one of the better wing chun clips on youtube

[kung fu fighter]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kVzij7qSY_A

[jooerduo]

why do you think its better? better than which?

[Almost A Ghost]

Guy definitely likes to strike a pose.

[couch]

guy definitely likes to strike a pose.

:) :) :) lol

[Phil Redmond]

Here's one I like because it was completely random with control. But then again they're both my students. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFiNNXTD4Q

[norrin]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kVzij7qSY_A

he is a poser in this clip

[Liddel]

one of the better wing chun clips on youtube

In your opinion why ? Just out of curiousity :)

I think its ok, but nothing special. I prefer to see more mixing it up from both participants in a Gor Sau style way...free chi sau.

This just seems to be one guy showing some techs with a compliant partner :o
No denying its better than a hell of a lot of related clips on youtube though...

As far as my impression of skill and ability of them being able to translate it to fighting, i prefer the clips Phil Put up, its more spontaneous and competing milling, aka Sticky hands training :D

Solely my opinion mind you ;)

EDIT - ok i saw the other half of the clip my computer is slow today...and yeah some good stuff more spontaneous after the two in black go at it...

I like that part... :)

DREW

[JGTevo]

Their bong sao/lop sao looks very rigid. I like the intensity he puts into his punches, but he seems to focus more on the toppings - what happens after you create the opening - rather than creating the openings themselves.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm not against Chi sao "demos". They're nice to see once and a while. But it's not hard to look good with a cooperating partner. I prefer watching clips where both people are trying to pull something off. There's nothing wrong with getting tagged by your chi sao partner. You learn to close your openings. That way and you stay sharp.
Some "random" chi sao clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmW46ACmsms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfMC8k5m7I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZj1DIglZRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2WEYWgRffo
even this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt2MoKLIMuk

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not against Chi sao "demos". They're nice to see once and a while. But it's not hard to look good with a cooperating partner. I prefer watching clips where both people are trying to pull something off. There's nothing wrong with getting tagged by you chi sao partner. You learn to close your openings. That way and you stay sharp.
Some "random" chi sao clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmW46ACmsms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfMC8k5m7I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZj1DIglZRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2WEYWgRffo
even this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt2MoKLIMuk

That first clip was excellent Phil.
The rest were pretty good too.

[Phil Redmond]

That first clip was excellent Phil.
The rest were pretty good too.
Yeah, I like that one too. btw, I didn't see you in TO. :confused:

[kung fu fighter]

In your opinion why ? Just out of curiousity :)

DREW

Of coarse it was just a cooperative demo, but I liked the crisp clean direct flavor in the way he applied his wing chun instead of flailing hands that is normally seen as wing chun.

[Liddel]

Thats a fair call... id expect those elbows to be good and solid if he threw them for real with a bit of agro behind them..:eek:

Pie Jarn can hurt but i love Karp Jarn even more as my own habbit action is heavier and sharper for Karp !

I love elbows, which is why Pat Smith was one of my favorite fighters in the early days of UFC...lol

As far as good clips on the net for me they have to be spontaneous and competitive like the one Ronin commented on that phil posted...

Id like to see more of that same guy in your clip doing more free style stuff...
any other clips you've got....?

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I like that one too. btw, I didn't see you in TO. :confused:

I was in China ( Beijing) and in Taiwan and Macao in August, September was catching up to reality month for me.
Sorry, but I couldn't say no to the opportunity to go to the Olympics and then to visit old friends.

[paulus]

He's certainly big and fast, but I thought he looked pretty rigid in that first video too. Isn't Gary Lam his teacher? His hands are at the other end of the scale, much softer.

[Chuan fa]

He's a pretty cool dude. Trained a bit with him when he was here in LA visiting Sifu Lam's. Most people who lift heavy weights a lot end up looking a bit rigid.

[HardWork8]

He's a pretty cool dude. Trained a bit with him when he was here in LA visiting Sifu Lam's. Most people who lift heavy weights a lot end up looking a bit rigid.

That emphasises the need to apply caution when supplementing kung fu practice with weight training.

He also exhales like a boxer (or dare I say a kickboxer ;)) rather than a kung fu man.

All together this looks like a very external Wing Chun. However as this guy is a Gary Lam student then most probably he can fight.

[Phil Redmond]

That emphasises the need to apply caution when supplementing kung fu practice with weight training.

He also exhales like a boxer (or dare I say a kickboxer ;)) rather than a kung fu man.

All together this looks like a very external Wing Chun. However as this guy is a Gary Lam student then most probably he can fight.
Kung Fu people exhale as well depending on the style. Many are similar to boxers.

[HardWork8]

Kung Fu people exhale as well depending on the style. Many are similar to boxers.

We NEVER exhale like boxers in our Wing Chun training. The way we do it is very deep (from the dan-tien) and it is very subtle and uses a different "mechanism" to upper body breathing.

In some kung fu styles you may hear the exhalation(eg. some Tiger styles) but again the breath will originate in the dan-tien, reflecting in part, the internal (and quite often forgotten) side of all kung fu training.

Having said that, if we are talking about "Modern Kung Fu", then I suppose that it is a case of anything goes.:eek:

[Ali. R]

We NEVER exhale like boxers in our Wing Chun training. The way we do it is very deep (from the dan-tien) and it is very subtle and uses a different "mechanism" to upper body breathing.

In some kung fu styles you may hear the exhalation(eg. some Tiger styles) but again the breath will originate in the dan-tien, reflecting in part, the internal (and quite often forgotten) side of all kung fu training.

Having said that, if we are talking about "Modern Kung Fu", then I suppose that it is a case of anything goes.:eek:


You got that right, and the killer part about all of this; is that someone, or a practitioner that have been training kung fu for over 20 years should know better… There are no differences that are compatible between eastern and western ideals; especially the concepts of breathing (Martial Arts) and for one too do so, will be taking a short cut.

And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west, and to say; that this is what one does or should do is nothing more then hypocrisy on both ends of the candle…;)


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

Kung Fu people exhale as well depending on the style. Many are similar to boxers.

I exhale on contact. I consciously practice this when hitting the mitts or the bag. For me, it puts focus into the attack. I also think it's important practice for when the ish hits the fan. When under stress, it's harder to breathe. For me - in tense situations - I hyperventilate and can't get enough air out. So for me, breathing out is a focus and de-stressing tool.

[CFT]

I exhale on contact. I consciously practice this when hitting the mitts or the bag. For me, it puts focus into the attack. I also think it's important practice for when the ish hits the fan. When under stress, it's harder to breathe. For me - in tense situations - I hyperventilate and can't get enough air out. So for me, breathing out is a focus and de-stressing tool.I don't think anyone is saying don't exhale on contact. There seems to be an issue as to whether 'occidental' and 'oriental' martial arts do it in a different way.

When you are stressed I would contend that both do it in the same 'natural' way rather than the 'trained' way.

[mjw]

Either way you have to breathe or you will pass out so I don't put too much stress on how I breathe so long I am breathing inorder to keep going.......

[Mr Punch]

FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don't know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?

[Mr Punch]

Most people who lift heavy weights a lot end up looking a bit rigid.Yeah, cos Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Fedor, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Ali, Bruce Lee... all stiff as boards... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, cos Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture, Fedor, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Ali, Bruce Lee... all stiff as boards... :rolleyes:

Those ridgid mofus !
Like GSP too, that stiff *******, or even numbnuts VanDame, that guy could even do the splits !
Or Dolph Lundegren, that inflexable monkey !

[HardWork8]

FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally.

I understand that in the Far East during Yip Man's time many people breathed naturally through their bellies. Actually, that is the way I was taught to breath. However, when striking I was told to breath out through the dan-tien and there are various ways of doing even that.

Anyway, I do not practice the Yip Man lineage of Wing Chun, but I doubt very much if Yip Man breathed out like boxer everytime he hit the bag.

The fact that other sifus are doing so may in part explain the attraction that Wing Chun has for "kickboxer" fraternity.

In our school the training of Chi Kung is a fundemental part of Wing Chun. Infact, the first part of Siu Lim Tao is on one level a chi kung exercise. You cannot have internals/chi kung without the proper dan-tien breathing.


AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles.

I doubt that but then I could be wrong, but apparently at least the mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice is jam packed with Chi Kung.


And I don't know of any mention he made of the dantien at all.

I could be wrong again, but many traditional teachers of kung fu did/do not "mention" the internals just to any one, but then he Yip Man may have just "taken out" those aspects together with the various grappling and striking techniques which he did not deem viable for his school.

Having said that, I know for a fact that former Yip Man student (or disciple?) William Cheung has for a while had a book out on Chi kung training, but then again Wong Shong Leung did not seem to advocate such training. It is all confusing.:eek:


Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?

Oh yes please.

[HardWork8]

Those ridgid mofus !
Like GSP too, that stiff *******, or even numbnuts VanDame, that guy could even do the splits !
Or Dolph Lundegren, that inflexable monkey !

When we talk about relaxation in kung fu we are really talking about different levels that far exceed what you see in the "external"....ah nevermind....it didn't sink in before and it won't be sinking in now.:rolleyes:

[Liddel]

I don't think anyone is saying don't exhale on contact. There seems to be an issue as to whether 'occidental' and 'oriental' martial arts do it in a different way.

When you are stressed I would contend that both do it in the same 'natural' way rather than the 'trained' way.

Totally agree here.

People do breathe differently for sure. People with Asthma are said to breathe through thier mouth more than the nose which is said to be a contributor to the condition, this gives rise to more Carbons in thier system...

But as far as fighting i think once youve been tagged and/ or your adrenaline is up your going to have a hard time trying to breathe in a trained way if you havent been learning to do so most of your life...

From personal experience breathing techs go out the window when your nose is busted and you only have your mouth to rely on...and your getting punched there :o



FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don't know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?

The only thing my Sifu ever said the old man taught him about breathing was during the forms to take one deep breathe in and three bursts out repeated over and over untill the form is finished. Breathing out as you want to release force !
in through the nose out through the mouth....

Nothing mystical, just practical. Well in his opinion LOL.


And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west

Wouldnt it be tayloring it to the individual... :rolleyes:
I mean it cant be any more b@stardized than a westener being taught kung fu in the first place can it :eek: LOL

For the sake of the discussion - the amount of asians with different takes on WC alone, one could argue is already b@stardizing the system....

Its a personal thing...*******ization is perspective IMO

DREW

[HardWork8]

You got that right, and the killer part about all of this; is that someone, or a practitioner that have been training kung fu for over 20 years should know better… There are no differences that are compatible between eastern and western ideals; especially the concepts of breathing (Martial Arts) and for one too do so, will be taking a short cut.

You are right and unfortunately Wing Chun and Kung Fu are in the mess that they are in today because of these short cuts.

[Liddel]

You are right and unfortunately Wing Chun and Kung Fu are in the mess that they are in today because of these short cuts.

With regard to breathing - Why would you consider someone not using Dan tien type methods as taking a shortcut...

Basically - what does one method offer that the other doesnt ?

Last time i checked there had been no hard evidence that one created better results in terms of cardio and power generation than the other.

If im wrong can you provide a link to some evidence that might enlighten me ?

We have some medical proffessionals in the house here, care to offer your opinions ?

DREW

[HardWork8]

Totally agree here.

People do breathe differently for sure. People with Asthma are said to breathe through thier mouth more than the nose which is said to be a contributor to the condition, this gives rise to more Carbons in thier system...

If people breath or have to breath differently because of medical conditions then that is another story.

Actually talking about Asthma, did you know that some chi-kung exercises can help sufferers. Did you know that there is some Chi kung training that includes breathing in through the mouth and breathing out through the nose. There is more to chi kung than meets the eye.


But as far as fighting i think once youve been tagged and/ or your adrenaline is up your going to have a hard time trying to breathe in a trained way if you havent been learning to do so most of your life
From personal experience breathing techs go out the window when your nose is busted and you only have your mouth to rely on...and your getting punched there :o

I think that there is some misunderstanding here. The general idea in the beginning of ones kung fu journey is to get one to breath with the belly focusing on the dan-tien.

In time one will start breathing in this manner as one goes about one's daily business, meaning that when one is attacked he will be breathing "normally" rather than a "trained" manner.


Wouldnt it be tayloring it to the individual... :rolleyes:
I mean it cant be any more b@stardized than a westener being taught kung fu in the first place can it :eek: LOL

Westerners only b@sterdize kung fu when they add the "superior", "easy", "practical" western training methods to arts that they do not fully understand.


For the sake of the discussion - the amount of asians with different takes on WC alone, one could argue is already b@stardizing the system....

Different takes on any kung fu system can be very healthy AS LONG AS they comply with the concepts and principles of a given style.


Its a personal thing...*******ization is perspective IMO

The way I have been taught this art dictates that you first master and understand the art and then and ONLY THEN you can personalize it fully. Otherwise you are just taking short cuts and filling in the gaps as they are convenient for you.

Put another way, first become the style and then let the style become you.:)

[HardWork8]

With regard to breathing - Why would you consider someone not using Dan tien type methods as taking a shortcut...

Because the dan tien method is part of traditional kung fu (and karate) training and if one doesn't follow the tradition and goes for the easier option, then he is taking short cut.


Basically - what does one method offer that the other doesnt ?

1. Authenticity. Which is a good thing if you are training ANY kung fu style and ESPECIALLY nowadays.

2. Better health. That is according to Chinese medical theory and not Western "take a pill and feel good" theory.

3. Use of dan tien breathing in chi kung exercises for hardening body [martial application].

4. Better stance work, hence structure as it helps "sinking" (not relevant for the modern "kung fu - ist" who hops around like boxer when he fights) [martial application].

5. Issuing of soft power and penetrative power (including vibration). I am afraid that this last point is not going to be easy to explain to someone who has not trained in the relevant way.[Martial application]



Last time i checked there had been no hard evidence that one created better results in terms of cardio and power generation than the other.

Maybe you didn't check in the right places and before you ask me where, I'll tell you that all that info has to come from your sifu just like it did to me from two separate sifus of two separate kung fu styles on two separate continents. So there is correlation.:eek:


If im wrong can you provide a link to some evidence that might enlighten me ?

I am afraid that the answers that you are looking for will only come from an authentic sifu and not me (I can just point the finger), nor the internet and nor for the most part(unfortunately) any books on the subject.


We have some medical proffessionals in the house here, care to offer your opinions ?

Why medical professionals? Why not kung fu professionals? Or have you given up too on finding actual kung fu professionals in the forums?

What have we come to? It is bad enough having glorified kickboxers regularly putting their foot in it by giving advice on the external aspects of kung fu training, but now we need doctors to varify the credibility of the kung fu internals???

We live in interesting times.:rolleyes:

And by the way, did you mean Traditional Chinese medical professionals or their Western Counterparts?

[SoCo KungFu]

1. Authenticity. Which is a good thing if you are training ANY kung fu style and ESPECIALLY nowadays.

What? Are kung fu fighters the only ones in the world that breath now? Authenticity is irrelevant. We all breath, and this "dan tien" breathing is in no form exclusive to TCMA.

2. Better health. That is according to Chinese medical theory and not Western "take a pill and feel good" theory.

You have shown yet again why you have no business commenting on anythng medically related. Truth be told all this can be explained even more adequately using present, proper medical terminology and knowledge. But well, you are still struggling with the difference between a muscle and a tendon now aren't you? :p

3. Use of dan tien breathing in chi kung exercises for hardening body [martial application].

Its not about the "what?", but in the "why?" That has always been your greatest shortcoming. You need to ask more questions

4. Better stance work, hence structure as it helps "sinking" (not relevant for the modern "kung fu - ist" who hops around like boxer when he fights) [martial application].

If you knew half as much as you think you do, you'd laugh at yourself in the ridiculousness of this comment. When you answer "why?" you will be a new man.

5. Issuing of soft power and penetrative power (including vibration). I am afraid that this last point is not going to be easy to explain to someone who has not trained in the relevant way.[Martial application]

Or maybe you just don't really know yourself what it is you are saying; that you are simply repeating because someone somewhere told you?

I am afraid that the answers that you are looking for will only come from an authentic sifu and not me (I can just point the finger), nor the internet and nor for the most part(unfortunately) any books on the subject.

Yes it would be that simple wouldn't it? It must be that the world just doesn't understand since only your master seems to be able to tell you these things, is that it? Really, open your eyes. Or better yet don't. Just tell me where I can find more like you so I too can make a buck.

Why medical professionals? Why not kung fu professionals? Or have you given up too on finding actual kung fu professionals in the forums?

What have we come to? It was bad enough having glorified kickboxers giving advice on the external aspects of kung fu and now we need doctors to varify the credibility of the kung fu internals?

And why not? Who are the specialists of bodily function? And if the knowledge is so true, should it not stand up to the scrutiny of all experts? Perhaps even more so, if the greatest benefit of the "internals" to mankind as a whole is in the realm of radiant health and longevity (and by the way, it is) then would it not be the duty then to put it under the microscope and apply any and all knowledge both from it, and to it; in order to progress the practice in the betterment of all who may partake? Even the TCM professionals acknowledge that while it has much to offer modern medicine, it too has just as much to learn from it.

Interesting enough, just today I witnessed a Physical Therapist explaining this very concept of dan tien breathing to his patient, in proper medical terms of course.


Maybe you didn't check in the right places

Au contraire, mon frere. I believe it is you who should as google likes to say, "broaden you search parameters."

[anerlich]

And to mix the two is nothing more then b@stardizing the martial concepts between the east and the west

But, but .... you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.

Most KF styles, including WC, came about through the synthesis of concepts and ideas that went before. If you (general) can't do that across the great East/West divide, IMO the problem is with you, not the concepts themselves.


Au contraire, mon frere. I believe it is you who should as google likes to say, "broaden you search parameters."

Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.

Rickson, and a wide variety of other BJJ/MMA mishmashers, like Mario Sperry, practice hatha yoga and pranayama. Tim Cartmell bridges TMA and the "modern" MA's pretty effectively.

BTW, I've been reading a book called "The Brain that changes itself", by Norman Doidge, about neuroplasticity.

There is a difference in thought patterns between individuals raised Eastern and Western culture. Eastern test subjects did better on holistic type tests, worse on those requiring attention to particular details. You need both attributes to succeed at fighting and training for it ... , of course you may not to succeed at WC.

