The state of Chinese martial arts

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!


This is not an insult!



This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?



Thank you

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can fall back on the view that you mat have had bad teachers or the view that your teachers wanted you to learn how to apply the forms yourself.
We can also remember that forms are NOT dancing.
Fact is, while forms serve a purpose, unless they are taught in a practical way they can't be used for fighting unless you are a highly skilled and gift fighter from the very beginning.
Some people can just make anything work.

However, the easiest and best way to learn how to fight is, by fighting in some for or another.
Many of the typical applications of forms don't work at all, simply because more often than not, they are not drilled correctly.
Many teachers teach horrific applications.

[Water Dragon]

About time we had an original topic around here.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!


This is not an insult!



This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?



Thank you

Reply]
I think you are living in 1997, or whenever it is you posted this EXACT SAME POST, Word for word.

Since then, MMA has really revived an interest in fighting skill through out all styles, including Kung Fu. San Shou is growing, and all sorts of other fighting venues are growing as well.

Because of this, Kung Fu schools are spending more time teaching the fighting of thier styles and slowly reverting back to the Old school ways of function first, flash is an after thought.

Now, what I think is a much more important question, is how is it I can remember some post, written word for word form like 10 years ago, but I can't remember something I have to remember from yesterday?

Also, why is it I never remember to spell remember with the second "M"? Must Spell check allways belittle me with that??

[xcakid]

Forms are for conditioning, coordination, and balance. Unfortunately they have not been updated to deal in todays society. 50% of the forms out there still has defenses against staff, spear, swords and such. They are also good for keeping up tradition. Having said that, there still applications in forms that can be usefull in todays situations. So they can not and should not be discounted altogether. Dao forms can also be easily adapted to a baseball bat. Staff forms can still be used as is. Many open hand forms uses Chin Na applications in a more dynamic and practical application.

I have said this before on this forum and will continue to say it. Chinese martial arts stopped evolving with the times. CMA use to be in the forefront of fighting and weapons development. It got left behind.

I halfway kid when people ask me if I would use CMA in a real fight. My response is: "CMA is for training, conditioning and fun. A gun is what I use for self defense. "

My true vision of MMA = CMA, Arnis, and Tactical Shooting both CQB and Long range. :p

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Forms are for recording the system, and training mechanics to an advanced level more than anything else. all the other attributes are side effects.

[mawali]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!

This is not an insult!

This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?

Thank you

The "modern" do not have a clue so they fall for anything becasue it was said by the teacher and they are led like sheep to open their pocketbook and they like it.

I wish I had that kind of persuasion on my students but it is not nice so I refuse to do it. So much for wude! As I said previously, wude of the past is dead and has been for awhile and I say the few excellent teachers are just that. They tell the truth and they are villified! Dig that!

Let's not forget that this is USA. Economics rule in kungfu and wall street fu!

[mkriii]

Dear all,

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?

Thank you

Maybe its because they don't know the application themselves or maybe its to make the student think a little harder and let him figure it out on his own. My teacher taught the applications to almost all the techniques in the form but he would let us try and determine what some of the techniques were for on our own. :D

[SimonM]

More likely the teacher doesn't know either.

It's the blind leading the blind.

[MightyB]

Forms can also help to show you the intent of a move or how it's applied. It doesn't mean that the form is the only way to apply the move... at least in Mantis- you go back a couple of movements in the form to understand the set up of a move you want to know more about. For example... you could be stuck on how to apply a knuckle strike to the temple. Find a spot in a form where that move is used. Go back two or three moves and you might see- 1 ou lou choi, 2 tu sau, 3 knuckle strike to the temple. From that you could see how that particular master applied that move. Look at it in the abstract- he set up with a fairly direct attack- the guy must have countered with a side moving block, the master then followed that energy (circle) with the tu sau linked to the hin choi (knuckles to the temple)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, you can get quite a bit of "Insite" to applications by looking at the form as well.

You still need to do all the two man work to develop the skills to use it though

[golden arhat]

i know that forms arent applicable by themselves

but i know that if i happened to learn a jab cross by doing a form i'd probably be able to do it on someone

[iron_leg_dave]

Forms are really useful. Not only do they reveal the styles tactics and techniques, but they are designed in a way to teach you a flavour of rythm and timing, improve your whole body coordination and some postures will let you know how you are doing physically, and what it is you need to work on as far as conditioning your body.

