Guangzhou Bak Mei and Hong Kong Bak Mei?

[5thBrother]

Hey guys,

what are the Stylist, Philosophical and Thoretical differences bewteen Guangzhou Bak Mei and Hong Kong Bak Mei? If any?

Are they same forms, skills, manner of execution etc bewteen the too branches?

anything distingushing or special bewteen the two?

what are the differences and / or similarities?

or maybe they are exactly the same thing?

Thanks :)

[Wong Ying Home]

You might want to try and contact SiFu Dave Steven who is from London, I am pretty sure he is Hong Kong based Bak Mei, but is currently in GuangZhuo researching some Bak Mei as well

[5thBrother]

Thanks for the info :)

[Yum Cha]

Gee, how disappointing, I've been waiting to hear what people think the differences are, but not much to be said.

Pak Mei as we know it today started in Guangzhou with Cheung Lai Cheun, and at the end of WWII, as part of the flight from the Red Guard, many Chinese fled to Hong Kong, including many kung fu masters, including Cheung Lai Cheun and many of his students. I know of a notable Student that went to Vietnam as well. Another went to South America, I believe. I'm told Malaysia too. And of course, a number went to Taiwan as they were fighting on that side at the time.

Sometime later, CLC and cohorts re-established Pak Mei in Hong Kong (or Kowloon, not sure exactly, same diff) but being well over 60, the next generation really took the reins.

Not being part of HK Pak Mei, its not appropriate to really say any more than that about them.

Back in Guangzhou, those that remained stepped up and kept the art alive. Being a "forbidden old way", they had to keep it quiet, and they dissolved into the darkness. Fortunately, Guangzhou is one of the toughest cities in China, and there is lots of darkness to dissolve into. One of CLC's students also started a branch in Futsan as well.

I know my SiGung was imprisoned by the Red Guard for 8 years. They couldn't really go public until the late 70's.

Mind you, this is historical, not stylistic. And just an overview of the lineages, which have now spread around the world.

Also, I am not addressing all the fabricated Pak Mei lineages coming from some American shonks.

So, I think its fair to say, Gunagzhou Pak Mei is a little less formal than HK.
Its certainly less commercial than HK.
I think you would probably find it impossible to actually locate Guangzhou Pak Mei if you were there, lets not forget, it is still a closed style.

VERY superficially speaking:

They have the same core forms.
They have different forms, notably those created by successive generations within their own lineages.
They have the same core principles, and they have stylistic differences.
The have better and worse within each branch.

If you know pak mei, you can recognise it in others. If you don't know it yourself, its impossible to tell good from bad, but its very entertaining to watch people try.

[5thBrother]

Thanks Yum Cha, very interesting and educational :)

[Olaf]

Also in HK there are different 'flavours' of pak mei. One of them is linked to the one in South America. (I assume you are talking about Lee Sai Kung that went there). I found these people very open and non commercial. I don't have any experience with the guanzhou pak mei so i can't add anything to that part of the discussion.

[cranky old man]

yum cha haveing a day off havent heard from you in awhile. oh theres two groupes in h.k. one is the ones you refer to and the others from my ci gung anf clc who are still not open . when ng nam ging died the younger mostly wanted to make money and went out on there own . the remainder are older teachers still use our old name as far as l know. it was in ko2wloon city the set up as a closed door . they didnt need to go commercial as the president then was wealthy or in business.

[Yum Cha]

Hey there my friend. Any good news on the rally car front?

Do you know anything about the Kumuntong (SP?), that being the Nationalist army of Chang Kai Check? I believe many in his officers corp were Pak Mei Pai as well, wondering if that had anything to do with Wam Po military academy.

[cranky old man]

that is correct theres still quite a few in hk and that are ex military. also a lot of the police in h.k. are pak mei . when my student went to the first big dinner he was taken around to little clubs to meet teachers from nam gings time. he said these guys knew how to fight they were tough old guys . no politics, signs out front or dinners ect just practice and teach their disciples.

[cranky old man]

we are still working on the supra replacing the rear cvs . theres a rally at the end of this monthin the rockies . but its been raining and cold for awhile now.

[Yum Cha]

Just beginning to get nice here. Not running the Renault?

[HardWork8]

Also in HK there are different 'flavours' of pak mei. One of them is linked to the one in South America. (I assume you are talking about Lee Sai Kung that went there). I found these people very open and non commercial. I don't have any experience with the guanzhou pak mei so i can't add anything to that part of the discussion.

