So what if a good school isn't an option?

[SimonM]

Ok, so over in the countering grapplers threads we had been discussing a little side issue about what to do in situations where a good martial arts school just wasn't available. The concensus had basically been reached that in these cases videos and mcdojos/mckwooks were better than nothing at all...

Keep in mind this wasn't an endorsement of these two phenomena. Just saying if it's that or naught than that is better than naught.

Now bakxiboxer comes along and says he vehemently disagrees. (he also implied that people from Canada shouldn't be entitled to having opinions but, really, who gives a fvck what he thinks about that issue?)

Anyway, it appears there is not a concensus on this issue. So, what if the closest GOOD school is too far to get to consistently? What do you do? How do you train?

[MightyB]

I too thought Canadians shouldn't have opinions... well, that was until I got digital cable and started watching the CBC. You can say fvck on regular tv.

And I thought our politics were messed up....;)

[bakxierboxer]

Ok, so over in the countering grapplers threads we had been discussing a little side issue about what to do in situations where a good martial arts school just wasn't available. The concensus had basically been reached that in these cases videos and mcdojos/mckwooks were better than nothing at all...

Keep in mind this wasn't an endorsement of these two phenomena. Just saying if it's that or naught than that is better than naught.

Now bakxiboxer comes along and says he vehemently disagrees. (he also implied that people from Canada shouldn't be entitled to having opinions but, really, who gives a fvck what he thinks about that issue?)

Anyway, it appears there is not a concensus on this issue. So, what if the closest GOOD school is too far to get to consistently? What do you do? How do you train?

There is a whole "big world" out there.
That big world encompasses a continuum of "goodness" in MA schools/training.
The general format of the McDojo/McKwoon is one of "systemized" "bottom of the barrel" "MA-stuff" where the sole "professional" aspect is one of sales/$$$.
While there may not be a truly good top-of-the-line school in the area, there's a fairly good chance that there is one that could be "good enough".
The only "problem" after that, is how does a newb determine that level of "goodness"?

[bakxierboxer]

I too thought Canadians shouldn't have opinions... well, that was until I got digital cable and started watching the CBC. You can say fvck on regular tv.


They can say "fvck" on regular tv?
Hmmmmm...... there may yet be some few redeeming features "up there"......



And I thought our politics were messed up....;)

"Politics"?

"You can't stand up for Canada with a banana for a backbone." John Diefenbaker

John George Diefenbaker (18 September 1895 – 16 August 1979)
the 13th Prime Minister of Canada (1957 – 1963).

[1bad65]

Most cities of any size will have a Judo club or a boxing gym. The YMCA often offers classes for both.

[SanHeChuan]

small towns out number cities by alot :p

[uki]

So, what if the closest GOOD school is too far to get to consistently? What do you do? How do you train?the greatest secret that any master in the arts will perhaps choose to tell you is simply that the master dwells inside each of us, just waiting to be discovered... it is the most basic concept applied to a fully functioning human being on any level of being, wether physically, mentally, or spiritually, it is the basic principle of self-sufficiency; the ability to properly sustain, protect, and maintain oneself without outside aide... to continuessly search for an external source, you are blinding yourself to the internal one... call me flaky, but it's a reality i have come to embrace.

[SimonM]

Ok, so BB says "there will always be SOME good school" - he's clearly never lived in rural China. ;)

He then goes on to quote possibly Canada's least memorable prime minister. Diefenbaker is primarily remembered for massive fallout shelters that were never used, air raid sirens that were never sounded and some pandering to the USA. Personally I prefer Lester B. Pearson. But props for knowing who Diefenbaker even was, that puts you ahead of probably most of the folks down south.

Uki, of course, preaches for martial knowledge to magically flood into you from the secret master within... par for the course for our resident theosophist.

1bad65 posts his sanest post... well... ever. But, again, has clearly not ever seen what schools can be like in the northern periphery of Canada.

[bawang]

hi, i thnk you can just focus on your conditioning if ur in a small isolated area. punching things and beating yourslef with things and lifting heavy things will be better than ruining ur training with crappy schools

[SoCo KungFu]

punching things and beating yourslef with things and lifting heavy things.

I think this man may have done some kung fu

[bakxierboxer]

Ok, so BB says "there will always be SOME good school" - he's clearly never lived in rural China. ;)

Not exactly.
I said that there was a fairly good chance that there would be *some* school that might be
"good enough" (for your current purposes) if you knew how to go about determining that.



He then goes on to quote possibly Canada's least memorable prime minister. Diefenbaker is primarily remembered for massive fallout shelters that were never used, air raid sirens that were never sounded and some pandering to the USA.