They should retain the essense of the system, like a book for further study, but shouldn't be viewed as the actual system, which is what I think most schools are doing these days: Work out, to do forms better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are really useful. Not only do they reveal the styles tactics and techniques, but they are designed in a way to teach you a flavour of rythm and timing, improve your whole body coordination and some postures will let you know how you are doing physically, and what it is you need to work on as far as conditioning your body.


Teach you rythm and timing to do what ?

[iron_leg_dave]

Move your body through space.

[iron_leg_dave]

You learn "ways" to move your body as you develop, usually from the culture you're a part of. Through relaxing the body completely, and moving through your full range of motion consitently with a certain way of moving, you relearn movement.

That's part of what Wong Kiew Kit meant when he said that forms are the crystalization of thousands of years of practice.

Of course, if your exposure to gong fu is to psuedo martial arts, that wouldn't make sense.

However, the general aim of gong fu is self preservation and expression. Fighting is only part of what "self preservation" entails. Not falling on your head, if you fell out a window, transferring your weight in a more controlled fashion in your daily tasks might be another example.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Move your body through space.

Like a transporter on Star Trek?
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

You learn "ways" to move your body as you develop, usually from the culture you're a part of. Through relaxing the body completely, and moving through your full range of motion consitently with a certain way of moving, you relearn movement.

That's part of what Wong Kiew Kit meant when he said that forms are the crystalization of thousands of years of practice.

Of course, if your exposure to gong fu is to psuedo martial arts, that wouldn't make sense.

However, the general aim of gong fu is self preservation and expression. Fighting is only part of what "self preservation" entails. Not falling on your head, if you fell out a window, transferring your weight in a more controlled fashion in your daily tasks might be another example.

Ah, so it has very little to do with fighting, gotcha.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ah, so it has very little to do with fighting, gotcha.

Reply]
Correct. By the time you even get to forms, you should already be a very good fighter. They are more to put the final polish on the quality of your movement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Correct. By the time you even get to forms, you should already be a very good fighter. They are more to put the final polish on the quality of your movement.

:rolleyes:
I need to work on my internet sarcasam.

[Ray Pina]

As time goes on I see a world of difference between boxing, MMA, kick boxing gyms and schools that revolve around form.

One produces men. The other produces wannabees.

Better to learn your own core basic skills (good striking mechanics, good kicking mechanics, good structure and transitions, some ground) and then shadow box creating your own forms.

[bawang]

hi, most of the good kung fu masters died by the thousands in the 1900 boxer rebellion. kung fu fighters gathered from all over china to join demon slaying movement. sifus brought their entire schools with them. there were people from north to south all gathered together.
then more died in chinese civil war. then more died in cultural revolution. a lot of styles left are performance styles. people keep forgetting this lol.
i dont understand how some amazing kung fu masters whos skill is one out of ten thousand in the wulin have no students and dont want students, and some old opium addict had one of the most popular styles in the whole friggin world and would take anyone.

[Kevin Huang]

students have to be worthy of teachers, and teachers have to be worthy of students.

[unkokusai]

A stitch in time saves nine.



Idiots think spouting banalities is deep. :rolleyes:

[Kevin Huang]

"Idiots think spouting banalities is deep."

Yup. Look at what you just did.

[unkokusai]

Have you been ****zered yet?

[SteveLau]

Why teacher does not need application other than form training? Well, there are several reasons that I have in mind.


1) The teacher has lost interest in teaching martial art a lot.

2) The students are not talented in training.

3) The students does not want to train application like sparring.

4) Not enough incentive like expensive tuition fee.



Before we critisize and blame the teacher, it is good to look from the other side of the coin. What would you do in this and that situation if you were the teacher?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[LoneTiger108]

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?

I'm not so familiar with the more traditional family styles like Hung Kuen and the like, but as far as my Wing Chun forms go and their relationship to actual 'application' I like to think of them as simple sets to remind me where I come from. They return me to the beginning, which is more necessary if you cross-train or develop further methods. I've seen far too many practitioners 'lose themselves' in trying to 'apply' their forms, when some forms are just there for memories sake. All Wing Chun forms are applied every time we move, if that makes any sense? We're a 'free' style, if you like.


That's part of what Wong Kiew Kit meant when he said that forms are the crystalization of thousands of years of practice.

