The Forms

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Anyone know of any videos or articles that break each movement in the forms down and give explinations of the applications and energy involved? Preferebly Yip Man style but any style will be of use.

Additionally, does anyone know what the throwing wings in chum kiu are used for? and why is the same movement repeated 3 times? (im a newbie at wing chun)

[David Peterson]

My DVDs do :)
DMP

[Phil Redmond]

Anyone know of any videos or articles that break each movement in the forms down and give explinations of the applications and energy involved? Preferebly Yip Man style but any style will be of use.

Additionally, does anyone know what the throwing wings in chum kiu are used for? and why is the same movement repeated 3 times? (im a newbie at wing chun)
William Cheung has videos available that show the combat applications of the forms. I am also in the process of making some DVDs.

[sihing]

My DVDs do :)
DMP

You won't find any better than David's DVD's. I've seen the rest and haven't found any with the same amount of QUALITY information. The SNT DVD is over 3hrs of information alone, most sets are not that long, this one is for the first form alone. CK is even better:) David is a educator, he know's the material and know's how to present it, this makes a big difference in understanding IMO.

David's DVD's are not about just the why's, but the how's, when's, where's and what's, a prime choice for anyone willing to invest in some personal investigation into WC concept, theory and application.

James

[couch]

I agree that David's DVDs (at least until I see Phil Redmond's upcoming stuff - good for you man!) on the first two forms are top notch.

[Ernie]

Have to agree ,,, Davids Vids are tight ... so much detail ,, being a guy that has researched pretty much all the stuff out there over the years ,, i have not seen anything close to content and presentation style
most are marketing ploys to try and draw people into this or that lineage were they try and poke holes at other peoples ideas
David just lays it out there with logic and body mechanics nothing flashy no body beating up half dead students you know the usual MO :cool:

[Wu Wei Wu]

I, like some of the other folk on this forum have a fairly extensive collection of Wing Chun based material. Peterson's DVD's are very very good IMO.

Suki

[LoneTiger108]

As much as I like to learn and research, I have yet to go on that spending spree and buy all the Wing Chun DVDs out there (yet!) I have only one, from Uncle Joe Lee, and it's more of a chisau reference for Lee Shing family than a form study.

One reason I actually avoid DVDs is that I watched many clips during my time with Sifu, some as reference and some just because they're family. On almost every occassion it was obvious that the 'patterns' were consistent, but the terms and explanations varied dramatically. There seems to be no unison when it comes to explaining simple images and their 'use'.

FWIW All form training I learnt was always taught as a 'self therapy' first. We 'flowed' more than the average, which in turn needed to be kept in check otherwise our image just didn't look familiar to everyone else. The explanations I heard have not been heard since.

Katsu - Regarding the 'throwing arms' in Chum Kil. Surely you have been given an interpretation when you learnt the form? Share and share alike...

[couch]

Additionally, does anyone know what the throwing wings in chum kiu are used for? and why is the same movement repeated 3 times? (im a newbie at wing chun)

The three sets of Bong Sau are explained very clearly as well in David Peterson's Chum Kiu DVD.

[k gledhill]

Anyone know of any videos or articles that break each movement in the forms down and give explinations of the applications and energy involved? Preferebly Yip Man style but any style will be of use.

Additionally, does anyone know what the throwing wings in chum kiu are used for? and why is the same movement repeated 3 times? (im a newbie at wing chun)



free info , no dvd's to sell sorry....:D

there is a common idea born from "attack as your defense"

What does the attack look like ? can I see it ? it can take on many 'looks' . From a simple punch to a complicated engagement requiring mixed ma's abilities. We are a combat mind, not sporting iow, we are trying to end the fight asap , not allow it to go 10 rounds with a break in between , so we need to have a way to deliver the idea ...ok attack as defense , now what , how do i achieve this great idea ? :D

the forms are simply the 'attack' broken down, iow the forms are just 'parts' of the tools you need to deliver your attack as you require, no elaborate sequential movements. The forms are just 'bytes' of actions in a high speed engagement .


The repetition [ 3 times] signifies importance , or focus more on that particular action/s.

