Karate vs Kung Fu

[Ray Pina]

I always loved karate for its almost militaristic discipline when it came to training, and the way in which practitioners interacted with each other.

Kung Fu on the other hand; I've always enjoyed the Shaw Brother hero, not too serious, kung fu jacket unbuttoned, squatting confidently somewhere antagonizing people with truths they don't want to hear.

I don't know why I voice this.

[TenTigers]

Grandmaster Lum-Jo,
"Karate's highest level technique is where Kung-Fu begins."

Grandmaster Chang Tung-Shen-
"Karate is rudimentary Shaolin, Suitable only for children."


(forgot who said this one, but I am fond of repeating it)
"Comparing Karate to Kung-Fu is like comparing paint by the numbers to fine art."

[GreenCloudCLF]

I like to go into Karate dojos just to hear them yell "OOS, SENSEI!!!!!" I always enjoyed that for some reason.

[Water Dragon]

I get a kick out of how people seem to have a need to place what they do as 'higher level' or 'more advanced' than what other people do.

[lkfmdc]

Just an FYI for the entire forum here, especially those "liberals" ;)

China was doing the cultural arrogance, abuse of power, insensitive to minorities and ignorance of the outside world thing THOUSANDS OF YEARS before the US did.... ;)

[SimonM]

And many people have it perfected to an art over there even today.

So what does that have to do with the price of tea?

[lkfmdc]

And many people have it perfected to an art over there even today.

So what does that have to do with the price of tea?

I was refering to Lum Jo and Chang Dung Sheng's quotes

I cold really derail this thread if I suggested a little bit of jealousness might have influenced these quotes

[Hebrew Hammer]

I always loved karate for its almost militaristic discipline when it came to training, and the way in which practitioners interacted with each other.

Kung Fu on the other hand; I've always enjoyed the Shaw Brother hero, not too serious, kung fu jacket unbuttoned, squatting confidently somewhere antagonizing people with truths they don't want to hear.

Two sides of the same coin...and very broad sweeping over generalizations (one based on fictional accounts). I think they tend to be more of a reflection of the cultures in which they flourished. You can certainly find 'militaristic' kung fu and tons of undisciplined karate. I found Shotokan karate to be very stiff, structured, and somewhat unconfortable...always thought it was odd that kumite didn't allow for stirkes to the head. My experience with Kempo Karate was quite different, much less rigid, very adaptable and fluid. Was one better or more effective than the other? Certainly not.

[Kevin Huang]

Karate's original meaning: "China martial art method"

Kempo = "chuanfa" in Chinese = fist way

Shorinji = Shaolin Ssi = Shaolin Temple

[Lucas]

ive seen karate guys put the beat down on kungfu guys and vise versa.

i thought we all knew by this point that its whole dependant on the individual and not the art....

some people still need to figure this out i guess.

[SimonM]

One of the saddest videos for CMAists online is the Karate vs. Drunken Style video.

It is very informative for explaining to people why drunken style is stupid, stupid, stupid and doesn't work though so I feel it serves at least that good purpose.

[Lucas]

ive never trained in karate.

my first kungfu teacher said i fought like a karate guy though. must be my body type or the way i move as it certainly has nothing to do with karate itself.

[Lucas]

One of the saddest videos for CMAists online is the Karate vs. Drunken Style video.

It is very informative for explaining to people why drunken style is stupid, stupid, stupid and doesn't work though so I feel it serves at least that good purpose.

haha, yes i remember that video now. those drunken guys got kicked in the head alot, to the point i dont think they were stumbling on purpose anymore.

[SimonM]

Possibly true.

[Lucas]

i do remember ONE of the drunken guys was kinda ok though. didnt impress me as a great fighter, but he seemed comfortable using his art.

the other drunken guys seemed hesitant and unsure

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having done both I can say that in many ways certain systems of Karate are far better suited for fighting than certain systems of kung fu, that said, advanced karate tends to look like "kung fu" more than it does when you first start out.
By look I mean, it characteristically becomes more fluid, gets more "complete", you use more "specialty fists" and you do more "internal" work.

[golden arhat]

dunno about all the systems of karate out there, but nobody and i do mean nobody can look down their nose at kyokushin.(unless of course your name is ashida kim)

i'd put my money on a kyokushin fighter 9 tiems out of ten against most fighters training in systems of chinese martial arts.

[GreenCloudCLF]

dunno about all the systems of karate out there, but nobody and i do mean nobody can look down their nose at kyokushin.(unless of course your name is ashida kim)

i'd put my money on a kyokushin fighter 9 tiems out of ten against most fighters training in systems of chinese martial arts.

I 2nd that

[David Jamieson]

I've trained both. They both have merit.

Disparaging one over the other is folly.

[peace&love]

I have also trained in both. I believe it all depends on the teacher. Wado Ryu is very popular here in Tennessee, but the level of instruction has gone downhill tremendously due to the art becoming too commercial. Yet, it is all hit or miss depending on the teacher whether it is MMA, karate, kung fu, or TKD.

[IronWeasel]

ive seen karate guys put the beat down on kungfu guys






Never happened.:mad:

[Yum Cha]

I started with Tae Kwon Do in the early 70's at 15, had a ball. American GI class, taught by a Korean Diplomat, 6th Dan. No vests or headgear, tough enough, yet controlled enough. Disciplined.

My kung fu training still draws on that training. A couple of kicks, some residual flexibility beyond my due. But, most importantly, it gave me ring craft, something often discussed as missing from Kung Fu training. Copping king hits, nuts, windings, ring dynamics, intimidation. It gave me an edge, to begin with.

Lots it didn't cover though, evil, lethal spirit, just for an example...

Sorry, I still have to come down on the side that says Big School Karate (at least as compared to my experience with Tae Kwon Do) isn't as evolved as Kung Fu, in that it is by definition, devolved and standardised for consistency.

That standardisation has brought rewards, and kudos.

But, Kung fu has a complexity that goes beyond karate skills, IMHO, if you put in the extra time.

I see Karate having a lot more appeal to younger people, and Kung fu being a more mature alternative. Karate is much more athletic and from my experience, fitness was much more integrated. That's a killer. Not everybody is a time machine like Knifefighter.

Of course, some Kung Fu is falling into the Big School Karate category these days and some Karate, is reaching back to traditional character, like, Kenpo?