The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.

[HardWork8]

I see that you still harbor negative feelings towards me. It is understandable after what I did to you a while back in the other thread, but then you were being as rude as you are now. So you have only yourself to blame.


What? Are kung fu fighters the only ones in the world that breath now?
Here, you are deliberately misrepresenting my statement or are you just being deliberately stupid?


Authenticity is irrelevant.

I don't believe that you just made a statement like that.

By the way, how is your kick boxing training, whoops sorry I mean your "kung fu":rolleyes: training coming along? LOL!


We all breath,
I see that your sifu has not been holding anything back from you, old boy.:rolleyes:


and this "dan tien" breathing
".....and this dan tien breathing"?????? Oh boy, that remark exposes so much about your kung fu 'knowledge'. ;)


is in no form exclusive to TCMA.

Yes I know and that is because Traditional Japanese Martial Arts as well as a few other indigineous systems use it too, albeit at different levels.


You have shown yet again why you have no business commenting on anythng medically related.

Not as much as you have shown why you have no business commenting on anything kung fu related!


Truth be told all this can be explained even more adequately using present, proper medical terminology and knowledge.
Only for those who have no hope in heell of understanding it through the kung fu perspective (that is, even if your statement was true to start with).


But well, you are still struggling with the difference between a muscle and a tendon now aren't you?
Incorrect and false deregatory statement meant to give credibility (at my expense) to your kung fu comments. That is credibility which at the present is non-existant.


Its not about the "what?", but in the "why?"
The "what" answers the "why"! [I bet that statement will confuse him for a few hours at least.:D ]


That has always been your greatest shortcoming. You need to ask more questions
My greatest shortcoming has been the fact that I waste so much typing time trying to explain relatively simple kung fu facts to glorified kickboxers such as yourself.


If you knew half as much as you think you do, you'd laugh at yourself in the ridiculousness of this comment.
Just as soon as you I stop laughing at your provocative comments, I suppose?

Besides, even if I "knew half as much as I thought I knew", it would still be a 100 times more than you - that is regarding kung fu and not glorified kickboxing.


When you answer "why?" you will be a new man.
I don't have to answer "why" because the "question" was flawed to start with.;)


Or maybe you just don't really know yourself what it is you are saying; that you are simply repeating because someone somewhere told you?

Maybe you should go and post to your fellow knuckleheads in the mixed martial arts section of this site before you embarass yourself even further.:rolleyes:


Yes it would be that simple wouldn't it? It must be that the world just doesn't understand since only your master seems to be able to tell you these things, is that it? Really, open your eyes. Or better yet don't. Just tell me where I can find more like you so I too can make a buck.

If you want to "make a buck" out of kung fu then you should go to your own "sifu" for advice. He seems to have done very well with you.


And why not?
LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
Thanks for that. A good laugh never hurts.:)


Who are the specialists of bodily function? And if the knowledge is so true, should it not stand up to the scrutiny of all experts?
Unfortunately some of your "experts" wouldn't know where to start.


Perhaps even more so, if the greatest benefit of the "internals" to mankind as a whole is in the realm of radiant health and longevity (and by the way, it is) then would it not be the duty then to put it under the microscope and apply any and all knowledge both from it, and to it; in order to progress the practice in the betterment of all who may partake?

In that case your "experts" should first go and learn some of the relevant concepts from Traditional Chinese doctors and while they are at it they should practice some authentic kung fu for a few years, so that they can EXPERIENCE its various aspects and have a REFERENCE and some NOTION (unlike you) of what they are dealing with, before they apply their "expertise" to advanced Traditional Kung Fu concepts.


Even the TCM professionals acknowledge that while it has much to offer modern medicine, it too has just as much to learn from it.
That kind of humility would be very welcome from Western medical experts as well.


Interesting enough, just today I witnessed a Physical Therapist explaining this very concept of dan tien breathing to his patient, in proper medical terms of course.
Boy, I wish I was a fly on the wall on that occasion.:eek:


Au contraire, mon frere. I believe it is you who should as google likes to say, "broaden you search parameters."
I will, if you promise to find a decent kung fu school and practice diligently so that you will at least have a notion of what you are talking about (if it is any consolation your French is not too bad:rolleyes:).

[HardWork8]

Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.

You say "every bit as sophisticated......" as Chinese martial arts. What is your basis for that comment? What is your experience of Chinese qigong or indeed the Russian one?

What makes you think that there is no substance behind the "flowery language"?


BTW, I've been reading a book called "The Brain that changes itself", by Norman Doidge, about neuroplasticity.

There is a difference in thought patterns between individuals raised Eastern and Western culture. Eastern test subjects did better on holistic type tests, worse on those requiring attention to particular details. You need both attributes to succeed at fighting and training for it ... , of course you may not to succeed at WC.

And yet both cultures have been successful in fighting for thousands of years.


The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.

I hope that you are reading this SoCo kung fu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

But, but .... you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.

Most KF styles, including WC, came about through the synthesis of concepts and ideas that went before. If you (general) can't do that across the great East/West divide, IMO the problem is with you, not the concepts themselves.



Amen. Russian MA have a highly sophisticated system of breathing, movement and alignment every bit as sophisticated, albeit less cloaked in flowery language and claims, as Qigong.

Rickson, and a wide variety of other BJJ/MMA mishmashers, like Mario Sperry, practice hatha yoga and pranayama. Tim Cartmell bridges TMA and the "modern" MA's pretty effectively.

BTW, I've been reading a book called "The Brain that changes itself", by Norman Doidge, about neuroplasticity.

There is a difference in thought patterns between individuals raised Eastern and Western culture. Eastern test subjects did better on holistic type tests, worse on those requiring attention to particular details. You need both attributes to succeed at fighting and training for it ... , of course you may not to succeed at WC.

The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.


In a Mind's eye is another very good book.
There are also many articles out there on the "rewiring" of the brain.

[anerlich]

What is your basis for that comment?

Do some research, lazy boy. I have.


What is your experience of Chinese qigong or indeed the Russian one?

A great deal more and more richer than your own, I expect.


What makes you think that there is no substance behind the "flowery language"?

My comment was on the language, not the substance. I never said Qigong was insubstantial. Learn to read.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
The book postulates that ,while it is much easier during childhood, you can change the way your brain works at any stage of life.
I hope that you are reading this SoCo kung fu!

If anyone on this thread appears to suffer from one-way thinking, that would most likely be you. No offense.


In a Mind's eye

Cool. Who wrote that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do some research, lazy boy. I have.



A great deal more and more richer than your own, I expect.



My comment was on the language, not the substance. I never said Qigong was insubstantial. Learn to read.



If anyone on this thread appears to suffer from one-way thinking, that would most likely be you. No offense.



Cool. Who wrote that?

Dude, don't waste your time with him.

Here is the link:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=1580

In the Mind's eye is what it's called.

[couch]

Because the dan tien method is part of traditional kung fu (and karate) training and if one doesn't follow the tradition and goes for the easier option, then he is taking short cut.


I'm not concerned with someone thinking I'm taking a 'short cut' through the forest.

I want results. Fast. There's enough wasting of people's time in martial arts with a bunch of crap that no one needs or uses. If someone is coming to me to learn some self-defense that's what their getting. NO BS. No Chi Kung or Volleyball in the middle of a training session.

If they want the other stuff...go train elsewhere. I want to train with the fanatics who want to make their combat skills solid - therefore pushing the envelope on me.

[HardWork8]

Do some research, lazy boy. I have.

And your research told you that the Russian breathing methods are every bit as sophisticated as the Chinese ones. How often do you practice these methods? I bet never because they don't always involve hitting the punch bag.




A great deal more and more richer than your own, I expect.
Your "expectations" are way above your head.




My comment was on the language, not the substance. I never said Qigong was insubstantial. Learn to read.
When you learn to write, then I will learn to read.:rolleyes:




If anyone on this thread appears to suffer from one-way thinking, that would most likely be you.

Here we go again, it is Glorified Kickboxers Unite time again.LOL!


As far as people like you are concerned, my thinking about kung fu is the right way as it involves training kung fu the way it was designed to be trained and not what is convenient for me. So maybe you should change the parameters of your martial "research".


No offense.

Go and practice your sophisticated Russian breathing.:rolleyes:





Cool. Who wrote that?
The cool thing about this is that Sanjuro actually reads books.

If you are reading this Sanjuro, I am impressed, very impressed.

[HardWork8]

I'm not concerned with someone thinking I'm taking a 'short cut' through the forest.

It is irrelevant what anyone else thinks about your training, but the fact is that you are taking a short cut.


I want results. Fast.
Believe me when anyone asks me to recommend a martial art for fast results then I recommend them to practice kickboxing (also boxing and even BJJ).


There's enough wasting of people's time in martial arts with a bunch of crap that no one needs or uses.
And that is where you are wrong. There is good reason for the existance of the internals inside kung fu and for some of it to have been kept secret from common practitioners.

I assure you that the people who designed and evolved these styles didn't say "hey, we have a great fighting system here, so lets put some 'crap' inside that doesn't work and no one uses, so that we can balance the Ying with the Yang".

What I mean is that internal training has combat relevance, that is high level combat relevance. It is just question of how far you want to go in your kung fu journey and of course the all important question of who is teaching you.


If someone is coming to me to learn some self-defense that's what their getting
In that case perhaps you could call your classes self-defense classes with Wing Chun/kung fu influences rather than Wing Chun classes. It will be more accurate and honest.


NO BS. No Chi Kung or Volleyball in the middle of a training session.
I believe that any real kung fu student, sifu or master who has taken the time to fully understand his art holistically or is intending to, will find your comment above very offensive and ignorant.


If they want the other stuff...go train elsewhere.
Unfortunately for the majority of serious aspirants there aren't many "elsewheres" around, I mean real kung fu schools.



I want to train with the fanatics who want to make their combat skills solid - therefore pushing the envelope on me.

The KUNG FU fanatics that I know want to train the art holistically to get the maximum combat (and other) benefits that the arts have to offer. Or were you talking about the self defense - or maybe the kickboxing fanatics?

[HardWork8]

Dude, don't waste your time with him.

Of course he shouldn't "waste" his time with me. The last time you did that with me I exposed your dishonesty based on your own lies about my person (and you have been laying low in relation to me, since then) and showed you for being nothing more than a crosstraining kickboxer who could probably hardly spell kung fu, let alone give advice on its training methods. It is all there in the relevant threads.

Anyway, you have come a long way since then as it seems that you have apparently mastered enough attencion span to read books.....So there is hope for you yet!

So perhaps you can attempt to add to the discussion in this thread if it is not too much to ask?

[anerlich]

it is Glorified Kickboxers Unite time again

Yep. Prepare to be assimilated.


Dude, don't waste your time with him.

I won't. He seems to live in a reverse intellectual black hole, where no new information gets in past the reverse event horizon, but a constant shower of rubbish is expelled.


Here is the link:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=1580

In the Mind's eye is what it's called.

Thanks.

[Graychuan]

Funny thing is...in the Iron Palm practice of my lineage....we do dantien breathing during our striking sets and again afterwards while executing the SLT form so the breathing is reinforced into the basic movements and structure of the style(SLT). The feedback I have got from fellow students is profound. I feel like I am only striking with the same control and intensity that I have always used in class settings for the other students safety. But, several of the students I 'touch hands' with have been commenting (after only 4 months of the IP training) that my hands are a heluva lot heavier in my striking than they were before. This is due to IP training AND Chi Kung breathing. Ive had to be even more careful in my training because of this.
Also in our WC the feet follow the hands, the hands strike and release energy with the breath. So our breathing catalyzes our whole body's energy from the ground up. Ours is a Yip Man lineage. Sifu Ali was taught this same method.


P.S. Wasssup, HardWork8!

[Ali. R]

.P.S. Wasssup, HardWork8!

I look foreword in reading every last one of your post, They got it all wrong, and I will not compare them to a saying that deals with the human anatomy or phase that says; "everybody got one"…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

But, but .... you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.

That's right But, But...

You cant be serious, I’ve never mix the two arts or teach them together, because I truly understand the difference between them both…

With me, it’s either wing chun or boxing, but never together, and if you can bring poof of my mixing the arts, please do so, I have well over a 100 clips to choose from.


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Mixing arts together is well out of my pay range; I’ve only finish two groups of basics, Wing Chun/Boxing, and still wouldn’t know where to begin…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

Good Post!


Funny thing is...in the Iron Palm practice of my lineage....we do dantien breathing during our striking sets and again afterwards while executing the SLT form so the breathing is reinforced into the basic movements and structure of the style(SLT).

The same with us. The dan tien breathing is part and parcel of our Wing Chun and from my understanding these exercises and their many variations are part and parcel of all authentic kung fu styles.


The feedback I have got from fellow students is profound. I feel like I am only striking with the same control and intensity that I have always used in class settings for the other students safety. But, several of the students I 'touch hands' with have been commenting (after only 4 months of the IP training) that my hands are a heluva lot heavier in my striking than they were before. This is due to IP training AND Chi Kung breathing. Ive had to be even more careful in my training because of this.

I know what you are talking about. I have been hit by IP hands and the only thing I can say is OUCH!:eek:

The strikes go through to the inside and outside muscle mass does not seem to stop the the force going through, hence the need for other exercises to protect the body against such strikes.

As far as I am concerned, there is no IP training without chi kung, just like there is no kung fu training without the chi-kung.


Also in our WC the feet follow the hands,
We use the same principle.:)


the hands strike and release energy with the breath. So our breathing catalyzes our whole body's energy from the ground up.
Sounds like good kung fu to me.:)


Ours is a Yip Man lineage. Sifu Ali was taught this same method.
Well that is going to be en eye opener for some of the Yip Man lineage people here whose sifus did not bother to teach them the chi kung aspects of this art.:eek:


P.S. Wasssup, HardWork8!
I am great and I hope that you are well. Finally I came back from my vacations and I am preparing to leave London for warmer climates. Meanwhile I am trying to enlighten some of this forum's kickboxers to the intricacies of real kung fu and boy it ain't easy, because nothing seems to be going through to them.

Some of them may not know anything about Iron Palm but they sure seem to have mastered the enchant art of Iron Skull ;)

[HardWork8]

I look foreword in reading every last one of your post, They got it all wrong, and I will not compare them to a saying that deals with the human anatomy or phase that says; everybody got one…


Ali Rahim.

Thanks Sifu Ali. Reading Graychuan's post it is becoming apparent that your school and ours share quite a few similarities. :)

I read some of these people's posts and I just laugh(and I do, believe me). They have no idea about what real kung fu training entails and unfortunately they are in the majority.

This reflects the sad state of kung fu nowadays but the fact that they only see things through their Western tinted glasses turns a bad situation into a hopeless one!

They see concepts that they don't understand as mumbo jambo.

They try short cuts at every opportunity and one of the first things that one has to know about real kung fu training is that THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS!

They don't know that the internals are PART AND PARCEL of kung fu training.

Many of them don't appreciate that forms are PART AND PARCEL of kung fu training.

And the sad part is that there are many of them who SELL what they teach as kung fu, while what they are doing is selling kung fu flavored kickboxing or self defense methods and to add insult to injury many of them describe what they sell as "functional", "practical","improved","street effective" , meaning better kung fu.

Lets hope that some of them wake up or at least I hope that newbies who are interested in learning REAL kung fu don't fall into the trap of taking these people's "kung fu" seriously.

Take care.

[Ali. R]

Originally Posted by HardWork8
I read some of these people's posts and I just laugh (and I do, believe me) they have no idea about what real kung fu training entails and unfortunately they are in the majority.

Yeah, you got that right… It seems to me that; the more they speak the more it reminds me of ‘Homer Simpson’ falling down a cliff while hitting every rock, branch and shrubbery alone the way, and at the same time escalating their true kung fu understanding to a major halt…

I’m getting more laughs to the equivalent of a bomb, kind da like an explosion of an unmanned firework factory…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

Believe me when anyone asks me to recommend a martial art for fast results then I recommend them to practice kickboxing (also boxing and even BJJ).


Well. I have to tell you. I want fast results for myself and for the people that I train with.

So, there should be NO difference with Wing Chun training. Anything other than fast results in a TMA is about agendas, making lots and lots of money and grandmasterofalmightyness.

[Ali. R]

I’ll favor education over movements any day… It’s always been ABOUT, who’s the better chess player and with the quick fix, one will always get lost on the board…

It’s not how tough you are, it’s all about how smart one is…

Why the quick fix, its not like one is going to war or something? And well over 75% of the people here have never been in a real street fight anyway, I say if you want to waste your time, then do it metaphysically, working the brain as well the body…


Ali Rahim.

[anerlich]

and if you can bring poof of my mixing the arts,

Lol, I don't have any real interest in what you do.

I don't know why you want me to bring a poof along, though. Are you trying to make your gym gay friendly or something?

Did the fury win?

[Ali. R]

That’s madness… You charge me of mixing arts, and then when asked to back up your claim; you said, that you “hold no interest in what I do”…

Then why make such a reply; is it out of pure deception, and of twisting and turning the truth around, while using the term “gay gym” as if that would hurt something or me? I don’t share their beliefs, but they have the right to choose whom ever they want to be with, and they should be respected just like everyone else... Your cynical calculation about h0m0sexuality (overtone) and me is only fueled by pure hate…

Talk about falling down a cliff while hitting every rock, branch and shrubbery alone the way, you just put your name right next to that...

And if you really don’t care about what I do, then why asks about a 17 year old kid that I teach? I only have two words for you sir, Grow Up!!!!


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Well, I can admit to mixing the h e l l out of a video though...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGs28ywwct4

[anerlich]

Then why make such a reply; is it out of pure deception, and of twisting and turning the truth around, while using the term “gay gym” as if that would hurt something or me? I don’t share their beliefs, but they have the right to choose whom ever they want to be with, and they should be respected just like everyone else... Your cynical calculation about h0m0sexuality (overtone) and me is only fueled by pure hate…


LOL, you made a typo. I made a joke about it referencing gays. As a BJJ practitioner, I get accused of being gay regularly. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Jeez, talk about touchy.


why asks about a 17 year old kid that I teach?

There's a whole thread about him ("Did the Fury win?"), which you somehow managed to miss despite the fact it asks you the same question repeatedly. Just a reminder. I guess I managed to push a few buttons there.


