Why I love MMA or My training right now

[Ray Pina]

Wake up... oatmeal or 5 eggs (two yellow)

Get to the beach: kick the gnarled palm tree five times, low roundhouse light. Really light with the left. Sometimes 70-percent front kicks. (Karate influence)

Surf.

Beach-side lunch: whire rice with abuchuela (beans mixed with pumkin, pork), porkchop, fried bananas and coco frio (called coconut cut open, drink natures filtered water)

Talk to some people for work

Home nap

Wake up: Go to boxing for two hours (3-5) ... (too new to leave an influence yet).

Surf.

Eat dinner. With no TV relax, do some reading, online, work.



This is today's schedule. Tues, fri.I do BJJ, which isn't until after sundown. So my morning surf is extended and my nap longer. (BJJ changing my life, my Physical being. My sensei told my dad when I wa slittle I'm going to make this kid fly. I got lost for a few years but I almost feel like that kid again. Some work to do on my kicks. To get them where I think they should be at this stage in my life, in this condition)

Did some drills with a guy last night and I still have my master's hands. Like they never went away. That was reassuring. I hear my master's voice all the time. Like when going to buy a Jeep yesterday, him always saying, "I want the good stuff and I want it cheep."... left without Jeep.

Living learning.... fighting in a kick boxing venue (closed headgear, boxing gloves and chin guards) Oct. 18th. This will reveal a lot about many discussions here the past week.

I truly believe if a traditional karate guy steps in front of me right now I will eat him alive... or get thrown out for the flying knee I'm throwing opening bell wether its legal or not. That's what penalties are for, right? Penalize me. I've been training it. Think its the most powerful move in unarmed fighting right now... aggressive, safe. Forcing retreat or a very athletic finding of opening, reading of balance and momentum for a catch and throw, or a dive and leg to balls. I'lll take that risk. Another thing revealed in BJJ (my coach hates it I love it) is that I'll go for it with a **** it attitude. And if the guy is better. which my coach is, I get caught in ****. But if he's better he'll catch me anyway so **** it.

Peace

[CFT]

Glad life is working out for you Ray.

[bawang]

good luck on your coming fight dood.
show no mercy! crush your enemy and take his womans!!!!!! waaaagh

[golden arhat]

ten thousand years!

[Water Dragon]

What a waste. All a Kung Fu dude has to do is walk up, smack with a lil chi, or poke you in the eye, and you're done, Buddy. All that time spent for nothing :rolleyes:

[uki]

What a waste. nothing is wasted. his intent is to better his practice and training... seems to be doing more than the rest of the population of armchair martial artists... despite the avenues, all paths lead to the same goal... perfection of being.


All a Kung Fu dude has to do is walk up, smack with a lil chi, or poke you in the eye, and you're done, Buddy.what if the kung fu dude is having a bad day? murphy's law does tend to manifest on occasions.


All that time spent for nothing.the only wasted time is time spent without intent... nothing seems to be wasted here.

[Water Dragon]

Whatever, Uki. The guy's training a SPORT for Pete's sake. How can he expect to fare against someone who's been trained to kill? It's like bringing a football to a gun fight, it doesn't even compare.

[Lucas]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not waterdragon.

[uki]

Whatever, Uki.whatever is right.

The guy's training a SPORT for Pete's sake.and people tell me that juggling is for clowns... your point? practice is practice... intent is the key.

How can he expect to fare against someone who's been trained to kill?people who surf can't be trained to kill? don't be naive... even killers can have recreational sports as training methods.


It's like bringing a football to a gun fight, it doesn't even compare.throw the football hard enough and with aim and you'll school a gunslinger anyday.:D

[Water Dragon]

You're missing the point. Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but just the virtue of good ol internal training makes the Kung Fu guy superior to the MMA guy. Look at it this way, you can contemplate your bellybutton all day, and get some benefit, but it's nothing compared to the time spent actually going out there and actually showing people your belly button. See what I'm saying?

[uki]

You're missing the point.highly doubtful... but i will let you have your opinion.


Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but just the virtue of good ol internal training makes the Kung Fu guy superior to the MMA guy.then again it depends on the guy.


Look at it this way, you can contemplate your bellybutton all day, and get some benefit, but it's nothing compared to the time spent actually going out there and actually showing people your belly button.if you show everyone your bellybutton... there will be no secret or suprise... people will simply expect a bellybutton.


See what I'm saying?apparently you are to attached to your bellybutton.

[Lucas]

internal training is great.

great power, great structure, health, etc...many benefits...

HOWEVER

if the MMA guy takes him down and beats the crap out of him because he cant defend himself, whats all HIS training worth?

It goes in all directions.

The argument is rather hollow, because it can easily just be turned back on you with your same angle.

[Water Dragon]

Man, I was checking out your posts, and thinking maybe you 'got it', I was wrong. The bellybutton's a metaphor, man, a metaphor. You gotsta contemplate the MEANING of what the bellybutton represents.

[uki]

Man, I was checking out your posts, and thinking maybe you 'got it', I was wrong. wow. it's a double whammy...

The bellybutton's a metaphor, man, a metaphor.of course it is.


You gotsta contemplate the MEANING of what the bellybutton represents.i know...

[Lucas]

so then you are going to rock the MMA world with your internal training i take it?

when can we expect you to go to a no rules event and show this?

[Water Dragon]

Then we are in agreement. Very well. Carry on.

[Lucas]

Then we are in agreement. Very well. Carry on.

lol your so full of it

[uki]

so then you are going to rock the MMA world with your internal training i take it?throwing an iron juggle ball at anyone will rock their world if it hits.


when can we expect you to go to a no rules event and show this?no rules... i am going for the throat...

[Lucas]

throwing an iron juggle ball at anyone will rock their world if it hits.
no rules... i am going for the throat...

well i was talking to WD with his comment that an internal stylist would destroy any MMA guy....which franky, I dont believe.

Sure SOME internal guys can destroy SOME MMA guys, but its not all inclusive and so cut and dry in my opinion.

I think that randy couture would give many a interal guys a run for their money.

Cung Le is my fav MMA fighter and I think he would destroy A LOT of interal stylists.

[Lucas]

and ya dude i would NOT want to be hit with one of your iron balls ;)

[uki]

well i was talking to WD with his comment that an internal stylist would destroy any MMA guy....which franky, I dont believe.i realize exactly who was replying to whom... i was simply playing games with myself...


Sure SOME internal guys can destroy SOME MMA guys, but its not all inclusive and so cut and dry in my opinion.in the end it is all relative to the circumstances. agreed.


I think that randy couture would give many a interal guys a run for their money.the whole reason of the internal-external war is simply that an internal guy is less likely to bum rush someone and prove his point... internal is defensive in nature.


Cung Le is my fav MMA fighter and I think he would destroy A LOT of interal stylists.and then again he might not.

[golden arhat]

i realize exactly who was replying to whom... i was simply playing games with myself...



ahh that takes me back



oh those fateful december mornings alone! hum dee dum

[uki]

oh those fateful december mornings alone! hum dee dummore like september evenings with lots of beer...

[golden arhat]

more like september evenings with lots of beer...

u dont beat off at christmas ? :confused:

[D-FENS]

Wake up... oatmeal or 5 eggs (two yellow)

Get to the beach: kick the gnarled palm tree five times, low roundhouse light. Really light with the left. Sometimes 70-percent front kicks. (Karate influence)

Surf.

Beach-side lunch: whire rice with abuchuela (beans mixed with pumkin, pork), porkchop, fried bananas and coco frio (called coconut cut open, drink natures filtered water)

Talk to some people for work

Home nap

Wake up: Go to boxing for two hours (3-5) ... (too new to leave an influence yet).

Surf.

Eat dinner. With no TV relax, do some reading, online, work.





Ray,
just out of curiosity, how does your Xingyi training factor into all of this? Do you still practice it?