The reasons behind applications not being taught? That's one for the culprits to answer!! Much can be said for the Sifu who is 'choosy', especially if they're from the oldskool themselves. It's not so much 'right or wrong', it's just the way some people believe it is to be done. Without the correct drill and training, application is just a dream.


i dont understand how some amazing kung fu masters whos skill is one out of ten thousand in the wulin have no students and dont want students, and some old opium addict had one of the most popular styles in the whole friggin world and would take anyone.

Although he would 'take anyone' I wouldn't say he actually 'taught everyone'. The addict you describe was a direct product of his generation. A pawn in a very large chess game.

The old masters you mention are still waiting, I presume. For what exactly is anyones guess!

Food for thought... :rolleyes:

[Hitman]

RD'S Alias - 1A
There are still many Chinese martial arts teachers teaching BS Chinese martial arts in London. I was talking to a person last night, who had spent 4 years learning from a tai chi/ chi kung teacher. He told me that he learnt nothing except forms. Based on what he said and showed me, I was very surprised that he and his teacher had not suffered from internal damages due to incorrect chi kung training!

SteveLau


"Before we critisize and blame the teacher, it is good to look from the other side of the coin. What would you do in this and that situation if you were the teacher?"

The question you asked is no different to the problems facing every academic teachers in UK, who have to teach students who just do not want to learnt. Some of those teachers had been:

1) beaten up by 11 - 20 years old
2) raped by 12 years old
3) their cars vandalism by their students
4) threatened by their students and their parents.
5) having their faces and embarrassing moments posted all over the internet & receiving all kind of insults

However, they still have to teach those students, because they cannot find themselves another jobs. I suggest that you ask the professional teachers for advices how to deal with students who just do not want to learnt.

If a martial arts teacher only wants to teach forms, then he/ she should be up front about it.

I had learnt a tai chi form from a tai chi teacher for 3 years. She told me that she only teach forms (on the first day we met), but her former tai chi master know how to use tai chi in combat. However, if I was to attend her master's kung fu classes, he would not only lied to me, but also teaching me total wrong! She had seem he did it to several students he did not like. He was also milking his new students by teaching them BS tai chi and chi kung. He would regarded me as a threat rather than as a student. Despite the fact that she had spent 15 years learning from him, he had taught her very little application in fighting!
I decided to learn from her not because her tai chi skills was great, but because of her honesty.


Lets imagine that you went to a very famous school (martial arts school) to learn German (martial arts). Teachers from other famous schools (martial arts schools) in the area praised your famous headmaster for his teaching skills (fighting skills and teaching skills). Everyone in that school told you that your German was great after 2 & 1/2 years of intensive studying. However, when you went to Germany and try to communicate (fight) with the German people (other people). You suddenly found that no one understand a word what you said or your writing (cannot apply your martial arts in any of the fight). You were then forced to use self created sign languages (self creating kick boxing or fighting like a 5 years old) in order to communicate with the German people. While other people insulted your lack of German (martial arts skills) in front of your face.

Would you still call your German German (martial arts)?
Would you still respect your teachers, classmates and other schools who told you that your German was great (everyone in your martial arts school and other martial arts instructors)?
Would you still go back to that school and learn German from them (martial arts)?

Those are not insults. Those are my experience since I started learning Chinese kung fu!
This is what many Chinese martial arts teachers are doing to their students by teaching them only forms. They then tell them that they can fight!

There are still good Chinese martial arts instructors around, but their number are very small.

I have read two books written by authors who claimed that oriental martial arts were useless based on their experiences of not being able to apply what they learnt in fights. However, their arguments were not convincing.
There is a thread in the "defender forum" several years ago where the author told people to boycott the Chinese martial arts, because it was a waste of time and worthless martial arts. However, he did not giving any example to support his case.

So far no form teacher has replied to my question.

[David Jamieson]

There's still too much face game and cerebral jerking off in a lot of chinese martial arts.

It's unfortunate, but there you have it.

I would say that some people are doing something about it.

some.

[SteveLau]

Hitman,

It is sad to hear about the problems facing MA teachers in the UK. I have learnt from a teacher who was honest right from the start to tell me he would not teach sparring. And I did not blame him. If I were a teacher, I would be that honest too. For instance, if a student is definitely not martial art material, I would tell him to quit directly. At the end, my guess is that like in other field of study, there is good teacher and not so good one.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong