Bare-Knuckle Boxing = Western Wing Chun ??

[nschmelzer]

If you study old boxing pictures from periods prior to the use of boxing gloves, a wing chun man cannot help but notice how the bare knuckle boxers have their elbows tucked in front of their nipples - and have one fist out a little further than the back fist. It looks very much like a wing chun structure.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/godfrey-old-george.htm

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/John_L_Sullivan.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-knuckle_boxing&h=374&w=182&sz=48&hl=en&start=10&usg=__KnFWNcsKo0F0Wgsv-5JBOAvLzMg=&tbnid=J8L2PHL7mUA7RM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=59&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbare%2Bknuckle%2Bboxing%2Bpictures%26 gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

If you study the pictures of boxers over time, you will notice that as boxing gloves get introduced and get bigger - the elbows of the boxers move away from the cennter and towards the shoulder line - and eventually past the shoulder line.

Obviously placement of elbows in front of the chest versus outside of the chest changes the physics of the punching and footwork strategies (compare the wing chun punch to a boxer's punch; and compare their footwork). (e.g., western boxers wearing gloves throw punches from their hips and shoulders, and they use footwork as a defensive measure. wing chun boxers throw punches from their hips up through their elbows and center and use elbow's as a platform to redirect attacks - rather than use footwork to avoid attacks. wing chun fighters use their footwork to manage range to optimize their elbow structures)

So who cares?

Could western bare knuckle boxers have independently developed the structures and footwork presently attributed to Chinese wing chun?

[If anyone is aware of any research on this issue, please send me a private message. thanks] For example: http://redrebelmartialarts.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-to-train-with-adam.html

[KPM]

Could western bare knuckle boxers have independently developed the structures and footwork presently attributed to Chinese wing chun?



Absolutely! Western bare-knuckle boxing was heavily influenced by the fencing methods of the day. The compact structure with direct straight lines and deflecting motions for defense is right out of fencing methods. Many years ago Karl Godwin wrote an article for one of the magazines conjecturing that western pugilism was influenced by Wing Chun guys when european merchant marines traveled to and traded along the Southern China coastline. But there is no evidence for this other than the similarities in structure. But the western bare-knuckle structure can be attributed directly to a western fencing influence with no need to bring in Wing Chun!

[monji112000]

If you study old boxing pictures from periods prior to the use of boxing gloves, a wing chun man cannot help but notice how the bare knuckle boxers have their elbows tucked in front of their nipples - and have one fist out a little further than the back fist. It looks very much like a wing chun structure.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/godfrey-old-george.htm

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/John_L_Sullivan.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-knuckle_boxing&h=374&w=182&sz=48&hl=en&start=10&usg=__KnFWNcsKo0F0Wgsv-5JBOAvLzMg=&tbnid=J8L2PHL7mUA7RM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=59&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbare%2Bknuckle%2Bboxing%2Bpictures%26 gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

If you study the pictures of boxers over time, you will notice that as boxing gloves get introduced and get bigger - the elbows of the boxers move away from the cennter and towards the shoulder line - and eventually past the shoulder line.

Obviously placement of elbows in front of the chest versus outside of the chest changes the physics of the punching and footwork strategies (compare the wing chun punch to a boxer's punch; and compare their footwork). (e.g., western boxers wearing gloves throw punches from their hips and shoulders, and they use footwork as a defensive measure. wing chun boxers throw punches from their hips up through their elbows and center and use elbow's as a platform to redirect attacks - rather than use footwork to avoid attacks. wing chun fighters use their footwork to manage range to optimize their elbow structures)

So who cares?

Could western bare knuckle boxers have independently developed the structures and footwork presently attributed to Chinese wing chun?