If not, then what elements of IMA have you retained and how do they integrate with what you are doing now?

Again, just wondering... :)

[uki]

Ray,
just out of curiosity, how does your Xingyi training factor into all of this? Do you still practice it?i dunno... but holding trinity while surfing on the water would be quite the exercise.

[Lucas]

and then again he might not.

this is true.

and fact in some cases imo.

the way i look at it in regards to fighting and martial arts in general, is that anytime you align your self with any 'faction' so to speak, there are always opposing forces that are superior as well as inferior to you.

so some mma fighters excell, some do not. likewise some internalists excell, while some wont.

i simply chose cungle and randy couture as examples because from what ive seen, they seem to be individuals that excell in the art of fighting.

i feel its rather safe to say, that if this is the case, either or would be capable of defeating a good deal of internal stylists, while on the flip side, a good deal of internal stylits would be capable of beating them.

of course this is just my opinion. it seems like an adequate balance to me.

[uki]

of course this is just my opinion. it seems like an adequate balance to me.everyones scale is set to different weights and measures.

[Lucas]

everyones scale is set to different weights and measures.

lol this is very true.

[Ray Pina]

just out of curiosity, how does your Xingyi training factor into all of this? Do you still practice it?

I carry that with me everyday... how I step over puddles, prevent myself from slipping. I look back, and all the walking my master had me do... back and forth, forward and backwards, it left it's mark. I've been using the structure/power from Hsing-I since day one in BJJ. It helped me get away with bad technique against weaker/less skilled players.

With that said, I was going to post today how my boxing training took a big leap today. Not just 1, 2.... now it's 1,2,3,4... with hooks and uppercuts added to the straights. Also, walking back and forth, forward and backward. Almost exactly like Hsing-I chicken foot but with more weight on the front foot. Power in the strikes are the same... they originate from the foot pushing off the ground.

That speaks well for the Hsing-I I learned. But at the same time, it's no big deal, no big secret. A dozen pre-pubescent boys are utilizing that technology to throw smooth, relaxed, heavy striking against bags, focus mitts and each other. I'm picking it up quick because I understand the importance of mechanics over trying to hit hard or look like I'm hitting hard. But it's easy technique. Easy movement. I like it. A new game to play.

[irontiger1981]

more like september evenings with lots of beer...
dude i so want a beer right now:cool:

[irontiger1981]

its even september

[uki]

big laughing gyms laugh in september...

[SimonM]

Look at it this way, you can contemplate your bellybutton all day, and get some benefit, but it's nothing compared to the time spent actually going out there and actually showing people your belly button. See what I'm saying?

ROTFL!!! That is the funniest thing I've read all day.

(Of course it is 9:13 am)

[SimonM]

Step 1: Take any random line of text typed by Uki.
Step 2: Add "Confucius say" to the beginning.
Step 3: Add "Your lucky numbers are #,#,#,#,#" at the end.
Voila! Instant fortune cookie.

[Ray Pina]

i feel its rather safe to say, that if this is the case, either or would be capable of defeating a good deal of internal stylists, while on the flip side, a good deal of internal stylits would be capable of beating them.

With all do respect, and with total humility, is there ANY other internal stylist out there fighting? I know my style of fighting has internal elements in it. And frankly, I'd have to argue BJJ is internal, for adhering to the same principles that I would use to define "internal" in Hsing-I and Taiji. I can't really speak of Ba Gua.

Anyway, my point? Where are these internal stylists? I either want to learn from them or beat them. Because of they want to fight they expect to win, right? And if they expect to win that means they must think they're better than me. **** that! I've studied too long and am training to hard. I'll say it right now, I'm 174.9... I don't think there's an internal man below 205 lbs that would take me. And I'd be willing to stretch it further than that if motivated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

With all do respect, and with total humility, is there ANY other internal stylist out there fighting? I know my style of fighting has internal elements in it. And frankly, I'd have to argue BJJ is internal, for adhering to the same principles that I would use to define "internal" in Hsing-I and Taiji. I can't really speak of Ba Gua.

Anyway, my point? Where are these internal stylists? I either want to learn from them or beat them. Because of they want to fight they expect to win, right? And if they expect to win that means they must think they're better than me. **** that! I've studied too long and am training to hard. I'll say it right now, I'm 174.9... I don't think there's an internal man below 205 lbs that would take me. And I'd be willing to stretch it further than that if motivated.

You may need to get out more...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Not sure if you've seen this, Ray...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw&feature=related

I don't think he's actually competing, but he's definitely training competitors, at least on a seminar basis...

CSP

[SimonM]

For a long time I have been apprehensive of the "internal / external" dichotomy. AFAIK the "internal arts" (Bagua, Xingyi and Taiji) were called such because of a reference to them in a single military manual from the Qing dynasty. What I heard was that, basically, the author of the manual suggested these three martial arts to be a good training regimen. Now considering that there is some simmilarity between Bagua and Taiji people seem to have interpreted this to mean that these three styles were somehow pseudo-mystically related - and different from other martial arts. Xingyi is, IMHO the deal breaker for me on this explaination. I don't speak from ignorance here, I studied Xingyi in Shanxi (the home of one of the two main branches of Xingyi).

And you know what?

For all the fancy talk I see on this board about how Xingyi may look linear but uses circular internal power development... I don't see the difference between that and the advice pretty much any "external" martial art to develop striking power by turning the torso.

As a result, my hypothesis was that the three "internal" arts were advised as a form of cross-training with Xingyi providing striking, Bagua providing grappling and taiji for general physical fitness.

If we dissolve "internal" / "external" and look at each practitioner based on his own merits the question becomes much simpler... of course... it also gives us less on-topic stuff to argue about here on the forum. ;)

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw&feature=related



Jose Figueroa, disciple of Chen stylist Guangyi Ren brought us footage of real Chen Taiji back in the early 90's and I'm glad to see stuff is making its way onto youtube and the internet

It shows that TCMA, even "internal" is not about chi blasts and mysticism crap

It also shows that real Taiji is a lot like Greco-Roman

[bawang]

true true. u know the saying goes, the external starts hard and end soft(er), internal styles start soft and end hard. i think those yang taiji people forgot that lol.

[D-FENS]

true true. u know the saying goes, the external starts hard and end soft(er), internal styles start soft and end hard.

Just like my ham candle.

[Ray Pina]

Not sure if you've seen this, Ray...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw&feature=related

I don't think he's actually competing, but he's definitely training competitors, at least on a seminar basis...

CSP

I've seen it now. And what I assume you're passing off as "high-level internal" seems a lot like pummeling and clinch drills that I do three times a week. Only the guys are fighting back with full force and intention.

This goes to my point. This gentlemen, I don't know his skill. Actually seems like he has great mechanics. Someone mentioned Black Taoist, his technique seems sound.

But my question was: Where are these internal FIGHTERS!

I felt very fortunate to train with who I considered the best internalist available to me, and having lived in NYC at the time I would say my options were deeper than most. Principles are great. The training and mind set healthy. But it's the bottom line that matters. You're either less, equal or ahead of your contemporaries. There's only one way real fighters determine that: who's winning. Non fighters will debate, dig into historical records, quote magazine and books (often published by people profiting from perpetuating a thought) ... a lot of ifs and buts.

I want to train with people equal to or better than the standard. Not good marketers. Not good demonstrators, crafty situation manipulators. My BJJ coach is heading to NYC next week for the worlds. My head boxing coach fought 9 pro fights. The assistant, who's teaching me now, has a couple pro fights.

One word from these men hold more weight to me than a million demonstration videos.

[Ray Pina]

You may need to get out more...

To where?

I'm not saying these things to be a di(k. I'm saying them to a) potentially find something good and b) wake people's minds up. It's easy to say there's a given number of internal stylists (taiji, Hsing-I, Ba Gua) that can demolish a high-level MMA fighter.

I'm asking for one. Don't even need to post video. Just type their name and where they train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To where?