So, it really doesn't fall into karate being lower level than kung fu, just the fact that some arts are move evolved than others, and more of the Karate Schools are devolved by design for consistency.

[David Jamieson]

What are you saying? Are you saying the Kungfu is the bridge from Karate to the true gheyness that is taichi??

Because I get that. lol

[Vash]

yeah, karate sucks balls.

For example of this ball-suckage, all the Isshinryu schools I've worked out with/am a part of, have required full-contact, full-range (that includes throws and ground-fighting, if you know jiu jitsu. And if you don't, you learn it) sparring at all rank levels, encouraged working out with as many people as possible, and focused on using kata as a means to develop movement potential, and NOT as the only way to true bad-assery.

Most of the kung fu schools in my area I've contacted w/r/t sparring feel it is not safe nor is it advantageous to the student; injuries are all too common, and it's just too darn dangerous (deadly?)

I'm in the Shreveport, La area, and no, have not contacted all the available schools. I know of at least one that is a very good school, recommended by many of my karate seniors.

Is it low-level? I care. I grow more athletic, more self-aware, and more able to defend myself with every workout. What my art, my way of life, is perceived as by a group who chooses to not test every facet of their art matters to me nil.

From the posters on this board, it's plainly obvious that sensation, that knowledge, is of the minority.

There is not a technique in my basics, in my kata, that I have not applied against a skilled, resistant partner in my training or in my life. Can you say that about your art?

[Vash]

So, it really doesn't fall into karate being lower level than kung fu, just the fact that some arts are move evolved than others, and more of the Karate Schools are devolved by design for consistency.

"Devolved" into what, and from what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh0Ogbet-a4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyUMPjddzZc


I've been in martial arts for 19 years, and I am **** proud to have spent the past eight as part of Okinawa karate.

[southern pwr]

"Devolved" into what, and from what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh0Ogbet-a4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyUMPjddzZc


I've been in martial arts for 19 years, and I am **** proud to have spent the past eight as part of Okinawa karate.

thats good that you have been training 19 years with pride, but the only thing i don't get is that you have been training for so long and you still don't realize that no matter what, people are going to bash on other styles no matter what they train. kung fu bashes karate, karate bashes kung fu. who gives a crap! i haven't been training nearly as long as you have but i see that, thats what it is. people will bash to keep pride of them selves. i respect anyone who puts there heart into training, doesn't matter what style. unfortunately there are bad schools with fraud masters and etc. i enjoy every martial arts, but i can say even some moves from karate that seems so ehhh whatever nothing special to the eye, i enjoy learning the philosophy of it, reasoning to behind the technique. kung fu vs karate, catholic vs Jewish religion, w.e. if something was so perfect we would all be doing it.

[Ray Pina]

I'm an Issin-Ryo man myself. You know the opening for the first few major forms.... knees closed in, closs the arms low... like you were blocking a front kick to the groin?

Was taught a really cool way to break the double unders, sinking the weight and crossing the arms the same way. From there you can go to a standard arm drag.

I know believe this is the true intention of that form move.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

thats good that you have been training 19 years with pride, but the only thing i don't get is that you have been training for so long and you still don't realize . . .

. . . shhhhhh. vash always realizes. always.

vash is like chuck norris on baby fetus stem cell steroids with that realization sh1t.

[David Jamieson]

I'm an Issin-Ryo man myself. You know the opening for the first few major forms.... knees closed in, closs the arms low... like you were blocking a front kick to the groin?

Was taught a really cool way to break the double unders, sinking the weight and crossing the arms the same way. From there you can go to a standard arm drag.

I know believe this is the true intention of that form move.

Those first few sets in Isshin are actually from Goju.

there's only really one Isshin kata the rest of the content of the style is shorin and goju

[Vash]

thats good that you have been training 19 years with pride, but the only thing i don't get is that you have been training for so long and you still don't realize that no matter what, people are going to bash on other styles no matter what they train. kung fu bashes karate, karate bashes kung fu. who gives a crap! i haven't been training nearly as long as you have but i see that, thats what it is. people will bash to keep pride of them selves. i respect anyone who puts there heart into training, doesn't matter what style. unfortunately there are bad schools with fraud masters and etc. i enjoy every martial arts, but i can say even some moves from karate that seems so ehhh whatever nothing special to the eye, i enjoy learning the philosophy of it, reasoning to behind the technique. kung fu vs karate, catholic vs Jewish religion, w.e. if something was so perfect we would all be doing it.

Yes, there's always been and always will be trash-talking between groups of people. That doesn't mean, though, that we can't discuss the issues at the heart of the differences.

[Vash]

. . . shhhhhh. vash always realizes. always.

vash is like chuck norris on baby fetus stem cell steroids with that realization sh1t.

I heard one time GDA headbutted a ram so hard, it offered him oral sex and a turkey-on-wheat sandwich.

True story.

[MightyB]

have required full-contact, full-range (that includes throws and ground-fighting, if you know jiu jitsu. And if you don't, you learn it) sparring at all rank levels, encouraged working out with as many people as possible, and focused on using kata as a means to develop movement potential, and NOT as the only way to true bad-assery.


This is also Good TCMA. Ground fighting is new to both karate and kung fu. Good instructors incorporate some.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isshin-ryu is a great system, many things that it incorporated were considered "revolutionary" - Vertical thumb on top of fist, blocking with the muscle of the forearm, higher stances to name a few.
Of course Shimabuku was also a great teacher and very well liked, he also use to demo power by driving 8" nails though wood with knife hand strikes and his makiwara was like 4" thick !

Personally I think that, in regards to grappling, the GnP is ideal for the typical striking MA and that submission work should be taught later on.
Most strikers catch on to the GnP and "dirty clinch work" far quicker than they do going into a "grappling" context.

[Ray Pina]

Those first few sets in Isshin are actually from Goju.

there's only really one Isshin kata the rest of the content of the style is shorin and goju


There's two forms I'd like to go over with my sensei because I forger parts of them. The first is the one that starts off with three horse stances and tensed breathing (I also learned a sai form of a similar pattern) and one which was very kung fu like, stepiping back with double knife hands down in front followed by crane beaks up, palms out, then beaks down.

[Ray Pina]

Isshin-ryu is a great system, many things that it incorporated were considered "revolutionary" - Vertical thumb on top of fist, blocking with the muscle of the forearm, higher stances to name a few.