Actually, I chose to quote him because he seemed to be a bit of an optimist in thinking that Canadians had actual backbones composed of something more substantial than a banana..... :D
(it gives one ever so much more confidence in what are normally considered to be "allies")


Personally I prefer Lester B. Pearson.

This fellow?
"Prime ministers require the hide of a rhinoceros....... and the subtlety of Machiavelli."
Lester B. Pearson, Canadian Prime Minister


But props for knowing who Diefenbaker even was....

Well, it's not like there've been all that many of 'em.......



1bad65 posts his sanest post... well... ever. But, again, has clearly not ever seen what schools can be like in the northern periphery of Canada.

That's inside the Arctic Circle, isn't it?


OTOH, this fellow is "more quotable":
"I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them."
Tommy Douglas, Former Saskatchewan Premier and Leader of the Federal New Democratic Party


Aaaaaaand last, but certainly not least, and my personal nominee for:

The Greatest Canadian Ever:

Laurence J. Peter

(born Vancouver, BC)
Author of "The Peter Principle" and "The Peter Pyramid"

Did not achieve fame until 1968 when he had published his seminal work "The Peter Principle" while at USC.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

On the subject of learning from books and videos:

The best guitar player i ever knew learned from a beginners "Teach Yourself Guitar" book, and lots, and lots, and lots of practice.

This was supplemented by watching heavy metal bands play his favorite tunes on TV using a VCR (or back then maybe even Beta).

He never had a lesson in his life.


Martial arts wise, you may never master a specific style form a book, BUT there is no reason why you can't develop a functional fighting method with lots, and lots, and lost of practice with a dedicated group of partners. In fact, I myself have done this, and faired better than others who learned from real teachers in the average strip mall schools.

My real skill still came from live instruction though, especially in the internal arts. but I have held my own against Black Belts in the past, based specifically off the Louhan book by Don F Dreggar

[bakxierboxer]

The best guitar player i ever knew learned from a beginners "Teach Yourself Guitar" book, and lots, and lots, and lots of practice.


Was he Canadian? :rolleyes:



.... real teachers in the average strip mall schools.

Oh, yeh dey jus' beez crawlin' out'n the woodwork in dem malls.



I have held my own against Black Belts in the past, based specifically off the Louhan book by Don F Dreggar

Donn F. Draeger.

[golden arhat]

tbh i agree with bakxier


no training is better than bad training

i'd rather not know something than know how to do it terribly

if there were no good schools near me i'd probably go to a high school or college near me and take up wrestling or boxing

and go to the gym as usual

assuming there is no wrestling or boxing

i'd go to my local bar or start going to hardcore shows around the area and get in to fights (fights at shows are especcially common)

at least regular bar fights etc give you real experience and skills

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would advocate learning from a high quality instructional DVD and a few buddies, long before I would advocate going to a McDojo.
That said, there really isn't a need to be so isolated.
Some kwoons now offer internet course for example.
Still, you can still find a decent MA gym in any city, though I do know that some small towns have zero to offer and many people can't travel/commute to a good gym.
It is a fact of life.
In the Toronto area we have more than enough decent schools but, I have a friend that has such a lousy schedule ( worse than mine) that it is almost impossible for him to go to classes.
His weekends are open so he goes to open mat time on Saturdays and the rest of the time trains at home.
I set him up with a few good video series and it has helped him quite a bit, in CONJUNCTION with good sparring and mat time once a week.

[bakxierboxer]

tbh i agree with bakxier......

?????????????
WTF!!!!???
Waitaminnit!
(picks up vintage hand-cranked telephone, rings thru to HELL)
"HEY! SATAN-baby!
How dey hangin'?
Yeah, right.... like always?
You say you're shivering and gotta go find a sweater somewhere?
What's the weather like down there?
Oh.... so lemme get dis right.... you say the bottom just blew out of ALL your thermometers? and you think you see a fvcking GLACIER moving towards ya?
Yeah, yeah it IS tough to see all the details when you're in the middle of a frickin' blizzard.......
DANG! How about that!"



no training is better than bad training

In the sense that bad training can breed false confidence and a (likely short-lived) tendency to get into stuff that shouldn't even be considered.



i'd rather not know something than know how to do it terribly

It could be worse...
The sh1t you learned might be completely unworkable & your only hope of survival will be an opponent who thinks you look so funny that he falls down in an uncontrollable fit of laughter.
(OTOH, a couple my seniors in Kajukenbo used to have small repertoires of "Spaz Moves" that they'd toss out "just for laffs" and to throw an opponent off-guard.... just before decking them for real.
The Islanders could be a real hoot! :D

[bakxierboxer]

I would advocate learning from a high quality instructional DVD and a few buddies, long before I would advocate going to a McDojo.