I only have two words for you sir, Grow Up!!!!

I only have two words for you (and one exclamation mark) .... Anger Management!

[HardWork8]

Well. I have to tell you. I want fast results for myself and for the people that I train with.
That is fair enough, but real kung fu training was never about fast results, even if during periods of turmoil in China's history one can assume that some short cuts were made in some schools (and presumably by genuine masters or sifus of kung fu and not Tai Kwon Do or etc.). For example emphasising the weapon's mastery over unarmed combat skills.


So, there should be NO difference with Wing Chun training.

The difference is the WING CHUN training itself which encompasses forms and the internals among other things just like other major (and non-major) kung fu styles. Once you pick and choose the aspects of a given style then you are moving away from that style.


Anything other than fast results in a TMA is about agendas, making lots and lots of money and grandmasterofalmightyness.

First of all, training in the authentic way will give you BETTER results, but of course it will take longer.

Secondly, many modern schools of MAs that teach the realistic stuff can also be regarded as money making scams. All one needs to do is look at some of their "defenses" against knife attacks.:eek:

What I am saying is that there are schools on both sides that are scams but the fact remains that the study of real kung fu and its successful application in self defense takes longer than that of Muy Thai or even BJJ. The reason being that the average kung fu style is much richer and has many more aspects to it than the styles named above.

If you make any short cuts then that means you are cutting out aspects that were in the original design of a given style, meaning that you are not teaching THAT style anymore but b@stardized version.

And in my opinion describing a b@stardized form of fighting as Wing Chun is not a very honest way of teaching. However, there is nothing stopping anyone calling it "Modern Self Defense style of XYZ based on Wing Chun", which would be a more honest way of describing what is taught in many WC schools nowadays.

[HardWork8]

Yeah, you got that right… It seems to me that; the more they speak the more it reminds me of ‘Homer Simpson’ falling down a cliff while hitting every rock, branch and shrubbery alone the way, and at the same time escalating their true kung fu understanding to a major halt…

I’m getting more laughs to the equivalent of a bomb, kind da like an explosion of an unmanned firework factory…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.


The laughs that this forum provides are good for both our healths and at the end of the day they outclass the Comedy Channel and they are much cheaper at the same time.:)

[HardWork8]

Yep. Prepare to be assimilated.
I was "assimilated" into Glorified Kickboxing during my teens, in the 1980's when I joined and trained in a school that claimed to be teaching "Chinese Boxing". However what they taught was nothing more than a glorified form of kickboxing(so beloved by the many "kung fu-ists" posting in this forum), and honestly speaking it was not a bad school at all, as far as kickboxing was concerned but it WAS NOT REAL KUNG FU!

I have since grown out of training in kickboxing while thinking that it is kung fu and you will too, maybe in your next life, but you will grow out of it.;)


I won't. He seems to live in a reverse intellectual black hole, where no new information gets in past the reverse event horizon, but a constant shower of rubbish is expelled.

Says the man who practices "kung fu" but without the internals....LOL!
Says the man who practices "kung fu" together with BJJ and MMA....LOL!
Says the man who has no idea about the grappling techniques present in Wing Chun....an art that he apparently teaches.:eek:

You need to do some serious research on kung fu and find some serious answers and let me help you on your way by telling you that you are not going to find those answers in a BJJ nor an MMA school.;)

[HardWork8]

Well, I can admit to mixing the h e l l out of a video though...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGs28ywwct4

Interesting video it seems that Kali compliments Wing Chun and with good reason too. I remember being told by my sifu that Kali complimented Wing Chun quiet well.

[anerlich]

The evidence for my "reverse black hole" hypothesis continues to accumulate.

[HardWork8]

The evidence for my "reverse black hole" hypothesis continues to accumulate.

Only in your martially confused mind or shall I say you "MMA" mind?.:D

[anerlich]

HW8 wrote:


during my teens, in the 1980's

A teenager in the 1980's? Hmmm. From his posts, he sounds like he's yet to go through puberty.

OnTopic: the clip was OK.

[Graychuan]

Interesting video it seems that Kali compliments Wing Chun and with good reason too. I remember being told by my sifu that Kali complimented Wing Chun quiet well.


Ive been told the same. Ive also seen a general consensus on this and other forums. I havent seen a WC forum or group that doesnt have a Kali/Escrima/Arnis/etc. section and vice versa. As much as I trust my own experience in the arts and classical weapons I never really could contribute one way or another because I hadnt studied Sticks yet. Now that I am a humble two months in I cant help but to notice the basic drills of footwork are almost if not identical to Sek Ma and Som Gat Ma footwork in WC.
Most intersting is how the art Kali/Escrima/Arnis/IllustrussiWho? are all actually complete Fillipino Martial Arts that take you through a whole science of Sticks to Swords to Knives to Emptyhands. A Very Complete System.
Ive posted before about how Wing Chun as a teaching system teaches you from the inside-out although you fight outside-in. ( Ex. Slt-in close basic hand movements, CK- bridging sinking controlling, Bil Gee-closing bridging to gain initial contact or if contact is lost, like going to multiple opponents.). In Kali it seems to go from Sticks to Shortswords to Knives to Empty Hands.... Outside-in. Our Basic class structure is Warm-ups, drills, partner drills, basic technique with single stick, then with tantos(we like the tantos because they are cheap, and sturdy. You can really file a cutting motion on an oponent without it folding up or bending like the plastic or rubber knives.), then the same technique again with empty hands. Havent done anything with double sticks yet except the Heaven Six strikes.
Guru Ignacio is Philipino of Chinese ancestry. He originally learned from uncles in the islands. His grandfather actually moved to America not long after Guru and his training continued. Guru also has training in the Villabrille-Lacoste system. He has told of how in the old tribes one could tell the leaders from the soldiers because the highest rank chief had the smallest blade. I thought this was way kool.:cool:
I do not have the form but from what I have seen the Baat Chaam Dao has a ready stance with one hand slightly back and the other forward, both on guard and one leg slightly back. This is the way I am taught in Ignacio as well.
There is basic Form, Strikes, Blocks , Structure( Alot of triangles!!!) and Footwork but Ignacio doesnt concentrate on specific applications as much. More natural flow and forward momentum belive it or not( Its very apparent at the knives and empty hand stage).
Now remember my resume, Kempo14, TCC10,WC2, KALI 2/12. So for what all that hot air is worth Im having a blast and getting a **** good workout.

[HardWork8]

HW8 wrote:



A teenager in the 1980's? Hmmm. From his posts, he sounds like he's yet to go through puberty.

Why, because "he" practises REAL kung fu while you don't?

Or is it because "he" looks at kung fu as a rich martial art that needs to be practised holistically including its internal training, etc. while you don't?

Or maybe it is because "he" searchs for his answers inside kung fu and other relevant circles while you don't, preferring to search for your 'enlightenment' inside the knucklehead circles!

Sheesh. The more and more I read your deregotary posts, the less and less I want to visit Australia.

[couch]

That is fair enough, but real kung fu training was never about fast results, even if during periods of turmoil in China's history one can assume that some short cuts were made in some schools (and presumably by genuine masters or sifus of kung fu and not Tai Kwon Do or etc.). For example emphasising the weapon's mastery over unarmed combat skills.


"Real Kung-Fu" was never meant for fast results, hey? Where do you think all this Kung-Fu came from? People wanting to fight to start and end conflict (Read: War). So just like the armies of today - who need to learn things fast for conflict - Kung-Fu is no different.



The difference is the WING CHUN training itself which encompasses forms and the internals among other things just like other major (and non-major) kung fu styles. Once you pick and choose the aspects of a given style then you are moving away from that style.

The only thing Wing Chun training 'does' is reprogram the body's movements to augment your survival rate in combat. It teaches simple concepts like attacking the attack as a form of defense. In its most basic inception - it is a quick and dirty way of hitting your opponent. There is a reason it is sometimes referred to as Gangster Fist: it's not flashy and gets the job (kicking a$$) done quickly.




If you make any short cuts then that means you are cutting out aspects that were in the original design of a given style, meaning that you are not teaching THAT style anymore but b@stardized version.

Again, the *only* thing these styles were designed for is war and fighting. When you get into all the added appendages of styles, it's more about selling something the public thinks what martial arts is all about from watching popular culture, etc. It's also about 'filling a curriculum' and keeping their rice bowl filled (and to themselves).




And in my opinion describing a b@stardized form of fighting as Wing Chun is not a very honest way of teaching.

And teaching someone some 'internal' BS (I am a Registered Acupuncturist who believes in Qi/Shen) while they came to lean to fight is wasting someone's time.

Here's a good read on the whole subject with a nice 'dig' on how this whole Shaolin Temple link that everyone claims perhaps could have sprung from popular culture:

http://www.clubbchimera.com/?p=358

Here's the first quote in the article:
“Prior to the end of the Qing Dynasty, Chinese martial arts had one goal, pure and simple: winning confrontations through intimidation, the use of weapons, or the use of one’s fists…Chinese martial arts were considered to be a physical skill, a manual skill; they were not linked to any esoteric philosophy, nor were they viewed as a from of character development, religious practice, or spiritual development”.

- “Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey”, Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo

[Ali. R]

You may be one of the oldest members here and by the way that you post it’s very hard to tell the difference, or too come to that particular conclusion….

You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…

It’s seems to me that you cant do anything with a straight face but stay in the shadows of deception and falsehood, changing the subject to h0m0msexuallty and then typos… Why not address your statement below when asked to prove your charge


But, but .... you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.

You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…


Ali Rahim.

[Mr Punch]

FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don't know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?


Funny thing is...in the Iron Palm practice of my lineage...Hey Chris, so is this your Yip Man Wing Chun's lineage too? You're lucky, I don't think most of Yip Man's student's got any IP.

Who's your link to Yip again?


Also in our WC the feet follow the hands, the hands strike and release energy with the breath. So our breathing catalyzes our whole body's energy from the ground up. Ours is a Yip Man lineage.So, back to my original question: do you have any quotes from Yip Man (kuen kuit etc, or just anecdotal stuff would do) through your Sigung, or failing that, even some from your Sigung, that back up this way of teaching as being from Yip Man or maybe his teachers?

William Cheung and Leung Ting are infamous for having stuff they made up and attributed to Yip (whether that's true or not I don't pretend to know) to name but two.


Sifu Ali was taught this same method.:confused: Well, of course - he is your teacher, right? Sorry, don't get your point.


Well that is going to be en eye opener for some of the Yip Man lineage people here whose sifus did not bother to teach them the chi kung aspects of this art.:eek:No, not really. Yip Man is famous for having taught loads of different people loads of different things. Doesn't mean he hated them all or didn't trust some of them or whatever, though doubtless there are some examples of preferential treatment. It's certainly not a question of what sifu's did or didn't bother to teach. On the contrary, in a world of unproven competition business like wing chun, I would suspect that if one sifu had an extra piece of the puzzle he'd be dying to show people to get more students in... may even make it up to do so...!

Shame you have to think of everything (er, well, your way) as the one true way and everything else as bad kung fu. There are many variations even within 'good kungfu'.

What I said about Yip Man saying keep the breathing natural comes from his two sons by the way.

One last point: if you think fighting while keeping your breathing natural is in some way the easy way out, it just shows you've never fought in your life or had any practice that even resembles it. It's a very difficult skill to breathe naturally during a fight.


Finally I came back from my vacations and I am preparing to leave London for warmer climates. Meanwhile I am trying to enlighten some of this forum's kickboxers to the intricacies of real kung fu and boy it ain't easy, because nothing seems to be going through to them.Shame you didn't take me up on my offer to be enlightened when I was in London. I'm always up for an exchange in enlightenment... :)

[HardWork8]

"Real Kung-Fu" was never meant for fast results, hey? Where do you think all this Kung-Fu came from?

The last time I looked, it came from China or are you going to quote me a book that says that kung fu comes from North Dakota?:)


People wanting to fight to start and end conflict (Read: War).

Fair enough and of course that kung fu can trace its roots to primitive forms of fighting, but IT EVOLVED BEYOND THAT!

And that is what I am trying to make you lot understand!


So just like the armies of today - who need to learn things fast for conflict - Kung-Fu is no different.

And as I mentioned there were surely short cuts during times of war and conflict and also remember that just like the armies of today the armies of that period had more efficient ways of killing their adversary, namely weapons, albeit primitive ones.



The only thing Wing Chun training 'does' is reprogram the body's movements to augment your survival rate in combat.
So do all other kung fu styles, including the ones that are far superior to Wing Chun!


It teaches simple concepts like attacking the attack as a form of defense.
So do other kung fu styles and some do that same thing better than Wing Chun!


In its most basic inception - it is a quick and dirty way of hitting your opponent.
I don't know of any kung fu style that advocates fighting cleanly.


There is a reason it is sometimes referred to as Gangster Fist:
There are other styles of kung fu that have been practised by chinese gangsters/mafiosos most of which take longer to master than Wing Chun. Why do you think that these "functional" fighters chose the more complicated styles?



it's not flashy and gets the job (kicking a$$) done quickly.
No one says that Wing Chun or any other kung fu style was designed to "get the job done" slowly. However, if it is to be learnt properly, then it must be practised holistically, just like any other kung fu style.


Again, the *only* thing these styles were designed for is war and fighting. When you get into all the added appendages of styles, it's more about selling something the public thinks what martial arts is all about from watching popular culture, etc.

To be honest, followers of the popular culture aspects of martial arts do not last for too long in any of the traditional schools that I have trained in.


It's also about 'filling a curriculum' and keeping their rice bowl filled (and to themselves).
A lot of "rice bowl" filling goes on in the "modern", "functional" and "new and improved" MA scene as well. Are they all bad????



And teaching someone some 'internal' BS (I am a Registered Acupuncturist who believes in Qi/Shen)
Your description of what I assume to be all internal martial arts as BS is very offensive to REAL kung fu practitioners.

Also, "qualified" acupuncturist does not necessarilly mean qualified kung fu sifu of Traditional kung fu!


while they came to lean to fight is wasting someone's time.

Then open a kickboxing school with Kung fu influences. Sanjuro can take care of the Ontario branch, but I warn you he actually has done chi kung during his "Iron Palm" training and he even admitted(kind of apologetically) to it having helped him with the training.

See, you already will have arguments over the "internal BS" with Sanjuro, and he is a glorified kickboxer if there ever was one.

If you decide to open a branch in Australia you can ask Anerlich to take care of that branch. On the surface he may just look like your average Glorified Kickboxer "kung fu-ist" but did you know that he practises Russian Chi kung? Furthermore he has researched it too, aparrently more than he has researched Wing Chun.:confused:


Here's a good read on the whole subject with a nice 'dig' on how this whole Shaolin Temple link that everyone claims perhaps could have sprung from popular culture:

http://www.clubbchimera.com/?p=358

Thank you for the link. The material seems to be more hypophesis and opinion than fact. And as you stated the whole Shaolin story could have perhaps sprung from popular culture" or PERHAPS NOT!

Whatever the truth it is a well known fact that kung fu's history goes back a long way before that of Shaolin. In fact kung fu was practised in many temples and not just the Shaolin monestary.


Here's the first quote in the article:
“Prior to the end of the Qing Dynasty, Chinese martial arts had one goal, pure and simple: winning confrontations through intimidation, the use of weapons, or the use of one’s fists…Chinese martial arts were considered to be a physical skill, a manual skill; they were not linked to any esoteric philosophy, nor were they viewed as a from of character development, religious practice, or spiritual development”.

And that paragraph is flowed to start with. What makes the writer, or indeed you think that the internals solely refer to isoteric concepts? Because they don't! They may do on one level and if so what do you find objectionable about isoteric concepts?

Is it a case of "I don't understand it, therefore it is isoteric"? Did you know that the internals also refer to the training of tendons in a particular manner? Did you know that the different types of exhaling affect the way power is issued?

Did you know that the various chi kung exercises can help in the development of extreme relaxation which contribute in the development and issuing of internal power and of course the "listening" sensitivity? And finally, are you familiar with what it is that I am talking about?

[HardWork8]

No, not really. Yip Man is famous for having taught loads of different people loads of different things.

That is what some people say. Are you sure of that fact? I am asking this because from my experience the sifus who hold back will teach the majority of their students the SAME STUFF while they will teach the "deeper" aspects and secrets to a chosen few. I have never heard of a master teaching "loads of stuff to loads of people" and in my humble opinion I doubt that Yip Man did so either.


It's certainly not a question of what sifu's did or didn't bother to teach.

It certainly can be because it is a fact that a lot of sifus don't bother to teach what they don't know.:D

Others who know may be choosey (and quite rightly so) as to whom they teach the higher level aspects.

I have even heard of some who will teach the lesser known aspects and up to a point the more secret stuff for the right money.


On the contrary, in a world of unproven competition business like wing chun,

Hey what do I care about sports competitions. If Wing Chun and indeed other styles of kung fu are good enough for gangsters then they are good enough for me.;)


I would suspect that if one sifu had an extra piece of the puzzle he'd be dying to show people to get more students in...

Not when most of the internal training can be considered boring and irrelevant to "real fighting".

I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.


may even make it up to do so...!

Well that they do for sure. Sometimes they call it confidential training that they received from their masters and other times and on the other side of the scale they refer to what they teach as "functional", "New and Improved", "Street Effective", "Modern",etc. Kung Fu.:rolleyes:


Shame you have to think of everything (er, well, your way) as the one true way and everything else as bad kung fu.

Shame that you don't see exactly what I am trying to say here and that is (AGAIN) that the internals and other aspects such as the forms/IP etc, are part of kung fu and anyone claiming to practise or indeed teach any kung fu style should teach them holisticaly otherwise he is teaching a b@stardized art that he probably does not understand himself. That is all!


There are many variations even within 'good kungfu'.

Yet those variations are made by real masters (unless you mean some other art by saying "good kung fu") and not Glorified Kickboxers and they do stick to the principles and concepts of a given art. If they don't then these masters more often than not will change the name of their arts to reflect that. And that is what people teaching Wing Chun flavored kickboxing should do and that is change the name. CHANGE THE NAME!


What I said about Yip Man saying keep the breathing natural comes from his two sons by the way.

And what I said about the way to breath naturally through the dantien stands!


