The Hard Truth

[Satori Science]

off topic, but for all you deep thinkers out there its some stuff we are all thinking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuM8gVKvlc

[SimonM]

Can't watch Youtube from work. Just so I know what is the topic of this ambiguous thread?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Disaster Capitalism, Crisis Capitalism, etc.

New Orleans, 9/11, Iraq, etc.

[Shaolinlueb]

1/10 teh fail

[SimonM]

that's an awful lot of material for one little video.

[cjurakpt]

he's way off base in regards to at least one thing: the privatization of schools in New Orleans has been about the best thing that has happened to the public system in a long time:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/magazine/17NewOrleans-t.html

so to answer why they "had to" privatize them, I think it was more of a question of seizing an opportunity to restructure a failing system without having to go through the typical bureaucratic channels that would have probably derailed any major efforts at reform if it was simply business as usual

personally, I am always leery of someone who is "right" about things he has no direct experience with...

[Ultimatewingchun]

We've now privatized wealth (80% of it is in the hands of 3% of the population)...while socializing debt.

[Scott R. Brown]

We've now privatized wealth (80% of it is in the hands of 3% of the population)...while socializing debt.

It is no different in socialist countries. Throughout history, no matter what the form of government or economic system, the leaders and their cronies are the ones who benefit on the backs of the general population.

If capitalism isn't working it is because it isn't truly capitalism! Left alone it gives everyone equal opportunity to succeed. Those who work hard always do better than those who sit on their butts!

Unfortunately capitalism is never left alone.

With socialism people are encouraged to sit on their butts because they will get a "fair" share whether they work or not! That is why socialism doesn't work, there is no incentive to work when you can get something for nothing! When you depend upon the government to give you anything they have effectively enslaved you!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The guy in that Youtube clip is a complete idiot.

[bakxierboxer]

The guy in that Youtube clip is a complete idiot.

Kind of reminds me of Andrew Sullivan.... but far less "logical" and infinitely
whinier-sounding.

[Satori Science]

he's way off base in regards to at least one thing: the privatization of schools in New Orleans has been about the best thing that has happened to the public system in a long time:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/magazine/17NewOrleans-t.html

so to answer why they "had to" privatize them, I think it was more of a question of seizing an opportunity to restructure a failing system without having to go through the typical bureaucratic channels that would have probably derailed any major efforts at reform if it was simply business as usual

personally, I am always leery of someone who is "right" about things he has no direct experience with...

in that regard Hal may have been wrong, the article in the NY Times was pretty tragic. I suppose we are from Canada and assume that you would obviously be getting a good education in your public school system, we all did. You are the richest country in the world right, seems a little strange for your people to be so disenfranchised when it comes to public education?

[Satori Science]

The guy in that Youtube clip is a complete idiot.

In what ways did you think my Sihing was an idiot exactly? I put this up for the sake of discussion, cant say i found your comment particularly penetrating. Here how about this, comment on his statements, agree or disagree what ever you think

"real wages for working class people HAVE NOT changed since the early 1980's"

&/or

"the difference of capital needed to make up the balance of peoples increased consumption was funded by debt owned by major financial houses who are now defaulting because of their irresponsible/illegal banking practices"

go for it,

[Satori Science]

Kind of reminds me of Andrew Sullivan.... but far less "logical" and infinitely
whinier-sounding.

all canadians sound whinny, it comes from years of complaining about the winter, (at least in Saskatchewan);)

[Satori Science]

It is no different in socialist countries. Throughout history, no matter what the form of government or economic system, the leaders and their cronies are the ones who benefit on the backs of the general population.

If capitalism isn't working it is because it isn't truly capitalism! Left alone it gives everyone equal opportunity to succeed. Those who work hard always do better than those who sit on their butts!

Unfortunately capitalism is never left alone.

With socialism people are encouraged to sit on their butts because they will get a "fair" share whether they work or not! That is why socialism doesn't work, there is no incentive to work when you can get something for nothing! When you depend upon the government to give you anything they have effectively enslaved you!

doesn't that seem like a pretty stale, antiquated argument, i kinda felt like i was sitting thru a political science class in the 1950's. Not really that useful, its like saying that neither one of two made up monolithic ideologies has worked in the past so humans are just out of options and should stop worrying about what will happen to their children.

