big props to Northern Europes Chan Family CLF

[hskwarrior]

CLF vs. BJJ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MPHySHED8)

i thought the chan family clf cat did pretty **** good. his striking was far superior to that of the bjj dude. but the bjj dude did a good job too.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D60XiaXmN8E&feature=related

I was hoping for a knock out:) Frank who went to thailand and won with CLF according to Mr.Lee?.

[Satori Science]

CLF vs. BJJ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MPHySHED8)

i thought the chan family clf cat did pretty **** good. his striking was far superior to that of the bjj dude. but the bjj dude did a good job too.
Yup brother was looking real solid, mad props!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D60XiaXmN8E&feature=related

I was hoping for a knock out:) Frank who went to thailand and won with CLF according to Mr.Lee?.

They were Bak Hsing fighters their names we Chan Woo Lueng (my Sigung in the Bak Sil Lum) and Lai Hung. Read the interviews Lai Hung Sifu has given, they were extremely well trained fighters who gave made props to the Thai and Cambodian fighters for their power, speed and conditioning. No illusions about easy knock outs.

One.
:cool:

[diego]

Yup brother was looking real solid, mad props!



They were Bak Hsing fighters their names we Chan Woo Lueng (my Sigung in the Bak Sil Lum) and Lai Hung. Read the interviews Lai Hung Sifu has given, they were extremely well trained fighters who gave made props to the Thai and Cambodian fighters for their power, speed and conditioning. No illusions about easy knock outs.

One.
:cool:

Thanks, will look them up:cool:

[hskwarrior]

lai hung is in sacramento....the other.....idk

[Infrazael]

What's the point of fighting a BJJ guy if he's not wearing MMA gear and isn't allowed to fight on the ground . . .

I mean fighting a grappler with standup rules is like taking candy from a baby.

[jow yeroc]

I agree. Not taking anything away from the CLF guy, his stand up was good, but
i didn't see the value of saying clf vs bjj if the bjj guy is not allowed to do bjj.(?)
And he had some good takedowns in the first round that may have been a
determining factor. The second round the clf guy was neutralizing the shoot
a little better with strikes and sprawls. Again, taking nothing away from either
guy, just an observation. But overall a good exhibition, i thought.:cool:

[Eddie]

good fighting, but it was pretty much standard san shou. So I agree, no point in saying BJJ s CLF. Just say san shou.

[hskwarrior]

well, imo, outside of a typical tourney element, at least CLF faired pretty well, i mean the bjj dude kept taking him down until the clf guy just got tired of going down.

second round he (clf) seem to pick it up, and imo did pretty good.

[diego]

lai hung is in sacramento....the other.....idk



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1466817336172334030&q=choy+li+fut&pl=true

@ the four minute mark is that GM Lai Hung with the broadsword?. Dope sifu vid!.

[diego]

Held in Taiwan, the tournament became legendary for its brutality. In those days, a variety of very dangerous techniques were allowed, such as elbow and knee strikes, and fighters wore only thin cotton gloves on their hands. Lai Hung beat all four opponents he faced. At 19, he became instantly famous.

Over the next 12 years, Lai Hung fought full-contact matches all around Asia, including Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan and Cambodia. The fight in Cambodia is especially interesting because it was one of the first times that traditional Chinese martial artists faced "Thai boxing"-style fighters. The kung-fu fighters fared poorly, but it should be noted that they fought under unfamiliar rules and they faced professional kickboxers who trained and fought for a living, while the kung-fu fighters all had day jobs and trained in their free time.

The following is a translation of a newspaper article from the Hong Kong Chien News dated May 18, 1961 detailing the Cambodian event.

"Lai Hung Talks About the Fight in Cambodia"
"Miscommunication leads the referee to declare him the loser".

Lai Hung shook his head when queried by the referee if he was seriously injured. The referee took this to mean he wanted to quit, so the fight was halted.
The seven amateur fighters from Hong Kong returned on the 15th. Their defeat was not unexpected as their motive for competing was simply to gain experience. Now they will analyze their performance so that the Chinese martial arts community can improve. Our reporter had a special interview with fighter Lai Hung yesterday. Mr. Lai talked about his experience fighting Bing Leung.
Mr. Lai teaches Chinese martial arts at the Kowloon Bus Employee's Association, as well as at his own school located at 191 Ching Shan Road. According to Mr. Lai, the Cambodian fighters were all fierce and fast in attack and knew how to use their advantage of ring experience. The kung-fu fighters and Cambodian fighters each had their special techniques, but the Cambodian fighters definitely had superior physical conditioning.