My Issin-Ryu is funny. I grew up with the thumb locked across the folded fingers and favored the reverse punch.

Later in college, in the Issin-Ryu club taught by a Jersey City cop, I was taught to hold the fist other way and they favored straight blast, somewhat like Win Chun.

I was like, what's up with this tool? He doesn't know what he's doing.

Later I was at a book store or online and learned he was right, traditional Issin-Ryu is that way. I still favor my hand grip and the reverse punch. I think it lands heavier.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My Issin-Ryu is funny. I grew up with the thumb locked across the folded fingers and favored the reverse punch.

Later in college, in the Issin-Ryu club taught by a Jersey City cop, I was taught to hold the fist other way and they favored straight blast, somewhat like Win Chun.

I was like, what's up with this tool? He doesn't know what he's doing.

Later I was at a book store or online and learned he was right, traditional Issin-Ryu is that way. I still favor my hand grip and the reverse punch. I think it lands heavier.

Probably perception Ray, we tend to use what is more comfortable for Us.
Many studies have shown that how you hold the first and even the contact surface is not that crucial, it just a preference thing.

[Lucas]

know of any good karate schools in the portland area?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know there is a kyokushin dojo in Beaverton, not sure about Portland though.

[Lucas]

ugh....im one of those crazy 30 year olds that never bothered to get a license to drive.....im getting a motorcycle soon though, so maybe getting outside portland wont be so much of a pain then

[TenTigers]

For Ray-

Shimabuku performing sanchin kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFeWJRRm4Qk


Shimabuku performing Seisan Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyUMPjddzZc&feature=related

Shimabuku performing Naihanchi Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyQujMVkO00&feature=related

Shimabuku performing Chinto Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw0T6jekfMs&feature=related

Shimabuku performing Wansu Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arxpvKUnd0g&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shimabuku's makiwara:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Lucus:

http://www.oregonmartialarts.com/

[Lucas]

Hey Lucus:

http://www.oregonmartialarts.com/

GAH!

i really need some wheels. hopefully ill have a bike by the end of the year and I can really open up my options.

:(

[Lucas]

im not familiar with karate styles really,

what do you think bout this

http://www.portlandshorinryu.com/

[cjurakpt]

There's two forms I'd like to go over with my sensei because I forger parts of them. The first is the one that starts off with three horse stances and tensed breathing

seuchin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIjNEMNZuW0&feature=related

[bawang]

traditional karate is very similar to chinese styles in the south. i respect all martial artists doesnt matter what style. i respect the okinawan and some japanese masters that recognize the huge almost 99% influence of fujian and zhejiang kung fu on karate. the complete messed up sheet styles like shotokan i dont respect. what they do is garbage.

people say karate is hard and stiff is because they train wrong. thats ignorant. . its a common bullsheet that the okinawa masters "distorted" the forms. nothing in traditional karate is distorted, the south kung fu styles they learned from were stiff.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmzEECPkrI
at 5:30 this guy from zhejiang province does a sanzhan/sanchin form. his three battle form is very tense.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ayPhqvzp1uw
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=SijKntA8pdw
this south taizu guy is very tense too. this style does sanchin/sanzhan too
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=F1DWDS0rudQ&feature=related
those guys from the same style does it soft.

theres no need to insult karate and say its simplified kung fu, tho i understand if most people only seen the mall kiddie karate they wont have a good opinion of it lol. traditional karate is straight up southern kung fu.

[Ray Pina]

seuchin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIjNEMNZuW0&feature=related

Fu(k yea! That's the one. Thank you so much.

It's my favorite form (then Bak Mei's Chik Pu). Though I used to hate when we did it in class, like five or six of us at a time while other groups hit bags or drilled. We'd have to hold the horse stance low. Created strength, but it also lead to many years of bad knees.

[Laukarbo]

We'd have to hold the horse stance low. Created strength, but it also lead to many years of bad knees.


:cool: could it be that u practsised the horse stance wrong ? Or been wrongly taught ?

on toppic ...Karate is nice ,kung fu is nice ,mma is nice , judo is nice
, thai boxing is nice, etc is nice ... as long u train it right...


now close the forum..there is no more to say :rolleyes: :D :cool: :eek:

[Ray Pina]

:cool: could it be that u practsised the horse stance wrong ? Or been wrongly taught ?

Could be. But we trained it so many ways the right one had to be in there.

I'm talking about form. Horse stance low. The things parallel with the floor. Back straight.

I have video of me doing that same form for cable TV when I was like eight on VHS. Going to try and get it digitized.

[Kevin Huang]

Thighs parallel to the floor is too low, at least in the style I do.

With any martial arts style, one has to constantly ask himself "What value am I deriving from doing this exercise?"

[golden arhat]

Thighs parallel to the floor is too low, at least in the style I do.

With any martial arts style, one has to constantly ask himself "What value am I deriving from doing this exercise?"

having your thighs paralell to the floor isnt tactically viable

but it makes your body work its hardest and delivers the best work out, improving your martial arts as a whole

so thats the value

[David Jamieson]

three battles is a dynamic tension form. Near the entire kata is done with muscle contraction always on and strongly so.

It's silly to call the development method "stiff".
It develops ytensile strength. Other kata are used for the ligaments and tendons and others still are used for speed and footwork, while other methods are employed to develop those different attributes that together make the whole ready for the real meat and potatoes of martial arts which is of course fighting and not doing forms.

forms are to be forgotten after they are understood.

l

[iron_leg_dave]

seuchin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIjNEMNZuW0&feature=related

Lol, if you couldn't master that "form" after three classes, you should never even concider elementary shaolin.
Let alone Wudang Gong Fu.

[Kevin Huang]

People can spend a LIFETIME mastering that particular form, so it is not a shame to not have mastered that form after only 3 classes.

[Lucas]

mastering form:

it has been my experience that you cannot fully master a form until you have been able to apply your applications in a free fighting format. You may learn the form and the movements, but until you can comprehend a majority of the applications and their relationship to free figthing, and how to apply them, you have not mastered your form.

I have learned a form, but then after being taught the applications and having taken time to learn to to apply those applications, the form took on 'new life' for each and every fully understood application i attained.

of course this is not to mention applications that cannot be applied in a freefighting format.

a lot of chin na applications wont be worked in free fighting, especially at the early stages of training, because chance for injury is too great.

thus we develop drills, which work toward the goal of understanding more complex applications that beginners should not try in actual sparring.

