Misconceptions You are Cured Of

[SimonM]

Life is a process of learning.

Sometimes what we learn is that what we thought we knew was wrong.

What have you learned you were wrong about?

I'll start: I used to be a bit... well... more like Uki than I now am.

At that time I believed, against all evidence that Qi was real and came up with all sorts of pseudo-scientific rationalizaitons for it.

Then, as I got older and more experienced, I realized I had been wrong.

Qi, whether you believe it to be the mystical jedi force or simply a projection of a mystical immortal soul does not exist.

Those things explained by qi are better explained by other, more rational, explainations.

So that is what I was wrong about - in the martial arts realm.

What about you?

PS: Please keep this martial arts related.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm, that's a toughie...

First off I learned that no style is an island and that if one truly wanted to be a well rounded MA one must study various specializations.
In regards to chi and "internal energy", I have learned ( at this stage anyways) that "co-ordinated energy" ie: total body mechanics, is one version of "chi" and I have learned that the bio-electical field all living creatures have is another.
Perhaps.
I was wrong about the value of grappling, and I was right.
I was wrong about Dim Mak, and I was right.
I was right about how crucial sparring and fighting are in the development of a fighter, BUT I was wrong in regards to how crucial that are in the continuing development of a MA.

Just to name a few...

[lkfmdc]

Once upon a time, I believed I could fly, I believed I could touch the sky, I flew up so very high, but the sun melted my winds, and I fell to earth.......

pass to the left hand side

[Crushing Step]

I used to think (because I was taught this way) that if my TKD kicks were strong enough and fast enough, then grappling of any kind was unnecessary.

I never believed that "90% of street fights go to the ground", but at least I haven't heard that in at least five years.

[SimonM]

90% of street fights end in the position where the stronger, faster, meaner and better skilled fighter wants them to end.

[SPJ]

I used to think only the bad guys resort to violences to get what they want.

I used to think good guys no need to fight. and good guys win all the time.

--

now I know that bad guys would trick you first, if all fail then they fight. if first sign of trouble, they flee the scene.

now I know good guys have to fight, too, and not necessarily win all time.

--

now I realize that no matter how good your fighting skills are, you still need tactics and strategy. such as run away if you are outnumbered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRf-pgT1OJ8&feature=related

steven chow believed that he may win over several big boys, apparently, he may not.

--

to know our limits or weakness is as much as important as learning and gaining some skill of fighting.

oh

in the movie, steven failed miserably in trying to be a bully, I meant he really sucks big time to be a bad guy. something bad happened to him everytime he tried to do be a bad guy. I laughed so hard.

--

It really takes goodness from others to bring back goodness that we have all along in each and one of us.

--

:D;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

90% of street fights end in the position where the stronger, faster, meaner and better skilled fighter wants them to end.

Sig worthy dude, sig worthy.

[SimonM]

bows Thank you, thank you, hold the applause, just throw money. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

bows Thank you, thank you, hold the applause, just throw money. :p

Better than money:

[SimonM]

LOL! I'll check it out when I get home from practice tonight.

[naja]

Better than money:

:eek::eek:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I used to think that people who made a good living teaching Kung-Fu/martial arts either had to;

1) have bad martial arts
2) become a sell out

Nothing could be further from the truth. Do some people fit this criteria? yes, of course. But there are lots that don't.

I used to think that Kung-Fu had all the groundfighting you needed to fight a grappler.

You need to have some BJJ experience today; too many people know it.

I used to think that all the Chinese teachers in NYC/San Francisco Chinatown must be awesome at Kung-Fu.

Some are. More are not.

[uki]

Life is a process of learning.yet once a being reaches the inflection point, life is a process of remembering.


Sometimes what we learn is that what we thought we knew was wrong.still worried about what is right and what is wrong...


What have you learned you were wrong about?what have you been right about?


I'll start: I used to be a bit... well... more like Uki than I now am.let me guess... you grew up; not all flowers bloom at the same time, nor do they bear the same flowers.


At that time I believed, against all evidence that Qi was real and came up with all sorts of pseudo-scientific rationalizaitons for it.yet you could not grasp the concept of something existing without some form of tangible proof... lack of faith.


Then, as I got older and more experienced, I realized I had been wrong.you allowed popular belief and thought models to mold a wall around your mind.


Qi, whether you believe it to be the mystical jedi force or simply a projection of a mystical immortal soul does not exist.which is most likely why your life might adequately be described as rather... boring?