According to Lai, the competition had been in the planning stages for a long time, but for awhile it seemed that it was not going to happen, until suddenly a month ago a notice came from Cambodia informing the Hong Kong fighters that the competition was on. The Cambodian organizers of the event suggested the Hong Kong delegation travel to Cambodia on May 2. The trip was delayed due to visa procedures, so the competition was rescheduled. The fighters from Hong Kong finally boarded a Cathay Pacific flight at 5 p.m. on May 8, and landed about two hours later.

The Hong Kong and Cambodian delegations finally agreed to begin the competition on May 9. The Chinese population in Cambodia was very supportive of this event. They heartily supported the kung-fu fighters.

In the aftermath of the event, and in Lai's analysis of Cambodian boxing, he believes the Hong Kong fighters do not compare to the Cambodians. Although the Cambodians do not train in a traditional martial arts school manner, they are very well-organized. Boxers go through a process of selection and training. They train with iron rods, iron plates, punching bags, and so on. They remain light on their feet, yet can deliver enormous kicking power. Their fingers, fists, elbows, knees and legs can subdue an opponent in one or two moves. Their legs, especially, can attack without warning. Their left-right kicking combination is like two knives chopping from either side.

Bing Leung is a brave, well-known Cambodian boxer

Lai Hung's opponent was Bing Leung, a famous Cambodian boxer. According to Lai, Bing Leung was brave and skillful. Lai said that if the event had been held in Hong Kong, the audience would not be able to watch because of the unbearable brutality of it. Lai Hung and Bing Leung were scheduled to have five three-minute rounds. Lai said his loss was really just a matter of a misunderstanding.

Testing the Waters

According to Lai, in the first round, the two fighters engaged in light contact, trying to feel each other out. Both spent the round testing the water, so to speak.



In the second round, the fighters began to discover each other's technique, so the contact became heavier. Bing Leung started the offensive with a strong punch toward the side of Lai Hung's forehead. Lai sank into a horse stance and hooked Bing's arm with his left hand. As he hooked the arm, he blasted Bing with a right punch. This punch had all of Lai Hung's might, and Bing fell to the canvas immediately after the hit. But then he jumped right back up again. The second round ended shortly after this exchange.

Lai Hung fell into trap His forehead started to bleed

After two minutes of rest, the third round started. Bing Leung came at Lai with a full offense. In this round, he switched to kicking. With just a slight body movement, he was already in the air with a left-right crescent kick. Lai avoided the attack and counterattacked with a choy lay fut strike. This time, Leung fell to the ground and stayed there. He grasped his midsection, showing signs of great pain. Lai Hung felt remorseful for hitting such a vulnerable spot. He actually apologized to Leung. At this point, Leung attacked. One of his techniques cut Lai's forehead. Lai was furious and charged forward, striking Leung heavily. The round ended shortly thereafter.

Lai says, my kick was fast, yet his was faster

As both fighters stepped into the center of the ring for the fourth round, the audience clapped wildly. Bing Leung attacked with a variety of techniques, catching Lai off guard. Lai was overpowered and hit. However, he was not injured. He counterattacked as he had in previous rounds and again knocked Leung to the canvass. As Leung got to his feet, Lai immediately attacked with a flying right kick. Leung was fast and locked up Lai's leg. He pushed Lai against the rope. The referee separated the two and paused to look at Lai's forehead. The referee, worried about Lai's injury, asked him he wanted to continue the fight. Lai misunderstood and shook his head, trying to convey that the injury was not serious. The referee then stopped the fight. He did not announce a winner.

After the fight, Lai Hung told reporters, "It's only a competition. I don't care about winning or losing. Losing does not mean a loss of face. The trip was for experience. My only desire to win would have been to spread the art of kung-fu." He then praised the Cambodian fighters and said he admired their training methods and envied their frequent opportunities for fighting.

