how effective is Mantis?

[GreyMystik]

ok, i posted once before but got very small response, so i'm hoping some more mantis players out there will respond this time! please tell me, in your opinion, just how effective Praying Mantis KungFu is in a street fight, and how long YOU think it takes to get to a comfortable level where you can use your mantis style effectively? Thanks in advance to all who respond...

[8StepStudent]

Praying Mantis is very effective in a street fight. If you don't believe me then just check out the 8 Step homepage http://www.8step.com and read the history section specifically where it talk about how Master Wei took out a mob of angry Koreans. Like I said before about martial proficiency, I never kept track of it, but I'd probably say once you get to the Black Belt ranks probably even before that I would say too. Also Master Sun in an interview talked about how people in general though Kung Fu couldn't help you in a street fight, but he told the interviewer that he begs to differ and he can teach you how to use it in the street. All in all it's very effective

[Papieboni]

Praying Mantis Kung Fu is very effective art if applied properly and efficiently. This is the true about any kung fu, no matter how different the art is.

Whatever art u study, if you train hard and is dedicated to leaning the true essence of the system you will be able to use it in the street or elsewhere.

How long does it take? I think that would depend on you!, the time you have to dedicate, your ability to accept information, process it and apply it, and a lot of of other variables.

[phantom]

B.K. Frantzis claims that prating mantis is most afriad of Hsing-I, I think because Hsing-I people place there hands in a way that is impossible to penetrate, and that Hsing-I has some charge that is impossible for mantis to block. What do you guys have to say bout this? I do not mean to disrespect you or your art. I love mantis myself. i just question B.k. Frantzis's laim about Hsing-I' superiority, although I really like Hsing-I, also.

[MiamiMantis]

How good your Mantis becomes depends on what you put into it. Remember it's the man that makes the system, not the system that makes the man. Mantis is just as effective in self-defense as any other system of kung fu, Northern or Southern. You have to keep in mind that when kung fu was in it's development, that were no AK 47's or assualt rifles or guns, so it's hard to prepare for those situations. Of course there are those out there who have been training for "20 years" and can pull out a man's heart and show it to him while it's still beating, or at least they think they can. Do you want to take a chance that your technique will disarm the person or that it will not and you get shot?, maybe fatally?. What about your kids and wife or parents?, you don't do them any good dead. My point is use common sense,and don't be a hero. I rather lose my wallet then my life. Fight the battles you can win. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Generally my response to people who ask about the effectiveness of any given style is this:
The traditional arts survived because the practitioners survived. That quite often meant taking a life or multiple lives. The modern versions have possibly been watered down for various reasons but there are more than enough usable techniques in any style if you look, study and experiment. I've found that slight variations in what I learned produce some very interesting results.

[8StepStudent]

Dealing with the Hsing-I I don't know about other mantis styles, but 8 Step contains some Hsing-I in it, so I don't think we'd be afraid of something we knew.

[BaguaMantis]

I have found mantis to be very effective. what it all really depends on it mindset. most people seem to be able to learn these systems and the one time they get in a fight, the adrenaline rush freezes them up. other people are either just naturally maniacal and can easily deal with the adrenal stress. i had been in a few fights (mostly unsucessful ones) prior to beginning my training. I came in with the slight advantage of not being afraid of being hit, or of having to hit so i picked up the fighting aspects pretty quickly. as far as the mantis vs hsing i, i have never heard it and i really dont understand the reasoning. ive seen hsing i, and i really cant see how its that much different that a mantis practicioner couldnt use their system against.

--Jared--
The journey of 1000 miles begins with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire.