Those things explained by qi are better explained by other, more rational, explainations.you have all the classic symptoms of being afraid of the unknown. if you cannot explain it, you deny it's existence.


So that is what I was wrong about - in the martial arts realm.perhaps, but you've revealed tomes on your self.


What about you?i dunno... what about me?


PS: Please keep this martial arts related.well a martial artist did post it on a martial arts forum board... i am quite sure it will be related to martial arts in some shape or form.

[SPJ]

I used to think you may not do dragon and lion dance on the ice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoxxakfdZc8&feature=related

wow. I was wrong.

:D

[uki]

I used to think you may not do dragon and lion dance on the ice.there is a pond near my house and several large puddles that tend to freeze over... form practice on ice is awesome.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have discovered that all these people who act like they know what they are talking about, just because they do MMA, or have MMA heros are not necessarily right.


Before that, I discovered that Kung Fu, (and I mean REAL kung fu), is not all forms and stances. It's more skill training, and attribute training that is supported by solid fundamental work. The forms were actually taught last back in the days when it was used for real.

I have also learned that people who come from traditional lineages are not necessarily good people. Infact many seem to be total ****s. Some, who have had very famous teachers, and should have solid systems are the biggest ****s of them all.

I learned many MMA people are even worse, especially the lower level guys.

I learned that there really is no MMA vs TMA argument, except for a certain few stuck in 1996

But most of all I learned that fights, challenge matches, and internet arguments generally end in humongous disasters in the parking lots of Masonic temples where even the best looking of the participants comes off as a complete imbecilic, Jerry Springer reject.

[Crushing Step]

I used to be interested in Uki's very long quote-by-line posts, but I got bored.

[uki]

I used to be interested in Uki's very long quote-by-line posts, but I got bored.trust me, there will be more rainbows to be seen... not every rainstorm produces one. :)

[David Jamieson]

guns work quickly when it comes to ending a confrontation.

I used to think that was not true. But in fact, on a large scale, to a small scale, a gun makes a difference. really saves on any sort of protracted violence when used readily and with a purpose.

[uki]

I used to think that was not true. But in fact, on a large scale, to a small scale, a gun makes a difference. really saves on any sort of protracted violence when used readily and with a purpose.on the bright side, they are only as accurate and effective as the person using them...

[cjurakpt]

that threads with titles that end with a preposition will not be tolerated on KFMF...

[Hebrew Hammer]

Better than money:

I think she takes major credit cards....:D

[Hebrew Hammer]

Here are some of my martial misconceptions:

I thought martial arts forums would be place of respectful open minded discussion...although this does occur, I was amazed at the amount of disrespect, name calling, ego driven bullying that goes on in many of these forums.

I once thought that there was a perfect style, or all encompassing art, through my experience style isn't as important as quality of the the instruction.

I also thought I was too big to be an effective practicioner of Kung Fu, it was for little quick guys and Sammo Hung. I was completely impressed with how vast, diverse, and well rounded Choy Lee Fut/Chi Kung is...I could practice it for many years and feel I had much to learn. It also made me more nimble, flexible, and fit.

I once thought that BJJ was overrated, and although I'm doing MMA now, I still think it is.

[David Jamieson]

Here are some of my martial misconceptions:

I thought martial arts forums would be place of respectful open minded discussion...although this does occur, I was amazed at the amount of disrespect, name calling, ego driven bullying that goes on in many of these forums.

I once thought that there was a perfect style, or all encompassing art, through my experience style isn't as important as quality of the the instruction.

I also thought I was too big to be an effective practicioner of Kung Fu, it was for little quick guys and Sammo Hung. I was completely impressed with how vast, diverse, and well rounded Choy Lee Fut/Chi Kung is...I could practice it for many years and feel I had much to learn. It also made me more nimble, flexible, and fit.

I once thought that BJJ was overrated, and although I'm doing MMA now, I still think it is.

never mind the forums, have you been to the inside of a martial arts school lately?
I would say that many, if not a great deal of us are driven by ego as opposed to altruism. And what is martiality anyways but an attempt to put to heel those who would oppose you?

How does one practice martial arts in an environment of congenialty and tea parties anyway.

good swords are forged in the hottest fires. :)

[SimonM]

Here are some of my martial misconceptions:

I thought martial arts forums would be place of respectful open minded discussion...although this does occur, I was amazed at the amount of disrespect, name calling, ego driven bullying that goes on in many of these forums.



