Freaky Experience

[MightyB]

I work in television and one of the programs that I work on is called "Champions of Healthcare" which is a video news release for a local hospital. Lately we've been doing a lot of orthopedic and spinal surgeries. Today we were profiling a person who's getting ready to undergo a total shoulder replacement- the joint is gone- so I ask the doctor what causes that- basically it's a hard life. Same thing goes for a lot of the spinal surgeries that I see (kyphoplasti - X-stop - spinal fusions). My point is- this person who's basically lost their shoulder got the wear and tear from regular sports and their job- the sports being volleyball, football, and softball. So what the heck is the hard judo, MMA, and the hard corpse weight training going to do to us 25 or 30 years from now.

Maybe it's time just to sit back and enjoy the forms.

[bakxierboxer]

While those are serious problems, there is nothing quite so troubling as this little bit from Yahoo! news:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I work in television and one of the programs that I work on is called "Champions of Healthcare" which is a video news release for a local hospital. Lately we've been doing a lot of orthopedic and spinal surgeries. Today we were profiling a person who's getting ready to undergo a total shoulder replacement- the joint is gone- so I ask the doctor what causes that- basically it's a hard life. Same thing goes for a lot of the spinal surgeries that I see (kyphoplasti - X-stop - spinal fusions). My point is- this person who's basically lost their shoulder got the wear and tear from regular sports and their job- the sports being volleyball, football, and softball. So what the heck is the hard judo, MMA, and the hard corpse weight training going to do to us 25 or 30 years from now.

Maybe it's time just to sit back and enjoy the forms.

Trauma to joints due to over use ( CTS, Impingements, etc) is very common, too common perhaps, some people have it and don't even "know" it.

Funny thing, when I was in physio for an impengment (sp?) on my left shoulder I mentioned that he probably sees lots of weight lifters and body builders and he said that he sees more "repetitive trauma" guys than anyone else, especially in his field (sport).
He said that doing 5 sets of 5 reps with 150lbs for overhead press (for example) is less damaging than doing 5 sets of 10 with 100lbs even with the heavier weight.
Doing 1000's of reps of anything is gonna make you pay the price.
Quality over quantity.
Now, many of us have been brought up in the "more is better" view, but we fail to get that more of something light or moderate is not the same as more of something intense.
EX:
Doing 100 "drops" on the IP back is NOT the same as doing 100 full force strikes on it.
Same goes for makiwara work.

Even more so in terms of forms sense you are throwing out strikes with no resistence.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Training proper, optimal biomechanical movement can prevent this kind of degeneration. A properly designed and executed routine can have many preventative and rehabilitative benefits.

..So yeah, forms and Qi Gong, basically.

CSP

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training proper, optimal biomechanical movement can prevent this kind of degeneration. A properly designed and executed routine can have many preventative and rehabilitative benefits.

..So yeah, forms and Qi Gong, basically.

CSP

That is only part of the equation because, eventually, one must add force to the techniques and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, a reaction that you pay for in your joints either via impact ( on a target) or by "puting on the breaks" in one way or another.
There is where one must adhere to quality over quantity and we must understand that every repetition takes its toll.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

That is only part of the equation because, eventually, one must add force to the techniques and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, a reaction that you pay for in your joints either via impact ( on a target) or by "puting on the breaks" in one way or another.
There is where one must adhere to quality over quantity and we must understand that every repetition takes its toll.


Forms and Qi Gong can develop, maintain, and guide us towards proper biomechanics so that when exertion happens, the biomechanics are better throughout. They also help with rehabilitation and recovery after exertion by re-opening the joints, relaxing tense muscles, etc.

...Putting on the brakes is harmful and counter-productive, imo. There are ways to practice form and develop power without putting on the brakes. In fact, putting on the brakes (ie pulling power punches during forms or drills to "protect" our joints or partners) is not what I consider to be proper biomechanics, and actually hinders power development, generation, speed and skill.

CSP

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In other words, take care NOT to over train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms and Qi Gong can develop, maintain, and guide us towards proper biomechanics so that when exertion happens, the biomechanics are better throughout. They also help with rehabilitation and recovery after exertion by re-opening the joints, relaxing tense muscles, etc.

...Putting on the brakes is harmful and counter-productive, imo. There are ways to practice form and develop power without putting on the brakes. In fact, putting on the brakes (ie pulling power punches during forms or drills to "protect" our joints or partners) is not what I consider to be proper biomechanics, and actually hinders power development, generation, speed and skill.