I'm not saying these things to be a di(k. I'm saying them to a) potentially find something good and b) wake people's minds up. It's easy to say there's a given number of internal stylists (taiji, Hsing-I, Ba Gua) that can demolish a high-level MMA fighter.

I'm asking for one. Don't even need to post video. Just type their name and where they train.

Well, you can look up the jiulong Bagua guys of Master Painter or you can go to NYC and look up YY Chen and his son Max, they are Tai Chi practioner and Max competes ( or competed) in Full contact matches, there is also Tim Cartmell ( SP?)

[Ray Pina]

I'll give you Max and even his daughter Tiffany. Not only are they both very cool people -- Max offered to corner my first San Da fight because I went alone, but he moves beautifully. I actually forgot about him. Thank you. I'm looking them up next time I'm in NYC.

From what I have seen of Mr. Painter, walking the Ba Gua circle with heavy weighted balls, I would have to say he has either been mislead or is purposely misleading people for profit. I would not call him internal at all. Not internal, yet not external and definitely not out fighting.... I don't know where that leaves him. You can ascribe a name to that state of being for a martial artists.

Tim Carmell. Much respect for him. However, I would put him in a similar boat as my own when it comes to being a martial artists. Went to the internal well and improved mechanics, mind... developed the sense of what type of raw materials are needed.

However, it is not until he started training BJJ, which is not the style in itself but the way it trains and the fighters it attracts, that I would call him a fighter.

With that said, Max, myself, and Mr. Cartmell can not hang with professional mixed martial artists. As far as I know, none of us has even won an amateur mixed martial arts fight (I will fix this in Dec.)

Now, with one name, George St. Pierre... one man. In that man alone you have a boxer, Thai Boxer, wrestler and BJJ.... at a high-level in all of those. He would cream all of us right now.

My point is that you have to decide if you want to be the best martial artist you can be, or cling to romantic ideas about an ancient China that only existed in Shaw Brother movies. Which I'm a fan of. But I'm a bigger fan of reality.

Big ups again to Max, his sister Tiffany and Tim Cartmell for doing it. God bless them. It's shame they don't get more props.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll give you Max and even his daughter Tiffany. Not only are they both very cool people -- Max offered to corner my first San Da fight because I went alone, but he moves beautifully. I actually forgot about him. Thank you. I'm looking them up next time I'm in NYC.

Good on you mate.


From what I have seen of Mr. Painter, walking the Ba Gua circle with heavy weighted balls, I would have to say he has either been mislead or is purposely misleading people for profit. I would not call him internal at all. Not internal, yet not external and definitely not out fighting.... I don't know where that leaves him. You can ascribe a name to that state of being for a martial artists.

Your view of internal is...well...not my view or the view of many others.


Tim Carmell. Much respect for him. However, I would put him in a similar boat as my own when it comes to being a martial artists. Went to the internal well and improved mechanics, mind... developed the sense of what type of raw materials are needed.

However, it is not until he started training BJJ, which is not the style in itself but the way it trains and the fighters it attracts, that I would call him a fighter.

He would agree you differently perhaps.


With that said, Max, myself, and Mr. Cartmell can not hang with professional mixed martial artists. As far as I know, none of us has even won an amateur mixed martial arts fight (I will fix this in Dec.)

Assumption or fact ?


Now, with one name, George St. Pierre... one man. In that man alone you have a boxer, Thai Boxer, wrestler and BJJ.... at a high-level in all of those. He would cream all of us right now.

Having sparred with GSP and fought one of his training partners ( I lost by decision) I have the highest respect for GSP, but you should see his coach.


My point is that you have to decide if you want to be the best martial artist you can be, or cling to romantic ideas about an ancient China that only existed in Shaw Brother movies. Which I'm a fan of. But I'm a bigger fan of reality.

Not everyone has your view of shaw brothers MA, some of us have ZERO romantic ideas about MA or about what INTERNAL really is.


And the highest props to EVERYONE that gets out there and fights ful contact, in ANY venue.

[lkfmdc]

Well, you can look up the jiulong Bagua guys of Master Painter or you can go to NYC and look up YY Chen and his son Max, they are Tai Chi practioner and Max competes ( or competed) in Full contact matches, there is also Tim Cartmell ( SP?)

I hate to do this, really, but LMFAO at everyone pulling up Max as an example of someone who uses Tai Chi to fight....

Not only has Max trained with Cung, Boston San Shou and NY San da, he's done boxing with a golden gloves trainer and currently does Muay Thai with Phil Nurse

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hate to do this, really, but LMFAO at everyone pulling up Max as an example of someone who uses Tai Chi to fight....

Not only has Max trained with Cung, Boston San Shou and NY San da, he's done boxing with a golden gloves trainer and currently does Muay Thai with Phil Nurse

Ah, but no one said he "uses" Tai chi to fight...:D
His old man has some serious skills too by the way ;)
Just don't expect him to use a "single whip" on you...

[lkfmdc]

Ah, but no one said he "uses" Tai chi to fight...:D
His old man has some serious skills too by the way ;)
Just don't expect him to use a "single whip" on you...

His old man studied western boxing
His old man also told me that if it had been available he would have cross trained as much as possible (and that in Taiwan they only got to fight once a year which sucked)

The point remains, you can't find a pure TCMA person who is competitive in any sort of fighting today. Tim is a BJJ black belt. Max has trained with the top three san da teams, boxed and done Muay Thai. etc

[sanjuro_ronin]

His old man studied western boxing
His old man also told me that if it had been available he would have cross trained as much as possible (and that in Taiwan they only got to fight once a year which sucked)

The point remains, you can't find a pure TCMA person who is competitive in any sort of fighting today. Tim is a BJJ black belt. Max has trained with the top three san da teams, boxed and done Muay Thai. etc

Yes, that is true, and that is the way it should be, that is the "old way".
Nevertheless, you will find many "internal" qualities in their MA, much more so than other doing those same MA.
Tim has always mentioned how much his internal training allowed him to progress in BJJ and, contrary to popular belief, western boxing goes very well with many internal principles.

If you believe that internal = something out of a shaw brothers movie, well...

[SimonM]

What if you believe "internal" is based on a misinterpretation of a singual textual source and think that there is no difference between silk reeling and other methods of core-power generation espoused in "external" styles?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

...Then you get burned at the stake by those who believe they can light fires with Qi balls. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What if you believe "internal" is based on a misinterpretation of a singual textual source and think that there is no difference between silk reeling and other methods of core-power generation espoused in "external" styles?

Well, to say there is NO difference may no be correct, to say that the differences make silk reeling "internal" and other methods 'external" is not correct either unless you believe in categorizing those differences in that way.
To each their own.
The core principles of most, if not every, "internal" system can typically be found in one way or another in external systems and vice-versa.
We can go on and on forever trying to define what is internal and external to each other and it won't mean squat to anyone else.

I just don't agree that you can categorise what other people do based on your limited definition of something and why would you?

Ray mentioned that he can own any Traditional Karate guy, that is a bold statement considering most of us know at least one that can kick some serious ass.

Better to focus on what we can do and keep it at that.

[SimonM]

...Then you get burned at the stake by those who believe they can light fires with Qi balls.

Oh noes!

Not Qi balls!

(although i hear they go good with sweet and sour sauce)

[Lucas]

There are a lot of people that focus their efforts soley in a 'internal' setting, and those that focus their efforts in a 'external' setting.

You have people that will study 'interal' styles, along with studying 'external' styles.

Now, I am of the mind that believes that the human body will exhibit 'external' as well as 'internal' qualities, regardless of what fount you drink from, at a certain point in your training. you may not have certain tell tale signs of specific styles, but your body can not help but have interal movement, nor can it help brute external exhertion. thats just how the human body works.

You will also have certain styles that within will utilize and practice 'internal' and 'external' qualities.