One last point: if you think fighting while keeping your breathing natural is in some way the easy way out, it just shows you've never fought in your life or had any practice that even resembles it. It's a very difficult skill to breathe naturally during a fight.

From day one of my Wing Chun training I was taught to breath naturally through the dan tien and that went for contact sparring as well. Of course, during striking exhalation is made through the dantien in various ways depending on the type strike and the level of the student. It is not easy but you have to learn it like everything else in kung fu.

The easy way out is breathing naturally like boxer.


Shame you didn't take me up on my offer to be enlightened when I was in London.
First of all as you rightly quoted I was on my vacations (you should read what you quote) secondly I am not into "intenet dating" not unless you are a lonely housewife looking for some fun. Thirdly and finally and it is nothing personal but I don't find "machismo" from your part of the world and indeed from here in the UK and most of Western Europe, intimidating.

It is easy to ACT tough and delinquent when if something goes wrong you have your "Human Rights", The police, lawyers and indeed the law itself that protects you.

99% of the indeginious tough guys/"gangsters" here in London wouldn't last 10 seconds in the wrong part of towns in countries like Colombia, Brasil or parts of Eastern and south Eastern Europe.

So go and challenge a "tough guy" from your own country or next time you are in London (and if the climate doesn't kill you first) then feel free to challenge one of the pub tough guys here, but I warn you they are fat and have some mean looking tatoos, however, some of them do wear nice earings.:rolleyes:



I'm always up for an exchange in enlightenment... :)

Enlightenment would be good end for you but I warn you again that it involves a lot of Chi kung and meditation (preferably when you are NOT hitting the punchbag);):)

[unkokusai]

I was "assimilated" into Glorified Kickboxing during my teens, in the 1980's when I joined and trained in a school that claimed to be teaching "Chinese Boxing". However what they taught was nothing more than a glorified form of kickboxing(so beloved by the many "kung fu-ists" posting in this forum), and honestly speaking it was not a bad school at all, as far as kickboxing was concerned but it WAS NOT REAL KUNG FU!




Basement Boy is at it again! :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

If Wing Chun and indeed other styles of kung fu are good enough for gangsters then they are good enough for me.



Typically stupid statement. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.




..................... :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

99% of the indeginious tough guys/"gangsters" here in London wouldn't last 10 seconds in the wrong part of towns in countries like Colombia, Brasil or parts of Eastern and south Eastern Europe.



And one more time ... :rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

Typically stupid statement. :rolleyes:

I wondered when Kung Fu Magazine Forum's resident cognitively challenged member (see, I can be politically correct too and I didn't use the R word) would show up.

So how have you been?

Are you still on your medication?

Have you finally started training kung fu or are you still just a wrestler?

You have been posting in the kung fu forums for a long time and all this time without actually having practised kung fu. So my advice to you is find a good school and start training and don't worry no one will hurt you and if they do then tell those nice men in the white jackets who take care of you and they will tell those "bad" kung fu men not to mess with you. Ok?

Now run along and find a man-friend to wrestle with and let the rest of us adults talk or in the case of some, attempt to talk about kung fu, OK?

Sorry, but I don't have too much time to waste on you as the Glorified Kickboxers are taking most of my typing time. Once I enlighten them then maybe I will do the same for you wrestlers.

Take care now.

PS. This thread is about kung fu, more precisely Wing Chun, which is a style of kung fu - just in case you didn't know. I know that it is difficult but you may attempt to add to the thread and its general subject matter.

Christ. I actually asked Unkokusai to post about the subject matter of a kung fu thread. I hope that I don't regret this later on.

[unkokusai]

Have you finally started training kung fu or are you still just a wrestler?



Still 'just' a wrestler.

[unkokusai]

You have been posting in the kung fu forums for a long time and all this time without actually having practised kung fu. So my advice to you is find a good school and start training and don't worry no one will hurt you .




I have "actuallly practiced," or are you so stupid you forgot? That's how I know "they won't hurt" me. :rolleyes:




How's everything down in the basement all by yourself, loser?

[anerlich]

You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…

What's this fixation with falling down hills?

OK, you don't mix arts. It sounded to me like you did, and that might actually have some merit, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since the notion of it upsets you so. Happy now?


You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…

That's the best you've got?

Wow, you really know how to hurt a guy ... *yawn*

You need to "Grow Up", or lose that chip on the shoulder.

I think this thread ended a while ago.

[anerlich]

Now run along and find a man-friend to wrestle with

Don't let Ali hear you, he seems to have "issues" with man-friends ...

[Mr Punch]

Hope it's not my last... :rolleyes:


That is what some people say. Are you sure of that fact? Yep. It's well documented and it's obvious through the myriad of differences even among his first gen students.


I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.Some of any lot would, sure. I've trained a lot of internals and would be interested, providing it wasn't full of snide patronising wee snots like yourself... of course, of whom there seem to be a higher proportion than 'regular' 'external' schools, but that's another subject. :D


Shame that you don't see exactly what I am trying to say here and that is (AGAIN) that the internals and other aspects such as the forms/IP etc, are part of kung fu and anyone claiming to practise or indeed teach any kung fu style should teach them holisticaly otherwise he is teaching a b@stardized art that he probably does not understand himself. That is all!I see and have replied, enlarged and asked for expansion on to most of your points. It's a shame you think you have all the answers and keep repeating the same stuff and tarring everyone with the same brush.


Yet those variations are made by real masters (unless you mean some other art by saying "good kung fu") and not Glorified Kickboxers and they do stick to the principles and concepts of a given art. If they don't then these masters more often than not will change the name of their arts to reflect that. And that is what people teaching Wing Chun flavored kickboxing should do and that is change the name. CHANGE THE NAME!Quick round up AFAIK (and anyone is welcome to correct me on any of this...)

1) WSL: no mention of dantien. Said breathe naturally.
2) William Cheung: scant mention of dantien, although did publish a book about internals in SLT IIRC, precious little actual training in it.
3) Leung Ting: dunno. Haven't heard of any of it from people with 12 years upward in his line.
4) Victor Kan: vehemently anti all that. Said breathe naturally.
5) Sam Kwok (and the Yip Bros): no mention. Says breathe naturally.
6) Lo Man Kam (Yip Man's nephew and also no slouch at CLF), Duncan Leung etc: no dantien - just breathe naturally.
6) Dunno bout CST, Moy Yat, Augustine Fong etc... Seem to remember Joy (from Fong's line) on this board saying the just breathe naturally thing holds.

Are any of the above qualified to be masters in your view, or are they all just unqualified kickboxers? Maybe it's the most unified point in Yip Man WC!

BTW: this just breathe naturally thing is NOT 'just breathe naturally through the dantien', it's... well, just breathe naturally! :)

BTW 2: I'm not saying that breathing through the dantien is bad, or that your way is wrong. I can see the good and bad of both traditional ways.


And what I said about the way to breath naturally through the dantien stands!OK, here's a question I've asked you before, and you answered with something like why should you teach me and I wouldn't understand anyway...

I breathe (normally) through my nose and out through my mouth (I can do it with any combination of the above...!) using muscles in my diaphragm and between my ribs to pull down on the lower part of my ribcage, and expand my lungs to bring air into them. How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?

(BTW3 - I do have the answer, since I've practised a lot of internals: I can explain it very clearly in terms of physiology and the physical process. You?)


From day one of my Wing Chun training I was taught to breath naturally through the dan tien and that went for contact sparring as well. Of course, during striking exhalation is made through the dantien in various ways depending on the type strike and the level of the student. It is not easy but you have to learn it like everything else in kung fu.

The easy way out is breathing naturally like boxer.Again, you're not listening to me, and repeating the same stuff. Breathing naturally as I was taught in Wing Chun is not an easy way out. (BTW4, breathing like a boxer isn't that easy either - unless you've been taught and practised) It is also not the same as breathing in boxing.


First of all as you rightly quoted I was on my vacations (you should read what you quote)...I don't think you were: September 2nd, remember?


Thirdly and finally and it is nothing personal but I don't find "machismo" from your part of the world and indeed from here in the UK and most of Western Europe, intimidating.
What part of the world is that? I'm one of the least macho people you'll meet. It's also a shame that your paranoia and mouthboxing bull**** got you to believe my pseudo-macho badinage and to ignore the very real point that I was welcoming of the idea of learning and exchanging with you. I've met a lot of people from the net with exchanges that have started out as immature, paranoid and challenging as your own and have ended up as exchanges of varying usefulness. I'm old fashioned and traditonally kungfuey in that way: I believe you can learn something from everyone, and am always prepared to empty my cup.


It is easy to... snipped for bull****There then follows a lot of fatuous stereotyping, unfounded comments and passive-aggressive posturing irrelevant to any subject here, which I can't find it within me to answer.

[SoCo KungFu]

I breathe (normally) through my nose and out through my mouth (I can do it with any combination of the above...!) using muscles in my diaphragm and between my ribs to pull down on the lower part of my ribcage, and expand my lungs to bring air into them. How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?

Not to nit-pick. The diaphragm contracts and pulls downward, while the intercostals contract and and allow the ribs to move farward and slightly upward. But I know where you're going with this...

Just cuz I thought it might be interesting. For those of you with young children. Ever watch them breathing? (obviously when they aren't tearing all over the room)

[Mr Punch]

Not to nit-pick. The diaphragm contracts and pulls downward, while the intercostals contract and and allow the ribs to move farward and slightly upward. But I know where you're going with this...LOL, so spank me and call me Nellie!

My punctuation's at fault (and me an English teacher too!), and my haste. I was meaning the diaphragm pulls down, and the intercostals expand the ribcage, not expand the lungs as such... didn't know about the the upward direction: is that to counter the diaphragm pulling down and so cause the expansion?

[HardWork8]

Don't let Ali hear you, he seems to have "issues" with man-friends ...

I seem to remember that you were the one who brought up the subject first and soon after that Unkokusai joined in with his "contributions". I see a correlation there.;)

[SoCo KungFu]

LOL, so spank me and call me Nellie!

My punctuation's at fault (and me an English teacher too!), and my haste. I was meaning the diaphragm pulls down, and the intercostals expand the ribcage, not expand the lungs as such... didn't know about the the upward direction: is that to counter the diaphragm pulling down and so cause the expansion?

Eh...in normal tidal breathing its so slight you don't even notice really. But when you're huffin and puffin you can tell. As to why, don't think there's any special reason. The intercostals and the diaphragm work together to expand the cavity, thus decreasing pressure in the intrathoracic space. The negative pressure vacuum in association with the greater atmospheric pressure is what allows us to fill our lungs when we inspire. Same idea as a turkey baster only with air :p

Anyways just to add to what I said earlier about children. Children rely more heavily on their diaphragm than adults as their intercostals aren't as developed. On the other hand adults tend to utilize the intercostals more and the diaphragm can atrophy (to a degree). So, are we training to achieve a higher technique so to say? Or simply trying to return to the "natural way?" I'm starting to sound like Uki ;)

[CFT]

Anyways just to add to what I said earlier about children. Children rely more heavily on their diaphragm than adults as their intercostals aren't as developed. On the other hand adults tend to utilize the intercostals more and the diaphragm can atrophy (to a degree). So, are we training to achieve a higher technique so to say? Or simply trying to return to the "natural way?" I'm starting to sound like Uki ;)Actors and singers use their diaphragm to 'project' their voice more, but I wonder if they breathe in the same way when not performing.

Since adulthood is the 'end' process, and adults use the intercostals more than the diaphragm it is arguable that non-diaphragmatic breathing is more natural otherwise nature/evolution would have selected a balance between the two. Unless there are survival benefits to having better developed intercostals.

I'm just saying that what is 'natural' breathing is highly debatable.

[SoCo KungFu]

Actors and singers use their diaphragm to 'project' their voice more, but I wonder if they breathe in the same way when not performing.

Since adulthood is the 'end' process, and adults use the intercostals more than the diaphragm it is arguable that non-diaphragmatic breathing is more natural otherwise nature/evolution would have selected a balance between the two. Unless there are survival benefits to having better developed intercostals.

I'm just saying that what is 'natural' breathing is highly debatable.

Maybe...but at the same time is it not also true that through the course of our daily live we pick up bad habits which negatively affect our health. For example a very common one, posture. The way we walk, the way we stand, sit. I know I myself have an abnormal gait. Been that way for years. As a result now I'm trying to work with my PT to get it set back straight. It feels like I have one leg longer than the other, but its in my hips. Its quite obvious, I don't walk "normal." And for good laughs you outta see me run a treadmil.

Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just talking for the sake of...

[HardWork8]

Deep breath;)

Hope it's not my last... :rolleyes:

Trust me, it wont be your last breath if you use your Dan tien.;)


Yep. It's well documented and it's obvious through the myriad of differences even among his first gen students.

But you said that they could have made things up too, didn't you? And looking at some of the "variety" one can only assume that some aspects were made up and maybe even that some other aspects were evolved in a logical manner (within Wing Chun's concepts and principles, that is).

And again, it would be the first time that I hear of a genuine grand master teaching a whole lot of different things to a whole lot of different people. Remember we are talking Wing Chun here and eventhough it is a richer art than many of its practitioners think, there is not that much to learn when you compare it with styles such as White Crane, Five Ancestor Fist and the various Praying Mantis styles,etc.


Some of any lot would, sure. I've trained a lot of internals and would be interested,
I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that and I also wish that I had a dime for everytime someone had told me that the internals are not relevant for combat.

Now that you have practised the internals, then tell me your honest view on their relevance for combat training.


providing it wasn't full of snide patronising wee snots like yourself... of course,

Well, if you look hard enough then you may find some such schools as long as you don't provoke the " snots" by acting like the king of the (Wing Chun) hill.:D


of whom there seem to be a higher proportion
Maybe your unfamiliarity with certain internal concepts gives you the illusion that some internal practicioners are the way they are?


than 'regular' 'external' schools, but that's another subject. :D

That is another matter that I would like the comment on. If you see a "regular" external school of kung fu, then there is something wrong. All kung fu styles including the so called "externals" were designed with internal training embedded within that manifest themselves at the higher levels of study. There are no totally external schools (nor internal ones either) of kung fu!

What determines the definition as "external" or "internal" is the emphasis that a given style places on them. That is why the idea of people practising Wing Chun as solely an external style is laughable.


I see and have replied, enlarged and asked for expansion on to most of your points. It's a shame you think you have all the answers and keep repeating the same stuff
I sometimes "repeat the same stuff" because sometimes what I say doesn't sink in the first 15 times.


and tarring everyone with the same brush.
That is because sometimes "everyone" sings the same song as regards kung fu training.


Quick round up AFAIK

1) WSL: no mention of dantien. Said breathe naturally.
2) William Cheung: scant mention of dantien, although did publish a book about internals in SLT IIRC, precious little actual training in it.
3) Leung Ting: dunno. Haven't heard of any of it from people with 12 years upward in his line.
4) Victor Kan: vehemently anti all that. Said breathe naturally.
5) Sam Kwok (and the Yip Bros): no mention. Says breathe naturally.
6) Lo Man Kam (Yip Man's nephew and also no slouch at CLF), Duncan Leung etc: no dantien - just breathe naturally.
6) Dunno bout CST, Moy Yat, Augustine Fong etc... Seem to remember Joy (from Fong's line) on this board saying the just breathe naturally thing holds.

Are any of the above qualified to be masters in your view, ..........Maybe it's the most unified point in Yip Man WC!

BTW: this just breathe naturally thing is NOT 'just breathe naturally through the dantien', it's... well, just breathe naturally! :)

Most of the masters in that list make living out of kung fu. One of the surest ways of putting off students is by emphasising "boring" Chi kung. Some may even teach the internal aspects to the more advanced students. Also it is well worth asking the sifu that recommends natural breathing, wether he means natural breathing through the dantien.

Also, William Cheung's book on the internals has quite a few exercises.

In our school, breathe naturally means breathing through the dantien. I have seen this in other authentic kung fu schools as well. And to be honest, I hadn't heard of natural chest breathing in kung fu (nor karate) until I started posting in internet MA forums.


BTW 2: I'm not saying that breathing through the dantien is bad, or that your way is wrong.

Well, thank god for that.:)


I can see the good and bad of both traditional ways.
Well to be honest. I don't see the good in breathing from your chest. According to TCMA theory and what I have been taught in kung fu dantien breathing is healthier.


OK, here's a question I've asked you before, and you answered with something like why should you teach me and I wouldn't understand anyway...
I don't recall, but maybe I did in the heat of the discussion and then forgot.:confused:


I breathe (normally) through my nose and out through my mouth (I can do it with any combination of the above...!).....How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?

I breath through my nose while my intention is placed at my lower abdomen and dan tien. The intention here leans on subtility and not tension.

There is hardly any chest movement. During strikes, breath is released from the pit of the stomach through the mouth (sometimes through the nose). The release of the breath is longer for more penetrative strikes and also emphasis is placed on the part of the abdomen/diaphram's expansion or contraction depending on the type of the blow delivered.

When not striking one breaths naturally through the dan tien in a relaxed manner. The aim is to eventually breath that way all the time to make it NATURAL for real. Relaxed dan tien breathing also contributes to the higher level softness and sensitivity required in advanced training whereas a more tense manner of breathing inhibits hypersensitivity.

Some styles of kung fu advocate the placement of the tongue on the ceiling of the mouth others don't. In my Wing Chun school we do both.


(BTW3 - I do have the answer, since I've practised a lot of internals:
Well then hopefully you will have appreciated my explanation above.


I can explain it very clearly in terms of physiology and the physical process. You?)
I can explain it the way I did above in terms of the kung fu that I practise.


Again, you're not listening to me, and repeating the same stuff. Breathing naturally as I was taught in Wing Chun is not an easy way out.

Well, I said what I said because logically speaking for most people in the West who breath naturally through the chest it is the easy way out when compared to the more unusual way of breathing naturally through the Dan tien.

While we are on the subject of the internals, it is worth mentioning that the training is multifaceted and involves other areas and levels and is not just about "deep breathing".



(BTW4, breathing like a boxer isn't that easy either
I would still hazard a guess and say that it is more natural than dantien breathing.


I don't think you were: September 2nd, remember?
I was out of the UK from the 19th of August till the 21st of September. To be fair, you wouldn't have known that as only one member of this forum was aware that I was on vacation.