[cjurakpt]

Lol, if you couldn't master that "form" after three classes, you should never even concider elementary shaolin.
Let alone Wudang Gong Fu.

we'll all be happy to see your video documenting this claim;

[lkfmdc]

he probably does internal, so his form can not most likely be captured correctly on film :D

[cjurakpt]

times like these, makes one kinda wish Roldan spent time on this forum...

[iron_leg_dave]

we'll all be happy to see your video documenting this claim;


lol, what, am I a troll all of a sudden?

Come on, you can't be serious, there was no complexity to that at all.

Isn't this a gong fu forum?

Don't most of you do gong fu?

There is no way, even in xing yi, I have seen a form that basic before. Not in any school I have ever been to or attended, and not by any friends outside of kwoons.

I will admit, I have seen people doing karate before, personally, I've never seen any reason to look into it. I understand most people make fun of karate, I'm not doing that, I'm just saying...

Maybe I'm missing something.

[cjurakpt]

what is complexity? yi quan has even fewer moves than xing yi and the core "form" is pretty much one "move", post standing: how complex is that?

my first sifu would sometimes show me 20 to 30 moves in a day - usually in rapid succession, maybe 3 times all together, and then I was on my own (and it would be expected that I remembered them and performed them proficiently the next time he saw me - he did this w/everyone - most people gave up and left after a short time) - and often you were learning a hand set and a weapon set simultaneously; my current taiji sifu took more than a year and a half to teach me the classical Yang form, spending weeks on one move sometimes; which approach was more complex?

one can take a "karate" form and note it's lack of length or depth; at face value, this might be as such; or one can take that same form and delve deeply into it - I still occasionally look back at several of the forms I used to do: bassai and naihanchi can yield particularly interesting when viewed from a TCMA perspective - sometimes a good way to see where you come from is to look at where you are going...

you must be somewhere around the 8 to 12 year mark in your training; give it another 10 or so, you might see things differently...

[bawang]

just because your style is complex doesnt mean its good i agree with cjurapt. after three years i learned only 20 ish moves from taijiquan.
p.s i thought xingyi is supposed to be easy lol. isnt it mostly just straight line punching.

[iron_leg_dave]

what is complexity? yi quan has even fewer moves than xing yi and the core "form" is pretty much one "move", post standing: how complex is that?

my first sifu would sometimes show me 20 to 30 moves in a day - usually in rapid succession, maybe 3 times all together, and then I was on my own (and it would be expected that I remembered them and performed them proficiently the next time he saw me - he did this w/everyone - most people gave up and left after a short time) - and often you were learning a hand set and a weapon set simultaneously; my current taiji sifu took more than a year and a half to teach me the classical Yang form, spending weeks on one move sometimes; which approach was more complex?

one can take a "karate" form and note it's lack of length or depth; at face value, this might be as such; or one can take that same form and delve deeply into it - I still occasionally look back at several of the forms I used to do: bassai and naihanchi can yield particularly interesting when viewed from a TCMA perspective - sometimes a good way to see where you come from is to look at where you are going...

you must be somewhere around the 8 to 12 year mark in your training; give it another 10 or so, you might see things differently...


Hm. To me, it looks like various things from various basic gong fu military sets, put together in a stuccato fashion.

Maybe you're right.

I am hearing the "10" and "20" years thing a lot lately from my current "sifu". To tell the truth. I guess I can't really say anymore, assuming you're ****her along in gong fu than me.

I appologize.

Peace.

[iron_leg_dave]

I guess the F A. R T in "far.t.her" is unacceptable.

[iron_leg_dave]

just because your style is complex doesnt mean its good i agree with cjurapt. after three years i learned only 20 ish moves from taijiquan.
p.s i thought xingyi is supposed to be easy lol. isnt it mostly just straight line punching.

If you call standing in San Ti for 30 minutes every day easy, then sure. As far as it's complexity, the rythym, timing, delays, pauses, different types of expression etc. are very complex. It can, however, quickly be simplified into a military/police ready training program, which is what most people are familiar with.

As far as tai qi goes, I do Cheng Man Ching's tai qi, I would say, in 6 months, with one class per week, you should be able to perform half of the form, with few obvious technical errors. I am however, not qualified to really say anything about tai qi. I have a feeling though, that when I have nei jia students some distant day, I won't teach people that aren't willing to practice enough to really pick it up in some acceptable time frame like that.

When I learned Gong Li, the famous shaolin set, my teacher showed it to me once, then tightened it up once 3 months later, and told me to perform it in a tournament. I took first place in my division with it.

I think the difference is, if you do or don't take to art well. If you take it as a hobby, you won't get anywhere. If you grow up living them as sport/play/liesure/work and self, it's easy to pick up new material.

I've heard, once a child reaches three, if you haven't started them musically, any real talent is unlikely to ever manifest.

Just a thought.

[Scott R. Brown]

Sometimes it isn't about how much you know, but about how well you apply what you do know.

Alexander the Great fought much larger armies with strategy and tactics on his part and discipline and motivation on the part of his troops. ( and a few tricks!)

He took simple tactics and a relatively small army and applied them in unique ways to attack the weaknesses of his opponents.

In the same way, David slew Goliath!

[iron_leg_dave]

Sometimes it isn't about how much you know, but about how well you apply what you do know.

Alexander the Great fought much larger armies with strategy and tactics on his part and discipline and motivation on the part of his troops. ( and a few tricks!)

He took simple tactics and a relatively small army and applied them in unique ways to attack the weaknesses of his opponents.

In the same way, David slew Goliath!

For sure, I would agree with all of that.

I would wager though, that if Alexander had had access to more, well thought out, tactical information, he would have jumped on it.

Truelly a rare thing though, that a person chooses not to limit themselves, Like Alexander.

[iron_leg_dave]

In the same way, David slew Goliath!


Right, of course, that story is chilling if a person takes intiative to actually read everything leading up to it, and finally the story, on their own and not at sunday school.

David was the mark of true courage, which entails purety of heart. He actually killed Goliath, in the story, contrary to common knowledge, by running up and decapitating him with (I think his brother's) a sword, which I never knew until I read it, after "Goliat", a huge man with an iron spear and very heavy armour taunted the Isreali soldiers for days, embaressing them and calling them out constantly.

The only reason he was even there, was to deliver food to his brothers, since he was thought to be too fair, lighthearted, musical etc. for war by his father Jesse.

Good story. I liked it.

[Scott R. Brown]

For sure, I would agree with all of that.

I would wager though, that if Alexander had had access to more, well thought out, tactical information, he would have jumped on it.

Truelly a rare thing though, that a person chooses not to limit themselves, Like Alexander.

The problem for all of us is that we are locked into our own perspective. We have no idea what we are missing that may be of importance, because it is difficult to remove our own blinders.

As soon as we think we have done so, we find there are more blinders, indeed believing we have removed our blinders is itself a blinder.

That was one of my disappointments with the Matrix movies. I thought it would have been totally cool for them to reveal that outside of the Matrix is just another Matrix and outside of that is another Matrix and outside of that is still another Matrix ad infinitum!

As long as we think conceptually we are bound by the structure of those concepts which IS a Matrix. To think we are beyond concepts is itself a concept, etc.

[cjurakpt]

That was one of my disappointments with the Matrix movies. I thought it would have been totally cool for them to reveal that outside of the Matrix is just another Matrix and outside of that is another Matrix and outside of that is still another Matrix ad infinitum!.

they should have stopped after the first one (not unlike Rocky, First Blood, Karate Kid etc.), the scene of him walking against the crowd (shades of the end of the video to the Yes song, "Owner of a Lonely Heart") was the perfect "non-ending", and thus the parable they presented of a modern-day Buddha's awakening would have been complete

and I agree, that would have been a cool progression, as opposed to 1,000's of naked people dancing underground in a giant cave (WTF?)

[bawang]

hey iron leg dave, i think you misunderstood me thinking i do taijiquan for a hobby. i dont do it as hobby i practice everyday. this is traditional training. i can actually use the things i learned. instead of transforming magically into boxer guard and doing muay thai round kicks seen from tv when sparring. you learn ten thousand eight hundred forms but which one can you use? if you only do internal form for performance in the jianghu its called "woman fist".

[iron_leg_dave]

hey iron leg dave, i think you misunderstood me thinking i do taijiquan for a hobby. i dont do it as hobby i practice everyday. this is traditional training. i bet buddha's balls you cant apply most things you learned in real fight.

Lol

Don't sterotype me, you don't even know me.

[iron_leg_dave]

The problem for all of us is that we are locked into our own perspective. We have no idea what we are missing that may be of importance, because it is difficult to remove our own blinders.

As soon as we think we have done so, we find there are more blinders, indeed believing we have removed our blinders is itself a blinder.

That was one of my disappointments with the Matrix movies. I thought it would have been totally cool for them to reveal that outside of the Matrix is just another Matrix and outside of that is another Matrix and outside of that is still another Matrix ad infinitum!

As long as we think conceptually we are bound by the structure of those concepts which IS a Matrix. To think we are beyond concepts is itself a concept, etc.


Good post.

So what do you think about the karate kata they posted?

[iron_leg_dave]

hey iron leg dave, i think you misunderstood me thinking i do taijiquan for a hobby. i dont do it as hobby i practice everyday. this is traditional training. i can actually use the things i learned. instead of transforming magically into boxer guard and doing muay thai round kicks seen from tv when sparring. you learn ten thousand eight hundred forms but which one can you use?

five from internal gong fu, 8 from judo, several kicks from shaolin, and all of them from Irish Boxing.


How do you know you can use your tai qi in a fight?

[iron_leg_dave]

The whole thing is, you if train for war, you don't need complexity, you need applicable skills for warring.

If you train to fight in a fighting ring, you need to know how to fight in a ring, with rules and gloves and good strategy.

But when it comes to art, complexity is good for self expression. I guess, beating a garbage can is music, in fact, I like the music produced by garbage cans, however, more can be conveyed I think, with maybe a fiddle, or cello.

When we are thinking of "martial arts" isn't there many sides to concider? And fighting, is only one of those many sides.

I think people will neglect the fighting aspect very often, but what is becoming equally as common, is people focusing on the fighting and forgetting about everything else.

There just isn't any gong in that.

I don't mean to be offensive.

[bawang]

five from internal gong fu, 8 from judo, several kicks from shaolin, and all of them from Irish Boxing.


How do you know you can use your tai qi in a fight?

i spar right now with people from all style in my university gym and when i was in junior high in china i have school fight useing taiji. i learned 5 tricks in china then learned about 20 tricks in canada from other people.


The whole thing is, you if train for war, you don't need complexity, you need applicable skills for warring.

If you train to fight in a fighting ring, you need to know how to fight in a ring, with rules and gloves and good strategy.

But when it comes to art, complexity is good for self expression. I guess, beating a garbage can is music, in fact, I like the music produced by garbage cans, however, more can be conveyed I think, with maybe a fiddle, or cello.

kung fu is for kill a man and take his womans. for 3 hundred years kung fu has been banned and the only people who know it are robbers and salt smugglers and the army. it only was allowed in 1900 when the righteous fist demon slaying movement was popular and the government was desperate. theres no art in WU. people repeat it 1000 times but people dont listen.

tell me how this is an art : technique " killing a duck" you chop a guys neck and when hes choking he sounds like a duck.
"eagle catch rabbit" you put your finger in a guys eye and nose and his face looks like a rabbit.
"two winds go in ears" you hook punch a guy in both his ears.
"ringing a bell" you elbow a guy in the face and knee his balls.
those are from taijiquan. you tell me where is art in that

[iron_leg_dave]

i spar right now with people from all style in my university gym and when i was in junior high in china i have school fight useing taiji. i learned 5 tricks in china then learned about 20 tricks in canada from other people.


Right, I get what you're saying.

This just made me think of another thing. Remembering all of my school yard fights (which obviously have little value to us now, since men are a whole seperate creature from boys). While gong fu can hone your physical abilities overall, I don't think it can make you a good fighter, or an athlete.

I think a person really has to have a nack both for fighting and athletisism before studying gong fu if they are going to get any good. I think natural athletes, with a mean spirit but a good heart are really the best gong fu students.

What do you think about that?

[ittokaos]

Y'know it's funny, when someone wants to discuss something that is important in MA, hardly anyone participates.

However, when something as stupid as "kung fu vs karate" comes along then everyone has something important to say.

From stupid youtube videos of a karate guy who trains beating up a mckwoon beginner in drunken style(which isn't a style at all, it's a subsystem of a style) who doesn't to a serious discussion about how a karate form is weak and can be mastered in 3 classes, this thread is filled with a lot of nothing.

I know I am coming across like an @$$ but that is because I am and I too(because I am drawn to idiocy and unimportant topics like the rest of you) would like to say my 2 cents.

Karate comes from kung fu. I know that there is the saying that every martial style comes from kung fu but this one actually does. It's own history says it. Even the idiots from Human Weapon and Fight Quest said it so since it was on tv you know it's true.

It's foolish to pit them against each other because one is the father and the other the child(so to speak).

Kung fu is awesome and to say that it has less in terms of fighting ability is really foolish and ignorant. Further more to say that since karate isn't a complete kung fu style that it's forms(no matter how basic) lack depth is equally foolish and ignorant.

I think that I have said my piece on that but I am now just going to address some other stuff that I noticed in this thread.

Thumb on the top of the fist: It's not revolutionary and has been a part of one of the oldest martial arts for centuries:the original Lion's roar(hop gar, tibetan white crane, lama pai. etc...).

Finally, the reason why Karate seems stiff is becuse of the fact that the practitioner doesn't understand the different ways to use power. Not something that the sucky teachers that teach the majority of the art know. That is one of the reasons why the great karate guys are so great. Also, the sanchin kata is in part an excercise in dynamic tension but if it cant be used at all for fighting then it would be useless. The movements within the form can be used for combat and the dynamic tension is for muscle training, endurance, and power issuing(most of that understanding is lost on the Mcdojos).

--peace

It's purpose is to assist in using the whole fist for striking. To slam the bottom of the fist with the thumb in a "normal" position would damage the thumb. Also, a popular move at the time of isshin ryu's conception was to allow you opponent to punch at you while you would stop the punch with one hand and use the bottom of your palm(held with palm up) to slide underneath the fist and strike the thumb thus breaking it.

That may have been the reason why it was held that way in their case.

It also stops the fist's power from scattering when the opponent is struck. A "normal fist " has the tendancy to spread out the power (ie. a broken windshield has a break in the middle and little circular cracks spreading out). It's not a bad strike but the alternative has the full power of the blow going directly into the desired target with now residual power escaping. It also allows for a quick double hit which is powerful but hard to do(kinda like that double impact hit from rurouni kenshin).

[iron_leg_dave]

i spar right now with people from all style in my university gym and when i was in junior high in china i have school fight useing taiji. i learned 5 tricks in china then learned about 20 tricks in canada from other people.


kung fu is for kill a man and take his womans. for 3 hundred years kung fu has been banned and the only people who know it are robbers and salt smugglers. it only was allowed in 1900 when the righteous fist demon slaying movement was popular and the government was desperate. theres no art in WU.

I understand the histroy of gong fu.

There is definately art in all gong fu. There is also art in fishing, using a traditional bow, assembling shoes, working with leather, making paper, cutting wood. Art is a lot of things, but one of those things is a high refinement which displays a beautiful resonance of experience in a mature eye.

[lkfmdc]

the reality is, in application the complex seldom is functional, while the basic is victorious. Hint, go back and read what the "masters of old" said... a lot of practice of the BASIC over and over again. ten thousand beng's, one thousand paaus, 500 throws.....

[iron_leg_dave]

Right. I guess I shouldn't really comment on Karate since I have really limited exposure to it.

Someday, I would like to meet a for real, karate dude, that knows his stuff, and can answer my questions. Obviously, friendly, and in person, not via an internet typing situation.

I'm sure I'll get that oppurtunity if such people exist, since I do run into karate people quite often.

This is just to further recant from the karate aspect of this discussion.

[bawang]

I understand the histroy of gong fu.

There is definately art in all gong fu. There is also art in fishing, using a traditional bow, assembling shoes, working with leather, making paper, cutting wood. Art is a lot of things, but one of those things is a high refinement which displays a beautiful resonance of experience in a mature eye.

chinese people just liked to call things "art" its just a figure of speech. there was pao shu cannon art. there was land mine art qian kun di lei bao da fa "supreme magic ground thunder art" lols. killing a man isnt the same as fingerpainting dood.

also what that guy with the funny monkey face avatar said. that was what i was tryin got say. complex forms doesnt mean ur good. theres THOUSANDS of chinese styles taht are simple, theyre just not well known in america because most ppl are hung gar and tang lang clones lol.

[iron_leg_dave]

the reality is, in application the complex seldom is functional, while the basic is victorious. Hint, go back and read what the "masters of old" said... a lot of practice of the BASIC over and over again. ten thousand beng's, one thousand paaus, 500 throws.....

For sure, the problem is though, that the "complexities" of gong fu are really intended to deepen your understanding of basic, applicable gong fu techniques. They are for scholarly seeking to enhance your gong fu, and some complex techniques are for defeating other highly skilled gong fu opponents, sort of like how the real sweet looking sword techniques do have value, but the most important level they have value on, is in how the skills gained translate into your ability to generate power directly into a target with your empty hands. That's just the way I was taught, and it's working out for me.

[lkfmdc]

For sure, the problem is though, that the "complexities" of gong fu are really intended to deepen your understanding of basic, applicable gong fu techniques. They are for scholarly seeking to enhance your gong fu, and some complex techniques are for defeating other highly skilled gong fu opponents, sort of like how the real sweet looking sword techniques do have value, but the most important level they have value on, is in how the skills gained translate into your ability to generate power directly into a target with your empty hands. That's just the way I was taught, and it's working out for me.

uh, how to put this, well, hmmm, uh, NO.........

[iron_leg_dave]

also what that guy with the funny monkey face avatar said. that was what i was tryin got say. havent you heard old stories of shaolin monk practicing a single PUNCH for 10 years lol.


Right, this is where the whole lack in understanding is.

What I said, was that by doing something for a very long time, it becomes quite refined and apparent in the very gestures of a person. That is art.

[iron_leg_dave]

uh, how to put this, well, hmmm, uh, NO.........

Lol, so you think the higher level forms can be eliminated all together, since their complexity has no merit.

