hakka wing chun

[kung fu fighter]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0Myxu2TVGcM

[Shadow_warrior8]

This is SAAM PAI FAT 三拜佛, not Hakka Wingchun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIrfgpYSI3Q&feature=related

[chusauli]

Yes, that is Sam Bai Fut demonstrated by Cheng Kwong's ex wife in Hong Kong. Not Hakka WCK!

Amazing to see it here online!

[TenTigers]

what is the origin of Sam Bai Fut? It looks kinda like Wing Chun and Hung Kuen.



Siu-Lum, Hakka,Wing Chun, so many dots to connect....;)

[chusauli]

Rik,

It is another branch passed down from the Red Boat Opera People, particularly to Dai Fa Mien Kam to Fung Siu Ching and then descended amongst several familiies. They retain the characters (Perpetual Spring), often romanized as Weng Chun, whereas Wing Chun Kuen (Praise Opera Fist) is romanized differently. It is a close cousin to other branches of WCK, but has a distinct bigger horse and more Siu Lam like attibutes than Praise Opera Fist.

"Chun" in the Ching dynasty referred to "Spring", "Opera", or "Sex".

Hope this helps. You could also refer to info on Jee Shim Weng Chun. My friend Andreas Hoffman is an authority on the system.

Best regards,

[TenTigers]

wow, "Praise Sex"

(gives new meaning to the term,"Laymen.")

-no wonder China has a population problem!:D

[kung fu fighter]

as well as seamen

[TenTigers]

um, yeah, but in traditional Martial history, many of the rebels and founders of our arts were laymen followers, rather than monks who took Buddhist vows (chastity being one of them!) hense the play on words.

Although many hid and trained on the Hung Suen (Red Opera Boats) so I guess you could say they were also Seamen;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread is becuming a tad sticky...

[TenTigers]

well, if ya wanna have your Gung-Fu effective for the street, you need to have your mind in the gutter!:D

[chusauli]

Well, linked to the Hung Suen were floating brothels... These were the Flower boats.

[CFT]

Well, linked to the Hung Suen were floating brothels... These were the Red flower boats.Uh oh! I can't see this going unanswered. Gird your loins Chu sifu!

Still, it is true that floating brothels were known as 'faa teng' (flower boats).

[chusauli]

http://www.mariner.org/exhibitions/highlights/model_chineseflowerboat.php

and

http://chestofbooks.com/travel/china/John-Stoddard-Lectures/China-Part-16.html

and

http://www.clipart.com/en/close-up?o=4421101

and

http://www.hsoy.org/history/china_trade.htm

There is history, after all.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

It's weird, but the rooting structure, stances, footwork and tactics of Wing Chun have always conjured up an image of maritime hand-to-hand combat for me. I've never really seen much info to support the fact, except the Red-boat connection, but there's always been a certain resonance with the physical reality of Wing Chun and naval hand-to hand requirements. No acrobatics, no high kicks, no schuai jiao with the intent to throw your opponent under the feet of battling hordes, and a focus on one-one one engagement within multiple opponent scenarios. It's as though there are design elements that resonate with a) the spatial/structural requirements of combat on a moving confined space, such as the deck of a boat or below deck, and b) the average combatant density (number of fighters) in naval hand-to-hand conflict. The weapons are also well suited to naval combat. Anyone have any concrete evidence to support these ideas?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's weird, but the rooting structure, stances, footwork and tactics of Wing Chun have always conjured up an image of maritime hand-to-hand combat for me. I've never really seen much info to support the fact, except the Red-boat connection, but there's always been a certain resonance with the physical reality of Wing Chun and naval hand-to hand requirements. No acrobatics, no high kicks, no schuai jiao with the intent to throw your opponent under the feet of battling hordes, and a focus on one-one one engagement within multiple opponent scenarios. It's as though there are design elements that resonate with a) the spatial/structural requirements of combat on a moving confined space, such as the deck of a boat or below deck, and b) the average combatant density (number of fighters) in naval hand-to-hand conflict. The weapons are also well suited to naval combat. Anyone have any concrete evidence to support these ideas?

Well, it could be the case of a system being designed for the environment it is used in or a system MODIFIED for that environment or even a case of "looking back in history" to see a simple coincedence.
We may never know for sure...
Fun to speculate though.

[t_niehoff]

I believe Robert is pointing out that historically (as opposed to the romantic legends and stories) the Red Boat Opera traveled with/along side the Flower Boats. Not really surprising since actors were considered a low-class -- the same level as prostitutes -- by respectable people.

[chusauli]

Maybe I need a caveat:

"Any similarity to actual persons, names, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

:)

[hhe]

Not really surprising since lawyer today is consider low class -- the same level as prostitutes -- by respectable people.

[Wayfaring]

I believe Robert is pointing out that historically (as opposed to the romantic legends and stories) the Red Boat Opera traveled with/along side the Flower Boats. Not really surprising since actors were considered a low-class -- the same level as prostitutes -- by respectable people.

I didn't get that at all from the links Robert provided. What I gathered is that in the high commerce areas, you'd find traveling boats providing entertainment for those in the rich trading areas. More than one type of entertainment - Flower boats for the opium, geishas, etc. and Opera boats for the theatre aspect.

I'm sure that as far as class status, the opera players would be more of a lower income class and in that of the same class as the flower boat personnel. I'm sure that the rich smoking opium on the flower boats would have considered the opera players of the servant class. It's quite a leap of logic to state which of those classes were the "respectable people" though.

The common link between the two was work - they went were they had work - opera troupes needed to put on their shows for a paying audience. Flower boat entertainment also.

Your leap of logic there, and perhaps Robert's too in the commment on Hung Suen being "linked" to Flower boats is kind of like saying that Celine Dion is low class and the same level as a prostitute because she regularly performs in Las Vegas where due to the economy there is a large influx also of prostitution, gambling, drug use, and the like. The only logical "link" there is that there is $$$$ to spend on entertainment in the same general area, and the rich gather there to partake. To make a moral and lifestyle comparison there is simply ignorant and without basis. I mean I'm sure there were all sorts working the operas. Most would be too poor to partake of anywhere near the depravity that the rich traders would.

[t_niehoff]

Not really surprising since lawyer today is consider low class -- the same level as prostitutes -- by respectable people.

What a brilliant, witty retort. With a mind that keen you'll go far -- you may even someday earn that GED. ;)

[t_niehoff]

I didn't get that at all . . . .

I didn't expect you would.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't get that at all from the links Robert provided. What I gathered is that in the high commerce areas, you'd find traveling boats providing entertainment for those in the rich trading areas. More than one type of entertainment - Flower boats for the opium, geishas, etc. and Opera boats for the theatre aspect.

I'm sure that as far as class status, the opera players would be more of a lower income class and in that of the same class as the flower boat personnel. I'm sure that the rich smoking opium on the flower boats would have considered the opera players of the servant class. It's quite a leap of logic to state which of those classes were the "respectable people" though.

The common link between the two was work - they went were they had work - opera troupes needed to put on their shows for a paying audience. Flower boat entertainment also.

Your leap of logic there, and perhaps Robert's too in the commment on Hung Suen being "linked" to Flower boats is kind of like saying that Celine Dion is low class and the same level as a prostitute because she regularly performs in Las Vegas where due to the economy there is a large influx also of prostitution, gambling, drug use, and the like. The only logical "link" there is that there is $$$$ to spend on entertainment in the same general area, and the rich gather there to partake. To make a moral and lifestyle comparison there is simply ignorant and without basis. I mean I'm sure there were all sorts working the operas. Most would be too poor to partake of anywhere near the depravity that the rich traders would.

Don't compare the attitudes of today to those of yesteryear, doesn't work that way.
In China, MA, entertainers and such were not highly regarded, outside those that were also doctors or priests or already high standing members of society.
MA were needed, and some were respected out of fear typically, but I don't think they were viewed along the lines of the Samurai or how other warriors were viewed in warrior societies.
Remember, China has always been more of a "merchant" society than anything else.

[anerlich]

It's weird, but the rooting structure, stances, footwork and tactics of Wing Chun have always conjured up an image of maritime hand-to-hand combat for me. I've never really seen much info to support the fact, except the Red-boat connection, but there's always been a certain resonance with the physical reality of Wing Chun and naval hand-to hand requirements. No acrobatics, no high kicks, no schuai jiao with the intent to throw your opponent under the feet of battling hordes, and a focus on one-one one engagement within multiple opponent scenarios. It's as though there are design elements that resonate with a) the spatial/structural requirements of combat on a moving confined space, such as the deck of a boat or below deck, and b) the average combatant density (number of fighters) in naval hand-to-hand conflict. The weapons are also well suited to naval combat. Anyone have any concrete evidence to support these ideas?

I've heard this with regard to most Southern Chinese styles, not just WC. Southern is for cramped conditions, water craft, etc. Northern is for open spaces and solid ground, bigger techniques, intricate kicks, etc.

Not quite the same thing, but there is the story of Willam Cheung successfully fighting off 3 or 4 adult merchant seamen on the boat to Australia as a teenager. Apparently witnessed by several other oldtime Australian WC instructors including Greg Tsoi. Allegedly the narrow passages of the boat were particularly suited to a WC fighter against multiple opponents, as they couldn't get his flanks or attack him more than one or two at a time.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I've heard this with regard to most Southern Chinese styles, not just WC. Southern is for cramped conditions, water craft, etc. Northern is for open spaces and solid ground, bigger techniques, intricate kicks, etc.

Not quite the same thing, but there is the story of Willam Cheung successfully fighting off 3 or 4 adult merchant seamen on the boat to Australia as a teenager. Apparently witnessed by several other oldtime Australian WC instructors including Greg Tsoi. Allegedly the narrow passages of the boat were particularly suited to a WC fighter against multiple opponents, as they couldn't get his flanks or attack him more than one or two at a time.

Interesting anecdote!

I've heard of the Southern/Northern split before too, although it was presented as Northern = flat ground, Southern = Rocky terrain. Nice to hear a definition of Southern that includes boats and cramped quarters.

[chusauli]

Well, with regards to North and South Fist:

Northern - high kicks, low sweeps, forms patterns generally run east to west, linear, combination long and short, uses bigger horses in general

South - emphasis on strikes, bridge motions, patterns are zig zag or in many directions, or done in small area, more emphasis on short motions, low kicks in general, smaller horses

At high levels, both use the body in conjunction with strikes and kicks, along with breath.

Of course, there are exceptions to all the above.

[Wayfaring]

Don't compare the attitudes of today to those of yesteryear, doesn't work that way.
In China, MA, entertainers and such were not highly regarded, outside those that were also doctors or priests or already high standing members of society.
MA were needed, and some were respected out of fear typically, but I don't think they were viewed along the lines of the Samurai or how other warriors were viewed in warrior societies.
Remember, China has always been more of a "merchant" society than anything else.

Do you even read the posts? Where do you get the idea I'm comparing attitudes of today with whenever 'yesteryear' is. I don't have a view of Chinese MA being viewed like some honorific Samurai types. I'm just saying it's pretty **** presumptuous to say who was "highly regarded" or not. Who is doing the regarding? It's more like you and others are doing the "regarding" by looking back in history and applying your own bias.

The only thing I really get out of the little I've done in examining Chinese society and history is that usually there are many layers.

[Wayfaring]

I didn't expect you would.

That might have been witty if you included more than half of that sentence. As it stands, since it's only half the sentence, it's only half witty.

[Wayfaring]

I've heard this with regard to most Southern Chinese styles, not just WC. Southern is for cramped conditions, water craft, etc. Northern is for open spaces and solid ground, bigger techniques, intricate kicks, etc.


What's kind of interesting about this with respect to WC and probably southern styles in general is that you kind of see the specialization in "short bridge" range. When there is unrestricted movement, different aspects of a WC training or different skills are needed - some more of a long bridge type of emphasis or skillset, and the ability to transition between long and short bridging.

[chusauli]

Actually, China was always considered an agrarian (farming) society.

[t_niehoff]

That might have been witty if you included more than half of that sentence. As it stands, since it's only half the sentence, it's only half witty.

I only included half a sentence of your original post as that was the only part of your entire post that was meaningful. But please don't think that I believe you to be a half-wit. I don't give you that much credit. ;)

[kung fu fighter]

What's kind of interesting about this with respect to WC and probably southern styles in general is that you kind of see the specialization in "short bridge" range. When there is unrestricted movement, different aspects of a WC training or different skills are needed - some more of a long bridge type of emphasis or skillset, and the ability to transition between long and short bridging.

YKSWC has both long bridge as well as short bridge training. Duncan Leung's wing chun is considered long bridge. Pao fa lien wing chun is from the north, so maybe they also have different long range tactics where there is unrestricted movement. Does anyone on here train in pao fa lin wc?

[Vajramusti]

YKSWC has both long bridge as well as short bridge training. Duncan Leung's wing chun is considered long bridge. Pao fa lien wing chun is from the north, so maybe they also have different long range tactics where there is unrestricted movement. Does anyone on here train in pao fa lin wc?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW- Ip man wing chun has both long and short bridge.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

I have certainly seen Pao Fa Lien, but I seriously doubt it came from the North.

Everything about it reeks of Southern Fist.

But then, when Tai Ji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua and Northern Shaolin go to the south, it has a southern flavor, too.