Just Something to Keep in Mind

[MightyB]

Remember that athletes, especially professional combat athletes - train for a bout at least 3 to 6 months out. It's a progressive training program that's not unlike the controlled "Peak" strategy that a good track and field coach uses. It's different for different fighters and trainers and it's dependent on what they know about the upcoming event. Who they're fighting, rules and limitations, type of venue, location, etc.

Knowing this- is it fair to base everything martial arts related on this forum with what the current UFC Jack0ff has been up to?

[SimonM]

Thing is that this isn't what those of us who are proponents of MMA suggest.

Rather, people like Ray, Ross and myself (all of whom have at MINIMUM a grounding in CMA - in my case it is my core martial art) feel that techniques of alive training and, well, wrestling that are largely absent from many mckwoons are a valuable and necessary component of a training regimen.

[MightyB]

Simon-

I wrestled in Middle School and High School, cross train in Judo, like BJJ, and I personally have fought in San Shou while I was in my 20s, and continue to compete in Judo tournements now- but I'm starting to think that all of the MMA talk is getting a little rediculous. I'm just saying get off of the current MMA steroided melon head's sack a little and look at it critically.

[MasterKiller]

Knowing this- is it fair to base everything martial arts related on this forum with what the current UFC Jack0ff has been up to? The real question is, which would you rather be compared to: a UFC Jack0FF or a Sifu who plays with plastic swords?

[SimonM]

Not riding anybody's nuts. Certainly not a roid-head. However a lot of people attached to what they believe to be a traditional methodology equate the ideas I talk about with MMA. It's easier just to let that slide and use that framework at times than to bicker over semantics.

[MightyB]

What I'm saying is this- You can take any base stylist- even a tae bo guy, and prep him or her to do well on the lei tai mat or mma ring in about 6 months using whatever they call the combat equivalent of track's peak cycle conditioning.

See - you have a small window where you get your peak times in endurance events- it's kind've like a biorhythm cycle- and you time your training so that your peak time in it's cycle corresponds to the event.

A good fighter will do this with a scheduled bout - they'll look at their game critically- analyze their weaknesses according to the rules of the bout they are preparing for - analyze their competitions strategy - and then train for the bout. If they aren't good at grappling - they work on getting proficient enough to compete - but here's the flipside - you don't ignore your strengths to try to get good at something your not good at- you get your "bads" to adequate and you take your "strengths" as far as you can so that if you're a good striker with bad ground - you want to be a superb striker with decent ground.

[MightyB]

the point is - what you see an MMA guy training today isn't what he'll necessarily be training tomorrow and his base style probably has nothing to do with what you see in the ring.

So Hung Gar can be good, CLF can be good, Mantis can be good - nutriding's probably better served in the training thread 'cuz it's all about training for a bout and not really about style.

[MasterKiller]

what you see an MMA guy training today isn't what he'll necessarily be training tomorrow
While intensity levels will vary and cycle, the techniques and formats are consistent. People move around and study with different camps, and these camps may have different focuses and methodologies, but you aren't going to find any high level guys who do forms for 6 months and then switch to combatives 3 months out before a fight.


and his base style probably has nothing to do with what you see in the ring. Absurd.

[Ray Pina]

My personal attitude right now is that I will always train BJJ. I love it. It's good for the body, mind and soul and it's a lot of fun.

Right now I am taking boxing too. Because I need to toughen up and why the hell not? I'm in Puerto Rico, so might as well go with the local good stuff.

As for the TKD guy. He can win in MMA. However, 6 months is not enough to make him proficient in escapes from side control and mount. Not enough time to learn to pass an experts guard. This is important in MMA, especially at the amateur level, where the lack of head kicks and head ground and pound attracts and favors BJJ experts.

Believe it or not, I still consider what my master taught me to be my base. He just had no interest in preparing me like you said for a fight. It's not his thing.

MMA, I like it. But it is just a venue.

This brings me to something else I was thinking about yesterday. How long to stick with a style. If you're training hard, I think you can acquire the better qualities of a style after 5 to 7 years. Then the learning can get stale, especially at a kung fu school light on the doing. For me it was frustrating being around a bunch of "experts" I had to kow tow too but wanted nothing to do with the bloody nose I was itching to give them.

[Ray Pina]

I have mad respect for you. I'll never kick box or compete in San Da again. It's too tough. Truly.

[SimonM]

What I'm saying is this- You can take any base stylist- even a tae bo guy, and prep him or her to do well on the lei tai mat or mma ring in about 6 months using whatever they call the combat equivalent of track's peak cycle conditioning.

See - you have a small window where you get your peak times in endurance events- it's kind've like a biorhythm cycle- and you time your training so that your peak time in it's cycle corresponds to the event.

A good fighter will do this with a scheduled bout - they'll look at their game critically- analyze their weaknesses according to the rules of the bout they are preparing for - analyze their competitions strategy - and then train for the bout. If they aren't good at grappling - they work on getting proficient enough to compete - but here's the flipside - you don't ignore your strengths to try to get good at something your not good at- you get your "bads" to adequate and you take your "strengths" as far as you can so that if you're a good striker with bad ground - you want to be a superb striker with decent ground.