IMO its all a whole package. Some people will try to remain just one or the other, which I feel is silly...but there it is.

When I am to say an internal stylist could do well against an MMA fighter, I would be speaking from my own point of view, regarding a stylist that may practice at in one degree or another within an internal framwork, but still gets it so to speak in regards of the whole picture of body motion and the relation ship that has to fighting.

meaning one who has utilized specific internal styles to forward their training. rather than simply letting nature take its course and developing many of these qualities simply by mastering your own body.

Like sanjuro said tho, this is tricky subject since people have so may varying degrees of what they view as internal.

To me, there is only the human body and all its capablities of motion and movement. some people just get caught up in certain ways and dont want to look for others.

as martial artists though, i would like to think we are all, or at least most of us, are also students of motion. thats always been one of the most intriguing parts of martial arts to me, finding new ways or ways i had not thought of to use my body.

using ray as an example;

since he knowingly utilizes mechanics learned through a internal style to develop internal workings, though he is not closing himself of to said style, i would still view him as an internal as well as external fighter. not soley internal no, he encompasses the full picture, but someone who does in fact use internal studies he has made to fight, in addition to external styles.

[SanHeChuan]

I got submitted for the first time on the ground in kung fu class last night, twice. My sifu has been training with hackleman at the pit and teaching us MMA and the like, for maybe 6 months now. I was the only one who had previous BJJ experience, and until now no one had gotten me. Sure I wasn't protecting myself as best I could, assuming I slip out of what ever I got into, but I was proven wrong. I got caught in an ankle lock, the same lock people have been trying to get on me for months and failing, so I wasn't concerned, but after several long minutes I hadn't slipped out and my toes all popped at once so I figured better safe than sorry. My ankle is pretty sore today so I made the right call. Then he got me in a rear naked coke from the back, which was my bad for not giving enough respect.

[Ray Pina]

I have trained Issin-Ryu karate, wing Chun, Hung Gar, S Mantis, Hsing-I, Taiji and now BJJ and boxing.

Each has their own way of study.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE, karate and Hung Gar are trained very similarly except we did A LOT more sparring in karate. Wing Chun and S Mantis focused on sticking and sensitivity drills.

I never trained anything like Hsing-I and Taiji (my E-Chuan experience) before or since. It is very cerebral. You are introduced to concepts of power generation and then left to discover and incorporate them into your natural way of doing things.

I'd probably be better off training with my old master, master David Bong Chan, now that I'm doing BJJ and boxing. Just go to him for more technology. That's what I wanted to do this summer but got the cold shoulder. It's his technology, so he can do with it what he wants.

There is something unique about Hsing-I and Taiji training. That's why they have their own name. And I believe they can be very valuable if supplemented with a more hands on style, like boxing, San Da, Thai, etc. otherwise, you get good push hand guys with no balls. They will lose to decent push hand guys who aren't scared to get sweaty and bloody.


My Master's Ba Gua comes from Master Wang Tzong Fe, who learned from Master Gon Bo Tien. That makes him 4th generation. Honestly, I have seen a lot and I know it may not seem so, have kept my mouth shut on sooooo much nonsense I have seen, especially in the world of internal.

The lineage I come from, including my master, has always been one of fighters. My master is an a$$ kicker.

I see family trees with all types of cats listed very high. None of these guys are fighters. And frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves for passing themselves off as ... well, let people call themselves and fancy themselves what they like.

Me, looking back through my martial family tree, I'm proud to be going into rings and cages and getting my a$$ kicked. I'm trying. And I'm improving. One day maybe I'll be able to make some money from the knowledge and skill, but I have to be what I say I am. That's the number one lesson, right? And if you're not what you want to be go do what it takes to get there.

****, it kills me to see people credited as the high-level standard of internal today, selling all types of $hit in the magazines.... these men are not internal warriors. Who are their fallen foes? A bunch of non-resisting Joe Shmoes? And yet people eat that $hit up.

If we're looking for facts, Coach Ross runs one of the premier Kung Fu schools in, in the world I guess. His guys are consistently winning. Internal, external, who cares. He and his guys have it down.

[Lucas]

by your own account, your internal master, as well as his lineage's forefathers were fighters, your master is an ass kicker.

so there a few mentioned by yourself that can/could use their internal arts to fight, would it not be fair to assume that in the entire world, the whole planet, there are more than just your one master following this same path. There are billions of us after all.

[Water Dragon]

The point remains, you can't find a pure TCMA person who is competitive in any sort of fighting today. Tim is a BJJ black belt. Max has trained with the top three san da teams, boxed and done Muay Thai. etc
.

You do have pure Tai Chi guys in push hands comps. It would be just as dumb to assume you will find a pure Tai Chi guy in boxing as it would to assume you'll find a pure Judoka in Boxing. Now, finding a pure Boxer in Boxing is a different story.

I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that maybe guys who are really attracted to boxing box, guys who are really attracted to Judo do Judo, and guys who are really attracted to Tai Chi do tui shou. I know, call me crazy!

[TenTigers]

I
There is something unique about Hsing-I and Taiji training. That's why they have their own name. And I believe they can be very valuable if taught by a good teacher who had more hands on training method, like boxing, San Da, Thai, etc. otherwise, you get good push hand guys with no balls. They will lose to decent push hand guys who aren't scared to get sweaty and bloody.

there. fixed it for ya!

[Ray Pina]

as martial artists though, i would like to think we are all, or at least most of us, are also students of motion. thats always been one of the most intriguing parts of martial arts to me, finding new ways or ways i had not thought of to use my body.


Good post........

[Ray Pina]

I got submitted for the first time on the ground in kung fu class last night, twice. My sifu has been training with hackleman at the pit and teaching us MMA and the like, for maybe 6 months now. I was the only one who had previous BJJ experience, and until now no one had gotten me. Sure I wasn't protecting myself as best I could, assuming I slip out of what ever I got into, but I was proven wrong. I got caught in an ankle lock, the same lock people have been trying to get on me for months and failing, so I wasn't concerned, but after several long minutes I hadn't slipped out and my toes all popped at once so I figured better safe than sorry. My ankle is pretty sore today so I made the right call. Then he got me in a rear naked coke from the back, which was my bad for not giving enough respect.


This is very reassuring. Good on your master, you and your training brothers. What's the primary Kung Fu taught there?

And awesome that you get to play with less experienced guys and practice, and for being cool and knowing to take it easy and let yourself be put in those positions.

Good. Good. Good.

[cjurakpt]

What if you believe "internal" is based on a misinterpretation of a singual textual source and think that there is no difference between silk reeling and other methods of core-power generation espoused in "external" styles?
then the ghost of Sun Lu Tang will visit you to irritate your cankles in the wee hours...


my old master, master David Bong Chan,
sorry Ray, but only because it's you does that get brought to everyone's attention...

[Ray Pina]

by your own account, your internal master, as well as his lineage's forefathers were fighters, your master is an ass kicker.

so there a few mentioned by yourself that can/could use their internal arts to fight, would it not be fair to assume that in the entire world, the whole planet, there are more than just your one master following this same path. There are billions of us after all.


I love my master and he's very good. He was kicking a$$, really fighting, in the 70s and 80s I guess. He accepts visitors now -- hell, he must be around 67 now -- but it's more setting situations to demonstrate his power and technique. A Thai boxer showed up a year or two before I moved, his hands still taped from a fight and a medal around his neck. He fired live strikes, maybe 80-87% percent at that 65 year old man and was impressed enough to write a good post about it on Bullshido. He gained my respect for that. Because a lot of people hear and don't want to believe. Others see for themselves and shrug it off as being fast or powerful.... the guy's 65. The first five months doing BJJ down here, all the guys said I was using too much power. But it wasn't forceful power. It was just good structure, knowing what positions are strong and how to use my back, shoulder, elbow, even wrist and fingers all as one to recoil and get my arm back.