[If anyone is aware of any research on this issue, please send me a private message. thanks] For example: http://redrebelmartialarts.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-to-train-with-adam.html
I have seen many photos like those, friends have shown me them too. With all honesty the similarity is only superficial. the hand placement is similar for some styles of WC. It looks similar to VT ect..

a much deeper analysis will show that probably none of the "styles" of WC have that much in common. I would also just like to make the point that I see more similarity in modern Boxing/Kickboxing than in old school bare knuckle boxing. I guess its really about who and what style of WC your talking about.

[nschmelzer]

Interesting. You say that fencing influenced western bare-knuckle boxing... I have heard that spear fighting influenced wing chun (see e.g., hung fa yi lineage or chi sim lineage) - and that the wing chun centerline concept was, in fact, derived from the spear. Perhaps all simply follow the laws of physics and maximum efficiency?

[Lee Chiang Po]

When we do certain things we tend to migrate toward the best ways to accomplish it. If this certain thing is fighting structure, given several different locations where it is being developed, it will all migrate toward the best structures. There appears to be some sort of influence involved, but it is just coincidence really. George forman held his hands like a WC man and he punched from his elbows. As large as he was, still hard to hit, and he hit very hard in return. I have no idea if he was influenced by some other fight form. I had a young white friend back in the early 60's that didn't know what WC was, but he fought in a way that looked like a WC fighter. He fought dead up the center line and he used both hands equal. He did not actually punch though. He struck downward with his second knuckles of the fingers. The same way you would knock on a door. He could swing so fast that you could not see it coming and could not block it. At the same time he was very hard to hit. He kicked WC too. He just said that it was the most natural and comfortable way of fighting for him.

[KPM]

I've always thought Alexis Arguello was one champion boxer that fought in a very "Wing Chun-like" fashion. He stayed relatively square to his opponent, kept his arms in tight, and punched straight up the centerline.




When we do certain things we tend to migrate toward the best ways to accomplish it. If this certain thing is fighting structure, given several different locations where it is being developed, it will all migrate toward the best structures. There appears to be some sort of influence involved, but it is just coincidence really. George forman held his hands like a WC man and he punched from his elbows. As large as he was, still hard to hit, and he hit very hard in return. I have no idea if he was influenced by some other fight form. I had a young white friend back in the early 60's that didn't know what WC was, but he fought in a way that looked like a WC fighter. He fought dead up the center line and he used both hands equal. He did not actually punch though. He struck downward with his second knuckles of the fingers. The same way you would knock on a door. He could swing so fast that you could not see it coming and could not block it. At the same time he was very hard to hit. He kicked WC too. He just said that it was the most natural and comfortable way of fighting for him.

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_FO8x-hO4&feature=related

Mamet hits the nail on the head when he says: No new techniques or ideas are made. Everything has already been done...it's just that things keep getting rediscovered and then implemented again.

Ideas, theory, techniques...it's all been done before. Now it's just being spun a different way.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"These Europeans (bare-knucked boxers) kept their heads back, with their weight on the rear leg. They punched straight and took small, shuffling steps, with a few low kicks or none at all...What I submit to you is that Wing Chun would be greatly improved by incorporating certain key principles of Bare-Knuckle Boxing...

Bare-Knuckle Boxing came to our line through my Si-Gung, Karl Godwin who with his own teacher went in-depth into the study of the roots of the world’s martial arts. In particular those of Western fighting arts, their development and finally, their compatibility with Wing Chun. As a result, my teacher, Bill Graves...spent much time developing and refining his Western influenced Wing Chun...

The compatibility of Wing Chun and Western boxing is nothing new however. It has been recognized before. Bruce Lee, an early Wing Chun practitioner, found that boxing could fit the principles of Wing Chun better than any of the Asian arts....

So my early training in Wing Chun was a combination of undiluted Leung Sheung...Wing Chun as a skeleton with the Western boxing expression. I learned the sets without alteration but when it came to sparring and ultimately fighting it was certainly pre-sport Western boxing. The posture was tilted back with the arms extended upon interception keeping the head away from the opponent’s fists. All of Wing Chun’s concepts were in place but the emphasis was certainly a polished Long-Bridge Boxing articulation...the way I train now is much different.

