Best Mantis San Shou Form

[MightyB]

Without arguing about whether or not forms are legitimate for training purposes... what mantis form or forms do you think are most beneficial for gloved San Shou training?

I'm thinking that the 7* version of Siu Fan Che is probably the best for 7* practitioners. It focuses on power strikes, has the short compact straight punch combinations, isn't overly complicated, and translates well to gloved hands.

What are your thoughts?

(Thread inspired by the new official San Shou form discussed in KFM)

[TaichiMantis]

There are moves in bung bo that I've used in fights...ok, it was point sparring, but still...wasn't consciously thinking about them, just did 'em.

I think you would enjoy the breakdown of this form done by my kung fu uncle, Randy Choy. He knows the 7* version but mainly focuses on the TCPM version. In the first article (http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy6.html)he points out moves that convey the 12 principles in mantis, plus six more. In the second article (http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy7.html) he points out different types of strikes, rules of chuan and what positions they are found.

:cool:

[Oso]

two problems w/ almost any form:

backfist/beng

hammer/pi

backfist is useless w/ boxing gloves unless you can actually prompt your opponent to bridge off of it in which case you could try to seal/feng and drive in

most targets of the hammer (head, neck, collarbone) you can not strike ( i think, could be wrong here) with the chopping arm/fist...plus it's just not as strong a punch with the glove either.

so, change the beng to a jab and you can then work many combos in from the sets I know and if you use the chopping movement to clear the arms and move in for throwing then you can use all the cleaving actions


though, now that I think about it beng and pi are really the same just with the arm rotating on opposite sides of the body...so, the snappy back fist is that you see often is not really beng...but still useless w/ gloves and you still can't strike the head/neck area w/ a good beng...it would have to be with just the glove and only to the side of the head...hmmm....rethinking some things....

Edit: ok, the above post should just be taken as me thinking out loud...

[Redfish]

Disclaimer: not a teacher or master etc

I think if you want to fight gloved sanda or any variation on sports fighting/mma ... the best thing to train would be - Sanda, at a Sanda school or Muay Thai or Jujistsu etc. A good boxing coach will do wonders for your gloved technique for sure.

Oh, this is not a comment on the usefulness of forms. They are all a useful part of a complete training program. Also, I'm assuming the original post means closed finger gloves.

Apologies if this is 'hijacking' or off-topic. If so, ignore.

[MightyB]

Disclaimer: not a teacher or master etc

I think if you want to fight gloved sanda or any variation on sports fighting/mma ... the best thing to train would be - Sanda, at a Sanda school or Muay Thai or Jujistsu etc. A good boxing coach will do wonders for your gloved technique for sure.

Oh, this is not a comment on the usefulness of forms. They are all a useful part of a complete training program. Also, I'm assuming the original post means closed finger gloves.

Apologies if this is 'hijacking' or off-topic. If so, ignore.


Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh----- go back to myspace, I'm so sick and tired of armchair quarterbacks reposting crap that posters who've never stepped foot in a san shou ring posted on the main forum. I don't care how many people you've coached or how much boxing you've watched on Showtime--- nothing NOTHING compares to actually feeling the sting of leather on your own face to know what San Shou is really about.

Ok- read KFM. See that there's a compulsary Sanshou form that's now being required in China for beginning fighters. It's short and sweet. Look at the body of forms in Mantis. Is there a form that you see in mantis that could also be used in a similar fashion? This is a thought exercise for people who actually know and study Mantis and have half a brain. It's supposed to be a fun post that's actually about mantis.

[monkeyfoot]

We had a form in our curriculem called Jeet Kuen (not to be confused with Lan Jie Quan). It was a standard Chin Woo form but seemed quite relevent for Sanda/gloved fighting - lots of straight punches, front kicks etc

but yea other than that, dai fan chie sounds like a good one

[Redfish]

:)

Steady on, Mighty B.

I did hint apologetically that my post may be off topic etc and to please ignore if so. I don't look at the other forums much.

[MightyB]

Why I rant about the san shou and MMA talk when we are trying to talk about kung fu-

Coaching without fighting is like trying to explain f**king when you've only watched a porno.

You can learn the fundamentals through classes- books- and DVDs. Things like the John Brown stuff from Ringside, the San Shou stuff through martialartsmart, Benny the Jet's books and tapes. Heck- the ringside stuff even covers cuts and cornering... but you can't teach the stuff that you can only learn from experience--

--the stuff that goes on in a fighter's head and in their body in the months, weeks, hours, and minutes that lead up to a fight. Once you agree to fight- you know the date and the time of the fight. It sticks with you. It's always there. An experienced fighter/coach knows how to work a new fighter through that stress. They also can gauge where a young fighter is at mentally in training and can adjust accordingly. There's just so much that's not in the books- anticipation is worse than the fight- the day of the fight is the worst day. Because the fights are usually so late- it becomes very important to know how to set a proper routine for your fighter (before the day of the fight) that will get them to the fight. How and when to eat- how and when to warm up - stress management -- these all have to be in that routine and they have to be practiced. That's the good stuff that fighters know about. There's a lot more...

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Mighty,
Nice quote, where is it from?

[MightyB]

that's vintage B- The F'n one is actually a variation of the "F'n for chastity" line used to describe military actions.

Nope- I tried to be a san shou fighter in my youth- I wasn't very good at it- but I learned a lot from the experience. Those non-fighting things I wrote about were the things that in retrospect I needed to know. You can't imagine the anticipation anxiety before a full-contact fight without actually experiencing it. I've done solo sports like track and field, and you do experience similar anxiety- but it's nothing like knowing that you have to fight another skilled person at a pre-set time. Shuai Jiao like Judo also has that same anxiety to a certain degree.

----

Allright- enough derailment already- lets get back to topic.

So I liked 7*'s Su Fan Che for an equivalent of a basic gloved san shou form. Jeet Kune would be good- along those same lines- Chop Chuy- except Chop Chuy has a couple of arm drag motions that wouldn't work with gloves.

What else?

[Three Harmonies]

Jesus! Twice I agree with Redfish!!!!
I saw the article you speak of, and it is embarrassing! Forms teach certain aspects...sure. But if you are doing San Shou your form is...shadow boxing!! That is your "form". Everything is in it. No wasted bull**** moves. Just technique, and focusing on doing it proper!

Cheers
Jake

[MightyB]

Jesus! Twice I agree with Redfish!!!!
I saw the article you speak of, and it is embarrassing! Forms teach certain aspects...sure. But if you are doing San Shou your form is...shadow boxing!! That is your "form". Everything is in it. No wasted bull**** moves. Just technique, and focusing on doing it proper!

Cheers
Jake

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=789

Sanshou Jichu Taolu
The Compulsory Basic Routine for Sanshou Beginners
By Emilio Alpanseque

[Three Harmonies]

Yes, I know the article. One of the authors in it may sound familiar;):D