With a smallish group, it might be possible to arrange for someone from a decent school to come to the area once a week or so.... someone with the equivalent of a first-kyu/brown-belt would "do" OK for beginners. It's even probable that it would be someone of that level that would actually be doing the teaching to the newbs in that decent school.
(the "less decent" schools wouldn't even give them a brown belt)

Combine that with frequent group practices to nail down the material and a group road trip once a month to the central school....

[SimonM]

OTOH, this fellow is "more quotable":
"I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them."
Tommy Douglas, Former Saskatchewan Premier and Leader of the Federal New Democratic Party




You just struck a grand slam in my opinion of you. Tommy Douglas was a familial acquaintance. A truly, truly, great man. Should have been prime minister.

And, BTW, been looking at schools in Prince George, second largest city in Northern Canada really (after Edmonton) and it's looking like it'll probably have to be judo.

The other offerings are TKD (I hate TKD), Hapkido (the handlebar moustaches of the instructors and comments on how techniques are too deadly to do without supervision are a warning), a boxing gym called "shaolin boxing" run by a coach whose main boxing credential is "a black belt in kung fu" and a couple of karate schools with no web pages.

[bakxierboxer]

You just struck a grand slam in my opinion of you. Tommy Douglas was a familial acquaintance. A truly, truly, great man. Should have been prime minister.

Thanks.
I have my moments.
It must be nice to know folks like that.... :D



And, BTW, been looking at schools in Prince George, second largest city in Northern Canada really (after Edmonton) and it's looking like it'll probably have to be judo.

For "what you're into", you could do far worse.
Not my cuppa.... but they do know how to "make stuff work" which is the essence of "kung fu".
(at least it's supposed to be)



The other offerings are TKD (I hate TKD)....

You've said that more than once.....
As a "senior", I have to point out that in order to "hate" TKD, you gotta think about it.
I've learned not to think about it.
Perhaps that will serve you better than over-exciting yourself about something that's kinda "like fly-sh1t" ("It's everywhere!")



Hapkido (the handlebar moustaches of the instructors and comments on how techniques are too deadly to do without supervision are a warning)....

I dunno, an occasional visit to a Hapkido school can be "good, clean fun".... especially when the instructor (who bills himself as a "National Champion") decides he's got to impress me by demonstrating his stuff on me.



a boxing gym called "shaolin boxing" run by a coach whose main boxing credential is "a black belt in kung fu" and a couple of karate schools with no web pages.

See that?
You already "know how to pick 'em"!
As for the karate schools without web pages.... that just means that you've actually got to go there to see what they're all about.

[SimonM]

precisely. And I will... and the judo schools. After all even judo is not immuned to mcdojoism.

[bakxierboxer]

precisely. And I will... and the judo schools. After all even judo is not immuned to mcdojoism.

???????
And here I was thinking that "the mat" was like a more active version of SR's "street".

[SimonM]

LOL!

I went to a judo school about 10 years back. It was a mcdojo. I left again quickly.

Shortly after I found my current kwoon.

[golden arhat]

Your in London? Go to Ingersol, there is a whitecrane teacher who is excellent. He's a TCM doctor by trade and a researcher. He takes very few students, including some MMA guys. He gives out master level stuff and breaks it down in such a way as to make it simple. Tell him I recomended that you train with him. Last I checked he was doing combat seminars. He's big on health and teaching you how to be healthy. He and I take a similar approach in working with the body's endocrine system to produce superior fighters.
5194259897
www.whitecranemedicine.com







are you talking to me ?

cos i'm pretty sure it says i live in manchester not london


anyway
i'l pass on learning white crane as its abiout like 250 miles to london
and i think i'm probably fine learning what i'm learning atm

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL!

I went to a judo school about 10 years back. It was a mcdojo. I left again quickly.

Shortly after I found my current kwoon.

How can Judo be a "mcdojo" ?

[KC Elbows]

How can Judo be a "mcdojo" ?

Just add humans?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just add humans?

LOL !
Good point.

[SimonM]

are you talking to me ?

cos i'm pretty sure it says i live in manchester not london


anyway
i'l pass on learning white crane as its abiout like 250 miles to london
and i think i'm probably fine learning what i'm learning atm

The other London, the one in Ontario. Golden Arhat was talking to me.