It’s all advanced, short range centerline control. It is the opposite spectrum of my early training and is considered advanced Wing Chun...

But as a teacher I have come to understand the importance of retaining that early longer range Western Long-Bridge Boxing. My experience has been that without its influence, a three to eight year practitioner of Wing Chun is predominantly a mid to short range fighter who finds kickers and anyone who fights at, or just outside of, boxing range to be problematic. I say this with all due respect not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I’ve touched hands with many of the major lines’ practitioners only to find them wanting. They could not deal with someone who kept them out of their comfort zone. In other words, I found that their interpretation of Wing Chun was somehow limited by tradition. It lacked presence and innovation."


***AS I'VE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES, wing chun is short range fighting and can indeed be married to certain aspects of western boxing (and kickboxing) to take up the slack. The exact approach to this marriage might vary from person-to-person, ie.- I use a different longer range approach to my elbow placement and I do use horizontal boxing punches from longer ranges...but the whole concept of making up the distance with different structures and delivery is the key here...

so I welcome this quote from post#1.

[Vajramusti]

It's tempting to make comparisons but the differences are generally greater than the similarities.
Differences in weighting, joint connections among other things. I know that Andrew likes to refer to Dempsy a lot- but Dempsey fought froma crouch. As a matter of fact his training included
shadow boxing in spaces with low ceilings. And Dempsey's falling step was ready made for Tunney's footwork and jabs.(I actually met and visited with Dempsey at his Manhattan restaurant).Of course good observers can always learn things from action in any martial activity.

Alexis Arguello indeed punched straight and fairly square but his stance was no where wing chun. His kind of standing had the weakpoint in handling flank attacks which can affect wc folks with bad structures as well. Arguello got demolished by Aaron Pryor the "hawk" who also stood
fairly square but relentlessly attacked from all angles. If one sticks with real boxing rather than wannabe fitness club boxing the price to be paid can be heavy. In his last fights Pryor was basically fighting blind.

Tyson in his prime was more wing chunnish in many ways than any other boxer. Again, can't carry the example too far. But-he could punch with either hand , squared on, balanced on both feet fairly equally. ...real short power compared to most other boxers and the dynamic geometry of the peekaboo protected his center..those were important factors.
Later after the death of Cus DAmato and dumping the Amato protege ((kevin..?))who was his trainer- by the time of the Buster Douglas fight his peekaboo was gone and Douglas could jab and uppercut right through the vanished peekaboo. Both Jack Johnson and Tyson were tragic figures..in a classic sense, after their initial wunderkind performances.

Tempting to make comparisons. But wing chun disappears with erosion or non existence of
wing chun dynamics which includes structural issues..Admittedly, wc is not the only way to fight. But when taught right and practiced right- wc is an amazing art and activity.

joy chaudhuri

[Fa Xing]

Xingyi people say the same thing about BKB.

Hmm...maybe then there are no styles in combat...hmm...:rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

If you study old boxing pictures from periods prior to the use of boxing gloves, a wing chun man cannot help but notice how the bare knuckle boxers have their elbows tucked in front of their nipples - and have one fist out a little further than the back fist. It looks very much like a wing chun structure.

Back in the day it was much harder to defend the body, because the body did not move until the feet moved first, and as ‘Joy’ said a lot of boxers fought in the crouch position working combos off the body, because the body is easy to hit if you do not have good footwork… Bang the body and it will be hard for one to last the mid or later rounds of the fight… (Talk about your jaw of glass and belly of cotton.)

So most boxer did that (drop the elbows), because it was much easier to pull or slip the head away from a punch in bare-knuckle fighting… ‘Jack Johnson’, the best ever had very good feet and was hard to hit to the body or head… Now with the gloves you don’t have to give up something to protect something the gloves are big enough to make your defensive structure work like a shield protecting the head and the body at the same time…


Both Jack Johnson and Tyson were tragic figures..in a classic sense, after their initial wunderkind performances.