CSP

Eventually you will have to train explosive shear-causing force and doing that "against the air" requires that you put on the brakes in one for or another.
On a target, the target is the brake and the recoil, in the air, your body is.
There is no problem in doing 1000 reps of an "arrow punch" into the air at a moderate pace to stress proper biomechanics (though 1000 reps is hardly needed in one session, but that is another thread), there is a problem in trying to do them at full speed and full force.
But you must be explosive to train explosiveness, you just don't have to overdue it.

And RD, to simple state not to over train has been proven to be useless.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Eventually you will have to train explosive shear-causing force and doing that "against the air" requires that you put on the brakes in one for or another.

This is most problematic for "straightline" styles, imo. While not to say that "circular" styles are immune to this problem, I think that they do have a biomechanical advantage. Also, it depends on where in the movement your shear-causing force is generated. Is it meant to manifest at the end of the move? Or at the beginning? This matters greatly, because it effectively changes the length of your "runaway lane." A short runaway lane means you need to apply the brakes. A long one means you can relax more. The latter examples are more biomechanically sound, and are often assosciated with "inch" power. There is less need to put on the brakes in these situations.



On a target, the target is the brake and the recoil, in the air, your body is.
There is no problem in doing 1000 reps of an "arrow punch" into the air at a moderate pace to stress proper biomechanics (though 1000 reps is hardly needed in one session, but that is another thread), there is a problem in trying to do them at full speed and full force.

Been there, done that, hurt my joints. :P
With "stirring" energy, though, I can still pull off fast and powerful strikes, while keeping my joints safe. Learning to punch without a jarring force is doable and effective, I'd say more so than "full speed, full force w/ braking" punches.



But you must be explosive to train explosiveness, you just don't have to overdue it.


Fa Jin, anyone?



And RD, to simple state not to over train has been proven to be useless.

"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstein.
...I think this quote is especially needed in the world of Martial Arts.

CSP

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is most problematic for "straightline" styles, imo. While not to say that "circular" styles are immune to this problem, I think that they do have a biomechanical advantage. Also, it depends on where in the movement your shear-causing force is generated. Is it meant to manifest at the end of the move? Or at the beginning? This matters greatly, because it effectively changes the length of your "runaway lane." A short runaway lane means you need to apply the brakes. A long one means you can relax more. The latter examples are more biomechanically sound, and are often assosciated with "inch" power. There is less need to put on the brakes in these situations.

Agreed, though "circular" stylist have their own set of problems ( there really isn't any linear motion in the human body)


Been there, done that, hurt my joints. :P
With "stirring" energy, though, I can still pull off fast and powerful strikes, while keeping my joints safe. Learning to punch without a jarring force is doable and effective, I'd say more so than "full speed, full force w/ braking" punches.

It does pose its unique set of problems, but standard "forging" takes care of those when don properly.
Besides, we train to hit things, not miss...;)


Fa Jin, anyone?

With a side order of silk reeling? yummy !


"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstein.
...I think this quote is especially needed in the world of Martial Arts.

There is nothing so uncommon as common sense.
Besides, until you define over training to simply say don't do it is not good enough.

[David Jamieson]

muscle confusion cycles win again! ha!

probably has a lot to do with diet as well. It is almost never only "one" thing, except in the case of bullets and such. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

muscle confusion cycles win again! ha!

probably has a lot to do with diet as well. It is almost never only "one" thing, except in the case of bullets and such. :)

Muscle confusion works for body building, not so much for power and strength buliding because of the way they tax the CNS, add to that intense MA workouts and you will get a clear picture.
Ina nutshell, following the workouts of trained fighters and pros is NOT a very good idea unless you can eat and "live" the way they do.

[Kevin Huang]

A few years ago, I read an article about a 90+ year old female traditional judo instructor who was still going strong.

Also, an MMA professional fighter competing in the UFC has a different training mentality and regimen from your typical MMA student or even instructor in a local gym.

Kung fu can be overdone too.

As long as the individual practitioner practices intelligently and doesn't overdo things, I see no problem with a lot of these arts.

[MightyB]

Miss Keiko Fakuda http://judoinfo.com/fukuda.htm.

I may be off the mark- but I'm willing to say that modern Judo isn't the Judo the seniors used to play. I'd go as far to say that modern sport style is more brutal and damaging to the body than what people were practicing and competing with even as few as 25 years ago. But that's a debate for the Judo forums.
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It's a hard game to play- keeping it "real" yet not destroying yourself in the process.