Personally I'm not going for it, i care about what my world is going to look like for me and my kids in say 10 years and do my best to consciously affect it(in little ways every day). Here i'll make up a new system for you right now, how about a "Democratic Socialism" with actual "free markets" ware competition/innovation is mandated and enforced. As opposed to what we have now ware there is no longer even the illusion of freedom in the market ie "Monopoly Capitalism"

Democracy and Neo-Liberal capitalist greed are not the same thing

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Robert, I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but here are a few thoughts: there were no laws broken in this current debacle. The lenders were following congressional mandates to basically give homes to those who can't afford it. That is why there are no calls for hearings on who to hold responsible. Congress would be holding hearings on themselves. Secondly, capitalism works fine if governments would stop acting like bad parents and allow people to fail. It is fear of failure/starving that motivates people to work. When people are protected from failure the take greater risks. Think of playing a computer game on GOD mode. When you have no fear of loss you play the game much more recklessly. If you have unlimited ammo you do not conserve it, you waste it. When we have something to lose we play more carefully and with more intelligence. If you risk more you stand to gain more, but you also risk losing more. In the end you become responsible for your own success or failure. This also has meaning in communist countries. I had a co-worker who defected from Poland when it was still communist. The entire economy was supported through black market free enterprise because the socialist system was so ineffective. While he was at work as a factory engineer he used company materials and company time and company tools to make furniture to trade on the black market. He said this was they only way to get the things you needed to surrive. The lesson here is, even when left to themselves in an ineffective economic system people will spontaneously organize themselves into a capitalistic system. Why do they do this? Because it works, it is natural and it follows the principles of Tao.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Solution 101: The federal Government sends each individual taxpayer $200,000.00 ($+/- 125,000.00 after 'taxes') that's $250,000.00 for a married couple.. a single 'enforcable' stipulation: that whatever portion is required (all if necessary) be paid toward paying-off the mortgage.. total cost to the Fed, +/- $100 billion.. as opposed to $700 billion that still funds a corrupt and mis-managed system.. the stimulus to the economy would be unprecedented.. and, the pay-back in higher taxes over a longer period of time would be easily digestable... it's the ultimate "reset" button.. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!!

This WILL work!!!

Be well...

[bakxierboxer]

in that regard Hal may have been wrong, the article in the NY Times was pretty tragic.

Actually, some might choose to view it as a long over-due case/clutch/gaggle of
"chickens coming home to roost".


I suppose we are from Canada and assume that you would obviously be getting a good education in your public school system, we all did.

I'll believe that when you start spelling "where" correctly.
(otoh, at least you're "consistent" in spelling it "ware")



You are the richest country in the world right, seems a little strange for your people to be so disenfranchised when it comes to public education?

The problem is that the so-called "franchise" now "belongs" to the government bureaucracies and the teachers unions.... which causes "clotting" in the form of irremediable/life-tenured non-functionaries (aka "teachers" and educational "management")

Another thing that tends to mess up the works is all of the new-fangled/nonsensical/so-called educational theories being spewed/vomited forth from the teacher's colleges at our so-called institutions of higher education.

A recent "fave" of mine:
"Teaching science for social justice? Let Teachers College professor Angela Calabrese Barton, the volume’s principal author, try to explain: “The marriages between capitalism and education and capitalism and science have created a foundation for science education that emphasizes corporate values at the expense of social justice and human dignity.” The alternative? “Science pedagogy framed around social justice concerns can become a medium to transform individuals, schools, communities, the environment, and science itself, in ways that promote equity and social justice. Creating a science education that is transformative implies not only how science is a political activity but also the ways in which students might see and use science and science education in ways transformative of the institutional and interpersonal power structures that play a role in their lives.” If you still can’t appreciate why it’s necessary for your child’s chemistry teacher to teach for social justice, you are probably hopelessly wedded to reason, empiricism, individual merit, and other capitalist and post-colonialist deformities."

[bakxierboxer]

all canadians sound whinny, it comes from years of complaining about the winter, (at least in Saskatchewan);)

?????? :confused:

So, you agree that he sounds an awful lot like Andrew Sullivan? :rolleyes:

[bakxierboxer]

Here i'll make up a new system for you right now, how about a "Democratic Socialism" with actual "free markets" ware competition/innovation is mandated and enforced. As opposed to what we have now ware there is no longer even the illusion of freedom in the market ie "Monopoly Capitalism"

That pretty much seems to be about what we've all (most of the "Western world") got now.....

[bakxierboxer]

Greetings..

Solution 101: The federal Government sends each individual taxpayer $200,000.00 ($+/- 125,000.00 after 'taxes') that's $250,000.00 for a married couple.. a single 'enforcable' stipulation: that whatever portion is required (all if necessary) be paid toward paying-off the mortgage.. total cost to the Fed, +/- $100 billion.. as opposed to $700 billion that still funds a corrupt and mis-managed system..

"Interesting"....
OTOH, I seem to recall hearing the number 4,000,000 as being the number of mortgages with the potential for default..... 4,000,000 * 200,000 = 800,000,000,000.
That's a higher figure than what's being tossed about for the buy-out now, and still won't directly do anything for the ailing businesses..... although their "bad paper" wouldn't be "as bad".

[Satori Science]

I had a co-worker who defected from Poland when it was still communist. The entire economy was supported through black market free enterprise because the socialist system was so ineffective. While he was at work as a factory engineer he used company materials and company time and company tools to make furniture to trade on the black market. He said this was they only way to get the things you needed to surrive. The lesson here is, even when left to themselves in an ineffective economic system people will spontaneously organize themselves into a capitalistic system. Why do they do this? Because it works, it is natural and it follows the principles of Tao.