[Satori Science]

Held in Taiwan, the tournament became legendary for its brutality. In those days, a variety of very dangerous techniques were allowed, such as elbow and knee strikes, and fighters wore only thin cotton gloves on their hands. Lai Hung beat all four opponents he faced. At 19, he became instantly famous.

Over the next 12 years, Lai Hung fought full-contact matches all around Asia, including Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan and Cambodia. The fight in Cambodia is especially interesting because it was one of the first times that traditional Chinese martial artists faced "Thai boxing"-style fighters. The kung-fu fighters fared poorly, but it should be noted that they fought under unfamiliar rules and they faced professional kickboxers who trained and fought for a living, while the kung-fu fighters all had day jobs and trained in their free time.

The following is a translation of a newspaper article from the Hong Kong Chien News dated May 18, 1961 detailing the Cambodian event.

"Lai Hung Talks About the Fight in Cambodia"
"Miscommunication leads the referee to declare him the loser".

Lai Hung shook his head when queried by the referee if he was seriously injured. The referee took this to mean he wanted to quit, so the fight was halted.
The seven amateur fighters from Hong Kong returned on the 15th. Their defeat was not unexpected as their motive for competing was simply to gain experience. Now they will analyze their performance so that the Chinese martial arts community can improve. Our reporter had a special interview with fighter Lai Hung yesterday. Mr. Lai talked about his experience fighting Bing Leung.
Mr. Lai teaches Chinese martial arts at the Kowloon Bus Employee's Association, as well as at his own school located at 191 Ching Shan Road. According to Mr. Lai, the Cambodian fighters were all fierce and fast in attack and knew how to use their advantage of ring experience. The kung-fu fighters and Cambodian fighters each had their special techniques, but the Cambodian fighters definitely had superior physical conditioning.

According to Lai, the competition had been in the planning stages for a long time, but for awhile it seemed that it was not going to happen, until suddenly a month ago a notice came from Cambodia informing the Hong Kong fighters that the competition was on. The Cambodian organizers of the event suggested the Hong Kong delegation travel to Cambodia on May 2. The trip was delayed due to visa procedures, so the competition was rescheduled. The fighters from Hong Kong finally boarded a Cathay Pacific flight at 5 p.m. on May 8, and landed about two hours later.

The Hong Kong and Cambodian delegations finally agreed to begin the competition on May 9. The Chinese population in Cambodia was very supportive of this event. They heartily supported the kung-fu fighters.

In the aftermath of the event, and in Lai's analysis of Cambodian boxing, he believes the Hong Kong fighters do not compare to the Cambodians. Although the Cambodians do not train in a traditional martial arts school manner, they are very well-organized. Boxers go through a process of selection and training. They train with iron rods, iron plates, punching bags, and so on. They remain light on their feet, yet can deliver enormous kicking power. Their fingers, fists, elbows, knees and legs can subdue an opponent in one or two moves. Their legs, especially, can attack without warning. Their left-right kicking combination is like two knives chopping from either side.

Bing Leung is a brave, well-known Cambodian boxer

Lai Hung's opponent was Bing Leung, a famous Cambodian boxer. According to Lai, Bing Leung was brave and skillful. Lai said that if the event had been held in Hong Kong, the audience would not be able to watch because of the unbearable brutality of it. Lai Hung and Bing Leung were scheduled to have five three-minute rounds. Lai said his loss was really just a matter of a misunderstanding.

Testing the Waters

According to Lai, in the first round, the two fighters engaged in light contact, trying to feel each other out. Both spent the round testing the water, so to speak.



In the second round, the fighters began to discover each other's technique, so the contact became heavier. Bing Leung started the offensive with a strong punch toward the side of Lai Hung's forehead. Lai sank into a horse stance and hooked Bing's arm with his left hand. As he hooked the arm, he blasted Bing with a right punch. This punch had all of Lai Hung's might, and Bing fell to the canvas immediately after the hit. But then he jumped right back up again. The second round ended shortly after this exchange.