You forgot: this is the internet.



I also thought I was too big to be an effective practicioner of Kung Fu, it was for little quick guys and Sammo Hung.


ROTFL! I love Sammo!

[MightyB]

I have discovered that all these people who act like they know what they are talking about, just because they do MMA, or have MMA heros are not necessarily right.


Before that, I discovered that Kung Fu, (and I mean REAL kung fu), is not all forms and stances. It's more skill training, and attribute training that is supported by solid fundamental work. The forms were actually taught last back in the days when it was used for real.

I have also learned that people who come from traditional lineages are not necessarily good people. Infact many seem to be total ****s. Some, who have had very famous teachers, and should have solid systems are the biggest ****s of them all.

I learned many MMA people are even worse, especially the lower level guys.

I learned that there really is no MMA vs TMA argument, except for a certain few stuck in 1996

But most of all I learned that fights, challenge matches, and internet arguments generally end in humongous disasters in the parking lots of Masonic temples where even the best looking of the participants comes off as a complete imbecilic, Jerry Springer reject.

I actually agree with RD 100%:eek::eek::eek:

WTF is wrong with me lately...

[Becca]

Life is a process of learning.

Sometimes what we learn is that what we thought we knew was wrong.

What have you learned you were wrong about?

I'll start: I used to be a bit... well... more like Uki than I now am.

At that time I believed, against all evidence that Qi was real and came up with all sorts of pseudo-scientific rationalizaitons for it.

Then, as I got older and more experienced, I realized I had been wrong.

Qi, whether you believe it to be the mystical jedi force or simply a projection of a mystical immortal soul does not exist.

Those things explained by qi are better explained by other, more rational, explainations.

So that is what I was wrong about - in the martial arts realm.

What about you?

PS: Please keep this martial arts related.
Don't be so quick to dismiss another's ideas just because you once held them, then discarded them as "wrong."

Mortal soul (http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/2008/08/mortal-soul.html)

But we never leave our past completely behind, nor should we necessarily. It is our respective pasts that make us who we are, that shape our individuality. From those youthful days of the soul afire I retain a sense of mystery, a sense that even in the light of science we see as through a glass darkly. I remain at this late stage in my life the loving pursuer who listens -- listens to the still, small voice in the great silence.

[SimonM]

But my cold, rational paradigm of a constantly changing universe governed by indifferent chaotic events is so TRUE!

[Becca]

for now.... who knows what 'truth" you will come to realize in a few more years or decades.

[SimonM]

That's part of the beauty of a paradigm that denies that anything is eternal. :D

[Becca]

So you are not a big fan of metaphysics? Pondering posibilities simply because they are out ther to be pondered? I personnal can waist hours pondering the idea that quantam physics and old religion are actually closely related. That what our ansestor called qi, the mortal soal, or countless other things, were really just horrible atempts of very briliant people to explain ideas they didn't have words for. So..... if that was the case, then maybe qi is real, just badly explained by someone so far dead and gone that he can't bith slap you for mis understaning it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So you are not a big fan of metaphysics? Pondering posibilities simply because they are out ther to be pondered? I personnal can waist hours pondering the idea that quantam physics and old religion are actually closely related. That what our ansestor called qi, the mortal soal, or countless other things, were really just horrible atempts of very briliant people to explain ideas they didn't have words for. So..... if that was the case, then maybe qi is real, just badly explained by someone so far dead and gone that he can't bith slap you for mis understaning it.

Time well wasted ??
:confused:

[Becca]

Time well wasted ??
:confused:
LOL! Of course it is wasted; I can't put food on the table with it; no one want's to hear what I think, let alone pay me for it.:D


But I'm fundamentally a happy person and most of my detractors are not... I must be getting something right, even if not my hypothyses.;):)

[SimonM]

So you are not a big fan of metaphysics? Pondering posibilities simply because they are out ther to be pondered? I personnal can waist hours pondering the idea that quantam physics and old religion are actually closely related. That what our ansestor called qi, the mortal soal, or countless other things, were really just horrible atempts of very briliant people to explain ideas they didn't have words for. So..... if that was the case, then maybe qi is real, just badly explained by someone so far dead and gone that he can't bith slap you for mis understaning it.

Actually I spent a long time studying metaphysics.

And in the end came to the conclusion that, based on my study, most of it was total bunk. :D

It's still interesting to study but now my focus has shifted to asking why we, as a species, love to delude ourselves.

