Defense against GnP?

[Crushing Step]

In a different direction than the other thread...

Let's say your a kung fu guy, primarily a striker with some takedown ability. You manage to get yourself taken down, and are now on the receiving end of a "Ground and Pound".

1 - What an you do to prevent this from happening?

2 - What do you do once you're mounted and the fists / elbows start to fall?

[SimonM]

Don't let this happen to you!

That being said:

1) Attempt to tie up the hands; your opponent can't drop bombs if they can't move their arms.

2) And more importantly: disrupt the balance of your opponent and get the fvck out from mount.

[MasterKiller]

In a different direction than the other thread...

Let's say your a kung fu guy, primarily a striker with some takedown ability. You manage to get yourself taken down, and are now on the receiving end of a "Ground and Pound".

1 - What an you do to prevent this from happening?

2 - What do you do once you're mounted and the fists / elbows start to fall?


Cover your head and wait for an opportunity to pull the attacker into you. DO NOT reach up and try to grab his hands or block his punches. That's what submission guys want you to do. If he postures up (sits up), he had more power to rain down blows and pick spots. Gable-grip around his head or waist and pull him down to you.

You also have to be active. If you sit there and hold him, he's just going to wait until he breaks loose and continue to pound you. You should actively bridge and try to "shrimp" or shift your hips to create a gap between your bodies so you can start to work an escape. Bridging is also a good way to bring the guy down so you pull him into you.

If you are super awesome, you can bait the guy by feeding him your arm. Once he attempts an arm-bar, you can work a reverse. But I wouldn't recommend this tactic unless you are pretty confident you can get out of the submission.

[BentMonk]

To avoid the G & P you have to bring your opponents body close to yours and use your hips to buck them off of you. A good grappler wants you to either punch up at them, or try and grab their arm. This gives them the opportunity to grab your arm, and roll off into an arm bar.

Dang it MK you posted while I was typing. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The GnP from the guard is also an issue.
Covering up is crucial, lead with the elbows so that the fists hit the sharp bones, but don't left them too much or you expose your body.
Don't close your eyes and remember to breathe.
Don't Panic.

In training get yourself in the WORSE possible positions so you can learn to get out of them -
Learn to get out of a high mount and a low mount.
Learn to get out if you end up giving your back
Learn to get out if you are on your side
Learn to get out from the knee-on-stomach ( this can be even worse than the mount)
Learn to get out when you have him in close and he is raining elbows and head butts.
Etc, etc.

[SimonM]

scribbles notes about avoiding those **** arm-bars

Arm bars are like my kryptonite. Mistakes like that may be part of the reason why. ;)

That being said:

I actually have GIVEN my back to people in some situations before... all the better to huck them over my shoulder onto the ground in front of me. In my experience this frequently stuns my opponent enough to get cross body.

The one time it happened from standing and the guy I was wrestling with was like 6 foot 4.... he flew five feet, shoulder rolled through the ring of other students watching the match, and jumped up to his feet again.

It didn't actually change the strategic positioning of the match at all but it was all kinds of awesome.

[MasterKiller]

I actually have GIVEN my back to people in some situations before... all the better to huck them over my shoulder onto the ground in front of me. In my experience this frequently stuns my opponent enough to get cross body. Maybe works on new guys, but I would really suggest most people not do this.

[SimonM]

Fair enough. :D

[lkfmdc]

1. Don't get taken down

2. When #1 fails, work on things to get you back up

3. When #2 fails, work it again (taken down 7 times, get up 8)

4. When all that fails, learn to get a closed guard with an overhook and neck time combination

5. From #4.... work to get back up again

[David Jamieson]

1. In order to understand how to swim, you have to get into water.

2. practice

3. practice where you are most uncomfortable

4. keep practicing

[uki]

In a different direction than the other thread...yet still moving forward of course.


Let's say your a kung fu guy, primarily a striker with some takedown ability. You manage to get yourself taken down, and are now on the receiving end of a "Ground and Pound". practice just shifted gears.


1 - What an you do to prevent this from happening?break the limbs, rend the muscle, manipulate the joints.


2 - What do you do once you're mounted and the fists / elbows start to fall?switch to reserved mode and unleash hëll... people tend to forget just how easy the skin and muscle tissues can be stripped from the bone.

[SimonM]

Uki your post was about as informative as saying in baseball "hit the ball, run around the bases, get home".

Followed by saying "people forget how easy it is to get a grand slam."

Tell me: have you ever ripped uncooked flesh off of a person's bones?

[TaichiMantis]

Don't let this happen to you!

That being said:

1) Attempt to tie up the hands; your opponent can't drop bombs if they can't move their arms.