If that is the case, would it be better then, in your opinion, to study the basics of all gong fu styles, never moving on to learn the complexities?

That's kind of what Bruce Lee did.

Maybe you're on to something.

[bawang]

Right, this is where the whole lack in understanding is.

What I said, was that by doing something for a very long time, it becomes quite refined and apparent in the very gestures of a person. That is art.

i dont think so because the other half of those stories always end up with the guy leaving the temple and killing someone for revenge.

higher levels forms arent complex. at least they shouldnt be if you train right. sometimes some forms are based on weapon techniques and u need to learn the weapon BEFORE u learn the empty hand form or u dont "get" it. some forms look complex because they have circular moves but when u apply it they turn out to be easy

[lkfmdc]

Lol, so you think the higher level forms can be eliminated all together, since their complexity has no merit.



Most of what you equate with "complex" or "adavanced" is simply filler and fluff and stuff to fill the time while you don't actually fight...

When you take a good hard look at most TCMA systems, what they share in common well outweighs the differences. Those similar core techniques (or principles) are what worked, what will work, and what are important....

Far too much TCMA is clap trap to impress the rubes and keep you hanging around until next month's tuition payment

[iron_leg_dave]

higher levels forms arent complex. at least they shouldnt be if you train right.

Sure they are. Just like when you watch someone play guitar before you learn. It is very complex. Then you learn the major/minor chords, they are simple, the strumming patterns, then the higher level stuff. It is all built on those basic principles, and it becomes very simple, evetually, it is second nature.

However to the unskilled onlooker, it's still complex. So in social reality it is still complex.


I am confused though, so what is it that you practice which is complex?

[iron_leg_dave]

Most of what you equate with "complex" or "adavanced" is simply filler and fluff and stuff to fill the time while you don't actually fight...

When you take a good hard look at most TCMA systems, what they share in common well outweighs the differences. Those similar core techniques (or principles) are what worked, what will work, and what are important....

Far too much TCMA is clap trap to impress the rubes and keep you hanging around until next month's tuition payment

Bingo. Homeboy hit the nail on the head.

You have my respect.

Tentativley.

[bawang]

I am confused though, so what is it that you practice which is complex?

nothing
dood taiji and xingyi both are army spear styles aka MEAT SHIELD style. how can you find any of them complex?! you stand in battle formation and charge in a straight line

i think simplicity is good because its quick and easy to learn and you can build a good base.
a lot of kung fu styles that survived today assume you already have experience fighting in a previous simpler style. but those simpler styles mostly dont exist anymore or people dont bother to learn them.


I think a person really has to have a nack both for fighting and athletisism before studying gong fu if they are going to get any good. I think natural athletes, with a mean spirit but a good heart are really the best gong fu students.
What do you think about that?
i disagree because a good complete traditional style will teach you from scratch all the basics. but a lot of styles that survive today dont teach very good. lots of important things are missing and people are still teaching with that bad formula of forms forms forms light sparring mroe forms.

[lkfmdc]

Bingo. Homeboy hit the nail on the head.

You have my respect.

Tentativley.

Well, I stand corrected, I assumed your views when apparently I was wrong.... it only happens once a year, mark the date ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

All one need do is compare their sparring to their forms.

When I used to spar I stuck to a very few moves and combinations. When my opponents figured out how to neutralize my few specialized methods, it merely created other openings in their cover for me to exploit. I changed my strategy, but pretty much stuck to the same actions.

I have applied the same principles the few times I have grappled.

[iron_leg_dave]

nothing
dood taiji and xingyi both are army spear styles aka MEAT SHIELD style. how can you find any of them complex?! you stand in battle formation and charge in a straight line

first u said some karate form is less complex which is inferior then u agree with monkey face guy that complexity is bad?

Naw man, that's not it at all. It's semantics. The core of gong fu is gong fu, and all real gong fu shares the same core elements. Those are the real nectar. When it comes to art, for most of us that aren't constantly fighting in our free time who have a creative urge, complexity is this beautiful aspect of gong fu that can really be used delve deep into the self enhancing aspects of gong fu. But his post from his standpoint is right on.

Anyway, have you seen this? It's a very small taste of xing yi's complexity in partner study:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qYmS4tOjVvg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qYmS4tOjVvg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYmS4tOjVvg

[lkfmdc]

Bill "superfoot" wallace only threw 2 punches and three kicks, his opponents all know that an yet he still beat most of them

Dan Gable ALWAYS attacked with a low inside single, everyone knew that, the many national teams had studied tape of him well in advance, he still went through the Olympics and won

Yodsenklai Fairtex just throws left round kick to the body

The list is long

[bakxierboxer]

times like these, makes one kinda wish Roldan spent time on this forum...

The old-timer Wilfredo of NYC GoJu?

[bawang]

dont forget sport muay thai!! round house elbow knee more roundhouse lol.

but going back to topic, a lot of simple kung fu styles and okinawa karate focus on conditioning. a kung fu saying goes, yi li shen shi zhao "a stronger punch beats 10 techniques" and "if u learn forms and not gong(conditioning) you learning nothing until the day you die". have you seen that muay thai guy buakkaw train or anderson silva? those guys train like heros! 6 and 8 hour days!
just because a style has simple forms doesnt mean their training is simple. a lot of old kung fu styles didnt even have forms!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okinawan karate katas tend to be simplistic on the surface and , to be honest, with most people it stays that way.
Fact is a kata should "change" as you "change".
Sanchin is a prime example, there are too many versions to mention, but if we take the "classical" one from Goju ( Higaonna senseis, not Miyagi's), even that kata was done in about 3-4 different ways.
Now, sanchin is done differently from system to system and even within systems it can be done differently from lineage to lineage.
Truly it can take years to master sanchin for the very reason that everytime you do it, you will do it differently, indeed you "should" do it differently.
I always assumes that Sanchin was always looked down upon by the Fukien White Crane guys (from what I had read), but when I was in Taiwan and Macao I met a couple and we exchange versions and they were impressed as to how I was doing them.
Its a work in progress like any other form you do.
It may not be as long or as complicated as many other forms, but it has a core that is vital, indispensable even.

[cjurakpt]

The old-timer Wilfredo of NYC GoJu?