Anyway, with all that said, that was then. I know for a fact fighters are better today. I didn't even want to jump in on that ridiculous thread. I saw karate first hand in the 80s. It was tougher than Karate today. If you were a kid showing up with shin and forearm pads then you looked queer. Today gear is mandatory and the action is light, even at the adult black belt level.

So what am I saying?

I'm saying at the adult black belt level today you should be fighting in a cage or ring with no headgear, light gloves.... punching and kicking and kneeing and elbowing to the head, to the teeth! is not only expected but incouraged.

That's the difference! And it's not 1 or 2 or a few hundred people. There's probably thousands training that way.

That is different than going to beat some skinny a$$ wing chun dude in Chinatown. I was able to do that as a football playing 18- 19- year old with 12 to 14 years of karate training under me.
....

I know there is supposed to be good Taiji up in Canada. I know this one dude has good lineage. I know for a fact BK Frantzis is now a retired warrior, as is my master. But where are their students? Where are the next generation?

I love and respect the generation before, but they didn't do it. They didn't put these skills on the map. And many argue, "Oh, we don't want them on the map." Yea. OK. Better to set up a multi-million dollar McKwoon on Long Island and baby sit a bunch of soft bellies than go out there and not only keep your warrior tradition alive, but represent it to its fullest on the field of battle. Or tell yourself going out to fight is low level while your genius slips through your too educated students hands and pitters out on a lonely cement floor.

Fu(k! I want to say it's almost sad.... it is sad. What has become of the martial artist? Men, grown men, saying their lives aren't in order enough to go train.

[Ray Pina]

tQuote:
Originally Posted by Ray Pina
I
There is something unique about Hsing-I and Taiji training. That's why they have their own name. And I believe they can be very valuable if taught by a good teacher who had more hands on training method, like boxing, San Da, Thai, etc. otherwise, you get good push hand guys with no balls. They will lose to decent push hand guys who aren't scared to get sweaty and bloody.


there. fixed it for ya!

Good corrections, but I don't like when you do that. I like words attributed to me to be from me. In this case you're right, but some people just see the quote...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I love and respect the generation before, but they didn't do it. They didn't put these skills on the map. And many argue, "Oh, we don't want them on the map." Yea. OK. Better to set up a multi-million dollar McKwoon on Long Island and baby sit a bunch of soft bellies than go out there and not only keep your warrior tradition alive, but represent it to its fullest on the field of battle. Or tell yourself going out to fight is low level while your genius slips through your too educated students hands and pitters out on a lonely cement floor.


Aww, why you gotta bring Long Island into this, Ray??

[Lucas]

i totally understand what you are saying.

i think there are still a few out there, but they are so far and few between that you luck of finding a traditional teacher that is producing even 1 fighter is pretty low.

it can be especially frustrating when you are looking for a place like that, but you just cant find it....

the last school i went to had a really awesome teacher, very good environment...but guess what....no fighters. I learned a lot, and value the knowledge i happened to glean, but now im looking at going to a decent boxing gym, for a good outlet.

[Ray Pina]

Aww, why you gotta bring Long Island into this, Ray??

You know, I was going to say that you and your Kung Fu brothers, under Master Chan Tai San, have all been very successful. To me, that is another sign of good martial arts, just as much if not more so than piercing fruit. Getting the most out of a situation. Capitalizing. Spending little and getting big returns.

As for Long Island, I love Long Beach, but, particularly after living down here for a while, they do grow soft up there. Softer than your average American. And that's pretty soft these days. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

As for Long Island, I love Long Beach, but, particularly after living down here for a while, they do grow soft up there. Softer than your average American. And that's pretty soft these days. :)

werd :)

Life is too good out here.

[Ray Pina]

i think there are still a few out there, but they are so far and few between that you luck of finding a traditional teacher that is producing even 1 fighter is pretty low.

it can be especially frustrating when you are looking for a place like that, but you just cant find it....


This is my frustration with martial arts and why I emphasize martial arts is not for everyone. You go to a boxing gym or a BJJ school, and the people are full on into what they are doing. That's why people ask and visit a boxing gym and are kind of nervous not knowing if they're going to get thrown into a ring on day one (which you won't) but walk into Kung Fu schools, chest semi-inflated. Warming up TKD-style flashy kicks on the corner.

One place you look around and you see fighters. The other place is something else.

Every martial academy should produce warriors, whether they want to go to war or not. For get this, "Oh, there's different reasons for....." Bull$hit!

You get healthy training hard. You get piece of mind learning about your body and mind, setting goals and achieving them, testing yourself. The training brings these things out.

But if you don't really want to learn to be a bad mo fo, then why go to a "martial art"school? Join the local gym. Go swim, bike ride, jog. Do yoga. Go to church. Read spiritual texts and meditate on them.

And yes, every one is free to do what they want (barring consequences). But not only are there too many incapable martial artists today, these same people loudly voice a million and one excuses to cover there fear... because that's what holds all of us back.

[SanHeChuan]

This is very reassuring. Good on your master, you and your training brothers. What's the primary Kung Fu taught there?

And awesome that you get to play with less experienced guys and practice, and for being cool and knowing to take it easy and let yourself be put in those positions.

Good. Good. Good.

seven star mantis

[TenTigers]

Good corrections, but I don't like when you do that. I like words attributed to me to be from me. In this case you're right, but some people just see the quote...
yeah, I get you, Ray. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just making a point.

[David Jamieson]

I've never met an so called internal martial artist who fought regularly or could actually fight.

For that matter I can't think of any taichi, bagua or hsing I player taht regularly fights, has a fight record, has been in a fight has any recorded fight with anyone equal to or in a venue prepared for and for the purpose of fighting.

so, I can surmise that so called internal martial arts are not martial at all and are for health and general exercise which has value along the lines of yoga and qigong.

ima should never be touted as a fighting art, it's not and so far no proponent of it has stepped up and succeeded with it. Period.

That is all. :)

[Mas Judt]

Wai Lun Choi.

He was an internal stylist who fought his whole career and accepted all challenges before he retired. But he was also a fighter first - he didn't live in a box seperating himself from other martial cultures.

A number of his students did/do the same. Two that I know of from over the years were actually VERY good fighters.

There is one example.

But - he was also very different from a lot of Qi-hippies. He was practical and fighting focused. And really, really skilled. He could do stuff in free-fighting that was just amazing. Really.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I don't plan on every forgetting what I learned from Master Bond Chan. I carry it with me everyday.

When I stared, I wanted to be the one to bring internal out. But in reality, it's just not enough. The technique is good but the training was no where near extensive enough. And the fact is, you need BJJ today if you even want to open your mouth a little bit.

I was hoping Novell Bell (Black Taoist) would do something. He certainly has made enough noise. But it looks like even he, with what, over a decade of supposedly really good Ba Gua, is now working BJJ.

So for me, internal is just one set of tools. If you're going to build a beautiful structure you need a solid foundation and many, many tools. And good raw material.

[lkfmdc]

Wai Lun Choi.

He was an internal stylist who



... also did Lama (external) and western boxing ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

One should also ask how many people seek out internal arts for the purpose of fighting?
I don't know of any to be truthful.

[Ray Pina]

I sought out Master David Bond Chan, and it wasn't too easy to find him back then, strictly because of his reputation as a fighter.

Was thinking a bit more about this today. I got a new paintball gun about two years ago.... I couldn't wait to use it.

Now, if one is training properly they should be amassing new weapons at least quarterly, if not monthly/weekly. I can't wait to fight to try out some new toys.

Just like paintball, you might get hit and it doesn't tickle, but hitting someone else feels 10x better than the hurt of being hit hurts.

So if everyone is training, and if everyone is training the real thing, why aren't there any, never mind so many, kung fu cats out there eager to try their latest weapons?