Hello Olaf,

Would you happen to know where in South America one can find Pak Mei training?

[Olaf]

I'm not sure if they still teach in Surinam. I have heard of a pak mei club in Argentina but I don't know if they are good.

[Fung Ngan]

HardWork8,

The school at the Kong Ngi Tong Sang Society in Surinam is closed. A link to
the Pak Mei school in Argentina you can find on our site at the “links”. They
are from the Ha Hon Hung (Xia Hangxiong) lineage of Fatshan Pak Mei.

Fung Ngan
www.pakmeipai.nl

[Yum Cha]

HardWork8,

The school at the Kong Ngi Tong Sang Society in Surinam is closed. A link to
the Pak Mei school in Argentina you can find on our site at the “links”. They
are from the Ha Hon Hung (Xia Hangxiong) lineage of Fatshan Pak Mei.

Fung Ngan
www.pakmeipai.nl

Please correct me if I'm wrong (however I think not...)

Ha Hon Hung started in Guangzhou, as an early student of Cheung Lai Cheun, amongst the initial lot.

HHH left CLC and learned more from another teacher. The 'soft" forms of Yau Kung Mun.

HHH moved to HK at the end of the war and became Yau Kung Mun to avoid conflict with CLC and his Sons.

I believe much of what is called Futsan Pak Mei is from a student of HHH.

[Steeeve]

simple

HK pak mei is a off shoot of the dragon style lung ying .....the guandzhou have more similiraties with the southern mantis (chow gar)...Who Knows ?????

Steeeve

[5thBrother]

"..... the guandzhou have more similiraties with the southern mantis (chow gar)"

if that is the case, thats interesting and very interested to hear more about this please, similarities and relationship with chow gar lam tong long.

Thanks!

[Yum Cha]

simple

HK pak mei is a off shoot of the dragon style lung ying .....the guandzhou have more similiraties with the southern mantis (chow gar)...Who Knows ?????

Steeeve


Sorry Steeve, not accurate.

[Steeeve]

Ok

Sup luk dung of the lung ying

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2BZ5E9Iqxpo

here jik bo of CLC Pak mei or HK

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ccUjuaGTllQ

here futshan pak mei

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9EHO6rWCVTM


well nothing to do with southern mantis.....chow gar or jook lum
but very different of the Hk Pak mei....

here chow gar

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=h4cZsHGGy_E&feature=related

[Yum Cha]

More broadly speaking, Loong Ying, Pak Mei and Southern Praying Mantis form a cluster, possibly including mok gar, of 'cousin' styles.

That '3 step' practice routing is often cited as one of the common threads, and there was a thread about the skills coming from Southern White Crane in preceding generations, but that's the only commonality.

[Steeeve]

YUm YOU are Right Bro The Hakka

YUM YUM ;)

Steeeve

[Fung Ngan]

Hi Yum Cha,

Yes, you are right. Most branches of Futshan (佛山) Pak Mei are from student(s) of Ha Hon Hung (夏汉雄) like Qiu Taisheng (仇太生) who taught Qiu Wu (仇乌) and Liu Shaoliang (刘少良). Liu ShaoLiang’s son Liu Weiji (刘伟基) runs now the school "Liu Shaoliang the memorial hall”( 刘少良纪念馆) where Pak Mei is taught.

Although Ha Hon hung is now better know for his Yau Kung Mun, he has been teaching Pak Mei for a long time. He was a very accomplished martial artist that got a hight degree in martial arts at the Guangdong fine martial sports club (广东精武体育会). There are several branches of Pak Mei that trace back to Ha Hon Hung. Like the branch of the book Pak Mei of ZhiZui Wong. Ha Hon Hung had a large school in Guangzhou like the in 1924 established school “Pearl River Guo Shu society, Ha Hon Hung sports club” (珠江国术社、夏汉雄体育会) and so not that strange had he had many students.

His Yau Kung Mun was as far as I know mainly taught after is move to HK.....Didn’t know that was to avoid conflict, thought they in HK just liked more Yau Kung Mun ;)

[holymantis]

What Lineage in Pak Mei was H.B.Un the author.
regards Holymantis:D

[Fung Ngan]

“Ho Ban Un” was a student of Cheung Lai Chun. He lived for a while in the UK and did some teaching there. And of course wrote the most well-known Pak Mei book.

You can find him in the Pak Mei lineage chart at:
http://www.pakmei.org/table.htm
(green part in Chinese 阮浩斌 17th from top)
Cantonese : (Jy)un Hou Ban
Pinyin : Ruan Hao Bin

[holymantis]

Hi Fung Ngan,
Thank you for your replie.
will take a look there.
regards roy:cool:

[Lai See]

“Ho Ban Un” was a student of Cheung Lai Chun. He lived for a while in the UK and did some teaching there. And of course wrote the most well-known Pak Mei book.

You can find him in the Pak Mei lineage chart at:
http://www.pakmei.org/table.htm
(green part in Chinese 阮浩斌 17th from top)
Cantonese : (Jy)un Hou Ban
Pinyin : Ruan Hao Bin


I can't seem to see the link you have kindly provided on my computer. Are there any of Un Ho Bun's students shown on the chart?
Thank you in advance.

[Fung Ngan]

Lai See,

阮浩斌 Un Hou Ban (Pinyin Ruan Haobin)

His students from lineage chart:
黃煌保 Wong Wong Bou (pinyin Huang Huangbao)
巫房生 Mou Fong Sang (pinyin Wu Fangsheng)
巫仕強 Mou Si Koeng (pinyin Wu Shiqiang)
巫冠群 Mou Gun Kwan (pinyin Wu Guan Gun)
巫冠雄 Mou Gun Hung (pinyin Wu Guanxiong)
巫冠揚 Mou Gun Yang (pinyin Wu Guanyang)
巫煌軒 Mou Wong Hin (pinyin Wu Huangxuan)
巫玉生 Mou Juk Sang (pinyin Wu Yusheng)

Hope it helps.

www.pakmeipai.nl

[Lai See]

This is very kind of you, thank you again.

I wonder how this site recognises members of the lines? Is it by submission and consequent acceptance and addition or not,. It is most interesting nonetheless.
Sorry to trouble you.

By your attached website, I shall say 'proost'!

[Yum Cha]

I think they do it by both submission and their own reckoning.

For example, our lineage is attached to the Har Hon Hong. Har was Sigungs SiHing, but sigung studied with both CLC and Lam Yu Gwai in the earliest days of the Pak Mei Pai, granted, he was a young fellow.

Originally, it was published as such, but somewhere along the line, they slipped in Har Hon Hong. I have often wondered what the reason was.

Also, there are now two different associations for Pak Mei, perhaps 3. Each represents its own membership in the manner it prefers as well, and I'm not sure they all agree.

Nevertheless, it is a valiant attempt to make order from chaos, and to recognise and organise the Pai into a coherent structure. The effort those guys are putting into it, considering the widespread nature of the membership is a blessing to the style and the memory of Grand Master CLC.

[Lai See]

You are indeed correct. It is without doubt a marvellous and most interesting chart albeit a slightly confusing one!

I do enjoy your signature, it is most fitting!

[once ronin]

Unless you are a student or friends with multiple teacher it would be hard to compare good bak mei.

In Guangzhou a large Bak Mei school is taught by Siu Ting Fun. His bak mei differs from most in Yuen Long Hong Kong. The difference in the kiu, Siu Ting fun stresses more the tendons on the kiu & woon ging vs in Yuen Long it is still the chum, tun,toe from the dan tian.

With Siu Ting Fun his ging explosion from the dan tien is alot faster into his kiu and woon.

[Yum Cha]

Unless you are a student or friends with multiple teacher it would be hard to compare good bak mei.

In Guangzhou a large Bak Mei school is taught by Siu Ting Fun. His bak mei differs from most in Yuen Long Hong Kong. The difference in the kiu, Siu Ting fun stresses more the tendons on the kiu & woon ging vs in Yuen Long it is still the chum, tun,toe from the dan tian.

With Siu Ting Fun his ging explosion from the dan tien is alot faster into his kiu and woon.

Ai-Yaa

Ronin knows something about Pak Mei! Some of my Sifu's old homeboys...

Sui Ting Fun was part of Hap Ging Do, there's a branch in Calgary, Lau Sifu, and he has a son in Canada somewhere too, I believe...

Sui Ting Fun himself has a lot of Dragon too.

Ever learned any?