You are correct sah! (Although it was / still is Nisei Goju)

I spent ~3 years w/him getting whacked w/sticks, lo some 20-odd years ago (a la Professor V approach) - Dave will attest...

I used to love the look on peep's faces when I mentioned this - sort of quizzical, "You study with him?"

[lkfmdc]

I loved Roldan, he was great

He was only as strange as every other NYC martial artist from the 70's ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I loved Roldan, he was great

He was only as strange as every other NYC martial artist from the 70's ;)

Oi vey !
What a freak !
LOL

[bakxierboxer]

You are correct sah! (Although it was / still is Nisei Goju)

Ah-ha!
The mists of time are clearing!
The Frank Ruiz crew?
(as opposed to the "Chinese GoJu" of VanClief and Wat-Son?)

There were some who used to talk about "Roldan the Flying (or "other") Momser!"
(a take-off on the Japanese monster flix with a "similar" name)


I spent ~3 years w/him getting whacked w/sticks, lo some 20-odd years ago (a la Professor V approach) - Dave will attest...

Never had "the pleasure"... I had other folks to whack me with sticks.


I used to love the look on peep's faces when I mentioned this - sort of quizzical, "You study with him?"

I'm sure it was "edifying"...... :rolleyes:

.... and then there were the rumors as to just why Peter Urban's eyes looked the way they did.........

[cjurakpt]

I loved Roldan, he was great
He was only as strange as every other NYC martial artist from the 70's ;)
he used to call you "New Wave Dave", and ya had no choice but to just like it!



Ah-ha!
The mists of time are clearing!
The Frank Ruiz crew?
(as opposed to the "Chinese GoJu" of VanClief and Wat-Son?)
right; Urban --> Ruiz --> Roldan; Von CLief would ride around the E. Village in his spandex...(in the words of one of our friends, a long time Shorin Ryu guy, "Well, I don't want to know the man.")


There were some who used to talk about "Roldan the Flying (or "other") Momser!"
(a take-off on the Japanese monster flix with a "similar" name)
some just called him "Rodan" straight out; I think others even thought it was his actual name, LOL...


Never had "the pleasure"... I had other folks to whack me with sticks.
so many escrimadors, so little time...


I sure it was "edifying"...... :rolleyes:
my time w/Roldan was definitely...educational...


.... and then there were the rumors as to just why Peter Urban's eyes looked the way they did.........
well, don't know about the eyes, but his spine was evidently a mess - we had one guy who trained w/us back at NYU who had been a personal student of Urban's for 25 yrs., and said that this was why he used to wear a towel around his neck in order to be able to "self-adjust" it all the time...

[sanjuro_ronin]

he used to call you "New Wave Dave", and ya had no choice but to just like it!



right; Urban --> Ruiz --> Roldan; Von CLief would ride around the E. Village in his spandex...(in the words of one of our friends, a long time Shorin Ryu guy, "Well, I don't want to know the man.")


some just called him "Rodan" straight out; I think others even thought it was his actual name, LOL...


so many escrimadors, so little time...


my time w/Roldan was definitely...educational...


well, don't know about the eyes, but his spine was evidently a mess - we had one guy who trained w/us back at NYU who had been a personal student of Urban's for 25 yrs., and said that this was why he used to wear a towel around his neck in order to be able to "self-adjust" it all the time...

The Ramada inn towel ?
;)

[bakxierboxer]

.... well, don't know about the eyes, but his spine was evidently a mess....

I didn't really know him that well.
In his dojo on the edge of Chinatown (that 3-point junction with Canal) it was set up a bit like a Navy ship, and he'd sit in this little cage ("hurricane fencing"?) inside the entry taking payments.... when it got slow, he had a tv mounted up over the counter above eye-height, and he'd roll his eyes up to watch it....... and some theorized that this was why he appeared a bit "bug-eyed"......

To further his "trip" back into the Naval "atmosphere", he also had a "klaxon" and/or horn to signal the start/end of classes.....

[lkfmdc]

I didn't really know him that well.
In his dojo on the edge of Chinatown (that 3-point junction with Canal) it was set up a bit like a Navy ship, and he'd sit in this little cage ("hurricane fencing"?) inside the entry taking payments.... when it got slow, he had a tv mounted up over the counter above eye-height, and he'd roll his eyes up to watch it....... and some theorized that this was why he appeared a bit "bug-eyed"......

To further his "trip" back into the Naval "atmosphere", he also had a "klaxon" and/or horn to signal the start/end of classes.....

wow, you must be, like, OLD... I mean even older than Chris ;)

[bakxierboxer]

wow, you must be, like, OLD... I mean even older than Chris ;)

I'm probably older than most of you kids.... of course, that would normally be the case with someone who'd taught a teacher's teacher's teacher...... I was teaching back in the 60s.

[rogue]

1960's or 1860's?

[bakxierboxer]

1960's or 1860's?

Maybe you can figure it out yourself?

[Yum Cha]

Good post Dave.

Granted, this didin't happen consistently, and to the same degree in all circumstances, but some styles were simplified by design, whereas others demonstrated a higher level of complexity in either physical discipline, subtlety and flexability, or in number of techniques taught as part of the system, and their interaction into a form or fighting sequence.

And, with that all being said, complexity isn't directly related to effectiveness, perhaps even inversely...but effectiveness isn't the whole story

What makes it interesting is when complex things get simple.

Karate styles were simplified and codified across many teachers and sub styles to bring consistency and confederation.

Wu shu, judo and Tae Kwon Do were likewise codified and simplified to meet sporting applications.

Some people will agree that Wing Chun was created to quickly and covertly train up an army of revolutionaries...

Military arts in the north, standardised to be taught across the ranks.

And then you have the family arts in the south to buck the trend.




The whole thing is, you if train for war, you don't need complexity, you need applicable skills for warring.

If you train to fight in a fighting ring, you need to know how to fight in a ring, with rules and gloves and good strategy.

But when it comes to art, complexity is good for self expression. I guess, ...

When we are thinking of "martial arts" isn't there many sides to concider? And fighting, is only one of those many sides.

I think people will neglect the fighting aspect very often, but what is becoming equally as common, is people focusing on the fighting and forgetting about everything else.
....

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I heard one time GDA headbutted a ram so hard, it offered him oral sex and a turkey-on-wheat sandwich.

True story.

in the ram's defence i had just had my way with its mother.