[Kevin Huang]

One major misconception that I used to have was that martial artists who talked smack at others were the same ones with great ability and who could kick butt.

Now I realize that the really dangerous martial artists don't make a lot of noise. They just do what they have to do in an efficient way.

[unkokusai]

One major misconception that I used to have was that martial artists who talked smack at others were the same ones with great ability and who could kick butt.

Now I realize that the really dangerous martial artists don't make a lot of noise. They just do what they have to do in an efficient way.



Let me guess: You consider yourself someone who doesn't "make a lot of noise."


:rolleyes:

[Kevin Huang]

Nope.

I make my share of noise - just as you do.

[Becca]

Actually I spent a long time studying metaphysics.

And in the end came to the conclusion that, based on my study, most of it was total bunk. :D

It's still interesting to study but now my focus has shifted to asking why we, as a species, love to delude ourselves.
LOL! That is still metaphysics, as it is philosophical and philosophy is a branch of metaphysics.

[SimonM]

One major misconception that I used to have was that martial artists who talked smack at others were the same ones with great ability and who could kick butt.

Now I realize that the really dangerous martial artists don't make a lot of noise. They just do what they have to do in an efficient way.

This is keeping in mind that you have talked as much smack as just about anyone else I've ever seen...

And I'd be more likely to say that metaphysics, along with ethics, logic and a few other disciplines were sub-divisions of Philosophy.

[Becca]

Ok, I just googled it; mataphysics does seem to be considered by most to be a branch of philosophy and by some as a branch of science. I have found something I was once wrong about. Therefore I am staying on topic.;):D

[SimonM]

Rotflmfao :D

[MasterKiller]

Ok, I just googled it; mataphysics does seem to be considered by most to be a branch of philosophy and by some as a branch of science. I have found something I was once wrong about. Therefore I am staying on topic.;):D

I was wrong about thinking Becca would post pictures of herself in her flag girl uniform...

[Becca]

even after I told you I never would.:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I used to think that people on kung fu boards who post about how they'd stop a grappler would at least recognize basic wrestling terms. Boy, I was wrong on that one! :D

I used to think Chinese martial arts was about fighting, but so many people on the internet insist it is about health and being spiritual that I learned my lesson!

I used to think Master Killer was a pastey white guy but......... uh, well.......

[MasterKiller]

I used to think Master Killer was a pastey white guy but......... uh, well.......

MK's stock comes from the Highlands of Scotland, where pasty is the highest of compliments.

[lkfmdc]

It is a very effective martial tool, blinding your opponents ;)

[MasterKiller]

It is a very effective martial tool, blinding your opponents ;)

My ivory reflection is only suprassed by my rugged good looks, in that regard.

[unkokusai]

Ok, I just googled it; mataphysics does seem to be considered by most to be a branch of philosophy



You had to 'google' that?

[SaintSage]

Too many people think of New Age (or New Thought) when they hear metaphysics. It's a branch of academic philosophy but now it's what bookstores call New Thought books.

[SimonM]

IIRC Metaphysics was actually just the stuff that came in the chapter after physics in Aristotle's works. :p

That being said it is the branch of philosophy that ponders questions related to the fundamental basis of reality.

[cjurakpt]

metaphysics is a fancy name for all the stuff that, unlike actual physics, cannot be subjected to relatively objective verification (theism), and can therefore be bandied about without ever having any fear of actually being disproved (kinda like TCMA's being "t3h d3dly")