The bong is an energy not a pose, to recover an 'attack' , so we repeat the partnership
of bong & vu & leg . The 'throwing' is a ballistic [ging/shock] energy to displace the other guys arm laterally to the ensuing strike /attack from the rear vu. incorporating leg force unity in the timing ...leg energy timed with bong position = explosive force. repeat 2-3 forever :D

Bong & vu& leg, are an attack recovery action, relatively complex, beyond a simple strike that also does attack /defense actions , simultaneously. So we repeat it ..you can do it 8,000,000 times ...3 is just a 'form'....a way to do a simple set to maintain yourself alone.

Bong isnt done alone except when doing 'facing' aka low [ only for training] because we apply this attacking entry bong when we are coming directly at you from an angle / flank, when either rear/lead leg can be used .
We do the bongs in SLT from left to right & right to left alone . In the Chum Kil, we incorporate the rear X angling strike line of vu , with the displacing energy of bong , coupled with the short shuffle that uses the leg extension in timing to match the bongs final ballistic point of 'contact' or not and back to recovery.
This allows the strike 'attack' to be delivered uninterrupted by someone simply X'ing over your initial striking attack arm. The combined energy of the action is 'contained' into a move that doesnt chase but recovers back to keep striking , meaning even if you 'miss' the contact point you dont go past your own centerline opening yourself up...knives.

Bong is done because a spatial line of attack is coming at you , meaning you dont require contact to 'feel' anything to use it , many erroneously use the bong to divert force , turn energy and enter into another realm of fighting...feelers.:D

You can fight a 'feeler' quite easily , because they seek arms to feel to function ...

If an arm 'finds me' then I use feeling 'briefly' ;), otherwise I'm striking you, its up to you to stop me , how good you can do that is your attack ability.... Do you have counter attacking actions that work to attack my attack, to overwhelm my intentions to attack you ? :D can your simple tan punch and jum punch delivered in rotation , work to regain your attack ? or do you require two hands for everything..ie lop n chop, lop n punch , lop n bil....pak n trap n punch, bong lop chop, bong lop punch and the list goes on kwan lop n chop:eek:

Even if I show you a movement in a dvd , without certain 'thinking' to guide you it will seem very similar .


In a real fight you will act without thinking about VT ...so the VT has to be done in a drill that can take the actions and responses to a level of 'no thought '....you cant achieve this in forms alone doing 3 times , so we do chi-sao to ingrain the ideas .

The Wooden dummy gives us the 'ging/shock' force points and alignment /facing with rotation of actions not 'poses' isolated into 'moves' ...

If you can just step away from the attacker and make them lose contact ...stop moving and make them lose space and get to close ....how to regain your space to attack, maintain the attack if grabbed, if an arm x'e yours, if you need to kick ...

everything in the system is training you to be able to achieve this goal....

tan is the 1st 1/2 of a punch as is jum.....each can use the other to maintain an assault on either flank, without leaving your centerline to 'block' [ hate saying that] or chase to feel :D...

'throwing bongs' work to keep this flanking attack going , because either bong 'knocks' energy left or right , further opening up you ability to strike into the gap created or simply deliver attacking actions....

So either arm has a tan strike ability, using the outside of the arm [ elbow leaves the line or sreads off the line]
Either arm has jum strike ability , using the inside of the arm [ elbow inwards strike]

added ...the 'fixed elbow principle' refers to the fact that the arm uses either side of the forearm with elbow control fixing the line , as SLT , so the arms dont leave the line when doing tan or jum, only the inner mind control focus is changed to keep the elbow in and strike, or allow the elbow out...starting and finishing from the centerline. Each rotating back to a rear chambered strike, capable of being either energy in a millisecond of a changing fight ....no thinking .

each can deliver a strike to back up the previous 'energy' delivered outside /inside strikes from either side seamlessly....not seeking to block but deliver deflecting 'glancing' energy as they go forwards....bong serves to open the door left or right depending what side your on....;)

brilliant idea.

some will say there is a high -low - turning etc..bong ...bong is just a means to an end so dont get caught in the " this bong is for this , and this bong is for if this happens...

whatever you do, point your centerline at them and ATTACK,FIRE, SHOVE , PUSH , KICK, HEADBUTT, RAM INTO WALL.. !!! he hehheheh ...never let them point their line at you, the rest comes from this simple thinking ...2 lines dont face each other unless they are training partners doing drills to attack or counter from that 'face -off position'
..you wouldn't want to have a fair fight would you ?


fight 50% of the opponent with 100% of yourself. Which 50% is up to them to show you... what side doesnt matter because your training to be able to deliver 100 % from either side they turn or you make them turn ; )

[RGVWingChun]

nicely said. I've recently come to pretty much the same conclusions that you shared here....I recently told one of my students that the principle of simultaneous attack and defense doesn't only mean that one hand is attack and one hand is defending. Rather, within the defensive hand is contained an offense movement as well. That has been my recent interpretation of "lin siu dai da"....