What part of the world is that? I'm one of the least macho people you'll meet.
That might just correlate with most people who issue challenges through the internet.


It's also a shame that your paranoia
I have been accused of a lot of things in my 45 years, but paranoia was never one of them.:eek:


and mouthboxing bull**** got you to believe my pseudo-macho badinage and to ignore the very real point that I was welcoming of the idea of learning and exchanging with you.
I did so because on that occassion the mouthboxing bull**** was coming from you. You don't believe me? Then perhaps you should go back and check your "invitation".


I've met a lot of people from the net with exchanges that have started out as immature, paranoid and challenging as your own
You are mistaken about the paranoia and I only challenge the knowledge, not the person because, as far as I am concerned you can hit some of the Glorified Kickboxers on the head with the very same kung fu techniques that they say "don't work" for the next 24 hours and the fact still wont sink in.

As far as I am concerned physically challenging or implying a challenge to someone through the internet is immature and can be seen as dare I say, paranoia on the part of the challenger.


I'm old fashioned and traditonally kungfuey in that way: I believe you can learn something from everyone...
Sorry, but at least on that occassion, you did not come across in that manner.

However, I am glad to hear that and let me emphasis again that until I started participating in internet forums I had not heard of natural chest breathing during kung fu practice. Also, I had not come across WC people who did not recognize the first part of Siu Lim Tao as on one level, a chi kung exercise.


There then follows a lot of fatuous stereotyping, unfounded comments and passive-aggressive posturing irrelevant to any subject...
:confused:

[HardWork8]

I have "actuallly practiced,"
Yes, you have practiced so much that you don't even consider it worth putting in your profile.:rolleyes:


or are you so stupid you forgot?
I think that you are the one who forgot that you haven't got any reference when it comes to kung fu. I am afraid that it is back to the medication for you, old boy.



That's how I know "they won't hurt" me. :rolleyes:
Of course "they" wont hurt you. Us real kung fu guys are very compassionate people and would never hurt the lesser evolved members of the human race, specially when they have, um, "special needs", such as yourself.;)

By the way, it would be nice if you at least attempt to participate in the discussion at hand or otherwise just leave before the moderator gets fed up again!

[Ali. R]

OK, you don't mix arts. .

You knew that; before you put your statement out there, just like everyone else did, that’s why the major knuckle dragging on your behalf when asked to stay with the issue…

It seems to me every time you post, I picture your eyes turning into a big neon sign; that says,,,, Vacancy…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

Us real kung fu guys are very compassionate people !



"Us" Basement Boy?






:rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

"Us" Basement Boy?






:rolleyes:

Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:

They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually invoking the specter of an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…

And if one follow those guys, you will lose the rich ideals that’s imbedded the system within every man's hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification…

It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

OnTopic: the clip was OK.


Thanks, mane! I was thinking I could have kept the sticks pointed upward a little more (Thus the name Heaven Six. Has a lot to do with proper flow of striking or cutting with a blade.) but hey..I'll only get better. Its fun stuff indeed. :D

[unkokusai]

They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually invoking the specter or an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…

And if one follows those guys, you will lose the rich ideals that’s imbedded the system within every mans hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification…

It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…


Ali Rahim.




................................ :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry to enter the topic at such a late stage, BUT

What clip are we talking about here? What clip is expressing the use of Chi?

After reading through most of the latest posts it seems we have the believers and the non-believers thrashing out their differences, and for what?

1) WSL: no mention of dantien. Said breathe naturally.
2) William Cheung: scant mention of dantien, although did publish a book about internals in SLT IIRC, precious little actual training in it.
3) Leung Ting: dunno. Haven't heard of any of it from people with 12 years upward in his line.
4) Victor Kan: vehemently anti all that. Said breathe naturally.
5) Sam Kwok (and the Yip Bros): no mention. Says breathe naturally.
6) Lo Man Kam (Yip Man's nephew and also no slouch at CLF), Duncan Leung etc: no dantien - just breathe naturally.
6) Dunno bout CST, Moy Yat, Augustine Fong etc... Seem to remember Joy (from Fong's line) on this board saying the just breathe naturally thing holds.

I would also recommend what HW8 suggested and actually 'ask' if the 'breathing naturally' comments are to be linked with 'Chi' at all, as I think most of them will agree that breathing naturally IS Chi training!

As far as I know, most of Ip Mans students would have been told not to worry about all this Chi business, as this tied Wing Chun to the other traditional arts at the time. Ip Man made a decision to remove most(if not all) traditional learning from his early students, and I'm sure I've read somewhere that his teaching was documented in three stages. Obviously, for fighting it was understood that Chi was not necessary BUT Ip Man only taught people to fight to help promote the school! He only taught a few 'how to teach' apparently.

FWIW I also have to say that all the chatter about Dantien is irrelevant, especially if we're only talking of ONE dantien (below the navel) From my studies, three (of seven) dantiens are basically present and worked on first in most Martial Arts. Another analogy would be to link these practises to the three forms, especially since we first learn with our 'head' in SLT, but I don't want anyone to quote me on that one!

The dantien is best simply described as energetic fields EXACTLY the same as the Shakra, which also means that there are basically six in the body (head, chest, waist - front & back) and one point outside the body (above the head)

If anyone has actually trained AND felt these 'connections', I'd like to hear from you!!

One thing I can say is that I have trained these principles basically to achieve, what Sifu referred to as, an Iron Shirt. I also know that Lee Shing passed much of this training to Uncle Goh and others, so we as a family do still hold on to this traditional approach to training. No mysteries involved fme BUT overall results for everyone who trained were priceless.

Keep in mind, ALL of my brothers had more than ten years experience in other families before they learnt anything about Lee Shing family. They were also programmed to NOT believe or even think about Chi development.

I don't know of any one bruv that would say now that Chi doesn't exist, but hey we did have a Sifu that could demonstrate as well as explain what all the fuss was about! :D I miss those days...

[Ali. R]

................................ :rolleyes:


It’s only typical for you to raise your in head up from a condescending pit hole of acceptance, as you side with whom ever feeling the need to belong…

You have flip/flop on these issues many times leaving a paper trail a mile long, on how great it is to study the right way, even explaining techniques and giving everyone an ideal that doing something the right way, is the best way…

It’s either an group afford, or you’re saying nothing at all, while the masses try to dissocialize the benefits of dealing with the internals and heath productivity within the system.

It’s your thoughts as well, that are so damaging to those who seek the truth, as a blind man holding a rail that guides him directly into one-way traffic…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

A little early in the day to be so drunk, isn't it?

[Graychuan]

A little early in the day to be so drunk, isn't it?


Anyone who reads this particular thread knows that the only reason you even posted was to give HW8 a hard time. You have no intention of contributing to the discussion other than this. Since he was too informed for you, you are now trying to start on someone else and HE is too informed for you as well.

[Ali. R]

It’s said, that nothing more is exciting then watching the fisherman being pull into the water by the fish; well ‘kokusai’, meet the water… Your tantalizing thoughts and replies are meaningless and holds no true substance in debate…

While at the same time you seem to be posting as if you’re staring at some woman’s panty line from your living room window…

And saying, “it’s so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing, as it send little starbursts through my window, ricocheting hope within the realm of loneliness”… As you begin to cry, and say, “Is there a friend for the friendless”?

You are nothing more then a puppet, my friend…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

Like I said, maybe you should wait until a little later in the day to hit the sauce there Champ.

[Ali. R]

Its seems to me that you have been spinning around in circles from the time you started posting here on this thread, you need to rest and lay down…

Your nothing more then a discussion forum hack… Your posts couldn’t help two people, yet alone a half dozen members wouldn’t even bother to read them, even if you tried to jump the ‘Snake River Canyon’ on a motorcycle powered; by only your own ego.

The only thing that you produce here on this forum, is your own stream of sewage farm products…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…


Ali Rahim.

You are right Ali, most of these guys are no kung fu Einsteins.

I wonder what they look like when they get together to replace a light bulb and how long it takes them to figure out that the job is easier without the kickboxing gloves.:eek:

[HardWork8]

Anyone who reads this particular thread knows that the only reason you even posted was to give HW8 a hard time.

And he doesn't even do that right.....lol.

It is also very interesting how the other Glorified Kickboxers or "kung fu-ists" -who count among their number distinguished members of the medical profession :rolleyes: and probably NASA as well - do not seem to notice Unkokusai's obnoxious trolling.

These are the same people who are too ready to jump in and attempt to "shoot down" traditional kung fu trainig methods by ganging up on me and anyone else who "dares" go against the knucklehead crosstraining mantra of theirs.

Their "selectiveness" is very revealing.;)



You have no intention of contributing to the discussion other than this. Since he was too informed for you, you are now trying to start on someone else and HE is too informed for you as well.

I think the chairs that you and I are sitting on are too informed for Unkokusai.

[unkokusai]

Its seems to me that you have been spinning around in circles from the time you started posting here on this thread, you need to rest and lay down…

Your nothing more then a discussion forum hack… Your posts couldn’t help two people, yet alone a half dozen members wouldn’t even bother to read them, even if you tried to jump the ‘Snake River Canyon’ on a motorcycle powered; by only your own ego.

The only thing that you produce here on this forum, is your own stream of sewage farm products…


Ali Rahim.



Go sleep it off, you drunk.

[Graychuan]

Wow!!!!! He can get away with these insults....



Go sleep it off, you drunk.


But all hell broke loose when a man of faith (and authentic kung fu) posted this...




All praise to Allah (God) the most merciful, master of the Day of Judgment…
Thee do we worship and thine aid we seek…

Maaliki Yawmid-Diin


I think the trash needs to be taken out.

[Ali. R]

Go sleep it off, you drunk.


Oh, you should get a special reward from heaven for that one… It really enlightens the understandings of your intellectual capabilities…. By listening to you; one can now learn how to punch through your average killer green belt of a multicultural fighting system…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

So, we have one guy trying to make every post a (poorly executed, histrionic) sermon, another guy with just a couple of years of actual instruction who is so desperate to include himself in a group of 'real kungfu men' that it is absolutely laughable, and a bunch of practitioners who feel so threatened by the forces of modernity that they will rally round even these characters despite the fact that they are just the sort to discredit kungfu.

How unfortunate.




Anyway, just what made that first clip "one of the better on youtube"? Looked like the same sort of 'comply and pose' stuff that is all too common.

[unkokusai]

Oh, you should get a special reward from heaven for that one… It really enlightens the understandings of your intellectual capabilities…. Buy listening to you; one can now learn how to punch through your average killer green belt of a multicultural fighting system…


Ali Rahim.




Seriously man, go have a cup of coffee and a ham and cheese sandwich and sober up!

[unkokusai]

What I'd really like to see are the WC vs non-WC at full-go vids, but I won't hold my breath. How about WC vs WC that is full-go and not the posing 'master' using a student to try and look cool? There must be plenty of those out there (no?) so we can see what distinguishes them from the dreaded 'kickboxing.'

At least then there would be something to talk about beyond, "You just don't understand!!!" and "Shut up, you're impure!!!" silliness.


Unless the real point is just to agree with yourselves and give the hangers on like HW8 a place to play 'I'm Kungfu too!'

[Ali. R]

So, we have one guy trying to make every post a (poorly executed, histrionic) sermon, another guy with just a couple of years of actual instruction who is so desperate to include himself in a group of 'real kungfu men' that it is absolutely laughable.

Then we have you, one who cant figure out the basic inessential elements that helps keep the traditional standpoints alive within your training, but only choose laziness when confused, rather then pondering for true understand (Martial Bum)…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

Then we have you, one who cant figure out the basic inessential elements that helps keep the traditional standpoints alive within your training, but only choose laziness when confused, rather then pondering for true understand (Martial Bum)…


Ali Rahim.




Coffee...sandwich...sober up you drunk.

[Ali. R]

I’m sorry; Islam does not condoned drinking or pork, and those that know me, knows that your statements are way off character, as one chooses to call me a man of prayer all on his own, that should speak in volumes about my character…

Good hunting, you haven’t press the right button yet, I know that I have… ;)


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

I’m sorry; Islam does not condoned drinking or pork, and those that know me, knows that your statements are way off character, as one chooses to call me a man of prayer all on his own, that should speak in volumes about my character…


Ali G.




Oh I see! Is that why you feel the need to make every post sound like something out of a bad comic book? Is your real purpose to advertise your faith at every opportunity and let everyone know how devout you are? That sounds a lot like someone serving his own ego, not a very good servant at all.

I'm sure you've got it in you to communicate in a normal tone. Until you do, I'll take you about as seriously as that sad ******* HW8.

[unkokusai]

Someone suggested I put this vid out there for discussion. Thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZv9sBgOaak



It seems he did not employ the WC ground fighting techniques I keep hearing about. Maybe, like HW8, this sifu had not yet reached a high enough level so as to be privy to this special training?

[Graychuan]

Someone suggested I put this vid out there for discussion. Thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZv9sBgOaak



Noone suggested it but im posting this one all on my own... Do you guys in your rasslin' classes do any of these drills (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x68k2aaTsCs) ,Unkokosai?


Not 'ground and pound' but 'grind and whine' maybe? :p

[unkokusai]

I'm sure your hard drive is just full to the brim with vids like those... :rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

Oh I see! Is that why you feel the need to make every post sound like something out of a bad comic book? Is your real purpose to advertise your faith at every opportunity and let everyone know how devout you are? That sounds a lot like someone serving his own ego, not a very good servant at all.

I'm sure you've got it in you to communicate in a normal tone. Until you do, I'll take you about as seriously as that sad ******* HW8.

When despair sets in and one get desperate; attack one’s character…. Sound like a political plan to me.

It could almost worked, but that was someone’s own definition about me and on how I carry myself as a person… No matter how much work you put into it, you could never tear it down as many have tried numerals times before…

Because, I devote my time in helping those in need and standing up for those who are weak, especially those with multicultural experience that believes in the rights and fairness of all mankind…

Its is in your nature to destroy goodness or anything of self independence, because goodness can only mean bad in your sight, especially when you cant relate culturally (closed mind)…

Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

Forsooth! Thou hast verily wounded me with thy venemous words! Wherefore hast thy senses taken their leave of thee and abandoned a fool in his time of dire need? Alas!

[unkokusai]

Hark! The doltish moans of the jester doth assail mine ears once more. Oh, but that the braying of this nave would find respite however brief!

[Graychuan]

When despair sets in and one get desperate; attack one’s character…. Sound like a political plan to me.

It could almost worked, but that was someone’s own definition about me and on how I carry myself as a person… No matter how much work you put into it, you could never tear it down as many have tried numerals times before…

Because, I devote my time in helping those in need and standing up for those who are weak, especially those with multicultural experience that believes in the rights and fairness of all mankind…

Its is in your nature to destroy goodness or anything of self independence, because goodness can only mean bad in your sight, especially when you cant relate culturally (closed mind)…

Ali Rahim.

Naaahhh! With respect, Sifu Ali, thats givin' him too much credit. I really just think he doesnt know anything. I doubt he even knows any real wrestling.



So, we have one guy trying to make every post a (poorly executed, histrionic) sermon, another guy with just a couple of years of actual instruction ...


Which is a couple of years more of authentic Kung Fu than you have, Slick.

[unkokusai]

Which is a couple of years more of authentic Kung Fu than you have, Slick.



Not really, but I certainly don't claim any particular expertise.






But anyway, what about the vid I posted? Any thoughts?

[Graychuan]

... but I certainly don't claim any particular expertise.

And this is certainly the smartest thing you have said in this thread but its nothing we didnt already know.









But anyway, what about the vid I posted? Any thoughts?


I was thinking I see this a lot on the playground during recess at my 5yr old son's school sometimes. The kids are better at it though.

;)

[unkokusai]

And this is certainly the smartest thing you have said in this thread but its nothing we didnt already know.






Thanks. How long did you study in China?

[unkokusai]

I was thinking I see this a lot on the playground during recess at my 5yr old son's school sometimes. The kids are better at it though.

;)



Hilarious. So, was that guy a legit WC guy? Or was he another infidel? What's the WC analysis of what happened there?

[Graychuan]

Hilarious. So, was that guy a legit WC guy? Or was he another infidel? What's the WC analysis of what happened there?



Maybe he cut in front of the guy in the lunch line. Maybe he pinched the guys girlsfriend's booty at the mixer last week. But honestly it looked like the WC guy was laughing so hard at the rassler with no shirt and hard nipples running towards him that he was off guard and got thrown down. Happens to the best of us man. :D

[unkokusai]

It's funny. Great. But really, what?

[unkokusai]

Hello?


Nothing?


Any word from the 'real kungfu men'? (HW8 and AliG need not apply)


No?

[unkokusai]

Heeelllloooooooooooooooo....

[unkokusai]

Hmmmmm......

[HardWork8]

Unless the real point is just to agree with yourselves and give the hangers on like HW8 a place to play 'I'm Kungfu too!'

Says the guy who DOESN'T practise and nor even likes kung fu but who insists on "hanging around" the KUNG FU FORUM LOL!

And he hangs around here because he is TOLERATED by the Pseudo kung fu-ists or Glorified Kickboxers who IDENTIFY with the likes of unkokusai more than they do with the likes of Ali Rahim, Graychuan, myself and a few others who train traditionally.

Unkokusai has entered the threads here and insulted many kung fu practitioners including newbies who he has done his best to offend and chase away.

What was the reaction from the likes of SoCo Kung fu, Cjurakpt, Sanjuro Ronin, Anerlich and the rest of the knucklehead clan???????

A BIG NOTHING !

If anything, they will support him, and listen to this, they will also "discuss" 'kung fu' matters with him. Yes, they discuss kung fu with a person who DOESN'T PRACTICE OR EVEN LIKE KUNG FU AND WHO CLEARLY HAS PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES! LOL!

Well if nothing else, this forum is at least a bundle of laughs.:rolleyes:

The rule of this Kickboxers' gang seems to be, "Agree with us and you will be fine (even if you don't practise or even like kung fu or if you are a mental patient), just agree with the Modern MMA/Crosstraining mantra! Disagree with the mantra and we will harass and ridicule you".

[They tried to do that with me when I came along and told them that they were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about as far as kung fu was concerned - but things did not go their way and as a result most of them are running along the forums with sore butts, not knowing what to do. Yes, they got a taste of their own medicine from someone who knows about kung fu.]