[Robinf]

I think Adam Hsu dispells that myth in his Sword Polishers Record. Been a while since I've read it, but he's so down to earth about kung fu, I'm fairly certain that's in there.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Rolling Elbow]

An attack that Mantis cannot handle..mm, soo much of this is dependent on the practitioner that i find it hard to believe that any art would have an attack that cannot be blocked...they are all good styles. My instructor for example teaches us bujinkan taijutsu..he has however attained teaching levels in chinese arts and two diff systems of karate..From time to time he'll throw in some CLF or wing chun, and I'm sure HE can make it work against attacks or tactics in our system that are deemed "unstoppable" (all styles have these, as much a product of tradition i imagine as they are effectiveness)..it all comes down to EDUCATION. Once you know what the attack is, i doubt the Hsing-I practioner will really fool the mantis practitioner who is at his level..if they are both knowledgeable..it comes down to who makes the better decision, and who recovers quicker from their mistakes

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[kenpoman]

Fought off 50 Koreans injuring most, eh? You don't actually believe that, do you?

[8stepsifu]

Don't believe it. It was in the Korean Newspapers and he had to leave the country via personal connections. Remember that these weren't martial artist he was fighting and he was a Grandmaster of 8 Step Praying Mantis and Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan.

8Step Sifu

[7kicks]

Ithink 8stepsifu watches to many kung fu movies

[8stepsifu]

First of all it's not like he's the only kung fu master to do something like this and second of all I don't care if you believe it or not. It doesn't matter in the slightest to me.

8Step Sifu

[8StepStudent]

It's true. You guys are just too skeptical and like 8StepSifu said he's not the only one to do this. Perhaps you've heard of Wong Fei Hung. He did something similar too. Maybe you should read more and YOU should watch less movies.

[kenpoman]

Grandmaster or not, one individual wouldn't stand a chance (even more ridiculous when one brags that there were weapons involved). Heck, give him a gun and he'd still lose against 50 people.

Let's give you an opportunity to defend this propagandist claim...just provide evidence of the newspaper article. That shouldn't be so difficult, eh?

As for Wong Fei Hong...hahahahahaha. You guys have a real good sense of humor.

[This message was edited by kenpoman on 11-01-00 at 05:43 PM.]

[8stepsifu]

I doubt many of them weighed over 100 lbs and none of them had any skill. Then this guy hurricanes through leaving people on the ground with one hit knock outs or worse, tossing people into each other, their gonna scatter. He didn't beat them all up, he drove them off.

8Step Sifu

[Dreamer]

Even I can manage 50 stupid people but 50 stupid people with guns, don't think so.
Any normal crowd of 50 people trying to beat you up is going to make it. You can't fight off a crowd like that without a weapon. A stick at least. When they are close enough to hit you there will be like 8-16 hands and the same amount of feet coming at you in turns. Try fighting off 16 hands coming withing a couple of seconds...

Bottom line, most of these stories are exaggerated. You can escape 50 people but you can't beat them.

<font color = "#000033"> [b]D[b]reamer</font>

[Taijimantis]

You are correct in saying these stories are likely to be eggagerated, however nowhere in the story did I see any mention of guns being involved.

Grandmaster Chiu Chuk-Kai similarly defended one of his students who was being assaulted by a mob in Macau. He along with his #1 disciple, went down to the square, standing back to back fended off (I have heard versions ranging from 50 to 100 individuals)likely between 20-40 angry individuals. He was dressed in his long shirt of a Chinese gentleman and carried with him only an umbrella.

Grand Master Chiu held these men at bay until the authorities arrived at which point he simply blended into the crowd of onlookers due to his dress, and vanished. It wasnt until sometime later that the law figured out what had happened.

Master Chiu did not kill a soul, and many of these people returned asking him to teach them.

Supposing this was the case, it is not impossible to imagine this as fact. The style's positioning and footwork prevent one from being attacked by any more than eight individuals at a time (so I have been told) and with his trusted student to watch his back, it isnt so hard to envision grandmaster Chiu laying people out like falling Trees, one technique, one attacker out cold. In his late eighties and up to his death in 1991 the man could impale- while wakened by advanced digestive cancer- a solid wooden door with a rope dart.

I dont find the story difficult to swallow, and skepticism by western thinkers should be expected. Had I not seen the things I have of my Sifu, I would likely shrug it off too. But if the individuals were untrained, what chance do they have against a grandmaster who was reputed to have never lost a challange... even though people thought he was an opium addict because he was so thin...

But lets face it, whether it is three people or thirty attacking you it really doesnt matter to me. Any more than one or two is far too many for me... heck I dont even want to fight ONE person /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!!!

Anyway my two cents...

Namaste

[kenpoman]

The article stated that he injured most and killed four...and that the crowd had weapons of 'all sorts'. We can't downplay the story with him simply holding back the crowd when the point of the article is to promote the fierce effectiveness of mantis "injuring most and killing 4." The remark about guns was hypothetical (in that even if he had a gun he would still lose against 50)
It also mentions the actions of the Korean government, which was actually the Japanese government between 1905-1945 (1905-1910 protectorate 1910-1945 occupation). There are 2 points that don't sit well with me regarding this. First is that people blindly believe such absurdity without question or use of common sense. Second is that the claim is said to be a famous story printed in newspapers, etc., yet no documentation seems to exist today.

[8stepsifu]

There are many levels of kung fu, far beyond punching, kicking and throwing. I have had my first taste of the first level after you already know how to fight and if you had any concept of this you would understand as well. As for the account, I don't care, I'm not gonna hunt down a Korean newspaper article from the 20's for you. Being a kempo man you have limitations to what you can learn. Nuclular weapons are myths to a pygmy. Because you don't understand, doens't mean it's false or doesn't exist. I had my doubts until I started learning some of the deeper stuff. Was it exagerated? Probably. Newspapers are notorious for this, but it's safe to say that it was over 20. A lot of limited martial artists will see 20 hands and feet no doublt all coming at them with regimented chaos, but CMA will see waves and circles of bodies. I've gone through 5 unwilling people using tai chi techniques, turning, waving and splashing them into each other. These things are alien to you, but they do exist. How effective is Mantis? check out UFC 6 and 7. Joel Sutton was training under Master Sun. And that was only ring fighting

8Step Sifu

[Black Jack]

8 Step there you go getting all Chung Mo Quan again or would you be more comfortable with Shaolin-Do.

How is a kempo man limited on what he can learn??????????

That is laughable shaw brothers type of comment that makes no sense what so ever and it just goes to point out how nutty some of you 8 Steppers can sound when you take yourselfs to seriously.

I dont think that the legendary Great Grandmaster James Mitose who brought kenpo to America would ever be considered anything less than a one of a kind item or that he was ever limited on what he could learn or that his knowledge of the martial arts was not profound.

Or that the great Ed Parker was anything less than a revolutionary martial artist who modernized his martial art to the western mind by forging the east with the west and by always allowing his system to grow.

What about grandmasters like the late Bruce Jutnick or Al Tracy or Nick Cierco were they limited as well.

What do you think that your Grandmaster has that some these legends do not?

When you talk about a REAL martial arts legacy you should be talking about the Great Grandmaster James Mitose and the ever growing FAMILY art he left behind.

Regards

[8stepsifu]

I agree these men were awesome, I'm especially fond of Mitose, but there are things not only in 8-Step, but other style like CLF that have things that other people can't concieve of. There are many many aspects of 8 Step that would go way over my head and I wouldn't believethem if I saw them. Kenpo is great and I'll give it 200 years before it attains those levels as a system. Its kind of like the Empire State Building and the Sears Tower, both are very tall building, just as both are great systems, its just that 8-Step has higher levels of techniques and includes internal training and medical knowlege. At the high level a punch shuts down a chi meridian and thats not good, Its like putting a stick in a bike tire. In James Mitose's book "This is kempo" he tells of masters that would evade multiple people who were using swords using his "Escaping arts" I have yet to learn an escaping art in 8-step, because it seems from my perspective that the founders and Generation masters were adding and innovating in different directions. Peace being a priority for kempo stylists, isn't one in 8 Step's history. Also Master Wei was a Master of Wu style Tai Chi. What is possible through Tai Chi training is downright scary and from my caveman perspective would appear to be magic

8Step Sifu

[cgtan]

There are actually more to the story that master wei fended off the crowd. 8stepsifu, talk to James and ask him for more info, or get his pemission for me to give you the info.