as far as "qi" belonging to this, I would say that "qi" is not metaphysics, it's metaphor; in other words, having observed the patterns function of the human organism within its environment, both in health and in disease, and having understood the mutual nature of mutual interdependency both within the body (e.g. - various organ systems), within "nature" and between man and "nature", and realizing that the degree of predictability of diagnosis and prognosis, one might then come up with a descriptor of these interrelationships, to better describe the multi-factorial "cause / effect" paradigm upon which TCM theory / practice is built; "qi" works as a concept, not because it is a distinct "thing", but exactly the opposite - because it is not! it is a set of functional life-related principles that constitutes a framework (matrix, lattice) upon which the various observed phenomena may be organized and associated in order to understand what is going on, what will happen if things progress unabated, and how things might be changed to avoid failure of the system if that is the likely end result; OTOH, if "qi" were simply some sort of actual "force", like electromagnetism, or heat, that would limit its utility - whereas, in fact, electromagnetism, heat, etc. are all observable phenomena that are involved in the functional processes that make up "qi"; so when you say you are doing something "internally" and feel the "qi" moving, what you are experiencing is the "sensation" of for example, the autonomic nervous system "working" on heart rate, respiration, temperature regulation, muscle tone (skeletal and visceral), neuro-endocrine function, etc.; which you can also identify as such, but since "back then" they didn't have the technology to assess things the way we do now, those sorts of "strange' sensations, would be categorized according to what was available at the time, and Taoist "science" being the modality available, that's what was used (similarly, even today, most TCMA folks lack actual anatomical / physiological knowledge, and so have no other methodology with which to describe what they are experiencing, and so they use "qi" as a convenient label for that experience - of course, they are the same one to tell you with absolute certainty that what the feel is definitely beyond the realm of described physiological function, when in fact they have no idea that subjecting the ANS to "traditional" types of breath control practice can lead to exactly what they are feeling)

[Yum Cha]

I have to admit, in the last 5 years or so playing in Gene's House, I really have learned a bit about Martial Arts. More than just historical tid bits and gossip about the industry. I never thought I would admit it, but it has improved some of my skills by removing some misconceptions.

Now, keeping in mind I try to be a renaissance man of sorts, and thus, my perspective covers more than just martial issues...

Concerning the forum:
What people write means nothing, as they change opinions depending on the nature of the argument, time of day, phase of moon, team strategy. Its all about the Avatar and Message line beneath. That's how you look into their soul. Truth.

Post count is directly related to waistline measurement. (at least in my case)

Westerners have a way romanticised view of Eastern martial arts, and Easterners work it.

Easterners have a way romanticised view of Western martial arts, and Westerners work it.

Martial arts reflects your character, your character doesn't reflect your martial art.

Nobody understands chi but me, and I ain't tellin! But I will make my fingers smoke for you for a dollar...

Never assume that a total wank of a principle or concept might prove to be unbelievable by a martial arts fan boy with visions of Bruce Lee caterwalling in his head.

A martial artist with a sense of humour is more dangerous than one without.

About Martial arts:
You can't afford not to understand grappling these days, if you want to be a highly skilled fighter.

Random violence is seldom perpetrated by skilled fighters and often starts unprovoked from a blind side.

Spirit can be trained, its not just natural.

People who have REALLY hurt people in informal or street situations don't like to talk about it.

Size, strength and spirit make a big difference over skill alone.

Strategy trumps the lot.

Full contact fighting is a simple sport, with simple rules, fought by simple men.

[Becca]

You had to 'google' that?Yes; some of us don't pretend to know everything.

[SimonM]

In my case post count is diametrically opposed to work load at work. I'm tied to a desk. When I have little to do at work I post more. When I'm busy I post less. Notice 95% of my posts are between 9 and 5 Eastern Standard Time, Monday to Friday.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ne too, I am never on the net at home or after work, that's training and family time.

[MasterKiller]

yes; some of us don't pretend to know everything.

zing !

[SimonM]

When I'm on the net / computer at home it's either when I'm working on my book, my job hunt or my co-op news letter. Regardless I'm not goofing off on KFM.com

[unkokusai]

Yes; some of us don't pretend to know everything.

You're doing a great job.

[SimonM]

Here is a new one for me:

Pulling an opponent down to your chest when they are high in your guard is a good idea.

Learned recently that this was not true. Shedding that misconception has already, in a single day, improved my ground game. :D

[MasterKiller]

Here is a new one for me:

Pulling an opponent down to your chest when they are high in your guard is a good idea.

Learned recently that this was not true. Shedding that misconception has already, in a single day, improved my ground game. :D

Well, that is a good idea if you are striking. Not always so good if you are wrestling.

[SimonM]

And I've been doing mostly wrestling lately. ;)

[MightyB]

Here is a new one for me:

Pulling an opponent down to your chest when they are high in your guard is a good idea.

Learned recently that this was not true. Shedding that misconception has already, in a single day, improved my ground game. :D

what'd he do? Stack ya, or pass?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is a new one for me:

Pulling an opponent down to your chest when they are high in your guard is a good idea.

Learned recently that this was not true. Shedding that misconception has already, in a single day, improved my ground game. :D

Remember what a "transition" move is and don't get stuck there.
Too many think that a tranisition move is a place for them to lollygag around.

[SimonM]

Spun around, passing guard and laying back into an arm bar... twice in a row.

But I seem to have fixed that problem for the most part by learning some arm bar escapes. ;)

[unkokusai]

And I've been doing mostly wrestling lately. ;)



Good for you!

[uki]

Good for you!atleast if you are adding posts to your total, make them worthwhile and interesting to read... so far you have been a bit drab lately... did the girlfriend leave you?:D

[unkokusai]

atleast if you are adding posts to your total, make them worthwhile and interesting to read... so far you have been a bit drab lately... did the girlfriend leave you?:D



Shut your cliche-spewing hole, you worthless LARPing little puke.

[uki]

Shut your cliche-spewing hole, you worthless LARPing little puke.i think there are still some misconceptions you need to be cured of yet...

[unkokusai]

You're doing nothing to dispel them.

[SimonM]

Let's be fair unkokusai, if Uki really is a mason he's probably not little.

So he's a cliche-spewing, worthless, LARPing, big puke. :p

[naja]

I've recently been cured of the misconception that kung fu has any type of grappling defense.

Now I train judo. :D

[bawang]

i realize now a lot of sifus teach for money in north america so soft weak people can imitate kung fu movies, before i thought it was because they want to spread justice and chinese culture.

[IronWeasel]

I've recently been cured of the misconception that kung fu has any type of grappling defense.

Now I train judo. :D



Judo? Isn't judo derived from Shuai Chiao (which is kunfg fu) ?

[TenTigers]

I used to believe the myth that the bad guys won't devote the time that it takes to really learn Martial Arts.("Good will always triumph over evil")
The harsh reality is, I have met some real psychopaths with a total disregard for human life and have no qualms, so second thought to unleashing on someone, with absolutley no remorse, and these people had some of the best skill, power and technique. Why not? Someone who spends eight hours a day training, popping percs and juicing is pretty unbalanced to begin with.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to believe the myth that the bad guys won't devote the time that it takes to really learn Martial Arts.("Good will always triumph over evil")
The harsh reality is, I have met some real psychopaths with a total disregard for human life and have no qualms, so second thought to unleashing on someone, with absolutley no remorse, and these people had some of the best skill, power and technique. Why not? Someone who spends eight hours a day training, popping percs and juicing is pretty unbalanced to begin with.

When you picture a "worse-case-scenario" in your mind while training, and you SHOULD do that, that is the attacker you show train for.

[naja]

Judo? Isn't judo derived from Shuai Chiao (which is kunfg fu) ?

Can't tell if your joking or not......

Just in case you're not: http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can't tell if your joking or not......

Just in case you're not: http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm

Well, it is an accepted "possiblity" that perhaps the original JJ was based on Shuai Chiao or some from of CMA.
But I think that it is safe to say that it is probably japanese.
Every country had its native grappling art, it didn't need to borrow it from any other country, though I am sure that they picked up a few things here and there.

[SimonM]

With the exception of <snip> the Samurai sword

Um... well... that actually did come from China (although via Korea).

[sanjuro_ronin]

With the exception of Shinto and the Samurai sword I can't think of anything known as "Japanese" that didn't first come directly form China. Kimonos, traditional houses and gardens, music, sumo wrestling, drumming, tea ceremony, Zen, Medicine, astrology, silk, karate, Reiki, shiatsu, acupuncture, strategy nearly all of it is Chinese.

As for jujisu, China can't claim it so much as Mongolia.

Shuai Chiao was in China, but when the Mongolians came through in the Yuan dynasty it became developed to a higher level. The mongolians were a war machine and generals were chosen in part on their wrestling ability. This advancement via cultural diffusion then spread into Japan just as it was heavily influencing Chinese arts of the time.

www.imperialtao.com

I have no doubt that it influnced JJ, but created from that?
Every culture has a grappling system in its history, Japan is no different.

[Pork Chop]

I used to think that just because Chinese influenced something early on & laid claim to it that it meant that the Chinese version was somehow superior.
I mean seriously, the kimono?

The spanish may have influenced new world textiles roughly 500 years ago, but you don't see them using that as an excuse to claim the work of south-american crafts(wo)men as merely a facsimile of their own culture.

I really did used to think asian arts & culture were better than my own - specifically Chinese. Not that I didn't appreciate my german-irish heritage; but I figured stuff from China was the penultimate of intelligent design & combat ability. (They've been doing these styles for thousands of years right?)