AND AS WE CAN SEE Of COURSE, THE SILENCE REGARDING UNKOKUSAI'S OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR CONTINUES!

And that silence is eating away at the little (and I am being extremely generous here) kung fu credibility that these people have left.

PS. IF this forum had half as many kung fu practitioners (not Glorified kickboxers) who claim to be authentic, as it is claimed to have, then unkokusai and would have been chased off these threads a long time ago.

[unkokusai]

who DOESN'T practise and nor even likes kung fu .




Wow, when did I say that, Basement Boy?

[unkokusai]

The rule of this Kickboxers' gang seems to be, "Agree with us and you will be fine .


I dunno, that seems to be your mantra, Basement Boy. That's why you are so (pathetically) desperate to try and count yourself among the "us."


And anyone who doesn't conform to the great insight of your all of three years of training :rolleyes: is ****ed as:



Pseudo kung fu-ists or Glorified Kickboxers



You remain a bad joke, Basement Boy.

[HardWork8]

What I'd really like to see are the WC vs non-WC at full-go vids,
That is an easy one. Why don't you take a video camera to a few kung fu kwoons in your local China Town and challenge a couple of sifus to a real fight.

I believe that the law allows even people like you who are cognitively challenged to use video a video camera, just try not to bite into it or drool on it as we don't want you to electrocute yourself before the actual fights.

Hey what am I saying. You can't film yourself, but of course I am sure that you will have one of your man-friends filming you.



but I won't hold my breath.
NO don't do that. It is not good for you. Just use normal breathing through the dantien, or haven't you been reading?.:D


How about WC vs WC that is full-go and not the posing 'master' using a student to try and look cool?
I believe that there are a few of those around in You Tube. So why don't you be a nice boy and go there and search and watch to your satisfaction and stay out of the kung fu forums.


There must be plenty of those out there (no?) so we can see what distinguishes them from the dreaded 'kickboxing.'

Yes there are plenty of those about and you are free to go and look and "search" for the distinctions yourself.


At least then there would be something to talk about beyond, "You just don't understand!!!" and "Shut up, you're impure!!!"
Hey guys, I think that unkokusai is getting the message at last.:)

[unkokusai]

That is an easy one. Why don't you take a video camera to a few kung fu kwoons in your local China Town and challenge a couple of sifus to a real fight.



So you have no vids at all? Ok, what about the one I posted?

[unkokusai]

I believe that there are a few of those around in You Tube. )



Ok, let's see one. As a 'real kungfu man' you must have a few ready to go.

[unkokusai]

Yes there are plenty of those about )



Ok, post 'em, clown.

[HardWork8]

Wow, when did I say that, Basement Boy?

You "said" that you don't practise kung fu when you didn't deem your "kung fu training" important enough to put in your profile, next to the rasslin'.

You say you don't like kung fu every time you show contempt for the traditional methods as you are ignorant of the fact that when you take out the traditional and holistic training out of kung fu, then you end up with Glorified Kickboxing!

There, I hope that I have cleared up your confusion Drool Boy, now keep on taking your medication!

[HardWork8]

So you have no vids at all? Ok, what about the one I posted?

That wrestler had some scary nipples.

[HardWork8]

Ok, let's see one. As a 'real kungfu man' you must have a few ready to go.

The object of the exercise is for you to go to YouTube and search for those videos and watching them to your satisfaction without hanging around here in the kung fu forum making an idiot out of yourself.

Talking of exercise, searching for the videos might to that thing between your cabbage ears that you call a 'brain' a whole lot of good.

[cjurakpt]

How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?
physiologically, the rationale behind breathing with the dantien (and I assume that the one in question is the lower dantien - there are three - you can "breathe" into all of them, so to speak; in fact, going a bit further, one can even "breathe" down to /with the soles of the feet :eek:) is in order to maximize diaphragmatic excursion during inhalation, since, if one is an upper chest breather, one is using accessory muscles of respiration excessively (scalenes, sternocleidomastoid, upper traps, pecs), and one will actually inhibit the degree to which respiratory diaphragm can contract; this is not uncommon for many people who live in a chronic "stress response" phase; so, for qigong purposes at least, the concept helps shift awareness to where you want RD to go, so to speak;

now, if is one doing "natural" (Buddhist) breathing, then the awareness typically stays in the dantien throughout the entire length of the breath; if one is doing "reverse" (Taoist) breathing, then the awareness travels a bit differently (if one has opened the Microcosmic Orbit, for example, it can follow that pathway);


The diaphragm contracts and pulls downward, while the intercostals contract and and allow the ribs to move farward and slightly upward.

the diaphragm pulls down, and the intercostals expand the ribcage, not expand the lungs as such... didn't know about the the upward direction: is that to counter the diaphragm pulling down and so cause the expansion

The intercostals and the diaphragm work together to expand the cavity, thus decreasing pressure in the intrathoracic space. The negative pressure vacuum in association with the greater atmospheric pressure is what allows us to fill our lungs when we inspire.
RD first contracts on a relatively stable ribcage, causing the central part, the dome, to descend; this movement is limited by both upward pull of mediastinal elements (stuff in the thorax that attaches to it) and resistance of the abdominal contents below (which will vary depending on if one does "natural" or "reverse" breathing); once the RD has stopped descending, then the central part is stable, so when the fibers contract they are now elevating the mid to lower ribs, expanding the thoracic cavity (the rib movement is triaxial, resulting in a hard to describe but easy to demonstrate motion); also, the external intercostals, braced on a stable thoracic spine, will elevate the ribs; levator costarum and paraspinals are also involved then all the accessories as well (46 muscles in total!);

this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is a good general descrption of respiratory biomechanics; this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is about ribs specifically
the best pictures are in Kapandji, Physiology of the Joints, Vol. 3


For those of you with young children. Ever watch them breathing? (obviously when they aren't tearing all over the room)...Children rely more heavily on their diaphragm than adults as their intercostals aren't as developed. On the other hand adults tend to utilize the intercostals more and the diaphragm can atrophy (to a degree)
never heard this bit about the RD atrophy; I would suggest that the degree of neuronal activation would decrease as opposed to actual atrophy of muscle fibers;


Interesting enough, just today I witnessed a Physical Therapist explaining this very concept of dan tien breathing to his patient, in proper medical terms of course.
I'm surprised a PT was even talking about it, TBH! They barely mentioned anything about this stuff in school, and most PT's are so obsessed with the lumbar vertebrae that they don't even consider how the RD impacts things like low back pain (which is funny, considering how treating RD will often clear up dysfunction of the head, neck, low back, etc.)

[unkokusai]

You "said" that you don't practise kung fu



That's true, I don't. And I - JUST LIKE YOU - don't have enough experience in that area to lay claim to it.


I'm honest and you are a pathetic wannabe.

[unkokusai]

You say you don't like kung fu every time you show contempt for the traditional methods as you are ignorant of the fact that when you take out the traditional and holistic training out of kung fu, then you end up with Glorified Kickboxing!

!



....................... :rolleyes:


Oh now you are interpreting? :rolleyes: Try not to hurt yourself, Basement Boy.

[unkokusai]

That wrestler had some scary nipples.



So you have nothing to say? I thought so.

[unkokusai]

The object of the exercise is for you to .



No, no, no Basement Boy, it's not an exercise, it's a simple question. Can you provide any vids or not?

[unkokusai]

I guess not......................

[HardWork8]

So you have nothing to say?
Not to you Drool Boy.


I thought so.

You "thought"? Now I have seen everything! Who would have guessed, unkokusai would actually manage to think (even if it was a brief experience).

It sends shivers down my spine and even my dantien. Unkokusai had a thought, WOW!

By the way, if you want to know what dantien is then don't hesitate to ask Cjurakpt and I am sure that he won't hesitate to write you a six page explanation.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Again, you have nothing to say...

[HardWork8]

No, no, no Basement Boy, it's not an exercise, it's a simple question. Can you provide any vids or not?

Of course I can Drool Boy, but I WON'T! I wouldn't give you the time of the day! There now go to YouTube and play a little.

[unkokusai]

Of course I can , but I WON'T! .




Yes, of course, that's it. :rolleyes:


Where have we heard that kind of empty excuse before...? Something about some kind of somebody competing in somekind of competition or other... so hard to remember...

[paulus]

By the way, it would be nice if you at least attempt to participate in the discussion at hand or otherwise just leave before the moderator gets fed up again!
There's a moderator?

They sure keep a low profile don't they?

[SoCo KungFu]

physiologically, the rationale behind breathing with the dantien (and I assume that the one in question is the lower dantien - there are three - you can "breathe" into all of them, so to speak; in fact, going a bit further, one can even "breathe" down to /with the soles of the feet :eek:) is in order to maximize diaphragmatic excursion during inhalation, since, if one is an upper chest breather, one is using accessory muscles of respiration excessively (scalenes, sternocleidomastoid, upper traps, pecs), and one will actually inhibit the degree to which respiratory diaphragm can contract; this is not uncommon for many people who live in a chronic "stress response" phase; so, for qigong purposes at least, the concept helps shift awareness to where you want RD to go, so to speak;

now, if is one doing "natural" (Buddhist) breathing, then the awareness typically stays in the dantien throughout the entire length of the breath; if one is doing "reverse" (Taoist) breathing, then the awareness travels a bit differently (if one has opened the Microcosmic Orbit, for example, it can follow that pathway);

Hey, glad you jumped in. Hehe I was hoping I could bait you out.


RD first contracts on a relatively stable ribcage, causing the central part, the dome, to descend; this movement is limited by both upward pull of mediastinal elements (stuff in the thorax that attaches to it) and resistance of the abdominal contents below (which will vary depending on if one does "natural" or "reverse" breathing); once the RD has stopped descending, then the central part is stable, so when the fibers contract they are now elevating the mid to lower ribs, expanding the thoracic cavity (the rib movement is triaxial, resulting in a hard to describe but easy to demonstrate motion); also, the external intercostals, braced on a stable thoracic spine, will elevate the ribs; levator costarum and paraspinals are also involved then all the accessories as well (46 muscles in total!);

this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is a good general descrption of respiratory biomechanics; this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is about ribs specifically
the best pictures are in Kapandji, Physiology of the Joints, Vol. 3

This is why. Thanks for the more detailed description.


I'm surprised a PT was even talking about it, TBH! They barely mentioned anything about this stuff in school, and most PT's are so obsessed with the lumbar vertebrae that they don't even consider how the RD impacts things like low back pain (which is funny, considering how treating RD will often clear up dysfunction of the head, neck, low back, etc.)

Yeah he did though. That wasn't the only topic he covered though interestingly enough, LBP was part of the patients complaint. The PT basically covered posture, some exercises and the breathing as a combined effort to strengthen the core. The patient had some issues and posture was a big part of it and muscles that had not been getting enough use. They had to get the muscles back up to par before they could do anything else otherwise you know...they just gonna find themselves back at the beginning. It took me as a surprise cuz you know how health care is now days. Usually its just do this to fix that, please schedule another appointment for any other issues. He actually took the time to work through everything. Which was nice for me, cuz I was next to see that same PT

[sanjuro_ronin]

physiologically, the rationale behind breathing with the dantien (and I assume that the one in question is the lower dantien - there are three - you can "breathe" into all of them, so to speak; in fact, going a bit further, one can even "breathe" down to /with the soles of the feet :eek:) is in order to maximize diaphragmatic excursion during inhalation, since, if one is an upper chest breather, one is using accessory muscles of respiration excessively (scalenes, sternocleidomastoid, upper traps, pecs), and one will actually inhibit the degree to which respiratory diaphragm can contract; this is not uncommon for many people who live in a chronic "stress response" phase; so, for qigong purposes at least, the concept helps shift awareness to where you want RD to go, so to speak;

now, if is one doing "natural" (Buddhist) breathing, then the awareness typically stays in the dantien throughout the entire length of the breath; if one is doing "reverse" (Taoist) breathing, then the awareness travels a bit differently (if one has opened the Microcosmic Orbit, for example, it can follow that pathway);




RD first contracts on a relatively stable ribcage, causing the central part, the dome, to descend; this movement is limited by both upward pull of mediastinal elements (stuff in the thorax that attaches to it) and resistance of the abdominal contents below (which will vary depending on if one does "natural" or "reverse" breathing); once the RD has stopped descending, then the central part is stable, so when the fibers contract they are now elevating the mid to lower ribs, expanding the thoracic cavity (the rib movement is triaxial, resulting in a hard to describe but easy to demonstrate motion); also, the external intercostals, braced on a stable thoracic spine, will elevate the ribs; levator costarum and paraspinals are also involved then all the accessories as well (46 muscles in total!);

this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is a good general descrption of respiratory biomechanics; this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/diaphap.gif&imgrefurl=http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/respire.htm&h=450&w=608&sz=13&hl=en&start=178&um=1&usg=__qkozlvnjZ9hxzZKoHFocOp6SZGs=&tbnid=xZLTARvN3MrQlM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKapandji%26start%3D168%26ndsp%3D21%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa %3DN) is about ribs specifically
the best pictures are in Kapandji, Physiology of the Joints, Vol. 3


never heard this bit about the RD atrophy; I would suggest that the degree of neuronal activation would decrease as opposed to actual atrophy of muscle fibers;


I'm surprised a PT was even talking about it, TBH! They barely mentioned anything about this stuff in school, and most PT's are so obsessed with the lumbar vertebrae that they don't even consider how the RD impacts things like low back pain (which is funny, considering how treating RD will often clear up dysfunction of the head, neck, low back, etc.)

in the mist of crap, you get this gem, which will probably be over looked.

[cjurakpt]

Hey, glad you jumped in. Hehe I was hoping I could bait you out.
:mad: curthes - foiled again...


This is why. Thanks for the more detailed description.
de nada; I actually have a whole "presentation" I wrote on it, but it's in semi-outline form, wouldn't try to post it here; PM me an e-mail, I can forward it to you if you want


Yeah he did though. That wasn't the only topic he covered though interestingly enough, LBP was part of the patients complaint. The PT basically covered posture, some exercises and the breathing as a combined effort to strengthen the core. The patient had some issues and posture was a big part of it and muscles that had not been getting enough use. They had to get the muscles back up to par before they could do anything else otherwise you know...they just gonna find themselves back at the beginning. It took me as a surprise cuz you know how health care is now days. Usually its just do this to fix that, please schedule another appointment for any other issues. He actually took the time to work through everything. Which was nice for me, cuz I was next to see that same PT
I guess there are a few out there...


in the mist of crap, you get this gem, which will probably be over looked.
or, more likely, ridiculed as either being jargon or d1ck-waving :rolleyes:

[CFT]

cjurakpt, you've covered the bio-mechanical / physiological basis for lower dan tien breathing but can you expand on the "why"?

Is it really more than getting more oxygen into the lungs/blood?

[unkokusai]

Mr. Raciest… Your screen name gives that away…

Because you hate other cultures and races, If they wanted to listen to the kind of stuff you’re talking about, they should go to a MMA forum or a K.K.K rally…

And I find your screen name very offensive, as any person of color should...
.




Ok, try this: Communicate in standard English just long enough to explain what the hell you are talking about, 'cause I have no idea what you are on about now. Really. :confused:

[Ali. R]

Just like roaches, turn the light on them and watch them run…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

That's not much in the way of an explanation of your strange and quite serious charges.

[CFT]

If Mr. Dyslexic (Ali R.) can get off his high horse and fire up Google, he will see that the translation of kokusai means "International". Unkokusai just seems to be a name - the first hit is to a manga movie: "Crayon Shin-chan: Unkokusai no Yabou".

[Mr Punch]

Not that I've finished with the actual discussion on this thread, but since I have no time this evening, just thought I'd chime in: Unko means ****, and kusai means stink. And yes, kokusai means international. Dunno what kukosai is or where Ali got it from or what he's burbling on about.

I'll be back to talk about dantien and breathing and all that crap later. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not that I've finished with the actual discussion on this thread, but since I have no time this evening, just thought I'd chime in: Unko means ****, and kusai means stink. And yes, kokusai means international. Dunno what kukosai is or where Ali got it from or what he's burbling on about.

I'll be back to talk about dantien and breathing and all that crap later. :D

I think Ali may have mistaken Kuro with Kuko.
Kuro being ONE of the "word" for black.

[unkokusai]

Mr. Punch is correct on the translation.


Still waiting for an explanation of the strange and serious charges.

[Ali. R]

I would like giving my apologies for that miss understanding or confusion…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

I know that newbees come here looking for information . . .

Ali Rahim.

Yes, and that's the really, really sad part: if someone comes here looking for genuine information about WCK and/or training all they get for the most part is fantasy, inane theories, hero worship, sifu sez, magical thinking, etc. -- in other words, bullsh1t. WCK bullsh1t. They should consider changing the name of the forum to reflect that so that people looking for WCK bullsh1t will be able to find it more easily.

Sorry to interrupt the bullsh1t, please carry on. :)

[Ali. R]

t_niehoff

You must be a bedpan, because every time you open your mouth, its makes me wanah take a dump…


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

Yes, and that's the really, really sad part: if someone comes here looking for genuine information about WCK and/or training all they get for the most part is fantasy, inane theories, hero worship, sifu sez, magical thinking, etc. -- in other words, bullsh1t. WCK bullsh1t. They should consider changing the name of the forum to reflect that so that people looking for WCK bullsh1t will be able to find it more easily.

Sorry to interrupt the bullsh1t, please carry on. :)

You know, it's funny. When I started in WC and jumped on this board I started to notice this theory vs. practical camp stuff happening. I thought it was silly and I just couldn't understand why people couldn't just get along...LOL.

Fast forward 5 years later and I totally see why the practical camp is always on the theory camp's a$$. You can totally tell who's not putting in the work, researching RBSD, etc, etc. All these people in their fantasy world talk all this crap about how Wing Chun *should* work. Instead...they should be finding out themselves how Wing Chun *does* work.

But it's about ego. It's about not wanting to step out of the comfort zone to have your butt handed to you by a BJJ player (or whomever) and then have a wake-up call.