2) And more importantly: disrupt the balance of your opponent and get the fvck out from mount.

To expand on number 2, you do this by bridging (lifting your hips) so he fals forward, losing his balance. There are a number of moves you can do then.

[Crushing Step]

Fight instinct is all well and good, but I don't think it's enough in this case.

Having not ever been on the receiving end of the GnP I appreciate the responses here. I think training and experience here is key, something I admittedly don't have in this particular case. Thing is unlike some people, I recognize that and will seek to remedy it, instead of relying solely on my ability to bite.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fight instinct is all well and good, but I don't think it's enough in this case.

Having not ever been on the receiving end of the GnP I appreciate the responses here. I think training and experience here is key, something I admittedly don't have in this particular case. Thing is unlike some people, I recognize that and will seek to remedy it, instead of relying solely on my ability to bite.

Next class, put on the head gear, your partner puts on the gloves and let him go to town on you, best way to do it.

[uki]

Uki your post was about as informative as saying in baseball "hit the ball, run around the bases, get home".didn't realize there was that much more explaining to do... the concept is pretty simple.


Followed by saying "people forget how easy it is to get a grand slam."which is why hitting one is so darn exhilirating.


Tell me: have you ever ripped uncooked flesh off of a person's bones?sound intention does not require past experience.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

sound intention does not require past experience

Actually, it does.

[wiz cool c]

Without proper position ripping techneques will be hard to do. If we are taking about a good wrestler,not a average street fighting bum. He will be at an advantage for doing the ripping if he has superior position. So I think every kung fu person should at least learn the basic positions and exscapes from them.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You are assuming th Kung Fu person is dumb and has no clue about properly positioning themselves too.

The truth is that a good kung fu guy from a sound line has just as much positional skill as the wrestler. Since the wrestler does not train for defending common kung fu tactics, BUT he Kung Fu guy has plenty of in close take down and throwing to defend in his own art, in theory he should have the advantage over a pure wrestler just due to the well rounded and vastly more diverse skill set he possesses.

[wiz cool c]

we are talking about Ground and pound so we are saying the guys already down and under the grappler right. that is what this topic is about?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, I am saying before it even gets there.

Also, Kung Fu prefers Ground and pound over wrestling on the ground anyway. There are a lot of moves in forms where you sort of kneel down. Those are "one knee on" type controls while you rain attacks down on the opponent. The monkey style especially is full of GnP finishes.

[SimonM]

Actually, it does.

Dude, you stole the words directly out of my mouth. :D

Now a few further points:

1) Ripping the flesh right off his bones: Um, no, sorry, it's not as easy as all that. Don't believe me? Go out and buy the leg of a pig. Don't cook it. Try using your fingers to strip the muscle of the bone. Now remember: this is MUCH easier than ripping the muscle off the bone of a living, struggling opponent.

2) GnP preferred by Kung Fu: It's true, a lot of kung fu includes GnP techniques in it's forms.
But the larper / dancers who run through the motions of forms without ever actually fighting aren't going to be able to control somebody enough to do it.... especially not using the "one knee down" method of control.

Because, trust me, it's not easy to control somebody from inside their guard, one knee probably won't be enough if your opponent has even a day of any sort of wrestling training.

[BentMonk]

I think more kung fu schools are beginning to focus more on the application of techniques than in recent years past. The arrival of MMA schools on every corner is forcing established schools to back up their claims of superiority in the ring or at least on the mat. This is IMO a great thing. I have been fortunate to train at a school that has always emphasised the importance of being able to apply what you know, and being in the proper physical condition to apply your techniques effectively.
Let us not forget that the first ten minutes of the official kung fu documentary Enter The Dragon has Bruce Lee, and Samo Hung fighting a San Shou match. Their attire is very similar to that worn by today's MMA fighters. Bruce wins the fight by a take down followed by an arm bar. Samo tapped. This of course proves that MMA along with every other combat system practiced by man originated in the Shaolin temple and was later perfected by Bruce Lee. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Samo tapped. This of course proves that MMA along with every other combat system practiced by man originated in the Shaolin temple and was later perfected by Bruce Lee. :D

This is 100% correct.

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO (filling up space) :D

[brothernumber9]

sound intention does not require past experience.:D

but sound advice should. I can intend to replace a light switch in my house and really beleive that I will do it. But it would be stupid to try to tell someone else how to do it without never having done it. This may lead to a severe disaster or even death. How do I know? because I have replaced a switch and made mistakes that led to shorts and shocks, and I now know better and a correct method for doing it. Keep carrying rocks out of the woods and thinking that it's improving your ground and pound defense.

[wiz cool c]

No, I am saying before it even gets there.

Also, Kung Fu prefers Ground and pound over wrestling on the ground anyway. There are a lot of moves in forms where you sort of kneel down. Those are "one knee on" type controls while you rain attacks down on the opponent. The monkey style especially is full of GnP finishes.

Talking of monkey style true story. There is a teacher who teaches monkey kung fu along with some other styles. I won't mention any names but some of you know him. I was taking a class of his about 15 years ago. The class was the self defence class at the kung fu school in long island. One of the student had a strong wrestling background. There was a mat out and the teacher was demoing some monkey ground work on the kung fu student who had a wrestling background. He was kind of playing around with a free form not a set move. The wreslter student started to resist and the teacher continued to do his monkey ground work. Want to know how it ended? the teacher was pinned by the wrestler and taped out.

[SimonM]

Yeah, Monkey is one of the styles of Kung Fu that is most vulnerable to larpers and frauds. Sad but true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any Monkey style that does NOT involve flinging Poo is obviously not legit.

[wiz cool c]

Yeah, Monkey is one of the styles of Kung Fu that is most vulnerable to larpers and frauds. Sad but true.

Well the guy is legit. He isn't a fraud. Just don't think the ground work is trained as realistically as a style like wrestling where they go at it full force every time verse theory.

[SimonM]

Not all LARPers are frauds. They are just people play-acting.

For a while I considered going to a boffer LARP that a friend of mine told me about because I figured it'd be a chance to actually swing something sword like.

Then I saw a youtube video of a boffer LARP.

That killed that idea fast. :p

I have no problem with people play-acting for fun. I'm a martial arts geek. I'm still a geek. Lots of my friends actually DO actual LARPS. However, a note, when people confuse the play-acting of LARP for reality the geeks who are involved in that activity get concerned.

I have a big problem when people confuse play acting for reality. Sadly that is what many people in the martial arts do. If you are play-acting as a deadly ninja for the fun of it that's fine, knock yourself out. Just remember that you aren't REALLY a deadly ninja.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just remember that you aren't REALLY a deadly ninja.

I'm not !?!?!?!
:eek:

[lkfmdc]

Talking of monkey style true story. There is a teacher who teaches monkey kung fu along with some other styles. I won't mention any names but some of you know him. I was taking a class of his about 15 years ago. The class was the self defence class at the kung fu school in long island. One of the student had a strong wrestling background. There was a mat out and the teacher was demoing some monkey ground work on the kung fu student who had a wrestling background. He was kind of playing around with a free form not a set move. The wreslter student started to resist and the teacher continued to do his monkey ground work. Want to know how it ended? the teacher was pinned by the wrestler and taped out.


Well the guy is legit. He isn't a fraud. Just don't think the ground work is trained as realistically as a style like wrestling where they go at it full force every time verse theory.

:D

(some random words down here to make the minimum)

[SimonM]

See, that's the thing. I wasn't saying the monkey sifu was a fraud. Balance of probability says no. I was saying the monkey sifu didn't necessarily really know what he was doing. What's worse is that he evidently thought he did.

[uki]

but sound advice should.why not follow unsound advice and catch everyone by suprise?


I can intend to replace a light switch in my house and really beleive that I will do it. But it would be stupid to try to tell someone else how to do it without never having done it. This may lead to a severe disaster or even death. How do I know? because I have replaced a switch and made mistakes that led to shorts and shocks, and I now know better and a correct method for doing it. Keep carrying rocks out of the woods and thinking that it's improving your ground and pound defense.so until you are carrying the rocks i do out of the woods, perhaps you should first learn from your shocking little lesson before preaching it to me... :)

[brothernumber9]

[QUOTE=uki;887771]why not follow unsound advice and catch everyone by suprise?

Experience and observation have convinced me that the odds are vastly in favor of there being no surprise at all. The guy trying to rip some muscle or tendon off someone through their sweat and tension or clothing, gets beat down. I'm not against it being possible, but I've never seen it, and I've seen planty of MMA fights and more than a few real fights. I don't have any recorded data, but likely somewhere around a few thousand fights, and never seen it happen. I therefore conclude that such defense has an extremely low possibility of working.

I'm not normally compelled to reply with some malice toward another poster, especailly when the posts have nothing to do directly or relatively indirectly with myself, but your inane posts and replies on this thread got me to do it. The suggestions you present in threads like this one are illogical, and for lack of a better or more PC way to put it, ring of ineptitude.

[SimonM]

Uki rejects logic. When I provided a logical argument for the validity of logic he attacked it by saying I had used logic to argue for itself. Apparently he would prefer I provide an illogical rationale for the superiority of logic.