I thought if I just did enough forms enough times, becoming a great fighter would just magically happen. I even used to look down on a lot of Okinawan & Japanese culture because I bought into the Chinese line of "we were first, we are better".
Then I realized it was just a good sales job; especially after some experiences with people who (if they'd been white) would probably be prone to wearing hoods.

These days I realize demonstrated skill is much more important than boasting a great lineage or a pure style.

I realize that the "brawling" of japanese/okinawan/thai/western fight sports is more effective for handling myself when stuff gets rough than training forms with intricate techniques that require a matrix-level of ability at stopping time.

I realize that having a big name is no guarantee of skill - I'd gladly pick up fighting tricks from my Okinawan (soon-to-be) wife's uncle (a policeman & full contact karate champ) before any other big name kung fu person.

I used to think there was such thing as fighting with purely principles - that honing tools was just low level stuff.

I used to think if someone just did their kung fu long & hard enough (taking the long way around) they could eventually reach a higher level of fighting than even the higher level mma pros - i now know this to be patently false.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to think that just because Chinese influenced something early on & laid claim to it that it meant that the Chinese version was somehow superior.
I mean seriously, the kimono?

The spanish may have influenced new world textiles roughly 500 years ago, but you don't see them using that as an excuse to claim the work of south-american crafts(wo)men as merely a facsimile of their own culture.

I really did used to think asian arts & culture were better than my own - specifically Chinese. Not that I didn't appreciate my german-irish heritage; but I figured stuff from China was the penultimate of intelligent design & combat ability. (They've been doing these styles for thousands of years right?)

I thought if I just did enough forms enough times, becoming a great fighter would just magically happen. I even used to look down on a lot of Okinawan & Japanese culture because I bought into the Chinese line of "we were first, we are better".
Then I realized it was just a good sales job; especially after some experiences with people who (if they'd been white) would probably be prone to wearing hoods.

These days I realize demonstrated skill is much more important than boasting a great lineage or a pure style.

I realize that the "brawling" of japanese/okinawan/thai/western fight sports is more effective for handling myself when stuff gets rough than training forms with intricate techniques that require a matrix-level of ability at stopping time.

I realize that having a big name is no guarantee of skill - I'd gladly pick up fighting tricks from my Okinawan (soon-to-be) wife's uncle (a policeman & full contact karate champ) before any other big name kung fu person.

I used to think there was such thing as fighting with purely principles - that honing tools was just low level stuff.

I used to think if someone just did their kung fu long & hard enough (taking the long way around) they could eventually reach a higher level of fighting than even the higher level mma pros - i now know this to be patently false.

Excellent post.

[SimonM]

Good post. But it doesn't change the fact that there is a traceable tradition of single-edged sabre construction flowing through eastern china into Korea and then Japan where it was refined to the "samurai sword". ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good post. But it doesn't change the fact that there is a traceable tradition of single-edged sabre construction flowing through eastern china into Korea and then Japan where it was refined to the "samurai sword". ;)

The Katana was/is a better sword.
:p

There is probably a tracebale tradition of how the curves sword came to Korea too, or it may have have just "happened".

[Pork Chop]

Good post. But it doesn't change the fact that there is a traceable tradition of single-edged sabre construction flowing through eastern china into Korea and then Japan where it was refined to the "samurai sword". ;)

And they had the same technique of folding the metal that has put Japanese sword tradition up there with Damascus steel as the most finely crafted weapons in the word? ;)

They've had single-bladed sabres since the Hyksos were rocking them in 16th century BC; without the smithing methods, they're still not samurai swords.

[Lucas]

what about the forging methods. isnt the evidence of ancient chinese forgers using folding methods similar to what is seen in highly skilled japanese forgers? i think i remember reading about this in a KFM sword special.

something about how a lot of these methods were lost to chinese forgers, however when they were still in use they predated the japanese.

i cant rememer exactly, i would have to dig up the issue.

[SimonM]

I did read that article too but I lost the issue it was in. :(

The "lost technology" trope is one I am always dubious of. There are some examples of highly developed forging technology in the ming and qing dynasty available for view but that is not old enough to support the suggestion of folded forging in the correct time frame.

There is, however, strong evidence of high-tech metallurgy using a casting method such as this item. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian) I have been in the same room as this sword, close enough to touch it...

If not for the glass...
And the armed guards...
And the cameras...

It is a thing of beauty, the photograph doesn't do it justice. It's still sharp!