Perhaps the issue is, with me, that my strengths lie in throws and takedowns. :D

[unkokusai]

.

Knowing this- is it fair to base everything martial arts related on this forum with what the current UFC Jack0ff has been up to?




Why "Jack0ff"? Why the resentment?

[MightyB]

While intensity levels will vary and cycle, the techniques and formats are consistent. People move around and study with different camps, and these camps may have different focuses and methodologies, but you aren't going to find any high level guys who do forms for 6 months and then switch to combatives 3 months out before a fight.

Absurd.

We're talking about two different things like Sunday Softball and MLB -

What do you think it takes to do well at an amateur san shou match? 3 months may not be enough - but 5 to 6 months is more than adequate to get a guy ready for an amateur tourney. You can have a guy with two years san shou experience lose to a guy with 6 months just because the 6 monther prepped better - or maybe it was just his night.

At the pro level - it's not uncommon to see the pro's doing what Ray's doing - they have a boxing coach - a nutritionist - a grappling coach, etc. based on who they are going to fight next. Heck - they don't even have a "school" at that point.

[MightyB]

Why "Jack0ff"? Why the resentment?

I was just being a d1ck :D Stirring the pot- trying to give the traditionalists some love.

Plus- a lot of the new school competitive MMAers are Jack0ffs - they don't have the same class as the old school BJJers.

[unkokusai]

Perhaps the issue is, with me, that my strengths lie in throws and takedowns. :D


And that's a good thing!

[SimonM]

I like to hit people with the planet, what can I say?

[MightyB]

The real problem is that most Traditionalists don't take the time to get good at anything. They have a tendency to overspeculate their systems strength. My advice is that if you're doing a striking art - do everything in your power to become a superb striker - and stop relying on gimmicks and fantasy folklore. Don't ignore the value of crosstraining at least to get the basics of what a grappling art feels like. Plus- anybody who's doing kung fu needs to get trained in Shuai Jiao or Judo (since it comes from SJ). Every style has an aspect of SJ in it for a reason, 'cuz it works and it's important to train it. The true meaning of throws in the traditional striking CMA has been lost and it's up to us to bring it back.

[MightyB]

I like to hit people with the planet, what can I say?

A fan of Ueshiba Sensei I see...

[unkokusai]

I like to hit people with the planet, what can I say?



Hard to argue with that

[MasterKiller]

What do you think it takes to do well at an amateur san shou match? 3 months may not be enough - but 5 to 6 months is more than adequate to get a guy ready for an amateur tourney. You can have a guy with two years san shou experience lose to a guy with 6 months just because the 6 monther prepped better - or maybe it was just his night. . 3 months is more than adequate if he's training the format normally and then decides to ramp up for competition.

However, if you are using most of your training time for forms (Hung Gar, CLF, Mantis) and then switch to a fighting format, you can be a San Shou champ at local kung fu tournaments, but I highly doubt you are going to give anyone from a fighting camp a run for his money.

I think you're correct in that how you train is more important than what, but your implication seems to suggest that there is no drop in quality between guys who train in a competitive format all the time vs guys who train in a competitive format part time.

[MightyB]

3 months is more than adequate if he's training the format normally and then decides to ramp up for competition.

However, if you are using most of your training time for forms (Hung Gar, CLF, Mantis) and then switch to a fighting format, you can be a San Shou champ at local kung fu tournaments, but I highly doubt you are going to give anyone from a fighting camp a run for his money.

I think you're correct in that how you train is more important than what, but your implication seems to suggest that there is no drop in quality between guys who train in a competitive format all the time vs guys who train in a competitive format part time.

Nah- I was on the receiving end of one of the full time sport schoolers when I was 27 and it didn't turn out too pretty for me... although I'm still not convinced that what he was getting was better martial arts - I chocked it up to he was better prepared for the night.

I wouldn't suggest that a person train forms during class time if they're prepping for a fight - that's a waste of valuable partner time. There's nothing wrong with doing a form when you just wake up, or at night after class instead of watching the Telly.

[SimonM]

One of my favorite little training night-caps is to throw on Futurama and go through the Iron Thread while watching.

But nothing beats fighting for learning how to fight.

[MightyB]

The thing is that I doubt that a lot of the trad-CMAers are getting trained properly. Too many people express forms that look like old men stuck in the mud. Too many don't know how to throw a resisting opponent. Too many haven't sparred or played hands seriously. Too many don't ever sweat. Too many haven't developed the force necessary to break bones and damage organs. Nobody eats bitter anymore...

[SimonM]

That's my freaking point!!!! :D

[Ray Pina]

I like to hit people with the planet, what can I say?

Awesome. I will now look at all throws that way.

[Ray Pina]

The thing is that I doubt that a lot of the trad-CMAers are getting trained properly. ... Too many don't know how to throw a resisting opponent. Too many haven't sparred or played hands seriously. Too many don't ever sweat. Too many haven't developed the force necessary to break bones and damage organs. Nobody eats bitter anymore...