So here it is:

Logic tastes better, the machine elves from alpha centauri 8 told me so.

[uki]

Logic tastes better, the machine elves from alpha centauri 8 told me so.a centaurian eh? lyran myself.

[1bad65]

The GnP from the guard is also an issue.
Covering up is crucial, lead with the elbows so that the fists hit the sharp bones, but don't left them too much or you expose your body.
Don't close your eyes and remember to breathe.
Don't Panic.

In training get yourself in the WORSE possible positions so you can learn to get out of them -
Learn to get out of a high mount and a low mount.
Learn to get out if you end up giving your back
Learn to get out if you are on your side
Learn to get out from the knee-on-stomach ( this can be even worse than the mount)
Learn to get out when you have him in close and he is raining elbows and head butts.
Etc, etc.

Very good advice.

About giving up your back; it's a completely different story when you do it in sport BJJ as opposed to MMA or a fight.

[1bad65]

Uki rejects logic. When I provided a logical argument for the validity of logic he attacked it by saying I had used logic to argue for itself. Apparently he would prefer I provide an illogical rationale for the superiority of logic.

I actually agree with you 100% :eek:

Seriously, take all advice Uki gives and do the opposite.

[cjurakpt]

Logic tastes better, the machine elves from alpha centauri 8 told me so.

I would have thought Ceti Alpha VI, but as we all know, there is no Ceti Alpha VI...

[uki]

Seriously, take all advice Uki gives and do the opposite.now how is that for some conscious practice...:)

[cjurakpt]

Talking of monkey style true story. There is a teacher who teaches monkey kung fu along with some other styles. I won't mention any names but some of you know him. I was taking a class of his about 15 years ago. The class was the self defence class at the kung fu school in long island. One of the student had a strong wrestling background. There was a mat out and the teacher was demoing some monkey ground work on the kung fu student who had a wrestling background. He was kind of playing around with a free form not a set move. The wreslter student started to resist and the teacher continued to do his monkey ground work. Want to know how it ended? the teacher was pinned by the wrestler and taped out.

:rolleyes:



...............................

[SimonM]

I'm rooting for 1bad65 vs Uki in an online cage match...

It'd be as entertaining as baiting both of them but I wouldn't have to type anything... :D

[1bad65]

It'd be as entertaining as baiting both of them but I wouldn't have to type anything... :D

And after I tried agreeing with you?!?! lol It's all good.

I actually feel bad for guys like him. He really thinks that garbage will work. Someone even told him to test it on a pig leg. He won't. Because deep down he knows he's been believing in something as ridiculous as the Tooth Fairy.

That, or he's trolling.

[uki]

I'm rooting for 1bad65 vs Uki in an online cage match...so we are confined between the edges of our computer screens? what if one of our screens is bigger... will that affect the fairness of it all?

[SimonM]

LOL well we tend to agree about martial arts. Just nothing else.

[uki]

I actually feel bad for guys like him.as if you have more than enough time to feel bad for people like yourself.


He really thinks that garbage will work. and i am quite sure you think yours will too...


Someone even told him to test it on a pig leg. He won't. Because deep down he knows he's been believing in something as ridiculous as the Tooth Fairy.you're a hoot. what do you have to stand for?


That, or he's trolling.maybe both, we got to perfect some means of luring idi0ts across the bridge...

[1bad65]

and i am quite sure you think yours will too...

I actually test my training on a daily basis.

You can't, because you know you will fail.

[uki]

I actually test my training on a daily basis.testing isn't passing.


You can't, because you know you will fail.just because your luck is sh!tty, don't attempt to plaster it on me...:p

and whatever tough guy... i am not here to compete, obviously you are... and i don't do competion... because there is none.:p

[BentMonk]

Uki - If you really think you can tear flesh from bone, by all means go to your local butcher get a pig leg, fire up the video camera, rip away, post it and prove your point. If you're not willing to do that, I call shenanigans and give you a 3.5 for your troll fu. :D Also, unless your last name is Gracie giving an opponent your back is a very bad idea. I wouldn't mind seeing a video of that working well for you either.

[uki]

Uki - If you really think you can tear flesh from bone, by all means go to your local butcher get a pig leg, fire up the video camera, rip away, post it and prove your point. If you're not willing to do that, I call shenanigans and give you a 3.5 for your troll fu. :D Also, unless your last name is Gracie giving an opponent your back is a very bad idea. I wouldn't mind seeing a video of that working well for you either.i will hold you to this... give me some time, but assuredly as the internet still functions i will do my best to provide a video... i too am curious of my assertions...:D honestly...