Lai Hung fell into trap His forehead started to bleed

After two minutes of rest, the third round started. Bing Leung came at Lai with a full offense. In this round, he switched to kicking. With just a slight body movement, he was already in the air with a left-right crescent kick. Lai avoided the attack and counterattacked with a choy lay fut strike. This time, Leung fell to the ground and stayed there. He grasped his midsection, showing signs of great pain. Lai Hung felt remorseful for hitting such a vulnerable spot. He actually apologized to Leung. At this point, Leung attacked. One of his techniques cut Lai's forehead. Lai was furious and charged forward, striking Leung heavily. The round ended shortly thereafter.

Lai says, my kick was fast, yet his was faster

As both fighters stepped into the center of the ring for the fourth round, the audience clapped wildly. Bing Leung attacked with a variety of techniques, catching Lai off guard. Lai was overpowered and hit. However, he was not injured. He counterattacked as he had in previous rounds and again knocked Leung to the canvass. As Leung got to his feet, Lai immediately attacked with a flying right kick. Leung was fast and locked up Lai's leg. He pushed Lai against the rope. The referee separated the two and paused to look at Lai's forehead. The referee, worried about Lai's injury, asked him he wanted to continue the fight. Lai misunderstood and shook his head, trying to convey that the injury was not serious. The referee then stopped the fight. He did not announce a winner.

After the fight, Lai Hung told reporters, "It's only a competition. I don't care about winning or losing. Losing does not mean a loss of face. The trip was for experience. My only desire to win would have been to spread the art of kung-fu." He then praised the Cambodian fighters and said he admired their training methods and envied their frequent opportunities for fighting.

My brother Brian did that interview/write up with his sifu Lai Hung.
Brian also put out a couple of cool books on the northern shaolin a few years back with his sifu and classmates. One on Sil Lum 6 and a really cool one called Combat Shaolin on Master Ku's two man fighting set.

In any event saying that a BJJ's training is meaning less with gloves on seems to same as saying a CLF guys training is also meaningless as we train for full contact strikes without the restriction of gloves. IMHO that CLF cat would have messed the BJJ guy up pretty nice on a few of those shoots with 5 ounce gloves on.

Also the BJJ seemed to utilize his training nicely in a Sanshou environment

Seems to me training is to Train The Body to manifest fighting ability. Fighting in a ring is goverened by a set of rules in which we must utilize our training to manifest fighting skills.

does some one who only does BJJ cease to be BJJ if he throws a jab?

just a thought,
One.
:cool:

[Infrazael]

Really not taking anything from my CLF brother, he had some nice skills in that ring!

Just saying a MMA format would be a more "fair" comparison, that was more of a standup battle between a good striker, and a good grappler (maybe) who had sh!tty striking skills. :D

I am really curious, they should spar with MMA rules and let the fight go to the ground! And of course I'll always be rooting for my CLF brother regardless!

[Satori Science]

I am really curious, they should spar with MMA rules and let the fight go to the ground! And of course I'll always be rooting for my CLF brother regardless!

Exactly what i was thinking, well said.

[hskwarrior]

satori,

at 2:10 sifu jew is in a cross horse position, spins and hits to two fists one right after the other..........do you have that in your system? and if so, what is it called in chinese?

that lineage is one of the only ones i've seen do it other than ours (Hung Sing).

[hskwarrior]

imho, the clf guy did ok the first round. he was basically feeling him out. but during the second round, you saw him pick up his intensity, a sort of urgency, and his strikes were just as clf should be. i wish he would have pow choy'd like his trainer was telling him, or even use some sow choys. oh well, shoulda coulda woulda.

but, i agree, with 5 oz gloves the clf cat would have caused some damage. but, against the shoot, he did real good after the first round.

[Satori Science]

satori,

at 2:10 sifu jew is in a cross horse position, spins and hits to two fists one right after the other..........do you have that in your system? and if so, what is it called in chinese?

that lineage is one of the only ones i've seen do it other than ours (Hung Sing).

2:10 of what bro?
i'm confused :confused:

[hskwarrior]

oh, sheet. sorrry bro. the video link by diego. sifu jew of the buk sing lineage was performing at that time.

[diego]

oh, sheet. sorrry bro. the video link by diego. sifu jew of the buk sing lineage was performing at that time.


is that lai Hung with the broad swords?.:)

[hskwarrior]

Yeah, lai hung is in a t shirt i think, but is doing double broadswords.