The only answer I can come up with is that they don't really have comparable weapons (water gun to paintball fight) or balls. I think they're related. The better weapons you have the more balls you have.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I sought out Master David Bond Chan, and it wasn't too easy to find him back then, strictly because of his reputation as a fighter.

Was thinking a bit more about this today. I got a new paintball gun about two years ago.... I couldn't wait to use it.

Now, if one is training properly they should be amassing new weapons at least quarterly, if not monthly/weekly. I can't wait to fight to try out some new toys.

Just like paintball, you might get hit and it doesn't tickle, but hitting someone else feels 10x better than the hurt of being hit hurts.

So if everyone is training, and if everyone is training the real thing, why aren't there any, never mind so many, kung fu cats out there eager to try their latest weapons?

The only answer I can come up with is that they don't really have comparable weapons (water gun to paintball fight) or balls. I think they're related. The better weapons you have the more balls you have.

I think that the percentage of people that do MA for fighting is very low Ray, that includes kung fu, karate, TKD and such.
Now, sport combat arts are different, that is the point of doing them for the majority ( not the minority), to fight.
Systems like MT, BJJ, JUdo, wrestling, Boxing, Kyokushin, they train to fight because fighting is part of their training.
Very few people go there for fun or spiritual purposes ( the exception being Judo and in some cases kyokushin).
This is changing though and there are many gyms that cater to the non-fighter.

[Ray Pina]

This is the problem I have with MOST martial artists today... it's not a toy.

Men in the past trained their bodied and minds in a certain way knowing that they were going into battle... these men are called warriors. The ones that devoted their entire being to it, made the training their way and teacher, were martial artists.

To call a grown man dressed like a Buddhist monk swinging a tin foil sword in a NY high school gymnasium to win a plastic medal the same thing..... it's not even just martial artists. Look around. Where did all the men go?

It's such a relief to run into a man these days.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the problem I have with MOST martial artists today... it's not a toy.

Men in the past trained their bodied and minds in a certain way knowing that they were going into battle... these men are called warriors. The ones that devoted their entire being to it, made the training their way and teacher, were martial artists.

To call a grown man dressed like a Buddhist monk swinging a tin foil sword in a NY high school gymnasium to win a plastic medal the same thing..... it's not even just martial artists. Look around. Where did all the men go?

It's such a relief to run into a man these days.

Don't be to hard on them Ray, I mean after all, people are what they chose to be.
Besides, true warriors in the MA are obsolete, a thing of the past, less than 1% nowadays.
Though it seems that even in the past, outside being soldiers or people that devoted their lives to MA, it was probabaly the same thing, the vast majority had "flowery hands and graceful kicks".
Nowadays, again outside the military and people that devote their lives to MA training, there aren't any people that can be called warriors and don't think that being a fighter = being a warrior, it doesn't.
Calling a pro fighter a warrior cheapens BOTH the term fighter and warrior.
But I feel your pain.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Just like paintball, you might get hit and it doesn't tickle, but hitting someone else feels 10x better than the hurt of being hit hurts.



...I may be misunderstanding something here, but, the way you come across makes it seem like you fight because you like to hurt people. Would you like to state your position more clearly on this?


Have you read the Dao De Jing? This is actually my favourite Chapter:


Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 31 (translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English)

Good weapons are instruments of fear; all creatures hate them.
Therefore followers of the Tao never used them.
The wise man prefers the left.
The man of war prefers the right.

Weapons are instruments of fear; they are not a wise man's tools.
He uses them only when he has no choice.
Peace and quiet are dear to his heart.
And victory no cause for rejoicing.
If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing;
If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.

On happy occasions precedence is given to the left,
On sad occasions to the right.
In the army the general stands on the left,
The commander-in-chief on the right.
This means that war is conducted like a funeral.
When many people are being killed,
They should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow.
That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral.


MMA, San Shou, Judo... all wonderful skill challenges. I do not, however, consider them arenas for victory. It's why I will probably never compete at the professional level, and why, probably, you will rarely, if ever, see an "internal" stylist compete.

Think of RedBelt (the message, not the action.) The guy never competed. Did that mean he wasn't a good fighter? In the end, no. Yet he only fought because he felt he had to.

Say what you want, but I didn't join the Martial Arts to seek to dominate or hurt others. That's counter-intuitive in my books. That said, I'm always happy to have the opportunity to test my skill against any fellow MAer, because win or lose, I know that I will learn something and have a good time. Be it empty hand, short stick, double stick, staff, paintball gun, chess or GO... The fun is in testing my own limits, not the limits of others.

If I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize. By stating my position, perhaps I've given a bit of insight into why certain fighters DON'T fight.

Take Care,
Christian

[Crushing Step]

I think that the percentage of people that do MA for fighting is very low Ray, that includes kung fu, karate, TKD and such.

I am going to counter point this just for a minute, but this isn't really against you since I hear this all the time.

I don't have a problem with martial arts as a hobby. I don't have a problem enjoying the history. What I have a problem with is martial arts schools using the term "self defense" in their advertising, and giving their students a false sense of security.

I remember working with a lady in her 40's who was let down that she couldn't do this high kick the younger people were doing. I showed her to effective the kick was done if aimed at knee level. She thanked me very much, and her confidence was uplifted. I also showed her something useful for self defense. I was later reprimanded for teaching "street fighting".

So the deal is in a lot of schools you have the hobbyists, the very serious athletic types who compete in forms or point fighting, and then a very small handful of fighters. The hobbyists, however, are wrapped up in the hobby so much, and look at MMA or other competitions with contempt for their apparent brutality, that they feel so refined and better for what they do, which they still think is useful self defense.

So what's the point? If you intend not to compete in MMA, that's fine. If you want to truly be able to defend yourself, you still need to be strong. You need to practice your techniques on a non-compliant, resisting partner. If this non-compliance ruins the apparent beauty and grace of your martial art, I just hope you are not advertising that you teach self defense.

Lastly one more thing. I don't think the majority of MMA people want to destroy traditional martial arts. Though I'm sure that sentiment exists. My opinion is we all need to use MMA as a wake up call to what we are doing, and what we are teaching. Are you teaching students to punch? If so, are they punching a live person that is not only moving, but trying to punch them back?

I think this makes sense, this idea called "aliveness". Your thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am going to counter point this just for a minute, but this isn't really against you since I hear this all the time.

I don't have a problem with martial arts as a hobby. I don't have a problem enjoying the history. What I have a problem with is martial arts schools using the term "self defense" in their advertising, and giving their students a false sense of security.

I remember working with a lady in her 40's who was let down that she couldn't do this high kick the younger people were doing. I showed her to effective the kick was done if aimed at knee level. She thanked me very much, and her confidence was uplifted. I also showed her something useful for self defense. I was later reprimanded for teaching "street fighting".

So the deal is in a lot of schools you have the hobbyists, the very serious athletic types who compete in forms or point fighting, and then a very small handful of fighters. The hobbyists, however, are wrapped up in the hobby so much, and look at MMA or other competitions with contempt for their apparent brutality, that they feel so refined and better for what they do, which they still think is useful self defense.

So what's the point? If you intend not to compete in MMA, that's fine. If you want to truly be able to defend yourself, you still need to be strong. You need to practice your techniques on a non-compliant, resisting partner. If this non-compliance ruins the apparent beauty and grace of your martial art, I just hope you are not advertising that you teach self defense.

Lastly one more thing. I don't think the majority of MMA people want to destroy traditional martial arts. Though I'm sure that sentiment exists. My opinion is we all need to use MMA as a wake up call to what we are doing, and what we are teaching. Are you teaching students to punch? If so, are they punching a live person that is not only moving, but trying to punch them back?

I think this makes sense, this idea called "aliveness". Your thoughts?

Not sure how that counters my point that the majority of people doing MA don't do it for fighting purposes...

MMA is TMA or I should say, is what TMA WERE before they got Turked by lousy instructors and comercializim.

ALL MA in MA are TMA in one for or another.

[SimonM]

In that people have been boxing and wrestling in some way shape or form since prehistory you are correct. People get too attached to a "style" because it makes them feel like a special snowflake.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In that people have been boxing and wrestling in some way shape or form since prehistory you are correct. People get too attached to a "style" because it makes them feel like a special snowflake.

Any MA with a tradition is a traditional MA, literally.
Not to mention that most MA are not new at all, heck in GJJ is going on what, 80 years or so?
And yes, we are all special snowflakes or at least we are all flaky.

[Crushing Step]

Not sure how that counters my point that the majority of people doing MA don't do it for fighting purposes...

MMA is TMA or I should say, is what TMA WERE before they got Turked by lousy instructors and comercializim.

ALL MA in MA are TMA in one for or another.

My point is a lot of people START martial arts for self defense purposes. Part two, once people are in a style, they have themselves fooled. "My art is to deadly to spar", or "my art is too refined to spar" are two things you hear a lot. And these people, who say they are not in MA for fighting, think they have their self defense bases covered.

Oh, and I wonder where you get your percentages from?

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/statistics.gif

:D

[Ray Pina]

...I may be misunderstanding something here, but, the way you come across makes it seem like you fight because you like to hurt people. Would you like to state your position more clearly on this?

The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I love all beings.

What I do like to do is jam an attack, create an opening and land a beautiful blow that put the other down. I love to follow him down gracefully and finish the fight quickly, one way or another. That's what I love.

I do not create and I avoid conflict in my day-to-day life. In a competitive fight, I do not try to "hurt" the other man, as much as I try to bring as much of my self and weaponry to bare that they quit or can't fight back.

Everyone going knows what they are getting themselves into.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My point is a lot of people START martial arts for self defense purposes. Part two, once people are in a style, they have themselves fooled. "My art is to deadly to spar", or "my art is too refined to spar" are two things you hear a lot. And these people, who say they are not in MA for fighting, think they have their self defense bases covered.

Oh, and I wonder where you get your percentages from?

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/statistics.gif

:D

60% of the time my stats are right everytime.

[Ray Pina]

People get too attached to a "style" because it makes them feel like a special snowflake.

This is so true. And I've been guilty of it.

[Crushing Step]

60% of the time my stats are right everytime.

That was golden!

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was golden!

Can't take credit it for it, Anchorman, the story of Ron Burgandy, is just chalk full of these gems !
No go back to your home on wh0re Island !
:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I love all beings.

What I do like to do is jam an attack, create an opening and land a beautiful blow that put the other down. I love to follow him down gracefully and finish the fight quickly, one way or another. That's what I love.

I do not create and I avoid conflict in my day-to-day life. In a competitive fight, I do not try to "hurt" the other man, as much as I try to bring as much of my self and weaponry to bare that they quit or can't fight back.

Everyone going knows what they are getting themselves into.

Cool. I respect that.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Gentlemen,
Its been an interesting thread and if I may inject a few thoughts or questions.

For Mr Pina: Why such a big emphasis on actual fighting, wins and losses, or competition? Is this the only measure of a martial artist? The most important? Do you feel its the only way they can validate their skill to you? Or is it about you validating your skill to yourself? If its about the 'warrior' spirit, a test of wills and skill, I can understand and appreciate that. You seem to have much respect only for those teachers who are accomplished or successful fighters. You are certainly entitled to that belief. There are also many wonderful martial arts teachers who may have been poor fighters..."those that can't do, teach".

The question was put forth regarding why only a small portion of martial artists actually fight or compete...maybe I'm wrong but I think its tied into JJMantis' statement My point is a lot of people START martial arts for self defense purposes and they seek self defense out of fear. You see it all the time, years of martial arts, can't overcome that fear of being hit, fear of failure, fear of embarrassment. Fear is a powerful motivator. In my observations, fear wins or loses more fights before it ever gets to the actual physical confrontation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for realistic training, full speed...sparring, varied training, cross training, incorporating new techniques, I just don't feel I need to test myself against anyone else for my martial training to be complete. Neither will I shy away from it. I enjoy the smaller victories over myself, my endurance, my mindset, improving a technique, or taking my fitness training up a notch. I guess it all depends what your'e in it for or what your value system is.

[Ray Pina]

For Mr Pina: Why such a big emphasis on actual fighting, wins and losses, or competition? Is this the only measure of a martial artist? The most important? Do you feel its the only way they can validate their skill to you? Or is it about you validating your skill to yourself? If its about the 'warrior' spirit, a test of wills and skill, I can understand and appreciate that. You seem to have much respect only for those teachers who are accomplished or successful fighters. You are certainly entitled to that belief. There are also many wonderful martial arts teachers who may have been poor fighters..."those that can't do, teach".

I was a prodigy karateka .... as a kid. In was very good. Then I got lost in the HS, college years. Thank God I found my way back to training.

I wasn't impressed when my brother-in-law brought over the first UFC. I grew up in the Newark, NJ area and I've seen people get jacked up on the ground, thought it was tactically stupid to purposely take a fight there.

Fast foreword, hell, 15 years, and now I see this is a venue for bad motherfu(kers who think they got the goods. I think I got some goods and am developing the goods that I want. So I'm taking it their as an amateur. I haven't won any sanctioned fights yet. But losing doesn't scare me. It drives me. You heard it hear first: I'm going to kick someone's a$$ ina kick boxing match in two weeks and win my first MMA match in Dec. (I'll post video win or lose).

You don't need to compete to get my respect, but you do have to bang around. Either in class (lowest form) or with other schools in a friendly or competitive manner.

I love the discipline, the modesty, the respect my sensei taught me... martial spirit. But I also used to get bloody noses weekly. He set my martial standard and I appreciate it.

A martial artist that doesn't fight isn't a martial artist. Someone can have the coolest surf trunks, surf racks on their SUV, a nice new board..... you aint even a surfer the first 300 times you paddle out. You're a surfer when you see opportunity in waves others see fear in. It becomes you.

As far as teachers, my old master use to say: If I'm going to teach you to fly like an eagle, I need to at least fly like a chicken. Living in PR I've discovered not only can a chicken book a$$ to a rooftop quick fast, it can balance on a fence like a cat.

I only train with warriors now. Period. Time is too precious for BS.

[SimonM]

I was a prodigy karateka .... as a kid. In was very good. Then I got lost in the HS, college years. Thank God I found my way back to training.

I wasn't impressed when my brother-in-law brought over the first UFC. I grew up in the Newark, NJ area and I've seen people get jacked up on the ground, thought it was tactically stupid to purposely take a fight there.

Fast foreword, hell, 15 years, and now I see this is a venue for bad motherfu(kers who think they got the goods. I think I got some goods and am developing the goods that I want. So I'm taking it their as an amateur. I haven't won any sanctioned fights yet. But losing doesn't scare me. It drives me. You heard it hear first: I'm going to kick someone's a$$ ina kick boxing match in two weeks and win my first MMA match in Dec. (I'll post video win or lose).

You don't need to compete to get my respect, but you do have to bang around. Either in class (lowest form) or with other schools in a friendly or competitive manner.

I love the discipline, the modesty, the respect my sensei taught me... martial spirit. But I also used to get bloody noses weekly. He set my martial standard and I appreciate it.

A martial artist that doesn't fight isn't a martial artist. Someone can have the coolest surf trunks, surf racks on their SUV, a nice new board..... you aint even a surfer the first 300 times you paddle out. You're a surfer when you see opportunity in waves others see fear in. It becomes you.

As far as teachers, my old master use to say: If I'm going to teach you to fly like an eagle, I need to at least fly like a chicken. Living in PR I've discovered not only can a chicken book a$$ to a rooftop quick fast, it can balance on a fence like a cat.

Those that's can't do teach others also not to do. That's why I never took a writing course. I don't want to learn writing from someone who wasn't good enough to be at home counting their money from writing, mad good books.