[Goktimus Prime]

My proof that Mantis works in a fight?

I've been in street fights before, and I'm still alive. Is this good enough? :)

Also, a few famous people like Gen. Chiang Kai Shek had bodyguards who practised Praying Mantis.

"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever." - Chinese proverb

[Fu Manchu]

Goktimus Primal

You said:
"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever." - Chinese proverb

By asking a question to become "a fool for five minutes" suggest that he was NOT a fool until he asked a question.

How can he then "remain a fool forever" (for not asking a question) when he was NEVER a fool in the first place? As you stated you can only become a fool for asking a question.

Please clarify your logical flaw.

[on-jer]

To bring this thread back to the original question - 8 step, as taught by Master Wei, is an extremely effective self defense system. Each basic posture has an application. Every one of the moving steps, kicks and strikes can be used effectivly. The 3 two man forms (ie. 7 Hands, Pi Ja and Po On) teach timing and applications. The effectiveness is only diminished if the spirit and content is not true to Master Wei's teaching.

As for the Korea event - Master Wei fled the Communist (as they singled out and killed predominent masters)and went to Korea. He was a "cooker" - he worked in kitchen constantly working a big wok. There was discrimination among the cultures - when a Chinese patron was being asaulted, Master Wei retaliated using his hot wok as a weapon. He was able to defend the Chinese person, defeating the throng.

As a result, he fled briefly to the Mainland and then eventually to Taiwan, Taipei were he was employed working at the General High School.

[8stepsifu]

I don't see why I would need his permission if you have something to add. Please...tell me.

8Step Sifu

ON JER.....How did you know this? Anyway...thats cool. Was Master Wei Teaching Kung Fu at the High School or was he a High School teacher?

[Fu Manchu]

On-Jer

Did Master Wei work also work as a cook at the High School in Taiwan?

Did he take cooking class in his spare time? What did he cook when he was in Korea?

Did the restaurant that he was working in lose customers as a result of his fight?

Where can I find a complete history of Mster Wei?

[GreyMystik]

perhaps the proverb is indicating that when the person has the question, they are slated to become a fool either way... by asking, the person only becomes a fool for 5 minutes; by NOT asking, the person is a fool forever. this would still allow for the proverb without the logical flaw mentioned. or perhaps the infamous Schroedinger's Cat experiment logic could be applied here... whereas the person is neither "fool" nor "not fool", but rather both "fool" and "not fool" at the same time. ;)

[on-jer]

- I posted a reply yesterday but don't see it -

Master Wei actually used a sharp metal hook used to stir cooking braziers as a weapon (not a wok) in the Korean restaurant melee.

Master Wei was a son of a wealthy land owner. All was lost because of the Communist revolution. He had no real vocation, just martial arts.

He worked in the cafeteria of the General High School and taught in a park in Taipei.

I'll check to see how much of his history is in his book.

[Fu Manchu]

Hi GreyMystik,

I'm sure the originators of this proverb were also the founders of probability theory and quantum mechanics!

This principal would apply if the person makes a statement that's reasonable sounding rather than asking a question. The observer (person who hears the statement) will not be able to determine if he is or not a fool. (Given that the observer can only conclude that he is a fool when a question is asked)

The response of "Ah Ha, Ah Ha" may be useful in this circumstances. So that the provabial Cat is not let out of the Bag (errrrr I mean Box!!!)

[bakmae_]

praying mantis sucks my ass...that's all i have to say...any responses may be forwarded to ving tsun student

[bamboo_ leaf]

A bold, interesting and intelligent comment, typically given behind the mask of anonymity.

its been nice reading all the post on the mantis board here on KFO, I wish all a nice holiday and best wishes for the new year.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[GreyMystik]

hehehe

[palric]

Train hard in it for a few years, spend as much time as you can afford in studying the principles, technique and method of PM and then decide for yourself whether or not you want to make a life long journey of this system.

No one can answer your question -- as it pertains to you and your skill. In the end only you will know whether your PM is effective or not. This is something you have to figure out on your own.

Have a nice day.