(I saw it in the Beijing national museum. I guess it was on loan from the Hubei museum.)

[Lucas]

wow. that is one pretty war sword....

do they hand out bibs for all the drool a the museum doors?

edit:

'almost airtight scabbard'

thats sick

[SimonM]

wow. that is one pretty war sword....

do they hand out bibs for all the drool a the museum doors?

edit:

'almost airtight scabbard'

thats sick

When it was at the museum in Beijing the only people looking at it were me, my wife, an archaeology prof and a student accompanying him. The prof in question was going on at length about how it was a ceremonial sword that would never have been used (due to it's excellent condition). My thoughts: pity...

[Lucas]

When it was at the museum in Beijing the only people looking at it were me, my wife, an archaeology prof and a student accompanying him. The prof in question was going on at length about how it was a ceremonial sword that would never have been used (due to it's excellent condition). My thoughts: pity...

word. kinda makes you want to cry

[Ray Pina]

I used to think this is true... and that is bull****. Now I only think about what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about it. And that is rare.

[TenTigers]

uhhh...I think what he thinks.

[IronWeasel]

Can't tell if your joking or not......

Just in case you're not: http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm


No, I was serious. (for once)

I read it somewhere that a shuai chiao practitioner went to Japan and trained three (four) students who passed the teachings along and developed it into Judo. The article even named the instructor and students.

I'll see if I can find a reference.

[naja]

No, I was serious. (for once)

I read it somewhere that a shuai chiao practitioner went to Japan and trained three (four) students who passed the teachings along and developed it into Judo. The article even named the instructor and students.

I'll see if I can find a reference.

Kano developed judo from Japanese jujitsu..maybe you're thinking that the Chinese brought jujitsu, in an early form, to Japan?

[IronWeasel]

Kano developed judo from Japanese jujitsu..maybe you're thinking that the Chinese brought jujitsu, in an early form, to Japan?



"Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido. "


http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/history.html

This is not the source I was thinking of, but it is mentioned briefly here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido. "


http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/history.html

This is not the source I was thinking of, but it is mentioned briefly here.

I am sure it INFLUENCED JJ, if it happened.
To think that there was NO grappling before that is not logical.

[naja]

I am sure it INFLUENCED JJ, if it happened.
To think that there was NO grappling before that is not logical.

yea, I'm skeptical of it as well.

[SimonM]

Ditto.

We recently discussed this on another thread but I think it bears repeating:

Martial Arts predate civilization. People were wrestling, using spears (both melee, thrown and using the atlatl) and shooting bows before they were building permanent settlements. It's probably safe to say, at this point in time, that everywhere's martial arts has had an influence on everywhere else's martial arts. But for any one place to be set forth as the origin... just foolish.

[uki]

But for any one place to be set forth as the origin... just foolish.i dunno... damo always said mind is the path... that seems pretty a singular place to originate a martial art from... eh? :D

[David Jamieson]

That sword looks like a gladius.
very cool.

btw and fwiw, not so long ago tests were carried out using an english broadsword and a katana.

Neither showed significant advantage over the other and both were effective and highly so at all duties ascribed to a sword.

the whole "a katana is superior" thing was promptly dashed as myth and sales pitch.

Although, I must say that katanas are very finely crafted, at least teh for real ones are, but then, swords of high quality come in all shapes and from most cultures that fashioned them.

Having said that, given a choice, I would take a gladius as a sword on any given day and a claymore on the following day with wu dip do as a weekend thing. lol

[SimonM]

When you say broadsword do you mean a BROADSWORD (single-edged straight sword with a basket hilt) a LONGSWORD (anorexic Claymore) or an ARMING SWORD (one-handed two-edged sword with a cruciform guard).

The arming sword is my fave... or equivalent jian (as they were simmilar). They balance speed with reach well. Gladius is too stubby. Claymore much too slow (except for the 17th century onward basket-hilted claymore, those rock).

[sanjuro_ronin]

In terms of swords and their myths:

http://www.amazon.com/MYTH-OF-THE-SWORD/dp/B000TGSQGU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1226506185&sr=8-3

[SimonM]

Want that book..... :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Want that book..... :D

DVD is cool, highly recommend it.

[SimonM]

Oh, its a DVD... still want it. :D

(Can't access Amazon.com from work. Basically I have this, skepticmagazine.com, wikipedia and (for some reason) the paranoid conspiracy sites tht Uki posts links to.)