[Satori Science]

can you post up the link again,

if its the video i think Lai Hung is doing single doa, not sure i know who Sifu Jew is?

[hskwarrior]

THIS IS THE LINK BRO......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1466817336172334030&q=choy+li+fut&pl=true

[hskwarrior]

sifu jew is bosco youngs sifu, of the buk sing lineage.

[Satori Science]

sifu jew is bosco youngs sifu, of the buk sing lineage.
Very interesting, ;)

If you mean the Sifu in the Black with the Grey Hair, that is Sifu Jun Chui Yu and i didn't know that he ended up teaching Bosco Young, my undersatnding was that Sifu Bosco was orgininally my Sigung's student and then studied with Tam Fei Pang but i am always open to being corrected. Very cool stuff.

can you send me that link to Bosco Young's student's Myspace page you mentioned over the summer?

The move demonstrated is obviously part of the Bak Hsing system but no, i have never learned it, not exactly as shown.
One.

[Eddie]

My issue has nothing to do with the fighting skill or either fighters at all. It just the way it was labelled… CLF v s BJJ. That was a simple san shou match, between two fighters who seem to be skilled in san shou technique.

If I post a video of a TKD guy and a Kung fu guy fighting san shou rules, then I shouldn’t label it as TKD vs Kung Fu, now would I?

This type of thing is damaging to martial arts in general, and does nothing to help promote our fighting arts. Kung Fu already don’t have a good name in the fighting circles, why damage it even more?

[hskwarrior]

i was always under the impression that bosco young learned from sifu jun, my bad about the sifu jew thing. i will get that link from myspace.........but forgive me if im wrong.

[chasincharpchui]

satori,

at 2:10 sifu jew is in a cross horse position, spins and hits to two fists one right after the other..........do you have that in your system? and if so, what is it called in chinese?

that lineage is one of the only ones i've seen do it other than ours (Hung Sing).

that move is very common in the GM Kong On lineage of Buck Sing
it appears many times in Sup Ji, Kow Da and Ping Kune

The General Master David Lacey uses it in his combat techniques

[hskwarrior]

chasin,

yeah that technique is found also in our sup ji kau da, which is a combo of sup ji, kau da and our ping kuen as well.

but we also have it in our cheung kuen as well......

do you know what the name of it is? we usually apply it as a kidney shot

thanks bra

[diego]

Yeah, lai hung is in a t shirt i think, but is doing double broadswords.


there is only a one broadsword routine dude has black pants and white t shirt at the four minute mark it goes for like a minute...is that him? The only other weapons is spear and kwan dao:)

[Steeeve]

Thats Lai Hung (He used greychin formula):)...thats him doing the single dao form

Steeeve

[Vilmore]

we call that move gwa sow, frank :)

[diego]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9LPmuzB3TGo&feature=related

This Hop Gar form and Buk Sing look very similar...more similar than hung ga and pak hok...it's the high stances, loose shifting and mobile feet...almost like how the thai's stay on thier toes, very combat orientated. curious

[Infrazael]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9LPmuzB3TGo&feature=related

This Hop Gar form and Buk Sing look very similar...more similar than hung ga and pak hok...it's the high stances, loose shifting and mobile feet...almost like how the thai's stay on thier toes, very combat orientated. curious

**** nice clip! Good find. :)

[jdhowland]

This Hop Gar form and Buk Sing look very similar..


Interesting observation, James. I agree. I learned Bak Sing and Hop Ga about the same time and think of them as quite different strategies. But if you had told me the clip was of a Bak Sing practitioner, I would have believed it, (although Hop Ga's emphasis on grappling can be seen in one or two moves). Perhaps the similarity can be explained by BS and HG both having strong northern roots.

This clip is more evidence of the wide variety of Hop Ga styles. I have seen Hop Ga from a few different lineages and videos of a few more and I have yet to see a "set" or kyuhn that any have in common.