I hear ya Joy, but 'Jack Johnson' only down fall was falling in love with a white women, and from that; they tried everything to strip his title from him and they did… Back in those days it was only so much that a Negro could do and have, and to have the right to fall in love with whomever one chooses, was totally out of the question, in which very much help to contribute to his lost of the championship.

Jack Johnson and Tyson lived in two different worlds…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

I think any similarities in structure are superficial at best.

While it may look similar the use of timing and conectivity between actions and horse are very different IMO.

My use of the forearm as well as the wrist and fist make the seperation in my mind.
Its kinda why ive always agreed with the idea that VT's more like 'Dirty boxing' if anything...

Sure some similarities are there, but on certain days i can see images in the clouds too :o

DREW

[KPM]

I think any similarities in structure are superficial at best.

While it may look similar the use of timing and conectivity between actions and horse are very different IMO.

My use of the forearm as well as the wrist and fist make the seperation in my mind.
Its kinda why ive always agreed with the idea that VT's more like 'Dirty boxing' if anything...

Sure some similarities are there, but on certain days i can see images in the clouds too :o

DREW


I gotta agree with Drew. Especially when it comes to comparing the old western Bare-Knuckle boxing to Wing Chun, as was the original poster's intent. While the two seem similar in hand positioning and some techniques......the old pugilism has the equivalent of Pak Sao, Bong Sao, and Biu Sao.....the core structure (and dare I say "engine" :eek:) is very different. Styles varied greatly amongst fighters back then as now, but the "typical" structure was essentially standing sideways and using a pretty deep "lunge" to deliver the lead hand blow. Again, just like a fencing stance and a thrust with the weapon.

[Ali. R]

It's tempting to make comparisons but the differences are generally greater than the similarities.
Differences in weighting, joint connections among other things.

I agree, and with many, many other things when dealing with the similarities within each system.


Tempting to make comparisons. But wing chun disappears with erosion or non existence of wing chun dynamics which includes structural issues..

I totally agree again; their comparisons are no more then what we choose them to be, by looking at a picture and reading its thousand words within, we have obviously seen and comprehend the time, the place, its language, but somehow it can rap itself around intercultural ideals and of the same manifestation… No comparisons at all, when the dynamics are very much so different, as a black and white photo apposed to a color one…


Ali Rahim.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Around a hundred years ago now, there was a faction of militant rebels in China called Boxers. They were not all boxers however, but most of the leaders were ex military and had been trained in a form of Wing Chun. Pretty much where mine comes from I think. And the American marines were trained in boxing techniques at that time. They watched these boxers fighting and called them Chinese boxers. That is supposedly where the name comes from. I was told this by a very old chinese man. He said that a couple of guys would get to shoving and pushing and then start hooking and punching. The marines thought that they were box fighting like they were themselves trained to do. I can see where they would think that too.

[Vajramusti]

Anyone see the fight tonight? 43 year old Hopkins - going against the grain of know it all commentators- kept tearing apart Pavlik the young middleweight champion of the world.
Not wing chun, but there was some wing chun madness in Hopkins' method. Fairly squared on--
both hands blazing- little foot shifts and moving forward while punching- yet denying the opponent opportunities by controlling the lines and the angles by side to side shifting when needed. What a Philadephia fighter. Whata fighter. In the past the old man's hit to Oscar de la Hoya's liver inwards to the center line was another work of art.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

When you have a veteran counter puncher with very good feet and hands, it’s recommended (All good counter punchers fight that way…) that one should stay squared to heighten their counterpunching, speed advantages against someone as awkward and unbalanced such as ‘Pavlik’…

When someone is rigid and tight, in which ‘Pavlik’ is not or seems to be with other fighters, but against someone with more counterpunching and speed abilities your tourney can very well come out that way (getting schooled)….


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

When a man knows what he’s doing and how to do it; for all the young fellows out there be careful, or you might get knocked the f#%k out…


Ali Rahim.