I only train with warriors now. Period.

I agree with Ray. If you have never reached a summit you can hardly call yourself a mountain climber. If you have never camped you aren't an outdoorsman. And if you haven't ever done some sort of fighting you just aren't a martial artist.

You might be an exceptionally martial looking dancer though. :D

[Ray Pina]

Don't be to hard on them Ray, I mean after all, people are what they chose to be.

True. But they need to raise their standard, across the board in all aspect of life. We are becoming soft as a society."



Besides, true warriors in the MA are obsolete, a thing of the past, less than 1% nowadays.

Depends on where you go.

One reason I loved training at Renzo was because you get sense winning in the air. There's guys that train all day, almost every day. Champions of BJJ, MMA, Thai Boxing, walking in and out all the time..... and everyone cool!

Where I train BJJ now, only my coach and I are fighters so far. But we all train the same. I have so much respect for my training partners. Personally, I don't know how they do it. I get through the training because I know what I'm training for. They're with me step for step just for the training sake. And they're getting good, tough, fluid.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True. But they need to raise their standard, across the board in all aspect of life. We are becoming soft as a society."




Depends on where you go.

One reason I loved training at Renzo was because you get sense winning in the air. There's guys that train all day, almost every day. Champions of BJJ, MMA, Thai Boxing, walking in and out all the time..... and everyone cool!

Where I train BJJ now, only my coach and I are fighters so far. But we all train the same. I have so much respect for my training partners. Personally, I don't know how they do it. I get through the training because I know what I'm training for. They're with me step for step just for the training sake. And they're getting good, tough, fluid.

All warriors are fighters but not all fighters are warriors.

[SimonM]

Yeah, fighters get extra feats but fewer special powers. Warriors could be rangers, palladins or barbarians. :D


Ok so I played D&D in grade 9 and still read OOTS. :p

[Ray Pina]

I agree with Ray. If you have never reached a summit you can hardly call yourself a mountain climber. If you have never camped you aren't an outdoorsman. And if you haven't ever done some sort of fighting you just aren't a martial artist.

You might be an exceptionally martial looking dancer though. :D

The one that really gets me though, are all these "masters."

I've been in martial arts my whole life. I've met two men I've called master fully believing anything else would be a disservice to them. One is Master David Bond Chan. And most recently Renzo Gracie. Obviously there are many more out there, but not as many as these magazines and web sites would have you believe.

Renzo Gracie is in his mid-30s, handsome, soft hearted, kind... easy to laugh and very easy to make you laugh. He's about my hight (5'11) with a broad back and shoulders. Strong hands. He has been through some battles and has won most of them. He trains hard with others who also train hard.

You would see the difference between a real master a self proclaimed master if he was ever motivated to pay these other masters a visit. It wouldn't even be close.

Have these internet experts throwing students around (be it chi blast in Japan or "hallway encounters" in Brooklyn) no shame? They must love martial arts to have devoted that much time to it. Why be another person to pervert the thing you love? Put down the camera, or leave it on, and DO something. There's a whole world out there waiting to see if you're 1/10th as good as you say you are. They'll let you know real fast.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, fighters get extra feats but fewer special powers. Warriors could be rangers, palladins or barbarians. :D


Ok so I played D&D in grade 9 and still read OOTS. :p

Kids.......

[sanjuro_ronin]

The one that really gets me though, are all these "masters."

I've been in martial arts my whole life. I've met two men I've called master fully believing anything else would be a disservice to them. One is Master David Bond Chan. And most recently Renzo Gracie. Obviously there are many more out there, but not as many as these magazines and web sites would have you believe.

Renzo Gracie is in his mid-30s, handsome, soft hearted, kind... easy to laugh and very easy to make you laugh. He's about my hight (5'11) with a broad back and shoulders. Strong hands. He has been through some battles and has won most of them. He trains hard with others who also train hard.

You would see the difference between a real master a self proclaimed master if he was ever motivated to pay these other masters a visit. It wouldn't even be close.

Have these internet experts throwing students around (be it chi blast in Japan or "hallway encounters" in Brooklyn) no shame? They must love martial arts to have devoted that much time to it. Why be another person to pervert the thing you love? Put down the camera, or leave it on, and DO something. There's a whole world out there waiting to see if you're 1/10th as good as you say you are. They'll let you know real fast.

Most of the Gracies are cool guys, never heard anything but good stuff about Renzo.
The Machado's are another bunch of super nice, super tough SOB's.

[SimonM]

Kids.......

Let me guess: Back in your day Gary Gygax actually wrote most of the material himself. ;)

[SimonM]

The one that really gets me though, are all these "masters."

I've been in martial arts my whole life. I've met two men I've called master fully believing anything else would be a disservice to them. One is Master David Bond Chan. And most recently Renzo Gracie. Obviously there are many more out there, but not as many as these magazines and web sites would have you believe.

Renzo Gracie is in his mid-30s, handsome, soft hearted, kind... easy to laugh and very easy to make you laugh. He's about my hight (5'11) with a broad back and shoulders. Strong hands. He has been through some battles and has won most of them. He trains hard with others who also train hard.

You would see the difference between a real master a self proclaimed master if he was ever motivated to pay these other masters a visit. It wouldn't even be close.

Have these internet experts throwing students around (be it chi blast in Japan or "hallway encounters" in Brooklyn) no shame? They must love martial arts to have devoted that much time to it. Why be another person to pervert the thing you love? Put down the camera, or leave it on, and DO something. There's a whole world out there waiting to see if you're 1/10th as good as you say you are. They'll let you know real fast.

I have met one person who I would call a master. He has been doing martial arts longer than I have been alive, has competed in countless venues, and crosstrains various kung fu, boxing and jiu jutsu. I concur that people toss arount the appelation much too lightly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let me guess: Back in your day Gary Gygax actually wrote most of the material himself. ;)

I don't even know who that is.

[SimonM]

Get yourself to wikipedia!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I don't care about your methods in combat. I care about your combative spirit.

One of the strangest attitudes that I find in many MA clubs is the "oh, are you ok?" reaction that some people get when they actually hit me. It's d@mn funny, and I will readily admit that I was one of those people until I met my ZRM instructor. While doing a live drill, I responded to his aggression according to context, and popped him one good, split his lip. My reaction? "Oh! Are you oka-" Next thing I know, I'm on the ground, seeing stars, and he's laughing his ass off. "Never ask the guy if he's ok until after the fight," was his response.

That was a big lesson. I took it to heart, and have made a point to pass it on. :)

These days, when someone hits me or causes me to bleed and reacts with "oh, are you okay," they generally find that in that moment, they've lost the initiative. My comment after our exchange is simply this:

If I'm not turtled on the ground, It's all good. :D

I will concede that, in today's MA world, it's the competitive athletes who most appreciate this spirit. The Caveat, though, is that this spirit often (not always,) becomes corrupted by Ego, resulting in either an arrogant sadist who loves dominating and inflicting pain, or a tough masochist who loves receiving pain. The Traditional arts have better safeguards against such perversion, but the problem there is that the checks and balances risk removing the combative spirit altogether(again, not always.)

Be it Kung Fu, MMA, Judo, Karate...I most respect those athletes and traditional artists that exhibit the uncorrupted fighting spirit. In my books, these people are much closer to warriors than they are to fighters or pacifists.

CSP

[sanjuro_ronin]

Get yourself to wikipedia!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax

Dude, THIS is role playing !

[Ray Pina]

I have met one person who I would call a master. He has been doing martial arts longer than I have been alive, has competed in countless venues, and crosstrains various kung fu, boxing and jiu jutsu. I concur that people toss arount the appelation much too lightly.


And it's not just that they have mastered their individual technique, they have mastered life. They're successful. Live well. Are well adjusted towards others because they know who they are, as well as who's eyes they're looking into.

[SimonM]

:D Agreed. :D