Thanks for posting this.

jd

[diego]

Interesting observation, James. I agree. I learned Bak Sing and Hop Ga about the same time and think of them as quite different strategies. But if you had told me the clip was of a Bak Sing practitioner, I would have believed it, (although Hop Ga's emphasis on grappling can be seen in one or two moves). Perhaps the similarity can be explained by BS and HG both having strong northern roots.

This clip is more evidence of the wide variety of Hop Ga styles. I have seen Hop Ga from a few different lineages and videos of a few more and I have yet to see a "set" or kyuhn that any have in common.

Thanks for posting this.

jd

I see your Northern referance as the south styles tend to be more compact like they are concealing a small weapon while Northern tends to be more chivalrous with the head upright waving a long sword tai chi style...the south seems to tuck thier chin more:).
The Lai Hung vs Cambodians article makes me wonder if the similarity is more combat orientated...I heard the white crane guys were more society based like they taught at recreational centres while the hop ga guys were more street based.
Lai Hung said he was in awe of how the cambodians trained as professional fighters while the hk guys had day jobs...I wonder if this influenced BS and HG technique. The looseness of form reminds me of western shadow boxing, and I've only seen it in BS and HG...kaido's kajukenbo has that whippy crispness. I haven't seen Hung Sing and Chan fam form done high tempo and off the head northern praying mantis has that choppy power but it's more style based than shadow boxing based.

[Satori Science]

I see your Northern referance as the south styles tend to be more compact like they are concealing a small weapon while Northern tends to be more chivalrous with the head upright waving a long sword tai chi style...the south seems to tuck thier chin more:).
The Lai Hung vs Cambodians article makes me wonder if the similarity is more combat orientated...I heard the white crane guys were more society based like they taught at recreational centres while the hop ga guys were more street based.
Lai Hung said he was in awe of how the cambodians trained as professional fighters while the hk guys had day jobs...I wonder if this influenced BS and HG technique. The looseness of form reminds me of western shadow boxing, and I've only seen it in BS and HG...kaido's kajukenbo has that whippy crispness. I haven't seen Hung Sing and Chan fam form done high tempo and off the head northern praying mantis has that choppy power but it's more style based than shadow boxing based.

with the utmost respect i would disagree with a lot if not most of the above.

Northern style is very compact, northern isn't nessicarly what you read in the articles. Don't get to caught up in hypothesis. Tam Fei Pang was a HEAVILY influenced by northern style(s) and our Real fighting is mostly compact and mid to short range.

[diego]

with the utmost respect i would disagree with a lot if not most of the above.

Northern style is very compact, northern isn't nessicarly what you read in the articles. Don't get to caught up in hypothesis. Tam Fei Pang was a HEAVILY influenced by northern style(s) and our Real fighting is mostly compact and mid to short range.

I was generalizing northern wushu and southern 5 family wushu :) the north tend to stand up right with a hero's pose lohan style while the southern dude will go street and use a snake stance...I'm just talking about flavor of technique. Shane Lacey's BS dvd and the hg clip I posted have the same flavor as the thai's you know that crisp shadow boxing footwork you see with street fighting kick boxers who use the head butt and stomp....hung ga tends to look style and power based, the BS and HG clips look a lot like street fighting shadow boxing.

I'm not trying to generalize styles, it just seems some styles seem more fighting based than martial art based and me personally I like to see styles that could be used in places I been around, I'm not so family tradition based...I like san da drills more than long sets, but I'm intrigued by the discipline it takes to do some of the sets out there...Laceys set on the dvd is like three minute cardio, crazy discipline to do right...:)

I'm curious if hong kong styles san da'd there long sets after the wars with the thai's after ww2, Lai Hung's story of his Cambodian fight makes me wonder if they changed thier style a bit then...maybe some hop ga guys faught thai's back then to...

[nospam]

we call that move gwa sow, frank

Yup - just a re-direct with gwa sau.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon

[chasincharpchui]

chasin,

yeah that technique is found also in our sup ji kau da, which is a combo of sup ji, kau da and our ping kuen as well.

but we also have it in our cheung kuen as well......

do you know what the name of it is? we usually apply it as a kidney shot

thanks bra

well its a very common move
2:09 has alot of different names, depending on what the target is
i'm 90% sure the name is "wui ma pow saw" which is "dat ma bin chui/gwa chui"

2:10 is gwa sow