Moses

[k gledhill]

tan & jum are simply training positions for strikes utilizing inside or outside of the forearms while striking.....each side /flank can be attacked with either combo...the techniques are all helping each other to maintain an attacking action with simple strikes or in a rotation of clearing actions & strikes to resume striking with 100% against 50%

2 knives v 1 knife...2 arms v 1 arm...what side ? Yip Man used to say that the opponent would show you what to do or what tactical approach to adopt.

In chisao we use a tan energy to develop the jum energy...one partner does his strike using the tan outside edge of the arm, keeping elbows in , while the partner adopts a jum strike using inward elbow positions to strike the strike....either can strike while the other strike/defends with a counter/strike/attack ...both are attacking each other simultaneously ....bad elbows or loose positions will be shown as entry ......bong sao's deflect the jum punch [ over your tan strike] and deflects off line ....while the juming force becomes a recovering fook or neutral energy arm , neither tan or jum force , just coming back to neutral center....and repeat 10,000,000 times 2-3.
The bong returns to a striking elbow in position. repeat forever.

....add impact training /focus in short range ...seung ma toi ma aka attack and counter attack ..one attacks, the other counter attacks...nothing to do with 'if your pushed'...its a striking reaction and correct angles , your not going to wait to be pushed to do toi ma....you use it as an attacking angle relative to a side presented....all for free-fighting not a chi-sao face off with a guy who spills your beer and grabs your girlfriend at the local bar...what are you going to do "roll" with them ?


; )

[Katsu Jin Ken]

K Gledhill great explination! i like it alot, its on the lines of what i was told as well. Sifu said its to train explosive sinking and rising aspects as well as breakin your opponents structure on the low line just our opinon.

[k gledhill]

like water crashing onto rocks...if you dont get out of the way of the water you will also get wet sooner or later....be like water.

like the sound of snow falling deep in the woods at an old temple , the mind is still.


..the 'fixed elbow principle' refers to the fact that the arm uses either side of the forearm with elbow control fixing the alignment , as SLT , so the arms dont leave the line when doing tan or jum, only the inner mind control focus is changed to keep the elbow in and strike, or allow the elbow out...starting and finishing from the centerline. Each rotating back to a rear chambered strike, capable of being either energy in a millisecond of a changing fight ....no thinking .

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't own any DVD's. I have never considered purchasing any either. I realize that there are a lot of different styles and forms are different from one practitioner to the next, and I am not interested in doing anything different from what I do now. I feel that what I do is superior to anything I can see on a DVD. That sounds arrogant I realize, but it is my way of avoiding confusion. I have added and removed certain moves from my forms over the years simply because I can. They are only fluid movements from one technique to the next and not really a fight sequence as you would see in other Gung Fu forms, so it doesn't really matter how or what you do as long as you are doing it. Well, as long as it is Wing Chun technique.
The best way to interpret a move is to do it and see what it feels like that you are doing. If it feels like a particular technique then it is, and you just do it with commitment and as fluid as you can. And as you perfect your form, you can add stuff that you like and remove stuff you will seldom use. I would not recommend removing anything unless it is way off in left field as you can never know what will serve you in time of need. If you have difficulty with a particular technique you can do it repeatedly or several times at least. Eventually you will get good at it.

Chiang

[RGVWingChun]

I can certainly understand that....I don't have many DVD's just Master Kwok's latest on the forms, but I have a lot of digital stuff and I personally like to see other stuff just to get ideas or maybe see somebody else's take on an idea that I already hold to and see if their explanation might help me understand the concept better


Moses

[Wu Wei Wu]

Am not sure what the beef is with viewing Wing Chun DVD's.

I, for one, are not so presumptuous to assume that I can't learn anything from other Wing Chun people outside of my own line.

When it comes to learning, I will use any reference source available whilst appreciating that hands on training with resistance provided by decent opponents is the best form.

Suki

[Lee Chiang Po]

Am not sure what the beef is with viewing Wing Chun DVD's.

I, for one, are not so presumptuous to assume that I can't learn anything from other Wing Chun people outside of my own line.

When it comes to learning, I will use any reference source available whilst appreciating that hands on training with resistance provided by decent opponents is the best form.

Suki

I personally don't have a beef with watching DVD's about other peoples Wing Chun. The only problem I seem to have is a lack of interest in them. I have only seen a hand full of people trained in other lines of Wing Chun, and in each one I could quickly and easily see differences in how they did things. They adhered to the basics, which made it good Wing Chun, but it was indeed different from mine in minor ways. I can not see a good reason for me to consider doing things differently after doing it my way for so long. I can not learn anything from that. All I can manage to do is confuse my own style.
Most of the Wing Chun claims I have seen on this forum about differences were not really differences, just different in explanation. That way they can claim completely different styles within the same system. Helps to authenticate themselves. Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Only the aesthetics may change to small degrees. Or one may place emphisis on this and that over this and that. Sort of silly I think.

[couch]

Most of the Wing Chun claims I have seen on this forum about differences were not really differences, just different in explanation. That way they can claim completely different styles within the same system. Helps to authenticate themselves. Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Only the aesthetics may change to small degrees. Or one may place emphisis on this and that over this and that. Sort of silly I think.

There are huge differences in mechanics and footwork at times (to name a couple of differences).

Example: Wrist sticking vs. elbow sticking/emphasis has a major difference in application.

[k gledhill]

I second that, if your developing feeling force forwards with wrists as most commonly do ,
you wont be developing into the other elbow alignment etc...
it will produce two completely different fighters using the same shapes for different ideas.
I know that personally :D

[John Smith]

Gents

Just to jump back to what DVD's are out there.

I can only give testimony to my good friend David Peterson.

If you are thirsty for the Wong Shun Leung family of Ving Tsun. Then look no further.

I had the sincere privilege of training with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. And to be totally honest the words that David conveys this great system are the same words that Wong Sifu used to speak.

While others have their own way to deliver the message. David is able to do it with out distortion and accuracy

Cheers
John Smith

[Ernie]

Gents

Just to jump back to what DVD's are out there.

I can only give testimony to my good friend David Peterson.

If you are thirsty for the Wong Shun Leung family of Ving Tsun. Then look no further.

I had the sincere privilege of training with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. And to be totally honest the words that David conveys this great system are the same words that Wong Sifu used to speak.

While others have their own way to deliver the message. David is able to do it with out distortion and accuracy

Cheers
John Smith
Big Uncle John ,,,,, get down with your bad self ;)

[t_niehoff]

Am not sure what the beef is with viewing Wing Chun DVD's.



My $0.02 --

There is nothing wrong with viewing WCK DVDs. But you need to appreciate that watching DVDs will never teach you WCK. It can't. It can show you or teach you the curriculum of WCK: the forms, the drills. IOWs, the movements of WCK. But DVDs or even an instructor can't teach you how to use/apply/fight with that curriculum -- you can only work that out for yourself through doing it. Just as you can only learn to box by boxing, learn to swim by swimming, learn to ride a bike by riding a bike, etc.

While it is common for people to show so-called "applications" on DVDs, much of it is fantasy (and wouldnever work) and come from nonfighters. Application is just that -- doing it in fighting (that is applying your WCK). Showing what you think you could do or should do in fighting isn't application, it is theory, it is conjecture. Showing it in fighting is application. Application is fighting. With that in mind, how many show application?

And, fwiw, I think trying to teach "applications" from forms is going about it backwards, and is a really poor way to learn any physical skill. First application (learn the skill itself against an opponent), then dummy (practice the skill), then form (to memorialize it).

[couch]

And, fwiw, I think trying to teach "applications" from forms is going about it backwards, and is a really poor way to learn any physical skill. First application (learn the skill itself against an opponent), then dummy (practice the skill), then form (to memorialize it).

As some of us agree, the 'forms' weren't taught - or rather - weren't even present. Things were drilled first with exercises and applications. The forms were the afterthought, if you will.

I personally call the forms homework. No point working on them for the whole time that you've got a partner there. Time to work on application when you've got the bodies present.