Exactly, beautifully said!

[Satori Science]

Actually, some might choose to view it as a long over-due case/clutch/gaggle of
"chickens coming home to roost"."

I completely agree!


I'll believe that when you start spelling "where" correctly.
(otoh, at least you're "consistent" in spelling it "ware")

I am dyslexic (it runs in our family), i generally have to edit these posts repeatedly to catch all my errors. sorry. I generally scored a lower A average in college as opposed to a higher A average because of my grammar and spelling.



The problem is that the so-called "franchise" now "belongs" to the government bureaucracies and the teachers unions.... which causes "clotting" in the form of irremediable/life-tenured non-functionaries (aka "teachers" and educational "management")

yup,


Another thing that tends to mess up the works is all of the new-fangled/nonsensical/so-called educational theories being spewed/vomited forth from the teacher's colleges at our so-called institutions of higher education.

i agree, bad teachers are a major problem


A recent "fave" of mine:
"Teaching science for social justice? Let Teachers College professor Angela Calabrese Barton, the volume’s principal author, try to explain: “The marriages between capitalism and education and capitalism and science have created a foundation for science education that emphasizes corporate values at the expense of social justice and human dignity.” The alternative? “Science pedagogy framed around social justice concerns can become a medium to transform individuals, schools, communities, the environment, and science itself, in ways that promote equity and social justice. Creating a science education that is transformative implies not only how science is a political activity but also the ways in which students might see and use science and science education in ways transformative of the institutional and interpersonal power structures that play a role in their lives.” If you still can’t appreciate why it’s necessary for your child’s chemistry teacher to teach for social justice, you are probably hopelessly wedded to reason, empiricism, individual merit, and other capitalist and post-colonialist deformities."

That is one thing I did a lot of research in, sounds like excellent stuff. If you could supply a link i would really appreciate it. :D

[bakxierboxer]

I completely agree!

Cool!



I am dyslexic (it runs in our family), i generally have to edit these posts repeatedly to catch all my errors. sorry. I generally scored a lower A average in college as opposed to a higher A average because of my grammar and spelling.


Hmmmm.... well, fortunately it doesn't muck up your CLF.



yup,


???????? :confused:
WTF?
I'm in a conversation where I'm actually agreeing with a native of Canuckistan? :eek:
Oh!......... wait, it's not all that uncommon after all. :D
(unless it's a "political thread" of some sort) :rolleyes:


i agree, bad teachers are a major problem

Even in a Socialist paradise? :D



That is one thing I did a lot of research in, sounds like excellent stuff. If you could supply a link i would really appreciate it. :D

Henh!
Depending on the November election, we may all get to hear and see all too much of that kind of nonsense.

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..

Solution 101: The federal Government sends each individual taxpayer $200,000.00 ($+/- 125,000.00 after 'taxes') that's $250,000.00 for a married couple.. a single 'enforcable' stipulation: that whatever portion is required (all if necessary) be paid toward paying-off the mortgage.. total cost to the Fed, +/- $100 billion.. as opposed to $700 billion that still funds a corrupt and mis-managed system.. the stimulus to the economy would be unprecedented.. and, the pay-back in higher taxes over a longer period of time would be easily digestable... it's the ultimate "reset" button.. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!!

This WILL work!!!

Be well...

Hi Bob,

I have a co-worker who came up with basically the same idea. It is so easy and will fix the problem so well it will never happen because it takes control away from the powers that be!

Available money to spend always stimulates the economy. It is like water, running water does not stagnate whereas sitting water beings to stagnate immediately.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings..

Solution 101: The federal Government sends each individual taxpayer $200,000.00 ($+/- 125,000.00 after 'taxes') that's $250,000.00 for a married couple.. a single 'enforcable' stipulation: that whatever portion is required (all if necessary) be paid toward paying-off the mortgage.. total cost to the Fed, +/- $100 billion.. as opposed to $700 billion that still funds a corrupt and mis-managed system.. the stimulus to the economy would be unprecedented.. and, the pay-back in higher taxes over a longer period of time would be easily digestable... it's the ultimate "reset" button.. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!!

This WILL work!!!

Be well...

Well, they are spending 10 billion per month in Iraq and Afghanistan...

[WinterPalm]

Well, they are spending 10 billion per month in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Freedom isn't free!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Freedom isn't free!

Neither is poontang.

[1bad65]

Well, they are spending 10 billion per month in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Ok. So lets say Obama cuts-and-runs in Iraq. Pulls the plug on that war. That saves us $120 billion. He has proposed $800 billion in NEW spending.

How is he going to pay for that ADDITIONAL $680 billion and still cut taxes on 95% of Americans?

[WinterPalm]

Ok. So lets say Obama cuts-and-runs in Iraq. Pulls the plug on that war. That saves us $120 billion. He has proposed $800 billion in NEW spending.

How is he going to pay for that ADDITIONAL $680 billion and still cut taxes on 95% of Americans?

Just add way more taxes to the super rich 1%.

Problem solved.

End of thread.

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