All of a sudden because of differing views I get placed in the category that has been assigned to t_neihoff, sanjuro, anerlich, etc, etc. But I guess I'm just fine with that! At least these "kickboxer-extraordinaires" are putting in the time and really thinking LOGICALLY about how Wing Chun works in a combat situation. Not in a time where you can gather all your Dan Tien's energy and then blast it out at your opponent!

So. I'm on part with T's post here. And I'm done with this thread for now. Sheesh. I can't even sift through it to find where my last post was. What a waste.

[Ali. R]

But it's about ego. It's about not wanting to step out of the comfort zone to have your butt handed to you by a BJJ player (or whomever) and then have a wake-up call.

I've stepped out many times and had no problems… But I would love to see one of you guys take on a good boxer or a good wing chun guy… I have already been through the ideal of putting a clip out there, but it was rejected because it had to be in a pro setting against someone highly skilled in thier view… Not just some makeshift bjj, but someone known or a popular local guy, huhmmm, I wonder why? I say to you guys, put up or shut up, your own clip and no one else’s, use the girl next door, I don’t care, just prove to us (you yourself) that we are wrong...

I understand now, this stuff is way over your head (tradition understanding), this is a true fact; every ridged and uncoordinated person that cannot pick up the concepts of relaxation and mental calmness dumps the original ideal of martial arts… They invent their own playing field with their own rules because they simply can’t compete with those that have good hands or feet, so they would rather roll around in the mud….

You just can’t shoot on a guy with good hands or feet, you will pay for it and come out looking like hamburger when it’s all done…

I don’t have to put up those clips, but you’ve seen what happen to 'Shamrock'… And if you guys were really dedicated in what you do (bjj or whatever), you wouldn’t be wasting your time here on a wing chun forum…

Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Yes, and that's the really, really sad part: if someone comes here looking for genuine information about WCK and/or training :)

THIS is actually the sad part because its obvious none of you are getting this info from your Sifus.:(



You know, it's funny. When I started in WC and jumped on this board I started to notice this theory vs. practical camp stuff happening. I thought it was silly and I just couldn't understand why people couldn't just get along...LOL.

All you need to do is to pull any of the posts in this thread by Unkokusai and you will see clearly why people can’t just get along. You did the same thing in the Footwork/Retreat thread, Mr. Flight-Instead-Of-Fight, so, don’t act like you are not aware of your own BS. By the way, how is the science of the flanking step comming along?


… You can totally tell who's not putting in the work, researching RBSD, etc, etc.
Well we can actually see who is practicing some WC. Funny thing is I haven’t seen any proof of knowledge or practice of WC from you, terrence, unko or any of the other aforementioned blowhards.


But it's about ego. It's about not wanting to step out of the comfort zone to have your butt handed to you by a BJJ player (or whomever) and then have a wake-up call.

Funny thing is…there used to be a grappling group at our school. They stopped when Sifu Ali brought in the Woo Fai Ching System. Also as much as anyone we have given our thought publicly about grappling and any other art. But for some reason these so called ‘logical’ fighters have never shown up to test their glorified kickboxing, grappling, wrestling bouillabaisse on me or any of the other students at our kwoon. I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:


All of a sudden because of differing views I get placed in the category that has been assigned to t_neihoff, sanjuro, anerlich, etc, etc

So even you recognize that you are an @$$ among @$$&$. :eek:



At least these "kickboxer-extraordinaires" are putting in the time and really thinking LOGICALLY about how Wing Chun works in a combat situation. Not in a time where you can gather all your Dan Tien's energy and then blast it out at your opponent!

And we know this how? (See the Quote/response about the Pseudo- Bouillabaisse you guys practice.)




So. I'm on part with T's post here. And I'm done with this thread for now. Sheesh. I can't even sift through it to find where my last post was…

That’s because your posts are not worth reading as you never contribute anything of value.


What a waste.

At least we agree on something.

A Salaamu Alaikum, sofa-man! :p

[Ali. R]

Funny thing is…there used to be a grappling group at our school. They stopped when Sifu Ali brought in the Woo Fai Ching System.


Sorry ‘Chris’, I did what did; because they were simply in my way, with that rolling around on the ground crap, and I simply needed more space, and there will always be knuckleheads running into a wing chun brick wall…;)


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

in the mist of crap, you get this gem, which will probably be over looked.

Agreed. ;)

Still, getting back on subject, has anyone seen this cip before?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mo67yFiAzHs
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oIuUeu2B3qA&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aBEoslpEN1o&feature=related

Not sugesting they're the best, but at least the 1st clip is trying to show Wing Chun in a competitive environment. There are other clips I was trying to find which are little more skilled and 'oldskool' but these will do for now. I do like the old 'LeiTai' setting!

These type of comps were very popular in the UK during the eighties and it's good to see some kind of revival. I personally hope Alan Orr returns to Seni with a comp more like this one...

[sanjuro_ronin]

So even you recognize that you are an @$$ among @$$&$. :eek:




A Salaamu Alaikum, sofa-man! :p


Classy dude, these go together really well by the way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry ‘Chris’, I did what did; because they were simply in my way, with that rolling around on the ground crap, and I simply needed more space, and there will always be knuckleheads running into a wing chun brick wall…;)


Ali Rahim.

I've seen your clips on your youtube chanel, good stuff, but outside your Chi Sao match up, I don't see any fighting ones ( not that the chi sao one was fighting) or any VS grappling, will you be putting any up soon?

[unkokusai]

All you need to do is to pull any of the posts in this thread by Unkokusai and you will see clearly why people can’t just get along.




Even the ones where I tried to discuss the topic but got nothing but more of the "Stay out of our clubhouse!" nonsense? How about the ones where I posted a vid for discussion and was met with nipple jokes from the great 'real kungfu men'? And of course the ever popular accusations of racist from out of the blue!

Yeah, everything is everyone else's fault. Why can't people let you great masters just agree with yourselves in peace? That seems to be the basic premise of WC anyway.

[Ali. R]

Agreed. ;)

Still, getting back on subject, has anyone seen this cip before?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mo67yFiAzHs
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oIuUeu2B3qA&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aBEoslpEN1o&feature=related

Not sugesting they're the best, but at least the 1st clip is trying to show Wing Chun in a competitive environment. There are other clips I was trying to find which are little more skilled and 'oldskool' but these will do for now. I do like the old 'LeiTai' setting!

These type of comps were very popular in the UK during the eighties and it's good to see some kind of revival. I personally hope Alan Orr returns to Seni with a comp more like this one...


Sorry dude that was horrible, this is why so many people discount wing chun as a good fighting art… If I wasn’t a wing chun practitioner, I would totally be running away from the system as a hold, or even kung fu…

With that clip and marking it as really good; you all by yourself, make everyone’s case that’s against the tradition ideals, and if that’s what good wing chun should look like, then I quit…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Yeah, everything is everyone else's fault. Why can't people let you great masters just agree with yourselves in peace? That seems to be the basic premise of WC anyway.

I feel you, and agree with you… Again I would like to apologize…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

You know, it's funny. When I started in WC and jumped on this board I started to notice this theory vs. practical camp stuff happening. I thought it was silly and I just couldn't understand why people couldn't just get along...LOL.
And that is your first misunderstanding of Wing Chun or kung fu in general. All tradtitional kung fu training is in the "practical camp" as you put it. It is meant for fighting!


Fast forward 5 years later and I totally see why the practical camp is always on the theory camp's a$$.
That may be due to some sexual confusion relating to the hours of rolling around unecessarilly on the ground with their man-friends.;)


You can totally tell who's not putting in the work, researching RBSD, etc, etc.
Yes can totally tell who is not putting in the work and researching WING CHUN (or indeed KUNG FU) before embarking on a journey of needless crosstraining that sometimes contradicts the principles and concepts of Wing Chun itself. A contradiction whose (negative) significance these knuckleheads don't seem to fathom.



All these people in their fantasy world talk all this crap about how Wing Chun *should* work. Instead...they should be finding out themselves how Wing Chun *does* work.
And one of the best ways to find out is to practise it holisticacaly, the way it was designed to be practised and from a REAL sifu who is willing to teach you and NOT IN YOU LOCAL MMA GYM!


But it's about ego.
NO, it is about the crosstrainers' short attention span. They just switch off when things get a little complicated and deep.


It's about not wanting to step out of the comfort zone to have your butt handed to you by a BJJ player (or whomever) and then have a wake-up call.

It is about not stepping out of your comfort zone before you have acquired the necessary knowledge and skill.

And by the way, how many times have you stepped out of your own comfort zone and have gone to your local China Town to challenge a kung fu sifu to a REAL FIGHT (not a ring fight)?


All of a sudden because of differing views I get placed in the category that has been assigned to t_neihoff, sanjuro, anerlich, etc, etc.
That is because apparently you are in the same camp as them.


But I guess I'm just fine with that! At least these "kickboxer-extraordinaires" are putting in the time and really thinking LOGICALLY about how Wing Chun works in a combat situation.
Yes, they are doing all that WITHOUT bothering to study Wing Chun the way it was meant to be studied. That is, without understanding the internals, Iron Palm and other technical aspects including grappling techniques (and yes ground fighting in some lineages) and some of the less common striking methods of this art.

So what they are doing is researching OTHER arts without having first gained an even fundemental understanding of Wing Chun.


Not in a time where you can gather all your Dan Tien's energy and then blast it out at your opponent!
To my knowledge no one has discussed chi blasts in this thread. If you think they have, then please tell us where!


So. I'm on part with T's post here.
See, that is one reason why you are in the same camp as the knuckleheads.


And I'm done with this thread for now.
And just when things were getting interesting.:D


Sheesh. I can't even sift through it to find where my last post was.
You can blame another of this forum's knuckleheads, unkokusai for that!


What a waste.
Yes, he is.

[unkokusai]

that rolling around on the ground crap.



............................... :rolleyes:



Why? Oh why aren't great masters like you taken seriously outside your own little sewing circles?

[Ali. R]

I've seen your clips on your youtube chanel, good stuff, but outside your Chi Sao match up, I don't see any fighting ones ( not that the chi sao one was fighting) or any VS grappling, will you be putting any up soon?

I would like to put some up, but it would be a lot of work only to get shot down because I will out class the guy, then it would look like I picked a bum… The members here already put their signatures on that one… I’m screwed if I do and screwed if I don’t…

It wont prove anything.

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

I feel you, and agree with you… Again I would like to apologize…


Ali Rahim.





Don't worry about it.

[unkokusai]

I would like to put some up, but it would be a lot of work only to get shot down because I will out class the guy, then it would look like I picked a bum…



It would be easy enough to tell if you did or not from watching the vid. But even that would be better than nothing and the basis of discussion

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would like to put some up, but it would be a lot of work only to get shot down because I will out class the guy, then it would look like I picked a bum… The members here already put their signatures on that one… I’m screwed if I do and screwed if I don’t…

It wont prove anything.

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

Perhaps, but for those of us that have actually fought, it easy to see what someone is doing right or wrong, even if he is far better than his opponent.
Of course, it is up to you, unfortunately for me, Kentuky is not just around the corner or I would love to come by and see first hand your stuff.

[HardWork8]

t_niehoff

You must be a bedpan, because every time you open your mouth, its makes me wanah take a dump…


Ali Rahim.

I always figured t_niehoff for a comedian but now I believe he can help a lot of people who suffer from constupation.

Perhaps Cjurakpt can offer him a job in his clinic. They will make a good team for sure with Cjurakpt giving everyone he meets constupation with his unnecessary medical jargon and t_niehoff curing them instantly with his "functional" monologues...LOL!

Seriously though, those two working together can make some serious money!

And if you are reading this cjurakpt and t_niehoff I want my usual 15% percent commission for suggesting the idea.;)

[HardWork8]

Of course, it is up to you, unfortunately for me, Kentuky is not just around the corner or I would love to come by and see first hand your stuff.

Maybe it is FORTUNATELY for you?

[Ali. R]

It would be easy enough to tell if you did or not from watching the vid. But even that would be better than nothing and the basis of discussion

Now let’s try not to switch it around, It was you that put up a clip of a makeshift wing chun guy fighting a grappler and that clip has not proven anything in my book, and like some one said, “they seen my stuff” and said it was good, and I thank you for that…

I’ve ready step up and it was shut down, in which made it a sensitive situation for me… And it would be hard for me to do something just because someone wants to see what I can do, rather then taking it, when I tried to offer it…

Now could someone else step up? I’m sure you wouldn’t have to go through the stipulation as I did before posting a sparring clip.


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

Yes, of course, that's it. :rolleyes:


Where have we heard that kind of empty excuse before...? Something about some kind of somebody competing in somekind of competition or other... so hard to remember...

Don't worry, just keep on taking your medication and it will all come back to you.

[Ali. R]

Don't worry, just keep on taking your medication and it will all come back to you.

LOL... Oh my goodness, you keep dropping these hammers and they’re falling right on my kidneys, I’ve almost shardid…:)


Ali Rahim.

[1bad65]

I would like to put some up, but it would be a lot of work only to get shot down because I will out class the guy, then it would look like I picked a bum… The members here already put their signatures on that one… I’m screwed if I do and screwed if I don’t…

It wont prove anything.

Oh Jesus. Not this bs again. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

It was you that put up a clip of a makeshift wing chun guy...

You got all the standard WC excuses down pat, don't you?

[unkokusai]

Now let’s try not to switch it around, It was you that put up a clip of a makeshift wing chun guy fighting a grappler and that clip has not proven anything in my book, .



Well that right there is the first semi-serious comment on the clip so far! What makes you say he was a "makeshift" WC guy? He is listed as sifu-somethingorother. Do you know of him?

[unkokusai]

I’ve ready step up and it was shut down, .




Afraid I missed it. Do you have a link to it?

[HardWork8]

LOL... Oh my goodness, you keep dropping these hammers and they’re falling right on my kidneys, I’ve almost shardid…:)


Ali Rahim.

Sorry about that Ali. I was aiming the hammers at the knuckleheads, they must have bounced off their Iron Skulls and hit your kidneys. :)

They must be using some kind of a secret modern training to create that kind of thickness in their skulls.:eek:

[HardWork8]

He is listed as sifu-somethingorother.

Being listed a sifu means nothing. Most of the knucklehead Glorified Kickboxers in this thread call themselves sifus as well - that is, when they are not calling themselves "senseis", "coaches", "Selfdefense instructors",etc.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Being listed a sifu means nothing.



Nobody asked you, Basement Boy. Go run and fetch one of your 'real kungfu' masters a cup of coffee or something and STFU.

[Ali. R]

You got all the standard WC excuses down pat, don't you?

Not excuses you can easily search the forum and find the stipulation, that I had to take or go through...

You remind me of a move character; that steal the wrong ring and turns into a troll… I almost expect you to start muttering, “WE WANTS IT”. WE NEEDS IT”. MUST HAVE THE PERCIOUS…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

Nobody asked you, Basement Boy. Go run and fetch one of your 'real kungfu' masters a cup of coffee or something and STFU.

I can just take so much from you before losing my temper and attacking you with some nipple clamps.:D

[unkokusai]

Oh yeah, hilarious... :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

You remind me of a move character; that steal the wrong ring and turns into a troll… I almost expect you to start muttering, “WE WANTS IT”. WE NEEDS IT”. MUST HAVE THE PERCIOUS…

Actually some video of you proving your ridiculous claims will suffice.

[HardWork8]

Not excuses you can easily search the forum and find the stipulation, that I had to take or go through...

You remind me of a move character; that steal the wrong ring and turns into a troll… I almost expect you to start muttering, “WE WANTS IT”. WE NEEDS IT”. MUST HAVE THE PERCIOUS…


Ali Rahim.

And 1bad65 seems to be another one who - just like unkokusai - "forgot" to mention that he practices kung fu, in his profile.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

And 1bad65 seems to be another one who - just like unkokusai - "forgot" to mention that he practices kung fu, in his profile.:rolleyes:



I have trained a lot of things for just a few years (like your few years of kungfu) but unlike you, I won't try to take credit for something I really don't deserve to (like you don't deserve to keep trying to claim to be a 'real kungfu man').

Keep posing, poser.

[Ali. R]

Actually some video of you proving your ridiculous claims will suffice.

Would someone please but something in his mouth, I have to go to the bathroom…


Ali Rahim.

[1bad65]

And 1bad65 seems to be another one who - just like unkokusai - likes to see proof when someone makes ridiculous assertions.

Fixed that for ya.

[Ali. R]

Would someone please but something in his mouth, I've got to go to the bathroom…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

I have trained a lot of things for just a few years
Just like your Glorified Kickboxer friends here, "jack-off" all trades.;)


(like your few years of kungfu)
That is "few" years of REAL KUNG FU. I am glad that I cleared that one up.


but unlike you,

Unlike me, you are just another knucklehead with a chip on his shoulder.


I won't try to take credit for something I really don't deserve to (like you don't deserve to keep trying to claim to be a 'real kungfu man').
And that is because you are not a REAL kung fu man!

You are just another knucklehead with chip on your shoulder....it is all in the tone of your posts.


Keep posing, poser.

That last comment was very revealing regarding your way of thinking (with a small "t", in your case), because you believe that a person who studies kung fu in an authentic school with an authentic sifu and says so, is "posing".

You need help. Look, I'll make a deal with you. You go and see some more mental health specialists within the next 7 days and I promise to put away the nipple clamps. Ok?

[HardWork8]

And 1bad65 seems to be another one who - just like unkokusai - likes to see proof when someone makes ridiculous assertions.

"Ridiculous assertions" like kung fu is a fighting art? That Wing Chun is a practical martial art?

Are you really doubting Kung fu's claim to be a potent martial art?

If you don't see any validity in traditional kung fu training then that is your right, but why post here in a KUNG FU forum?


Fixed that for ya.
It looks like you need to fix your own kung fu understanding.:rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

He hasn’t given up any real information, just jibber… his post has less appeal, then a black barbee doll with the hair burned out…


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

That is "a very few" years of REAL KUNG FU. you are not a REAL kung fu man! a person who studies kung fu in an authentic school with an authentic sifu, a REAL kung fu man!




I find it hard to believe that the advocates of kungfu here are so desperate to bolster their numbers that they would allow a ridiculous clown like you to hang around saying silly **** like this and discrediting all that they are presumably trying to do.

[unkokusai]

less appeal then a black barbee doll with the hair burned out… .


Ok, what the hell does that mean?