I honestly think Kung Fu attracts people that don't want that. Like people who want to look like surfers but are scared of the ocean on a mild day. They like the closthes, the lingo, etc., but 15 feet waves over reef... nope.

When I first started Kung Fu it took like a month and then I asked, why don't we spar. I was used to sparring in karate at least every other class.

I bet you can guess what I was told?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I haven't competed much in official settings, so my San Shou experience is probably less than most, but here's my experience, FWIW.

The first time I competed in San Shou, I was well prepared. I'd trained hard, especially in terms of endurance. My tactics and technique were laughable, but it was an easy win. The reason? Good health and Basic training.

The second time I competed in San Shou, I was very UNprepared. I hadn't trained for the comp, and I'd taken up smoking (don't ask me wtf I was thinking - I obviously wasn't.) The result? Probably the hardest friggin' fight of my life, and not because I was facing an elite opponent, either. Although I'd learned from the previous comp and my tactics were better, they were still laughable. Not to mention I gassed out after the 1st minute, with 5 left to go. By the middle of the second round, I was dry-heaving. By the end of the 3rd round, I had almost blacked out. Man, what a lesson. I won by split decision. I had better tactics (?!), he had better health.

At the amateur level, being at the peak of your tactical skill is not always necessary for a win if you're at peak health, and even if you lose, hey, at least it's fun. Being at the peak of health is not necessary for a win if you have adequate tactics and skill, but even if you win, it's not necessarily fun. Having a combination of peak health and mature tactics is what allows anyone to fully enjoy the event, and also to progress beyond the amateur level, imo.

I've since quit smoking, have found an endurance/tactics strategy that I'm comfortable with, and am continuing the development and refinement of both. I've sparred and competed outside the ring semi-regularly since my San Shou days. I never expect to become a professional fighter; I simply want to enjoy my health, have fun at the amateur level, and further my learning and experience. Although I'm not in a position to currently compete, I look forward to the day when I have that opportunity again.

My final observation, I guess, is that competing without one's optimal health is not fun. LIVING without one's optimal health is challenging. I encourage everyone who's thinking of San Shou or any other Martial Comp to plan ahead and put in the necessary training time, ESPECIALLY in terms of health and endurance, but also in terms of tactical experience (Spar or Randori or Roll or whatever x 10!) Whether you win or lose, the experience will be indescribably more rewarding. Also, a lack of interest in competitions is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to slack on health. Health makes everything better. :)

CSP

P.S. Sparring and competing encourage health development!

[SimonM]

I honestly think Kung Fu attracts people that don't want that. Like people who want to look like surfers but are scared of the ocean on a mild day. They like the closthes, the lingo, etc., but 15 feet waves over reef... nope.

When I first started Kung Fu it took like a month and then I asked, why don't we spar. I was used to sparring in karate at least every other class.

I bet you can guess what I was told?

Dude... 15 ft waves over reef... I've swum in 8 ft waves over sand (I don't even pretend to be a surfer having never done it) and that was hardcore enough. :p

[Lucas]

I honestly think Kung Fu attracts people that don't want that. Like people who want to look like surfers but are scared of the ocean on a mild day. They like the closthes, the lingo, etc., but 15 feet waves over reef... nope.

When I first started Kung Fu it took like a month and then I asked, why don't we spar. I was used to sparring in karate at least every other class.

I bet you can guess what I was told?

This is why I dont even stick around a place that doesnt spar.

As it is now I'm not involved in any organization. I left the last place after a while because, guess what, no sparring. I did learn some very valuable training methods, and also learned alot about my body and power generation.

I have a couple of friends that I spar around with, but have been thinking alot about taking up boxing.

Hows the boxing going for you Ray?

[Ray Pina]

Dude... 15 ft waves over reef... I've swum in 8 ft waves over sand (I don't even pretend to be a surfer having never done it) and that was hardcore enough. :p

Believe it or not, 8 feet over sand is worse than 15 over reef. There's usually breaks in the reef, deep spots, so you can get in and out with your hair dry. You still ride over the reef, but if you don't blow the take off you can usually pull in, get a nice view, get out, and paddle your a$$ for the channel and do it again.

[Ray Pina]

This is why I dont even stick around a place that doesnt spar.

As it is now I'm not involved in any organization. I left the last place after a while because, guess what, no sparring. I did learn some very valuable training methods, and also learned alot about my body and power generation.

Same here. Bad experiences and all I'd do it the same because some of the things I learned are unorthodox and have helped me survive fights I had no business entering.



Hows the boxing going for you Ray?
I finished my weeks boxing (3 days) yesterday. I very well may have thrown more punches (just the simple 1,2) this week then in the whole rest of my life combined.

Interesting training. Building muscles in my arms and back I didn't know I had. It's been a tough week. Still have BJJ tonight (gi) and tomorrow (no gi) and that will complete the first week of my new schedule.

It aint easy but I got injured in NYC a few weeks ago and had to stop. So now I feeel blessed that I have the time and ability to train this way so making the most of it.

[SimonM]

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind should I ever find myself somewhere with 15 foot waves and a reef.