wouldn't have replied to; maybe; I think; I'll get back to you <runs into another room, starts rummaging through old papers>

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:55 PM

i feel as if i am watching an internet kung fu version of grumpy old men.:p

it's what happens when people agree with and then kill each other too many times...

cjurakpt

09-21-2008, 07:56 PM

I don't remember him claiming that his form-making experience made him a badass, or helped him fight in any way.
actually, I figured that you would have just inferred that it did...

Then you're nitpicking about his having watched Kung Fu... is there a point any more, or have you forgotten why you logged on this morning?
oh snap!

Scott R. Brown

09-21-2008, 08:21 PM

I was hoping it might have an efffect on your sword-fighting skills, Giacomo...

You must snap your fingers a second time! The first time only made my skills effective against Basil! :cool:

oo, a hit, a barely palpable hit

I feel NOTH...ing! NOTH.....ing:eek:

well, if you aren't going to post it a second time, then I'm not going to re-read it the first ti...no waitaminute, that's not quite it; ok, if you aren't going to post it at all, then I won't read what I wouldn't have replied to; maybe; I think; I'll get back to you <runs into another room, starts rummaging through old papers>

Exactly my point!:D