[1bad65]

"Ridiculous assertions" like kung fu is a fighting art? That Wing Chun is a practical martial art?

Are you really doubting Kung fu's claim to be a potent martial art?

Yes, I am doubting it.

Until I see video of it actually working in an 'alive' setting, I'll put as much faith in it as I do claims about UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, or Bigfoot.

[Ali. R]

To play with a burned doll will not be in the interest of any child… yet alone, too read one of his posts.


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

Would someone please but something in his mouth, I have to go to the bathroom…


Ali Rahim.

I think that someone "put something in unkokusai's mouth" when he was a young boy and that is why he has grown up to be a mixed up, complex-ridden and confused knucklehead.

We must all come together and pity him for his loneliness, confusion and desperation that forces him to surf the internet throwing insults at people he doesn't know about subject matters (kung fu) that he has no hope of understanding, even risking serious injury from a nipple clamp assault, just to get that bit of attention to cushion his chronic lonliness.

[unkokusai]

To play with a burned doll will not be in the interest of any child… yet alone, too read one of his posts.


Ali Rahim.


Why a black Barbie specifically, and why burned hair rather than simply 'broken'? Is there some significance I'm missing?

[unkokusai]

I think that someone "put something in unkokusai's mouth" when he was a young boy and that is why he has grown up to be a mixed up, complex-ridden and confused knucklehead.

We must all come together and pity him for his loneliness, confusion and desperation that forces him to surf the internet throwing insults at people he doesn't know about subject matters (kung fu) that he has no hope of understanding, even risking serious injury from a nipple clamp assault, just to get that bit of attention to cushion his chronic lonliness.



Really funny stuff Basement Boy, really. Super.... :rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

Yes, I am doubting it.

Until I see video of it actually working in an 'alive' setting, I'll put as much faith in it as I do claims about UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, or Bigfoot.

Well why wait for the video.

All you have to do is get together with unkokusai (don't forget to take plenty of tissues with you to wipe off the drool from his mouth) and t_niehoff (don't forget the ear plugs) and go to your local China Town and make a few challenges (to real fights and not sparring/full contact etc).

Then bring us the videos of all the fights you have won.:rolleyes:

Why do you want others to prove your point?

[HardWork8]

Really funny stuff Basement Boy, really. Super.... :rolleyes:

Truth can sometimes be funny, young man, if sad (in your case) at the same time.

[unkokusai]

Which is Basement Boy's way of saying that he cannot in fact produce anything that will verify his claims.





I'm still wondering why the WC guy in the vid I posted didn't even try to use any of the WC ground fighting techniques I keep hearing about.

[unkokusai]

Truth can sometimes be funny.



But you never can.

[HardWork8]

Is there some significance I'm missing?

Around 50 billion brain cells!

[Ali. R]

Why a black Barbie specifically, and why burned hair rather than simply 'broken'? Is there some significance I'm missing?

I think in laughter no one and nothing is excluded (only in fun), so why not make fun of myself and my kind as well…


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

But you never can.
I believe that I just proved that I can, of course with plenty of help from the TRUTH.;)

[Ali. R]

Around 50 billion brain cells!

Dude you’re funny has h#ll, and I know the difference...


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

I think in laughter no one and nothing is excluded (only in fun), so why not make fun of myself and my kind as well…

Ali, I think it is much more fun, making fun of unkokusai's "kung fu knowledge" :) of course,not forgetting his nipples.:eek:

[unkokusai]

Around 50 billion brain cells!



Yeah, super, super funny...good one...hilarious...

[HardWork8]

First of all that Wing Chun sifu in your video didn't even seem to know his striking, let alone ground fighting.



I'm still wondering why the WC guy in the vid I posted didn't even try to use any of the WC ground fighting techniques I keep hearing about.

Two Reasons:

Reason 1:
For whatever reason Wing Chun grappling techniques are not taught in most Wing Chun schools. Most of the "sifus" don't even know that they exist.

Yes, surprise, surprise, it is the "Standardize and make quick money" kung fu phenomenom, also known as the Mc dojo/kwoon phenomenom.


Reason2:
It is those nipples I tell you!

[HardWork8]

Yeah, super, super funny...good one...hilarious...

You are half way there in curing your mental complexes now that you have started laughing at yourself (the way the rest of us laugh at you).

[unkokusai]

I believe that I just proved that I can



You keep telling yourself that...

[HardWork8]

Dude you’re funny has h#ll, and I know the difference...


Ali Rahim.

Thanks Ali. These knucklehead "kungfu-ist" kickboxers bring out the humor (and sometimes my lunch).

[unkokusai]

Dude you’re funny has h#ll,.



I was really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you have taken two steps back again...

[HardWork8]

You keep telling yourself that...
Of course I will. What, you think I am going to waste my time talking to people like you? :eek:

[HardWork8]

I was really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you have taken two steps back again...

The only steps he has taken are the ones he has used to squash your non-existant credibility even further.

[unkokusai]

First of all that Wing Chun sifu in your video didn't even seem to know his striking, let alone ground fighting.



Two Reasons:

Reason 1:
For whatever reason Wing Chun grappling techniques are not taught in most Wing Chun schools. Most of the "sifus" don't even know that they exist.

Yes, surprise, surprise, it is the "Standardize and make quick money" kung fu phenomenom, also known as the Mc dojo/kwoon phenomenom.



So let me guess, any vid of any WC 'sifu' losing and/or looking clumsy and silly must necessarily be one of those who just haven't gotten that super-special training, right? Most 'sifu' don't even know it exists, but you are sure it is an intregal part of 'da realz' WC, right? Any WCer who loses simply hasn't been privy to this -super-special, almost no one knows about, but is a central part-training and/or goes to a McKwoon, right?

That works out pretty well. Any WC who admit this weakness in WC are not 'da realz,' any vid showing a WCer losing is in fact (by the super-special logic of WC) proof that they are not 'da realz' because 'da realz' would of course have won, and no evidence of this super-special training need be provided because it is so super-special and rare and whydon'tyougotoChinatownandfightsmartguy? Right?

The credibility is just off the scale!!!

:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

The only steps he has taken are the ones he has used to squash your non-existant credibility even further.



Yeah...that's exactly what has happened...

[HardWork8]

I will attempt to answer your queries as seriously as possible (:rolleyes:) as it seems that you have made an effort to write one of your longest posts in this forum. I know that it must have put a lot of stress on your fragile attention span.



So let me guess,
First of all, you have been "guessing" wrong up to now. What makes you think that now you are going to guess right?


any vid of any WC 'sifu' losing and/or looking clumsy and silly must necessarily be one of those who just haven't gotten that super-special training, right?
Not even that. Some of them look like they haven't gotten the basic training.


Most 'sifu' don't even know it exists, but you are sure it is an intregal part of 'da realz' WC, right?
Right.:)


Any WCer who loses simply hasn't been privy to this -super-special, almost no one knows about, but is a central part-training and/or goes to a McKwoon, right?
Not always. There are some kwoons that teach the striking aspects of Wing Chun very well.


That works out pretty well. Any WC who admit this weakness in WC are not 'da realz,' any vid showing a WCer losing is in fact (by the super-special logic of WC) proof that they are not 'da realz' because 'da realz' would of course have won,

You have missed the point (yet again!). People can lose or win fights and no stylist is immune from that. It is how they lose or win fights that tells the story.

As I stated before, the wing chunner in your video did not even seem to be a good striker.


and no evidence of this super-special training need be provided because it is so super-special and rare

It is rare apparently and unfortunately (I mean that!).
As far as the evidence goes, I have the evidence and so do some others. On the other hand, you and some of your Glorified (and currently silent) kickboxer friends are the ones who don't have the evidence.


whydon'tyougotoChinatownandfightsmartguy? Right?

Right!

However, if you take that suggestion then don't blame or sue me if as a result you end up even more brain damaged than you are now.


The credibility is just off the scale!!!

Of course it is and that is why you should do more kung fu research before you open your "forum" mouth.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't even wanna guess what is going on behind all those ignores, LOL !

People, people, there is only one video that shows the real WC:

http://twitchfilm.net/site/view/kick-ass-trailer-for-ip-man/

[unkokusai]

I hope no one still seriously wonders why WC doesn't get the respect they think it deserves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trying to get back on the actual topic, are there ANY videos of WC that actually everyone can agree on?
Besides Donnie's of course :D

[cjurakpt]

cjurakpt, you've covered the bio-mechanical / physiological basis for lower dan tien breathing but can you expand on the "why"?
Is it really more than getting more oxygen into the lungs/blood?
when you inhale deeply w/"natural" breathing (abdomen relaxes / expands on inhalation), respiratory diaphragm descends and presses against the contents of the abdomen, which move in response because the anterior abdominal wall is not contracting; this slowly increases intra-abdominal pressure, which has the effect of "squeezing" or wringing out the abdominal viscera; this contributes to generalized lymphatic venous return, as well as mechanically stimulating the various viscera, which enhances function in general; again, because the abdominal contents are not firmly held in place when you do this, this seems to encourage a parasympathetic nervous system response (the de-stressing or "rest / digest" part of the autonomic nervous system), which has the effect of inhibiting stress response;

the second type of breathing is a bit trickier to understand / explain, because of what you actively do while inhaling and exhaling; basically, when you inhale, you contract anterior abdominal wall, as well as pelvic floor (and also pedal arches, IMPE); this has the effect of creating a "box" where the intra-abdominal pressure increases more quickly and to a greater degree; as such, it limits movement of viscera and descent of the RD more quickly and therefore creates more movement of the rib cage earlier on, and has the effect of actually allowing for greater power of the RD to expand the lower / mid costal cage because it is stabilized more firmly now (some people call this thoracic breathing, but don't confuse that with upper chest breathing, because here it's still RD that's driving the breath, not the accessory muscles); in general, this has a tonifying effect on sympathetic nervous system ("fight /flight" or immune response); one reason for this is that it increases intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure faster and to a greater degree, and also really mobilizes the rib-cage, because it expands it more; right next to where the ribs connect to the spine are, from T1 to T12, the sympathetic chain ganglion, which are "activated" by this combined movement / pressure; as such, you can feel "charged up" doing this sort of breathing: increase in BP, HR, you feel warmer, you can get the hair on your arms to stand up, that sort of thing; this is what yogi's call Fire Breathing; when practicing Taoist internal cultivation, this type breathing is often used to assist opening up various internal channels (e.g. - the whole imagery of "dragons ascending in the field" is based on this type of breath); the whole notion of "enticing the breath" is based on this; and that's why when you do this sort of breathing, you don't just tighten your gut and butt and huff / puff away - it's a lot more subtle than that, the way you "pluck up" the pelvic floor in conjunction with keeping the anterior abdominal wall firm - it's very easy to force this and end up with undesired results, which is why this sort of thing is not recommended to do on one's own as a beginner (for example, you can get a whopper of a headache if you push it too hard the wrong way);

BTW, I'm sorry this wasn't six pages long and full of more unnecessary jargon; I will try to do better next time :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Trying to get back on the actual topic, are there ANY videos of WC that actually everyone can agree on?

The problem is as Unkokusai said; whenever a WC guy loses the excuse is he didn't have 'The Real WC'. The only ones of them 'winning' are compliant one-step demos. There have been claims of it working in 'alive' situations, but I've never seen any videos of that. Supposedly Ali has a few, but he won't put them up. :rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

when you inhale deeply w/"natural" breathing (abdomen relaxes / expands on inhalation), respiratory diaphragm descends and presses against the contents of the abdomen, which move in response because the anterior abdominal wall is not contracting; this slowly increases intra-abdominal pressure, which has the effect of "squeezing" or wringing out the abdominal viscera; this contributes to generalized lymphatic venous return, as well as mechanically stimulating the various viscera, which enhances function in general; again, because the abdominal contents are not firmly held in place when you do this, this seems to encourage a parasympathetic nervous system response (the de-stressing or "rest / digest" part of the autonomic nervous system), which has the effect of inhibiting stress response;

the second type of breathing is a bit trickier to understand / explain, because of what you actively do while inhaling and exhaling; basically, when you inhale, you contract anterior abdominal wall, as well as pelvic floor (and also pedal arches, IMPE); this has the effect of creating a "box" where the intra-abdominal pressure increases more quickly and to a greater degree; as such, it limits movement of viscera and descent of the RD more quickly and therefore creates more movement of the rib cage earlier on, and has the effect of actually allowing for greater power of the RD to expand the lower / mid costal cage because it is stabilized more firmly now (some people call this thoracic breathing, but don't confuse that with upper chest breathing, because here it's still RD that's driving the breath, not the accessory muscles); in general, this has a tonifying effect on sympathetic nervous system ("fight /flight" or immune response); one reason for this is that it increases intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure faster and to a greater degree, and also really mobilizes the rib-cage, because it expands it more; right next to where the ribs connect to the spine are, from T1 to T12, the sympathetic chain ganglion, which are "activated" by this combined movement / pressure; as such, you can feel "charged up" doing this sort of breathing: increase in BP, HR, you feel warmer, you can get the hair on your arms to stand up, that sort of thing; this is what yogi's call Fire Breathing; when practicing Taoist internal cultivation, this type breathing is often used to assist opening up various internal channels (e.g. - the whole imagery of "dragons ascending in the field" is based on this type of breath); the whole notion of "enticing the breath" is based on this; and that's why when you do this sort of breathing, you don't just tighten your gut and butt and huff / puff away - it's a lot more subtle than that, the way you "pluck up" the pelvic floor in conjunction with keeping the anterior abdominal wall firm - it's very easy to force this and end up with undesired results, which is why this sort of thing is not recommended to do on one's own as a beginner (for example, you can get a whopper of a headache if you push it too hard the wrong way);

BTW, I'm sorry this wasn't six pages long and full of more unnecessary jargon; I will try to do better next time :rolleyes:

Don't worry, no harm done. I was keeping my head down while you were
d1ckwaving all over the place. I just hope that you didn't break any items of furniture in your room.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

HW8 is easily intimidated because he knows he's a fraud and an idiot.

[HardWork8]

I don't even wanna guess what is going on behind all those ignores, LOL !

Why guess? I know that for a fact that you are reading every single post in this thread.:rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry dude that was horrible, this is why so many people discount wing chun as a good fighting art… If I wasn’t a wing chun practitioner, I would totally be running away from the system as a hold, or even kung fu…

With that clip and marking it as really good; you all by yourself, make everyone’s case that’s against the tradition ideals, and if that’s what good wing chun should look like, then I quit…

I hear ya Ali. :cool:

I DID say they weren't the best clips out there and I have had a hard time finding decent stuff on Youtube lately. There was a clip, but I can't find it! At the end of the day, clips prove nothing and all I was doing was trying to get the thread back on subject. :o Don't you find all this squibbling boring?


Trying to get back on the actual topic, are there ANY videos of WC that actually everyone can agree on?
Besides Donnie's of course

The clip you put up takes ages! Is it like this one? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8YHIBibqhpk

I've also added a few favourites here http://uk.youtube.com/profile_favorites?user=yumyeurng108

[HardWork8]

The problem is as Unkokusai said; whenever a WC guy loses the excuse is he didn't have 'The Real WC'. The only ones of them 'winning' are compliant one-step demos.

And I have told you both where you can find the REAL wing chun and indeed the real kung fu, because it is kung fu that you are criticizing and not just Wing Chun.

If you are really feeling adventurous then go to your local China Town and challenge a gangster. I am sure some of them will be more than willing to enlighten you on the funcionality of kung fu - starting with your testicles.


There have been claims of it working in 'alive' situations, but I've never seen any videos of that.
I don't think that those gangsters make videos aimed at the knucklehead market. So it will just have to be a "personal" demonstration as far as you and unkokusai are concerned.;)

[Ali. R]

Supposedly Ali has a few, but he won't put them up. :rolleyes:

Man, you sound like eight years old child, which just had his ice cream slapped out of his hand… Your just glutting for punishment, just like ‘Rocky’, right hand after right hand, etc… :confused:


Ali Rahim.

[unkokusai]

it is kung fu that you are criticizing and not just Wing Chun.



Actually, it's just idiots like you that we are criticizing.

[unkokusai]

If you are really feeling adventurous then go to your local China Town and challenge a gangster. I am sure some of them will be more than willing to enlighten you on the funcionality of kung fu - starting with your testicles.





How often are you going to repeat this nonsense? Do you really imagine in your simple little mind that real life is like some bad kungfu movie? You're an idiot.

[HardWork8]

Actually, it's just idiots like you that we are criticizing.

That would be a potent comment coming from intellectually sound human beings. Unfortunately for you and your fellow short attention span knuckleheads, none of you are intellectually qualified to call anyone an idiot.

Your intelligence is limited to standing in front of each other in an arena and hitting one another in the head with minimum (kung fu) technique or strategy until the one with the lesser number of brain cells is left standing - The "winner", I presume.

Talk about turning Darwin's Theory of Evolution, upside down.

Then many of these "winners" open 'kung fu' schools and come into forums such as this and promote the virtues of crosstraining and "functional" martial arts.

It is an interesting phenomenom, I must say.:rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

How often are you going to repeat this nonsense? Do you really imagine in your simple little mind that real life is like some bad kungfu movie?

I don't know as I don't watch bad movies of any genre. How many bad kung fu movies have you seen?

Kung fu challenges have been taking place for many many years. Less nowadays, but they are not uncommon.

There now, you have been given the knowledge. I hope that single cell organ floating randomly between your cabbage ears can handle it.




You're an idiot.

Be a good boy and see my previous post.

[unkokusai]

That would be a potent comment coming from intellectually sound human beings. Unfortunately for you and your fellow short attention span knuckleheads, none of you are intellectually qualified to call anyone an idiot.


You really don't understand how incredibly stupid you are, do you?



What a sad, sad *******.

[HardWork8]

I hear ya Ali. :cool:

I DID say they weren't the best clips out there and I have had a hard time finding decent stuff on Youtube lately. There was a clip, but I can't find it! At the end of the day, clips prove nothing and all I was doing was trying to get the thread back on subject. :o Don't you find all this squibbling boring?



The clip you put up takes ages! Is it like this one? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8YHIBibqhpk

I've also added a few favourites here http://uk.youtube.com/profile_favorites?user=yumyeurng108

Thanks Lone Tiger,

Some interesting stuff in your link. :)